InesQor:

That's the main thing that ruined the LaHaye and Jenkins' "Left Behind" Series. I read all the volumes. Story was fun, but sincerely wrong.

^^I don't know about sincere but most definitely wrong and misleading. A lot of Christians views on the end times is now colored by the Left Behind series. Talk about brainwashing.
To tell you the truth; I sorta believed the basic premise before reading the books, but the warning flags for me were supposed Christians taking up arms and killing and maiming others in a fight against the Antichrist. It didn't seem like something a true follower of Christ would do. Another was the teaching that a Christian could take the mark of the beast and still remain a Christian!

The defense against errors remains the Bible and nothing else but the Bible. The current rapture theories actually have their origin in Jesuit Roman Catholic writings. I wonder how many Christians know this?

@InesQor

InesQor:

For real, its the same delusion that makes people preach false gospels of prosperity,

The gospel is an all round prosperity. Or is it poverty that Jesus brought for you. How can you can you call what Jesus died for false?

2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Joagbaje:

@InesQor
The gospel is an all round prosperity. Or is it poverty that Jesus brought for you. How can you call what Jesus died for false?

2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.


Prosperity is an all-round experience. It goes beyond money my friend.

seyibrown:

Joagbaje,

Have you finished the analysis?

Not really ,it's broad and trying to cut is short is getting my communication impeded. Maybe we have a thread on it next week

Ohhhhhhh no. I think i'll agree with Jo on the rapture being pre-great tribulation. Any which way sha, prepare to meet the Lord your God y'all.

Prosperity really its an all round experience, it is often erronously figured from the perspective of money which even scripturally is wrong. The book of 3 John vs 2 "Beloved, l wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth" .
The scripture above successfully reveals to us the intent of God as regards to the properity of His children and the nature of this prosperity-the properity of the soul is in every way a priority as the prosperity of the body.
Health is regarded as a form of prosperity and the shows us how that God is very much interested in our prosperity in that regard.

inedi:

Prosperity really its an all round experience, it is often erronously figured from the perspective of money which even scripturally is wrong. The book of 3 John vs 2 "Beloved, l wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth" .
The scripture above successfully reveals to us the intent of God as regards to the properity of His children and the nature of this prosperity-the properity of the soul is in every way a priority as the prosperity of the body.
Health is regarded as a form of prosperity and the shows us how that God is very much interested in our prosperity in that regard.

Nah, the scripture is just a greeting and well wishes from John to Gaius; it is only being misused by the prosperity "gospel" adherents.

^^^^^^ gbam!!!!!! yes!!!!!

Graphic example from NIV rendering of same III John 2

Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well.

Joagbaje:

Not really ,it's broad and trying to cut is short is getting my communication impeded. Maybe we have a thread on it next week

Whenever you are ready then. Please post a pointer to the 'new thread' on this one. Tx!

@aletheia

aletheia:

^^I don't know about sincere but most definitely wrong and misleading. A lot of Christians views on the end times is now colored by the Left Behind series. Talk about brainwashing.
To tell you the truth; I sorta believed the basic premise before reading the books, but the warning flags for me were supposed Christians taking up arms and killing and maiming others in a fight against the Antichrist. It didn't seem like something a true follower of Christ would do. Another was the teaching that a Christian could take the mark of the beast and still remain a Christian!

The defense against errors remains the Bible and nothing else but the Bible. The current rapture theories actually have their origin in Jesuit Roman Catholic writings. I wonder how many Christians know this?

Dont mind me, I was using the word "sincere" in sarcasm, the way we talk of "an entirely sincere and cruel tyrant". i.e "Characterized by a firm and humourless belief in the validity of your opinions" Lol.

Yes o! That Left Behind series has coloured most peoples' views on rapture and the tribulation! And yes, those points you raised are serious faux pas in the entire scheme: Christians taking the mark, etc.

Jesuit Roman Catholic writings? I am not surprised, but I didnt know. (now I expect Chukwudi to show up in defense, LOL)

---

@Joagbaje: I wont even bother arguing that with you. The truth speaks for itself.

Enigma:

Graphic example from NIV rendering of same III John 2

Abi now, simple prayer turned to somfink else. *sigh*

InesQor:

Yes o! That Left Behind series has coloured most peoples' views on rapture and the tribulation! And yes, those points you raised are serious faux pas in the entire scheme: Christians taking the mark, etc.

Jesuit Roman Catholic writings? I am not surprised, but I didnt know. (now I expect Chukwudi to show up in defense, LOL)

FUTURISM

#1. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would:

* Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
* Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
* Abolish the Christian religion.
* Deny Jesus Christ.
* Be received by the Jews.
* Pretend to be God.
* Kill the two witnesses of God.
* Conquer the world.

So, according to Ribera, the 1260 days and 42 months and 3 1/2 times of prophecy were not 1260 years, but a literal 3 1/2 years, and therefore none of the book of Revelation had any application to the middle ages or the papacy, but to the future, to a period immediately prior to the second coming, hence the name Futurism. The 1602 edition of his commentary is available online here

#2. Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesías en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty", under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben-Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the Antichrist was still off in the future.
Lacunza asserts that Antichrist would appear near the end of time:

That there shall be an Antichrist; that he shall be revealed, and publicly declared, towards the last times; and that he shall commit in the world the
greatest evils, making formal war against Christ, and all that pertains to him; —these are three certain things, of which no Christian can doubt.
-- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 195.

#3. Edward Irving (1792-1834), a Scottish Presbyterian and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, translated Lacunza's work from Spanish into English in a book titled The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty with a Preliminary Discourse, published in London in 1827 by L.B. Seeley & Sons, which included Irving's own lengthy preface.

#4. Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old Scottish girl, and member of Edward Irving's congregation, had visions in early 1830 that included a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. She informed Irving of her visions by letter. Irving then attended the prophecy conferences that began in Dublin Ireland in 1830 at Powerscourt Castle, where he promoted both Futurism and a Secret Rapture.

#5. John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a Church of Ireland clergyman, later with the Plymouth Brethren, also promoted Futurism and a secret rapture. Darby attended the series of meetings on Bible Prophecy that began in 1830 at Powerscourt, Ireland, and at these conferences Darby apparently learned about the secret rapture as revealed by vision to Margaret McDonald, and promoted by Edward Irving, and he soon visited Margaret MacDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Darby later visited America several times between 1859 and 1874, where his Futurist theology was readily accepted.

#6. Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921), greatly influenced by the writings of J. N. Darby, incorporated Futurism in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible. First published by Oxford University Press in 1909, one million copies were printed by 1930. The Scofield Bible was instrumental in firmly establishing the Jesuit inspired Futurist interpretation in the Protestant Bible schools of the United States in the 20th century.

What Christians that hold to the pre-trib view pointedly ignore is that 2 Thessalonians was written to counter the teaching gaining currency in the Thessalonian Church that a secret rapture had occurred:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [2 Thessalonians 2:1-3]

Christ's return shall be visible and audible. Jesus Himself had already warned us:

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Matthew 24:26-27]

Now notice the sequence of events:
#1. Tribulation involving the elect:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. [Matthew 24:21-22]
^^I understand this to be a short intense period of tribulation which is shortened for the sake of the elect.

#2. Following the tribulation comes astronomical portents.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Matthew 24:29]

#3. Then appears the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Matthew 24:30]
^^Notice the twofold event: the Sign of the Son of Man. What it is we don't yet know, but I am sure that when it appears, the world will know it. Then they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. If this was a secret catching up; then why would the nations and tribes of the earth see? This is further reaffirmed by the testimony of the angels in Acts 1. The disciples saw Jesus ascend bodily into heaven borne up by the clouds. They said in like manner would he return.

#4. When the Son of Man appears He gathers His elect.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and [b]they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Matthew 24:31][/b]

Question: If the elect have already been raptured before the tribulation of vs 21-22; then who are the elect that are gathered in vs 31?

The phrase "the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven" directs us to Daniel 7 where we see that that event marks the end of the dominion of man:
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. [Daniel 7:13-14]

aletheia:

FUTURISM

#1. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would:

    * Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
    * Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
    * Abolish the Christian religion.
    * Deny Jesus Christ.
    * Be received by the Jews.
    * Pretend to be God.
    * Kill the two witnesses of God.
    * Conquer the world.

So, according to Ribera, the 1260 days and 42 months and 3 1/2 times of prophecy were not 1260 years, but a literal 3 1/2 years, and therefore none of the book of Revelation had any application to the middle ages or the papacy, but to the future, to a period immediately prior to the second coming, hence the name Futurism. The 1602 edition of his commentary is available online here

#2. Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesías en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty", under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben-Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the Antichrist was still off in the future.
Lacunza asserts that Antichrist would appear near the end of time:

    That there shall be an Antichrist; that he shall be revealed, and publicly declared, towards the last times; and that he shall commit in the world the 
    greatest evils, making formal war against Christ, and all that pertains to him; —these are three certain things, of which no Christian can doubt.
    -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III,  pg. 195.

#3. Edward Irving (1792-1834), a Scottish Presbyterian and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, translated Lacunza's work from Spanish into English in a book titled The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty with a Preliminary Discourse, published in London in 1827 by L.B. Seeley & Sons, which included Irving's own lengthy preface.

#4. Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old Scottish girl, and member of Edward Irving's congregation, had visions in early 1830 that included a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. She informed Irving of her visions by letter. Irving then attended the prophecy conferences that began in Dublin Ireland in 1830 at Powerscourt Castle, where he promoted both Futurism and a Secret Rapture.

#5. John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a Church of Ireland clergyman, later with the Plymouth Brethren, also promoted Futurism and a secret rapture. Darby attended the series of meetings on Bible Prophecy that began in 1830 at Powerscourt, Ireland, and at these conferences Darby apparently learned about the secret rapture as revealed by vision to Margaret McDonald, and promoted by Edward Irving, and he soon visited Margaret MacDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Darby later visited America several times between 1859 and 1874, where his Futurist theology was readily accepted.

#6. Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921), greatly influenced by the writings of J. N. Darby, incorporated Futurism in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible. First published by Oxford University Press in 1909, one million copies were printed by 1930. The Scofield Bible was instrumental in firmly establishing the Jesuit inspired Futurist interpretation in the Protestant Bible schools of the United States in the 20th century.

What Christians that hold to the pre-trib view pointedly ignore is that 2 Thessalonians was written to counter the teaching gaining currency in the Thessalonian Church that a secret rapture had occurred:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [2 Thessalonians 2:1-3]

Christ's return shall be visible and audible. Jesus Himself had already warned us:

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Matthew 24:26-27]

Now notice the sequence of events:
#1. Tribulation involving the elect:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. [Matthew 24:21-22]
^^I understand this to be a short intense period of tribulation which is shortened for the sake of the elect.

#2. Following the tribulation comes astronomical portents.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Matthew 24:29]

#3. Then appears the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Matthew 24:30]
^^Notice the twofold event: the Sign of the Son of Man. What it is we don't yet know, but I am sure that when it appears, the world will know it. Then they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. If this was a secret catching up; then why would the nations and tribes of the earth see? This is further reaffirmed by the testimony of the angels in Acts 1. The disciples saw Jesus ascend bodily into heaven borne up by the clouds. They said in like manner would he return.

#4. When the Son of Man appears He gathers His elect.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and [b]they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Matthew 24:31][/b]

Question: If the elect have already been raptured before the tribulation of vs 21-22; then who are the elect that are gathered in vs 31?

The phrase "the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven" directs us to Daniel 7 where we see that that event marks the end of the dominion of man:
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. [Daniel 7:13-14]

Thanks for the above, aletheia. Matthew 24:21-31 clearly describes the sequence, and its funny that people will contrive other meanings into it all. God bless you. 

Enigma:

Nah, the scripture is just a greeting and well wishes from John to Gaius; it is only being misused by the prosperity "gospel" adherents.

you cant say that because was a man of God speaking the mind of God concerning us not just a greeting to Gaius as you may think, because the says all scripture is given for our learning, etc. in Genesis 39:3 " And his master saw that the Lord was with him, and that the lord made all that he did to prosper in his hand". verse 23 says "and the keeper of the prison looked not to any thing that was under his hand; because the Lord was with him, and that which he did, the Lord made it to prosper" the man Joseph prospered in all he doings, these could only be so because of his inner quality, who is in the inside, his state of being was that of prosperity, that was why it could manifest in his did or resposibility. thank you.

inedi:

you cant say that because was a man of God speaking the mind of God concerning us not just a greeting to Gaius as you may think, because the says all scripture is given for our learning, etc. in Genesis 39:3 " And his master saw that the Lord was with him, and that the lord made all that he did to prosper in his hand". verse 23 says "and the keeper of the prison looked not to any thing that was under his hand; because the Lord was with him, and that which he did, the Lord made it to prosper" the man Joseph prospered in all he doings, these could only be so because of his inner quality, who is in the inside, his state of being was that of prosperity, that was why it could manifest in his did or resposibility. thank you.

Oh dear. . .

The bible is our guiding book. All these logic from poster is just off track and holds no water.

@Petres:

You sef fear, ba? Na wonderment.

Zikky:
Hmmm. G. I. Jo Been trying to visualize a fight scene with you in an armored suit, sword in hand (or is it RPG?) chasing some baddies Assuming you do make to heaven, I think Christ should ensure an angel is given the task of monitoring your every move, just to ensure you don’t let in some of them sinners into Heaven via the back door (after collecting egunje in the form of tithes and offerings)

Lol
What I'm trying to visualise is Hamas and those hapless Palestinians already castrated by Israeli mortals trying to stand up with their Iranian-made weapons to a Joagbaje-led interstellar battalion wielding heaven-made TAR-21 riffles.

MyJoe:

Lol
What I'm trying to visualise is Hamas and those hapless Palestinians already castrated by Israeli mortals trying to stand up with their Iranian-made weapons to a Joagbaje-led interstellar battalion wielding heaven-made TAR-21 riffles.

nuclearboy:

@Petres:

You sef fear, ba? Na wonderment.

My bros. . in fact enh. . .

Makes me wonder . . . the depths of biblical ignorance our so called MOGs have been operating in to have maintained their doctrine of good health for the believer based on this verse

I wish I have you people's time today.

o boy, i dey fear ooooo

@altheia,

I didn't want to comment on your post earlier because I don't have the time at the moment to give it the attention that it's due. Because I need to double check on some scriptures for references. But I just feel I should post this for now.

aletheia:

What Christians that hold to the pre-trib view pointedly ignore is that 2 Thessalonians was written to counter the teaching gaining currency in the Thessalonian Church that a secret rapture had occurred:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [2 Thessalonians 2:1-3]

Paul was merely giving a run down summary here.What you miss out here. Is the remaining part which put more detail as I quoted in my earlier post.
Verse 6 explains it all that the church has to be taken out of the way first before the Antichrist is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
6 And now you know what is restraining him[ from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested( revealed) in his own[ appointed] time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness( that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world,[ but it is] restrained only until a he who restrains is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one( the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming. 

This COMING is judgement on the day of the lord after the 7year tribulation.Dan 9 says he will broker peace accord for 7 years and in the middle of the 7years he will reveal his true nature. And begins to persecute the saints. At the end of the 7years of tribulation Jesus and his saints will come down and destroy the Antichrist.

Thessalonians 2: 8 
And then the lawless one( the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming 

At the rapture Jesus will not come down. It will happen within a second.  When this happenens Jesus will not leave he will defeat the enemy and establish his kingdom on the earth for the millennia reign on the earth. So what need is a rapture at that time when Jesus himself will be on the earth? What will they go to heaven to do.

Christ's return shall be visible and audible. Jesus Himself had already warned us:

That is true, but that second coming is not the rapture of the church. The second coming will be to execute judgement. 

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Matthew 24:26-27]

This is dealing with mid tribulation crises. When the Antichrist begins his offensive against the Jews . When they realise that he is a wrong christ. They will be looking out for their messiah, false christs will show up but they will lead them into further destruction. Until the 7th year when they will realise that the messiah had come and they will  cry to him as a nation , he will then come down and end the evil system  

Now notice the sequence of events:
#1. Tribulation involving the elect:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. [Matthew 24:21-22]
^^I understand this to be a short intense period of tribulation which is shortened for the sake of the elect.

The elect is  not the church but the sealed 144,000 Jews that will be ruptured during the tribulation. There are seven major raptures in the bible . After the church rapture, when the great tribulation begins God will ore serve for himself 144,000 Jews that should not be destroyed. They will be raptured after. 

#2. Following the tribulation comes astronomical portents.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Matthew 24:29]

#3. Then appears the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Matthew 24:30]
^^Notice the twofold event: the Sign of the Son of Man. What it is we don't yet know, but I am sure that when it appears, the world will know it. Then they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. If this was a secret catching up; then why would the nations and tribes of the earth see? This is further reaffirmed by the testimony of the angels in Acts 1. The disciples saw Jesus ascend bodily into heaven borne up by the clouds. They said in like manner would he return.

This is not the rapture of the church, but his coming to execute judgement on the earth.

#4. When the Son of Man appears He gathers His elect.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and [b]they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Matthew 24:31][/b]

Question: If the elect have already been raptured before the tribulation of vs 21-22; then who are the elect that are gathered in vs 31?

This "His elect are Jews" mat 24 was a jewish discussion. Dealing with the Jewish calendar for salvation. The times of the Gentiles was an interruption. From the perspective of that calendar in Daniel 9. 

The phrase "the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven" directs us to Daniel 7 where we see that that event marks the end of the dominion of man:
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. [Daniel 7:13-14]

This is the second coming. Our solar system will be in place at the rapture. But during the tribulation , the solar system will change,  sun darken etc.  But under our present solar system , the time zone cannot even afford people to witness a physical coming . But all eyes will see the second coming. So there will actually be 2 more raptures after the church .

Joagbaje:

So there will actually be 2 more raptures after the church . 

Shoo!!! As in, buy one get two free?

Jokes apart, almost everything you say, Joagbaje, I have heard before. But this is new. Care to explain?

Joagbaje:

So there will actually be 2 more raptures after the church . 

InesQor:

Jokes apart, almost everything you say, Joagbaje, I have heard before. But this is new. Care to explain?

I think he's referring to the two prophets in Revelation who were taken up to Heaven in sight of everyone. Jo's penchant for the absurd attention catching is becoming a hobby.

InesQor:

Quote from: Joagbaje on Today at 10:16:52 AM
So there will actually be 2 more raptures after the church . 

Jokes apart, almost everything you say, Joagbaje, I have heard before. But this is new.  Care to explain?

Image123:

I think he's referring to the two prophets in Revelation who were taken up to Heaven in sight of everyone. Jo's penchant for the absurd attention catching is becoming a hobby.

Yes the rapture of the two prophets and the rapture of the "MAN CHILD" Jewish tribulation saints also.

Image123:

I think he's referring to the two prophets in Revelation who were taken up to Heaven in sight of everyone. Jo's penchant for the absurd attention catching is becoming a hobby.

Kai I don lose touch with all this "rev" (revelation) attention-seeking tactics o! LOL

@Joagbaje:

Joagbaje:


Yes the rapture of the two prophets and the rapture of the tribulation saints that were raptured also.

I see. So I see you agree there were raptures before Jesus was born too. Enoch and Elijah 

Preaching this Sunday:
"I found something in the scriptures as I was studying in the midnight yesterday, and I said Wow! It's all in the Word!! Your eyes have to be opened! (speaks in tongues as the congregation anticipates the next words. Someone screams PREACH IT PASTOR!!!. ) Joagbaje continues 'Did you ever know that there was rapture, even before Christ was born? Ah! You need to read your Bibles! It's all in the Word!!'"

Mehn I don rusty with all this hype thing sha. . .   

@eyzhvntsn: YOU!

i agree more with Jo on this thread, though not every sentence, 'as is characteristic of him, he has done'. But we seem to be on the 'same inclination' especially on pre.tribulation rapture and on 'prosperity'. It is God's plan that it should be well with us, that well being includes finances, both in no way limited or margined/zoned to it.
Psalm 118v25 Save now, I beseech
thee, O Lord: O Lord, I
beseech thee, send now
prosperity.

InesQor:

@eyzhvntsn: YOU!

InesQor:

Kai I don lose touch with all this "rev" (revelation) attention-seeking tactics o! LOL

@Joagbaje:I see. So I see you agree there were raptures before Jesus was born too. Enoch and Elijah 

Preaching this Sunday:
"I found something in the scriptures as I was studying in the midnight yesterday, and I said Wow! It's all in the Word!! Your eyes have to be opened! (speaks in tongues as the congregation anticipates the next words. Someone screams PREACH IT PASTOR!!!. ) Joagbaje continues 'Did you ever know that there was rapture, even before Christ was born? Ah! You need to read your Bibles! It's all in the Word!!'"

Mehn I don rusty with all this hype thing sha. . .   

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Sunday go sweet oh, abi Joe?