Let's not mix 2 arguments or apply different contexts. According to Nateevs (paraphrasing), "DD and Lamps used to shine for themselves but Torres teamwork is better and maintains the shape better"

We now pass the baton to the Torres generation to show us that his teamwork can prompt the team to be the most creative team ever in Premierleague history. Simples!

We spend 50m pounds for a striker to come and "maintain the shape"?

I'm just an average fan, i want goals.
The more goals, the more wins.
The more wins, the more points.
The more points and the more trophies.

Therefore, tell Torres to give us goals. . .

He was bought to come and score goals.
Let the likes of Mata and Anelka, "maintain the shape"

We average fans don't give a fukk about shape.
We want goals and we want wins.

Torres or whatever he is called is a disgrace to strikers.

He is the most overrated piece of turd ever since Beckham quit football. Its only in the EPL that he is regarded, What has he achieved as a striker.?

Never been top goalscorer in any league in almost a decade as a pro soccer player.

For a striker to play ahead of Xavi and Iniesta and still put up such horrible numbers says a lot. If you put Demba Ba or yakubu ahead of Xavi and Iniesta you would see the results in numbers

The same ppl who supply Villa passes.

If your NT have to stick you to the bench to win the World cup then we shouldnt be mentioning your name in the commity of strikers maybe he should be in the class of Darius Vassel et al

What Drogba contributed to Chelsea aside the goalswas incredible.

Go watch Chelsea vs Bayern in 2005 where Drogba won every aerial duel and threw himself all over.

Fernando Torres? Maybe we can have a discussion when he becomes top scorer in any league

Imagine Didier Drogba Onze D Or winner, 2 time EPL golden boot winner is what you compare to Fernando Torres?

Who the phock is Fernando Torres in the league of strikers?

In DDs first two seasons, even with 16 goals per season, his teamwork was amazing.

I think you guys forgot the sheer amount of work that DD did in those 2 years. Infact, I started to hate DD after 2006 cos he no longer put in such amount of work.

You can't sugarcoat this even if sugar were the only other thing left in the world, 16 goals(in ALL competitions) per season BACK TO BACK for an out and out striker playing for the BACK TO BACK champions of England is a monumental disgrace!

Use your - BRAAAIIINNN!
Two seasons in seven years nigga? I can divide
That's one every let's say four, them other shits was poor
One was - MEHHH, the other was 2009/2010
That's a one hot season every seven year average
And that's so - LAAAAAAAME!
Switch up your style shit is garbage!

Lest we forget, this argument is about "teamwork". Can someone tell me that Torres ever helped his teammates better than DD helped his teammates in 04/05 and 05/06. FFS, the whole solidity of the team was based around having DD running like a madman upfront doing the work of two players. NEVER IN TORRES CAREER HAS HE PUT IN BETTER TEAMWORK THAN DD DID IN HIS FIRST 2 YEARS!

If the argument is about teamwork Torres still trounces DD. You seem unable to distinguish between TEAMWORK and WORK-RATE.

Drogba has the first-touch of a saboteur and the passing skills of a prom queen - these two flaws alone make him give the ball away cheaper than a bucket of spit. If they tracked unforced errors in footie like they do in tennis Drogba would be the undisputed king of the log, and you want to convince us such a player has better teamwork than Nando?

Higher technique generally translates to better teamwork, and Torres' technique blows DD out of the Atlantic.

Ibime:

Let's not mix 2 arguments or apply different contexts. According to Nateevs (paraphrasing), "DD and Lamps used to shine for themselves but Torres teamwork is better and maintains the shape better"

We now pass the baton to the Torres generation to show us that his teamwork can prompt the team to be the most creative team ever in Premierleague history. Simples!

In Torres' last five games lemme pick out off the top of my head a few key contribution he's made.
Pass to Luiz for Mata, for our first CL.
Pass to Luiz for the second CL goal.
Goal against United.
Goal against Swansea.

Watch Ramires' goal against Swansea and tell me how Torres did not make that goal possible.
His key pass to find Ashley in acres of space made sure Ashley's and Ramires' pace provided the goal.

That dude is the most talked about footballer on the planet. He cannot even listen to the radio for a few hours without hearing his own name. He's supposed to be out of form and cannot pass a ball to save his life yet he's already racked up 2 goals, 2 assists and 1 key pass. If it's possible to find stats of how many times DD and Torres will find a team mate, I think you will find mate that Torres shytes on DD every single minute.

DD's work rate is overrated dude, please. I am a Chelsea fan who doesn't watch our games from a stat point of view. I watch every single one of our games at least three times. I cannot tell you how many times I have spotted DD drop his shoulders or annoying raise them when he can chase and re-collect the ball. Go and speak to fans who go and watch games and let them tell how lazy Drog can be.



@you and BlueDiva

In a team where shape and movement is not of the essence, what you create is garbage. What you create is a team of individuals with a set-up built around the "good guys" - in this case, Lamps and DD. Go watch Arsenal and United and see how effective they can be without their key players. Do you know how many times, DD and Lamps went missing and we could not win games. That's garbage. That's not a team and you as a fan should be concerned about that. How did you feel when you had to explain to opposition fans that we could not win a game against a weak side because Drogba was not playing. What sort of team is that?


What AVB's tactics have brought is a system that does not rely on a target man and a goal scoring midfielder. For that reason, anybody can slot into it. It will take some time to perfect, it will take a lot of understanding on the players part but when they get it, it's longevity my friend. And longevity should be every fan's utmost desire. Way and above just someone who scores.

It's a system that works, it's a system that will get even not technical players like Ramires score goals because he will find himself in positions. Because it relies on movement, it relies on the shape. You cannot tell me AVB is wrong and you guys are right. Apart from Lamps age, it's already evident AVB can tell Lamps and DD don't fit the system. They will play less parts  in this season.


If Carllotti had remained, Malouda, Kalou, Lamps and DD would have played 90mins every game. AVB's been in only five mins and won't play the four of them. You are talking about stats, lemme give you more stats:-

Malouda 9, 15, 14. No of goals 08/09, 09/10, 10,11 seasons.  
Kalou 9, 11, 12, 12, 12 No of goals from 06/07 - 10/11 seasons.


According to you folks, these guys have to play based on those stats. I mean we all watch Malouda and Kalou for pete's sake. You think AVB doesn't read these stats? Malouda what? Give me Arda Turan any single day.

Ibime:

I think you guys forgot the sheer amount of work that DD did in those 2 years. Infact, I started to hate DD after 2006 cos he no longer put in such amount of work.

Cue the famously reetarded argument that DD had 'stopped running' hence he wasn't a good player any more.

nateevs:

You are directing this at a wrong person. I am not a statistician. I only do team statistics, I evaluate personal statistics only when it's not at the detriment of the team. I will not ignore 5 lost chances by a wasteful midfielder and then praise him for scoring two goals for himself. There's a point when stats take the back seat.

Aren't you flying off the handle here? How often can one player produce 5 assists/goals in one game? You're being unduly curmudgeonly with Ramires. Two goals in a single game by any player (especially a midfielder) is worthy of praise. Yes he may have areas to improve (DD at his peak still had the touch of a 100 year old grandma with a walking stick) but that shouldn't take away from the performance on the day.

What if Ramires continues to make the most awful passes yet scores 15 goals come end of season, you'll join the band wagon eh? You cannot expect me to eat up the "result matter" shitzo. I see more than that dude. I see longevity. I see depth in squad.

The real question is what is his job? What is the expectation? If it is to be the assist master (which it isn't) then we can scream about passes. If it's to be an energetic box to box player that harries the opposition and links up play occasionally, then we judge based on that.

In your mind, what is Ramires' role in that team?

If Ramires scores 15 goals in a season I am sure 99% of Chelski fans will tell you he has overachieved.

Hey man, you are attacking me rather than understanding me. I was not having a go at Ramires. I was having a go at Ibime. He cannot stand Ramires, yet the boy is effective. So that post was to spur his thinking wrt stats. If Ramires goes on to score 15 goals in the season yet continues "hiding from passes" and making awful passes, will Ibime be hailing him as the next best thing?

nateevs:

Hey man, you are attacking me rather than understanding me. I was not having a go at Ramires. I was having a go at Ibime. He cannot stand Ramires, yet the boy is effective. So that post was to spur his thinking wrt stats. If Ramires goes on to score 15 goals in the season yet continues "hiding from passes" and making awful passes, will Ibime be hailing him as the next best thing?

My bad then. I initially thought you were raising the bar unduly high for Ramires.

Football fans are ultimately subjective though, regardless of what certain players do they will be castigated for the smallest errors, while others can do no wrong.

After being inspired by Ritchboy's clear difference between "WORK RATE and TEAM WORK",  I took time to work on some stats - specifically pass rate. I took a sample season - 09/10 season. I chose this season because it was Drogba's most successful season and the season we played the best football with the most passes and goals, breaking all records in the Roman Era.

I then compared that same season with Torres and this is what I came out with.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After reviewing every single game, I came up with the total number of successful and unsuccessful passes made by each player in their respective teams and this is the data.

In the 09/10 season, Drogba made 763 passes. - Suc 430, Unsuc 333. 43% percent unsuccessful pass rate.
In the 09/10 season, Torres made 416 passes. - Suc 272, Unsuc 144. 34% percent unsuccessful pass rate.



It's very simple. Even though Drogba gets a lot of goals in attack, he is the prime reason we don't play well in attack. Drogba is 43% likely to not find a team mate when he has the ball. Based on the data sample, Torres is 10% more likely to find a team mate than Drogba is. This concludes that Torres is potentially a better team player than Drogba is.

Other factors to consider are:-

1. Chelsea had a much better midfield than Liverpool did.
2. Chelsea had much better cohesion than Liverpool did.
3. Chelsea had much better off field and on field stability than Liverpool.
4. Chelsea had Premier League winning form.



I have this data compiled in Excel Spreadsheet format for those who want it.

wierd to hear all this about drogba, i thot drogba was the second coming of pele for chelsea fans? na wah o, abi na anor person? the same didier? hmmn

There is nothing refreshing about what Nateevs typed there.

If Kalou and Malouda are so poor, then more Kudos to Lamps and DD for creating opportunities for them to be successful.

Now the silly excuse is that he doesn't like Lamps or DD in the team because without them we can't win. If we can't win without them, it just means the true quality of the team (Kalou, Malouda etc) shows when they're not on the pitch. These niggas carried us for 7 years competing for every title even whilst lacking the spark of the kind of wingers other teams take for granted. I wonder what these nukkas woulda won if supported by the likes of Nani, C Ronaldo etc that other teams take for granted. Now Nateevs is saying its DD and Lamps fault that the team struggle without them. I guess its Zidanes fault that France struggle without him or Rooneys fault that Utd struggle without him.

nateevs:


In the 09/10 season, Drogba made 763 passes. - Suc 430, Unsuc 333. 43% percent unsuccessful pass rate.
In the 09/10 season, Torres made 416 passes. - Suc 272, Unsuc 144. 34% percent unsuccessful pass rate.

Care to give us pass completion stats for all the other players in the side apart from Drogba? The other forwards and attacking midfielders would be useful as a start.

It would help us ascertain whether the below statement is simply a case of a confirmation bias (ask statisticians like Ibime for more info) or really a valid conclusion.

It's very simple. Even though Drogba gets a lot of goals in attack, he is the prime reason we don't play well in attack. Drogba is 43% likely to not find a team mate when he has the ball. Based on the data sample, Torres is 10% more likely to find a team mate than Drogba is. This concludes that Torres is potentially a better team player than Drogba is.

debosky:

Care to give us pass completion stats for all the other players in the side apart from Drogba? The other forwards and attacking midfielders would be useful as a start.

It would help us ascertain whether the below statement is simply a case of a confirmation bias (ask statisticians like Ibime for more info) or really a valid conclusion.

Okay. I will make some time and provide the stats. It will give us a definite answer. Give me some time as it takes quite a while to compile.

It can be a bad season for Chealsea, but it will never be a bad one for the sport betting series. www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-768568.0.html

Ibime:

Now Nateevs is saying its DD and Lamps fault that the team struggle without them. I guess its Zidanes fault that France struggle without him or Rooneys fault that Utd struggle without him.

@Ibime.
Ofcourse there is nothing refreshing. When it comes to upholding stats, you shy away. Face the stats staring you in the face dude. If it doesn't prove anything at all it shoots down your theories. You are going round in circles saying things I have not said. When I have the time, I will quote all the things you think I have said and I will challenge you to find quotes for them.

Firstly, please find quotes where I have made people believe this:-

Ibime:

Now Nateevs is saying its DD and Lamps fault that the team struggle without them.

If not, stick to facts and stop yarning opata.

I have this data compiled in Excel Spreadsheet format for those who want it.

Haba, is this some academic exercise?

Nateevs, please i would like to know 5 strikers who have played for Chelsea in the last 10 yrs you consider better than DD and why.

BlueDiva:

Haba, is this some academic exercise?
Nateevs, please i would like to know 5 strikers who have played for Chelsea in the last 10 yrs you consider better than DD and why.

It's impossible for me to give you a concrete answer because there are several things to consider.
However, speaking from a technical stand point, please give me JFH, Eidur, Crespo, Zola and TAF anyday of the week.

So I obliged Deborah's challenge and went to compile the stats of other player in attack for Chelsea in the same 09/10 season and this is the results.

In the 09/10 season, Malouda made 1573 passes.  Suc. 1228   Unsuc. 345. . . . . 21% unsuccessful pass rate.
In the 09/10 season, Anelka made 1112 passes.  Suc. 831   Unsuc. 281. . . . . 25% unsuccessful pass rate.
In the 09/10 season, kalou made 385 passes.  Suc. 295   Unsuc. 90. . . . . 23% unsuccessful pass rate.

In the 09/10 season, Drogba made 763 passes. - Suc 430, Unsuc 333. 43% unsuccessful pass rate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This absolutely, without any iota of bias, confirms that despite the goals, Drogba is the[b] prime[/b] reason our play in attack breaks down. Malouda is 22% more likely to find a team mate than Drogba is.



As stated earlier. I have compiled this data in spreadsheet format and anyone who wants it can request for it.

It's impossible for me to give you a concrete answer because there are several things to consider.
However, speaking from a technical stand point, please give me JFH, Eidur, Crespo, Zola and TAF anyday of the week.

Fair enough.
I just wanna have an idea of how u "see'' DD.

El Guapo:

^^ You should have noted that your criticism of Torres is basically centered on his not been a League top scorer ever, then that gets me to ask this Question - Does been a League top scorer model one a complete striker {footballer per say}?

Buddy u got to recall that not every great attacker have had it nicely with winning the Pichichi, Capocannonieri or any other top scorers award - Aguero, Tevez, Rooney, Higuan are all case study! In same vien not every top star is meant to win top awards like the Ballon d'or or World best - Davor Suker, Schmeichel, Raul, Henry etc all make the list

El Nino has proved he's a class, not Selfish, not the Profligacy type and definitely a Match Winner, he've proved that he can score against any team, breach any defence something DD could find hard to do {Man Utd been a study case - managing jxt 2 or 3 goals in his many yrs against them}

Form is temporary but Class is permanent and El Nino is a class!

Show me one top class striker who has never been top striker in any league for almost a decade of pro soccer.

Show me a striker who has to be stuck to the bench for his team to win the World cup

Only example is Fernando Torres

How can one play ahead of Xavi and Iniesta and still turn in such horrible numbers

This is insanity.

Ibime:

Now Nateevs is saying its DD and Lamps fault that the team struggle without them. I guess its Zidanes fault that France struggle without him or Rooneys fault that Utd struggle without him.

This is the worst stuff I have read on www. Drogba is at fault when the team struggles without him.

Who is at fault when the team plays better without Torres?

Tell me what single individual honours Torres has won in 10yrs as a pro footballer

Highest goal scorer in any competition?

Can you imagine Nateevs asking me to face the stats? What stats is there to face in a season where DD copped 33 goals and copped 10 assists. Nateevs is busy counting successful passes. A case of fixing a leaking roof whilst the house is burning.

DD was more creative than Torres any season you wish to mention. Whilst Torres may assist with a pass, DD could assist with a cross or a header. I don't think anyone has ever claimed that DD is neat on the ball.

Imagine a pederast like Nateevs asking me to face the stats. Nigga face these stats - there is no passing stats you can pull up except 2008 (where Lamps was injured) that Lamps did not come top 3 in any passing stats.

Nigga you seem to have the passing stats for 2009/2010. You've given us Malouda and Kalou stats. Why you no give us Lamps passing stats. Abi fear dey catch you?

Imagine someone blaming DD for "attacking moves breaking down at his feet" in a season where Chelsea smashed goalscoring record.

I pray the ball break down at Torres feet if "breaking down" can inspire Chelsea to smash goals record.

We be mugu? If Malouda and Kalou are rubbish, yet Lamps and DD can carry the team to be THE MOST CREATIVE TEAM IN EPL HISTORY, I say Nateevs is just proving how immense Lamps and DD were.

hehehe. . .ibime don provoke

Story story . . . . All this is gibberish to me. The argument is the difference between "TEAM WORK" and "WORK RATE".
The argument stems from you creating a false sense of reality that Drogba has better team work than Torres.

The stats prove that Torres is more likely to find a team mate than Drogba is. 10% more likely for that matters.
Simple. If you want to argue something else, then that's up to you.

Just like you said:

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that DD is neat on the ball.

I am saying:

I don't think anyone claims he doesn't score goals.

There's nothing you are proving that's more relevant. It's the same old rant from you.
Accept the facts. Then we move on to the next.

Nateevs

What you are yarning doesnt make one sense at all.

What is the essence of teamwork or whatever when the team loses.

With DD lack of teamwork, The team was breaking all scoring records so of what essence is Torres teamwork

When his NT has to stick him to the bench.

Whats the essense of the mor0nic teamwork when he couldnt score even in a brothel?

Whats the essence of the teamwork when he hasnt been highest goal scorer in ANy league for 10yrs

and to compare this to an Onze D or winner of 2004 and 2 times EPL highest goal scorer is insane

dayokanu:

Show me one top class striker who has never been top striker in any league for almost a decade of pro soccer.

wayne rooney has never been a top striker in any league - he's better than any striker in bundesliga.

Show me a striker who has to be stuck to the bench for his team to win the World cup

coming from spain, it's expected.
if torres' parents were german, he would start for germany!
are you gon' tell me torres won't start for england, france, italy, germany or portugal?

Only example is Fernando Torres
How can one play ahead of Xavi and Iniesta and still turn in such horrible numbers

it means shyte!
torres did it when it matters. scoring in a european final game!
that alone is enough to prove he's world class!

There's no reason for me to reveal Lamps stats. No one's arguing Lamps pass rate.
The revelation of other stats was to oblige Debo's request to eliminate the slight chance of bias.
And I did. Debo, I expect will come back and say "yes Nateevs, you are right, based on the facts"


That said, it seems stupid to me that you will rant over the revelation of stats that screw Drogba and call it, "fixing a leaking roof when the house is burning" yet in the same post challenge me to bring out the same stats for Lamps because you know it will side with you. You must be out of your mind to reason that way.

I will compile the stats for Lamps and I bet you will come back and ask me what I think. Yet you see the same stats about Drogba and you think I am trolling. Deal with it dude!

@Dayo

I am sorry I cannot reply to your post because it's bereft of any technical analysis.
The only thing I see is Torres was benched for Spain. What has that got to do with being a better Chelsea team player?
How can you even say what I'm saying does not make sense, when the evidence is glaring in the face?

coogar:

wayne rooney has never been a top striker in any league - he's better than any striker in bundesliga.

That is because Wayne Rooney is not a top striker like Drogba or Torres. Its like asking Dennis Bergkamp to be a Goleador

Doesnt make any sense

coming from spain, it's expected.
if torres' parents were german, he would start for germany!
are you gon' tell me torres won't start for england, france, italy, germany or portugal?

Torres might start for England or Portugal as those are footballing minnows but I am sure Torres wont start for any top footballing nation If He is behind Negredo and even Lloriente in the pecking order, how would he now start for Germany

it means shyte!
torres did it when it matters. scoring in a european final game!
that alone is enough to prove he's world class!

Angelos Charisteas scored at the same level, That must mean he is world class