alj_harem:

ok, then coal is there then

oil and gas is a no go area

is there still coal in Enugu?

pleep:

is there still coal in Enugu?

yeah i would suspect there are still a large commercial level of coal in enugu

2 days ago

an indian firm just plans to do that

http://www.thetidenewsonline.com/?p=25570

pleep here is another one

http://ekoakete.com/2011/01/20/executive-council-approves-coal-fired-plants/

The contract for the Enugu coal fired power plant will cost over2.141 million pounds while that of Benue/Kogi and Gombe axis will cost over 4.157 million us dollars.

Wow, that is not expensive at all. This is exellent news.

@Poster

In as much as I understand your ideas behind this, I would disagree on the need for steel companies and bricks, our country has to focus on our strengths for industrialization. We must not follow a certain pattern we have to adapt according to our resources and comparative/competitive advantage.

With our shady land act, I believe we are neglecting Agriculture, there is a global market for it and we have the resources for it.

pleep if u are interested you can read more

http://allafrica.com/stories/201106271392.html

kcjazz:

@Poster

In as much as I understand your ideas behind this, I would disagree on the need for steel companies and bricks, our country has to focus on our strengths for industrialization. We must not follow a certain pattern we have to adapt according to our resources and comparative advantage.

With our shady land act, I believe we are neglecting Agriculture, there is a global market for it and we have the resources for it.

sorry, i don't understand the strengthing part.

if u mean textile, agriculture, car manufacturing then we still need this power and steel sector to work at least to 20%

i might be wrong

but i see it as a circle and they all feed each other

ie

if one works, the other too can work etc

alj_harem:

sorry, i don't understand the strengthing part.

if u mean textile, agriculture, car manufacturing then we still need this power and steel sector to work at least to 20%

i might be wrong

but i see it as a circle and they all feed each other

ie

if one works, the other too can work etc

Yeah I believe Agriculture is a huge industry for us, it employs more people now in our country. I don't have a problem with industrialization as proposed, I just believe that it MUST go with Agriculture. And if we have to choose one then lets make it Agriculture.

I believe the world has changed, what worked for America and Manchester City might not necessarily give us the same results. Our attempts to go industrial through Ajaokuta ended up in huge waste, and even with that level of mismanagement if we had invested that same amount in Agriculture we would have being better today.

We must do both but if I have to choose one then its agriculture for me.

I beg to disagree!  While I think it is important to industrialize in order to develop, I also think the global landscape is changing such that a country can actually choose to toe the Knowledge/Service route in its quest for development. A knowledge based economy these days could be as important as an industry based economy.

Steel factories are important but so is Information technology!! Nigeria already has a massive disadvantage in industrialization as cost of labor is already pretty much higher than the likes of China. Even if we make power cheap and infrastructure more efficient, we can never come down on our high labor costs! Nigerian engineers already earn much higher than their counterparts in Eastern Europe.
As a result, our products would always be more expensive that those produced by other countries.
Our forte is mainly in the knowledge areas. Information Technology, Creative Arts, Scientific Innovation, Finance and importantly Value added Agriculture.

Does that mean we should ignore industrialization?? By no means!! I think we should industrialize so we can produce our own goods and  be less dependent on imports. On whether it would be our passport to development, I don't think so!

My take is that our key focus should be on knowledge areas and we are already doing pretty well on these.
The Creative Arts and Media is one area we already have competitive advantage.
We can impact the globe and develop through[b] Information technology.[/b]
We can develop unique financial models that would make Nigeria a hub for everything Finance [/b]when it comes to doing business in Africa.
We can engage in [b]High end Research [/b]that would see us developing solutions unique to africa in all areas from Healthcare to Agriculture to Technology to a host of others.
We can find ways to [b]Add Value to Agricultural products where we already have competitive advantages.


Bottomline is we can develop without the kind of industralization that had been typical to western civilization because the global landscape has changed!!

Steel factories are important but so is Information technology!! Nigeria already has a massive disadvantage in industrialization [/b]as cost of labor is already pretty much higher than the likes of China. Even if we make power cheap and infrastructure more efficient, we can never come down on our high labor costs! [b]Nigerian engineers already earn much higher than their counterparts in Eastern Europe.
As a result, our products would always be more expensive that those produced by other countries.
Our forte is mainly in the knowledge areas. Information Technology, Creative Arts, Scientific Innovation, Finance and importantly Value added Agriculture.

On the contrary Nigeria has an incredible advantage in industrialization! We have the resources. Iron, coal, kaolin, oil, lead, bitumen etc. Africa as a continent has the best case for industrialization.

Yes they earn more than their counterparts in eastern Europe, but what of Western Europe & America? That's still an advantage. Plus our unskilled labor is much cheaper than even china. the average Chinese worker makes 2k a year the average Nigerian makes 700$ the average American makes 50K!

Material resources are local and plentiful, unskilled labor only costs 2$ per day, huge national market. Our advantages far outweigh our dissadvantages.

Yeah I believe Agriculture is a huge industry for us, it employs more people now in our country. I don't have a problem with industrialization as proposed, I just believe that it MUST go with Agriculture. And if we have to choose one then lets make it Agriculture.

I believe the world has changed, what worked for America and Manchester City might not necessarily give us the same results. Our attempts to go industrial through Ajaokuta ended up in huge waste, and even with that level of mismanagement if we had invested that same amount in Agriculture we would have being better today.

We must do both but if I have to choose one then its agriculture for me.

Agriculture is not our forte. the United States has the best farmland in the world, its agriculture is mechanized, and it is subsidized by the government. How could Nigeria compete with subsidized food?
plus if we want out agriculture to be efficient we need heavy machinery.

and for machines you need a steel factory. . . 

One of the key incentives for Agriculture is having a market to sell excess produce. In order to have food security within the country, the government has banned export of agricultural products; this has drastically reduced the out put of farmers in the Northern Nigeria.

pleep:

and for machines you need a steel factory. . . 

Or import processed steel?

PapaBrowne:

I beg to disagree!  While I think it is important to industrialize in order to develop, I also think the global landscape is changing such that a country can actually choose to toe the Knowledge/Service route in its quest for development. A knowledge based economy these days could be as important as an industry based economy.

Won't create enough jobs

Even if we make power cheap and infrastructure more efficient, we can never come down on our high labor costs! Nigerian engineers already earn much higher than their counterparts in Eastern Europe.

Really? Can you give some #s so we can get a sense of how the costs compare?

pleep:

Agriculture is not our forte. the United States has the best farmland in the world, its agriculture is mechanized, and it is subsidized by the government. How could Nigeria compete with subsidized food?
plus if we want out agriculture to be efficient we need heavy machinery.

and for machines you need a steel factory. . .

If Agriculture is not our forte, then steel manufacturing is?
We lack the innovation, technical expertise and resources to manage the steel industry plus just because we are rolling the raw materials does not guarantee us market.

On the other hand, there is a world food crisis, there is a market for goods for food, technology, medicine etc The developed countries lack enough land for their own food.

My belief is we can't grow the way America did because time has changed and we lack unlimited resources. How do we fund this type industrialisation? On the other hand Agriculture is cheap, employs more people and if we reform our land laws it will lead to great things then we can fund your steel factories.

By development, if we mean wealth that trickles down to more folks, I don't think steel factories will do it, it could build skyscrappers but then more poor unhappy folks.

@Pleep, agriculture is not our "forte" ? eating and drinking is a necessity and we are bleeding money because we are importing those finished goods from outside.


We have to stop trying to leap before we can walk. Its not about competing in the outside world for space OUTSIDE Nigeria, it is about filling the gaps that others have taken advantage of WITHIN Nigeria.

We need to be more inward looking in the coming years.

Maybe we could have saved some of the N4.2 Trillion we spent on importing food in 2010, that is not even counting all the other goods we import.

Tsiya:

One of the key incentives for Agriculture is having a market to sell excess produce. In order to have food security within the country, the government has banned export of agricultural products; this has drastically reduced the out put of farmers in the Northern Nigeria.

that is why we have other african countries

excess can be sold to them after the food produced in nigeria can be as cheap as we can possiblly make it to be

londoner:

@Pleep, agriculture is not our "forte" ? eating and drinking is a necessity and we are bleeding money because we are importing those finished goods from outside.


We have to stop trying to leap before we can walk. Its not about competing in the outside world for space OUTSIDE Nigeria, it is about filling the gaps that others have taken advantage of WITHIN Nigeria.

We need to be more inward looking in the coming years.

Maybe we could have saved some of the N4.2 Trillion we spent on importing food in 2010, that is not even counting all the other goods we import.

I actually agree with everything you wrote here 100%. However the problem is how are we going to make our agriculture competitive with developed countries? We need machines very expensive machines that will have to be imported from other countries. Industrialization in the way I mentioned is the only way to effectivly create these machines in Nigeria. Creating jobs and lowering cost (maintaince, shipping etc). This also would be a springboard for us to enter technology.

Another problem with agriculture is competition, especially from the u.s. American agriculture is fully mechanized and subsidized by the government. I may be missinformed, but I belive that one of the conditions for recieving foriegn aid ( nigeria revives hundreds of millions of $ in u.s.a.i.d from he American govenment) is NO tarrifs on American products.
So it's impossible for us in the private sector to really do anything meaningfull in Nigerian agriculture until this changes.

Because of this cheap subsidized American food pours into Africa.

^^When I talk about American imports I'm refering to rice, corn and grains.
Cassava and palm oil can still be done but that would only fix a fraction of our food imports.

My belief is we can't grow the way America did because time has changed and we lack unlimited resources. How do we fund this type industrialisation? On the other hand Agriculture is cheap, employs more people and if we reform our land laws it will lead to great things then we can fund your steel factories.

Mechanized agriculture doest employ much people at all.
Non-mechanized does but it's not cost competitive.

What's wrong with nigerias land laws?

I've got a question to anyone who is/feels as though he/she is knowledgeable to answer:

Is there a way to have industrialization without the below?
[img width=400 height=262]http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/84758/078423.jpg[/img]
[img width=400 height=262]http://cominganarchy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/polluted-china.jpg[/img]

^^ hey hows exporting oil treating nigeria?

That's exactly my question, pleep, and that's part of the reason why I asked.

there are states that developed without  industrialisation (Kuwait, the emirates, Saudi Arabia). However those states are mainly dependent on governments goodwill. Note that this is not attainable in Nigeria though, because we have a massive population. I think industrialisation makes you very self sufficient and immune to foreign intimidation. Unfortunately many Nigerians don't understand what it takes to create wealth; rather we just wanna see and have the wealth. The only major activity areas in Nigeria are telecommunication, oil and gas, and finance. Oil and gas is keeping us alive, telecommunications can only have this much impact on the economy, finance is a service and is too vulnerable to people's opinion of you. First baby steps to massively reduce poverty in Nigeria (to me) is-
1) liberalise the power sector. Make it easy for all tom, Joystick, and harry to go into the power sector with little capital; whilst maintaining the required safety standards. Safety standards and requirements should be well articulated and documented. It should also be published on the web. Power industry would naturally pick up. Business people only care about money, and their is money to be made in Nigeria's power sector. Even I would like to have a bite.
2) Liberalise mining and exploration.  Make it easy for all tom, Joystick, and harry to go into the mining sector with little capital; whilst maintaining the required safety standards. Solid mining is another big boom area capable of generating enormous wealth and jobs. This way we can also mine iron for steel production.
3) Provide adequate information for setting up businesses in all essential fields of the economy and even offer to help investors set up successfully.
4) Make finance available for most of these businesses. Nigerian banks are a disgrace when it comes to lending to local businesses. This is what sanusi should be talking about not deposit limits and sharia banks. Know the banks that lend to local businesses and support those banks. Avoid banks that send their money to other foreign banks to earn interest on deposit.
5)Government, state and federal, especially federal should pull out from most of the unnecessary responsibilities they have assumed and be more fiscally conservative. Sack a lot of the public servants (with huge benefits of course, and may be help them get another job). Maintain a well paid, leaner, and more professional public service.
6) Use money from crude oil to set up state of the art infrastructure in Nigeria, better security, invest in projects that may not be very profitable at the moment but essential for our country's development.

ChinenyeN:

That's exactly my question, pleep, and that's part of the reason why I asked.

With industrialization comes pollution, that inescapable. Once your done industrializing you clean it all up.

So, is there a way to maximize industrialization, while minimizing the issues?

^ I guess nuclear. But unfourtunatly that doesn't seem to be an option for Nigeria.

Besides agriculture, are there alternatives to industrialization like the one in the pictures above?

@Op,
Reasonable post, right on everything except education. Nigerians aren't focusing on education, at least not the government, Do we even have 5% of the appropriation bill 2011 looking at education? Even the so-called 'everybody is going to school' myth is just that, a myth. Nigeria has 150 million people. Do we even produce 200 thousand graduates a year?

In any case, there's no political stability, not at all. Every power transfer exercise (election) remains national trauma, and it is looking like that'll continue in the near future. Without a stable polity, I find it hard to see anything congruent with industrialization or development happening any time soon.

ChinenyeN:

Besides agriculture, are there alternatives to industrialization like the one in the pictures above?

I dont think so.

AjanleKoko:


In any case, there's no political stability, not at all. Every power transfer exercise (election) remains national trauma, and it is looking like that'll continue in the near future. Without a stable polity, I find it hard to see anything congruent with industrialization or development happening any time soon.

think about why this is. . . look especially at the almajiris. If we had industrialization These people would not be unemployed desperate and violent.
If we put tarrifs on clothing imports and opened several huge textile factories in the north. it would drasticaly reduce the poverty in that region thus creating a more stable political climate.

In short, we need industrialization and the job oppurtunities it brings for a more stable country.

pleep:

think about why this is. . . look especially at the almajiris. If we had industrialization These people would not be unemployed desperate and violent.
If we put tarrifs on clothing imports and opened several huge textile factories in the north. it would drasticaly reduce the poverty in that region thus creating a more stable political climate.

iIn short, we need industrialization and the job oppurtunities it bring for a more stable political climate.

My guy, you can't get one without the other. Look at Pakistan. a Big Ole country with more people than we do in Nigeria, even nuclear capabilities . . . and going nowhere.
The best that can happen to us is some sharks sneaking in under the radar and milking our backsides for what we have, since we are too busy struggling for whatever. Every 4 years, christians, moslems, hausas, yorubas, igbos, Niger Delta peeps, etc, etc, all struggling to tear the country into pieces and take their own piece home. Tell me what kind of meaningful progress can be made with all of that going on?

^ so nigeria needs to split?

pleep:

^ so nigeria needs to split?

yeah i think so.
We have been sold this crap about a Big Bad Black United Country for so long, it makes you want to puke. That ain't ever going to happen.
Meanwhile, there is so much madness going on beneath the surface. if its not MEND today, its Boko Haram, trying to get theirs. Schizophrenic looting, what have you. Nothing productive going on, or frantic attempts to kill any productive thing going on. It's like the concept of National Cake just became real to all of us. Everybody greedily scrambling for their share of whatever. There are way too many distractions.

We conveniently forget that we were never together before 1914. So where did all this Kumbaya unity come from? If we're going to split, let's split now and to each his own. Whatever we think we're doing now is not working. In any case, are we the people the ones doing it?

You may be right , but this is not that discussion. This is about posistive measures the private sector & government can take to make to develope Nigeria.

Keep in mind the benifits of industrialization are not just monetary. They are mental aswell, people will think and behave differently. And i stand by my assertion that industrialization will make the country more politically stable.