Joagbaje:

Clowns like you don't require intelligent response.

2 Timothy 2:23
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Joagbaje:

It sure has everything to do with it. The old testament reference he gave had to do with tithes and offerings.

The pastor is not actually consuming tithes. It belongs to God. And the same way , tithes and offerings were used to run the affair of the temple . And welfare of ministers is only a part. Money given in church belongs to God. It's not pastors money.  Most pastors actually have their jobs and business and some few that are not allowed of God to do secular work are put on salary,Which still has to be approved for them by elders or G.O . According to the structure of their churches. It doesn't mean that the pastor collects tithes and spend on himself . The church money does not belong to a pastor. He is a steward.

ogajim:

Pastor JoAgbaje: I don't think you understand the CONTEXT of this quote because if Jesus Christ paid the ULTIMATE debt to free us from the BONDAGE of SIN and DEATH, aren't we the TEMPLE of God? Do you have another type of Temple in today's Christianity? Aren't we Royal Priests of God?

You wake up one morning, follow some jerry curled dude about and proclaim you have been called and now we are supposed to pay for you?

Why can't you "eat" from the free will offerings since you want to be fed? Why must you impose a non-existent requirement on your flock?

Judgment day go though no be small.

ogajim:

Nigerians sha! They live in "civilized" societies but still remain steeped in the old mentality, If you have to use SCAMS to raise funds to fund your excessive plans, it doesn't make it less sinful because of your reasons for doing so.

garyarnold:

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 has nothing to do with tithing.

The tithe didn't go to the Temple to begin with.  It went to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities.  Then the Levites took a tenth of the tithe to the Temple.  Therefore, only 1%, not a tithe, went to the Temple.  But there were many different types of offerings that went to the Temple.

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God.

After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God.  Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe.  God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if a pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?  Can someone just appointment themselves to received God's tithe?

garyarnold:

Is that the way you do it in church today?  Do you give the tithe to the ushers, musicians, singers, etc. etc. who do the work, and then let them give a tenth of what they get to the pastor?

The Levites were to keep up the Temple.  Now our bodies are the Temple.

NONE of the OT tithe was used for buildings, supplies, missionary work, etc. etc.

Are those who receive the tithe today allowed to own land?

Today's tithe is a joke.  It has NOTHING to do with the purpose and use of the Biblical tithe. 

ogajim:

Pastor JoAgbaje don come again coming off the bench for viaro/pilgrim.1/(later day) Wordtalk .

garyarnold:

Since the tithes belonged to God in Scripture, did He accuse men to be stealing for receiving tithes from His people?

YES, He did.  In Nehemiah 13 he accused the PRIESTS of stealing a portion of the tithe that belonged to the Levites.  THAT IS THE ROBBING GOD REFERRED TO IN MALACHI 3.

GOD, not me, GAVE THE TITHE TO THE LEVITES.  If anyone else took His tithe, they were robbing God.

PLAIN AND SIMPLE.  GOD gave that command long AFTER Abram gave a tenth to Melchizedec.  GOD has given no one else permission to receive His tithe since He gave the command to take His tithe to the LEVITES.

What happened BEFORE God gave that command is irrelevant.  Once God gave His command, the issue is settled.  The tithe goes to THE LEVITES, per GOD.

That is the LATEST command God has given as to where to take His tithe.  Take it elsewhere, and YOU are robbing God PER THE SCRIPTURES.

Zikkyy:

Jo dey enter game from 89th minute due to lack of stamina. The man is one central defender that's so good at scoring own goals

ogajim:

Anyone is free to do as he/she pleases with his/her resources, the only point some of us have argued against is the notion that if you ain't doing it, you've got to be robbing God,

Today's governments don't have any semblance of the Levitical system either!

garyarnold:

wordtalk is a good talker.

Seems those who talk best get elected President (of the US), and to other government offices because they sound so good and knowledgeable.

The good talker is believed by many.  The good talker can convince both the ignorant and those who are educated that the world is flat, or the earth is going to end on a certain date.

Each has to account for his own actions and beliefs.  We are accountable to God, not to each other.

What is right for one may not be right for another.

Although I believe it is misleading if not flat out wrong to use the term tithing when we are giving, all this debating is a waste of time.

 As long as we agree that tithing is not REQUIRED for Christians, and that tithing has NOTHING to do with salvation, we'd be better off using our debating time with those who teach that tithing is a requirement in the New Testament.  That is the real message we need to get out.

EVERY church I have attended here in the central part of California teaches that tithing is a REQUIREMENT of Christians by God, and that we are robbing God if we don't bring a tenth of our income to the church.  I have NEVER attended a church that teaches that tithing is an option with one exception.  After meeting with several pastors, ONE of them started teaching that tithing was not a requirement but voluntary.

In conclusion, if wordtalk wants to give a tenth of his income to the church (or to the poor, or anywhere else) and wants to call it tithing, I will try to refrain from debating the issue.  But we don't want anyone to think that wordtalk tithes because he believes it is a requirement by God.

My giving is not limited to alms but extends to tithing – the voluntary giving of a tenth of my income, set apart as my priestly act of worship to God. . .

This is why I do not ‘pay’, but rather voluntarily give tithes. Even though my giving is partly expressed in the form of tithing, it is not a legal debt I owe to God – rather, it is a willing and cheerful expression of my commitment in worship to Him.

http://givingtithes.com/i-dont-pay-tithes/

I will continue to encourage that Christians avoid using the word tithe when they are giving.

At the same time, I will continue to encourage Christians to be generous givers. By generous, I mean according to what they have.  For most, I believe they (me included) can and should be giving far more than a mere ten percent of their income.

Febup:

God gave a commandment that the sons of Levi should take tithes and He did not say pastors should take tithes, if pastors can not obey this simple command by God then, it just goes to show the kind of conmen we have today claiming to be pastors

29.Hebrews 7:5
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham

garyarnold:

Although I believe it is misleading if not flat out wrong to use the term tithing when we are giving, all this debating is a waste of time.  As long as we agree that tithing is not REQUIRED for Christians, and that tithing has NOTHING to do with salvation, we'd be better off using our debating time with those who teach that tithing is a requirement in the New Testament.  That is the real message we need to get out.

wordtalk:

^^ How many times are you going to repeat that complaint? Please show us how God personally comes down to receive your own offerings with His own hands - if you give anything at all. Only then will your repetitions be of any interest.

God gave us is a simple command that the sons of Levi should take tithes, why can't pastors obey it, yet they accuse Christians that they are not obeying God if they don't pay their tithes. You pastors collecting tithes are income sucking conmen

29.Hebrews 7:5
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham

wordtalk:

Sorry for your loss! This is not a personality contest, so stop having headaches for being a poor communicator.

There goes the usual jingoistic pity-party again! And you didn't consider yourself 'knowledgeable' when you kept bringing up the slogan of 'lack understanding' because your views were shoddy? Sorry again.

Is this about the flat-earth theory now? Is tithing at par with the end of the world? More clutching at straws.

Good - that's why you should let others account of themselves to God, rather than fidgeting about their choice to tithe. For all that, God is not going to judge anyone for tithing.

Your choice, their choice - everyone is free to choose whether to tithe or not.

It has not been a 'debate', so stop pampering yourself. It would not be a waste of time if folks like you had shown some deference to those who are persuaded contrary to your arguments.

You're sounding like a convert. Miles ago on this thread, some have already expressed that tithing for them is not a rigid law; but anti-tithers did not let it rest at that point. Hiding behind this excuse of 'the real message' is nothing short of a make-over.

I'm just wondering how many such churches count on your list of 'EVERY'. Have you never heard about the recent survey by the NAE (National Association of Evangelicals)? While about 58% of Evangelical leaders say that tithing is not 'required', yet "about 95% of those who responded to our survey said that they at least tithed – they give 10% or more. So, they do tithe even though they think that it is not a requirement" (NAE President, Leith Anderson).

This is just to show that there are many Christian leaders who encourage their congregation to tithe without making it a requirement in legalistic terms.

If you want to understand something about my persuasions to tithe as a Christian, read this article:

Lol, is that not the 'real message' in your anti-tithing campaigns? Those who choose to give tithes understand what they are doing - they do not have to wait for you to "encourage" them to avoid using that word. Many people who oppose tithing also use another word: "freewill offerings", even though that term does not once appear anywhere in the NT.

This game of words where anti-tithers have a problem with 'tithes' is conveniently hidden behind fancy talk of 'encourage' this and that - soon we will be reading how you don't have problems with people tithing "per se".

Oh pleease! How many of your recruits have become "generous givers" above a tenth of their resources? If 1 out of 10 is a problem, who would you convince of your "generosity"?

nlMediator:

If you ask me, I'd think it would have been more appropriate to respond with the same level of graciousness that the gentleman extended. Your persistence in 'fighting' even when it is clear there's little basis for these arguments suggests that you have something else in mind beyond your claim to voluntary tithing.

nlMediator:

If you ask me, I'd think it would have been more appropriate to respond with the same level of graciousness that the gentleman extended. Your persistence in 'fighting' even when it is clear there's little basis for these arguments suggests that you have something else in mind beyond your claim to voluntary tithing.

If anything, your position is much closer to his than those who argue that tithing is required for blessing,salvation or protection from physical and financial ruin.

Maybe, you should spend more effort explaining to those people why you do not 'pay' tithes, but instead 'give' tithes. That would be a more fruitful debate.

wordtalk:

What do you call unfounded accusations from the 'gentleman' you're inferring - graciousness? I've tried to accommodate dialogue as much as it can be given; but when they turned the discussion into ridicule, where's the graciousness in that?

FYI, I'm not 'fighting' anyone - those who feel a 'fight' only show us how much of a dialogue they desire.

I think you mistake me for someone else. Not in one place would you read such an idea even remotely suggested in my comments.
I'm not 'debating' - there's nothing here that looks like a 'debate'. I have given a link to the article for anyone interested to see what I was on about - unless someone specifically calls for a reposting of it here, which I will oblige.

nlMediator:

Read mine again. I think we're saying the same thing - that you do not require tithing for salavation, blessing or protection. Others do. Why not show them why they are 'wrong'?

Instead, you've never given a direct response to the claims about 'paying' instead of 'giving' tithes.

garyarnold:

I will continue to encourage that Christians avoid using the word tithe when they are giving.  At the same time, I will continue to encourage Christians to be generous givers.  By generous, I mean according to what they have.  For most, I believe they (me included) can and should be giving far more than a mere ten percent of their income.

oluwabamis:

Talk of blessing from God I have enjoyed it more than the titters. I got promoted this year, got a salary increase that tithers didnt get. The proponents of tithe are those who benefit from it, when they say it's for your good they mean just the opposite.
If you want to pay your tithe, go ahead you still get blessed for it. It's your money afterall, and you have a right to use it the way you deem fit. But God didn't command xtians to tithe.

wordtalk:

^^
I was actually going to edit that line, but since you commented on it before I could.

I think there's a difference in what we're saying. If we were close, there would be no arguments sustained between garyarnold and me up until now - would we not have simply left it at saying that Christians could tithe as long as they do not suppose that tithing procures salvation?

However, when he goes on and on completely and vehemently disavowing any hint of tithing among Christians, that takes the cake! That is why I have kept my comments on the issues he raises rather than on other things.

At least I posted a link - and if there are questions, I would oblige answers. To whom would I be responding to when such 'direct responses' have not been called for? I think your comments are rather unjustified.

nlMediator:

Not been called for? That's a central part of this discussion. Should christians 'pay' tithes or not? Every other thing is tangential. Yet, you've not done much to address that other than post a link buried in a long post, while you quibble over such minor points as whether 1% of 10% is a tenth or tithe or whether giving done after taking care of family responsibilities constitute a tithe so long as it called that.

nlMediator:

Not been called for? That's a central part of this discussion. Should christians 'pay' tithes or not?

One who believes is free to give a tithe of what they choose if they so wish. To strain far too much on the letter of the Law tends only to legalism.

There's nothing against a Christian giving a tithe or tenth if they so please - but to argue all against tithing is simply erratic reasoning.

garyarnold:

Some still do not understand what I teach.

I am a Money & Finance Minister. I teach finances according to Biblical principles.

I do NOT teach budgeting as I believe a budget, like a diet, is a short-term fix. I teach changing the way you look at finances. Changing the way you look at needs vs wants. To make changes in your life so that you do not get yourself in deep debt. To teach the power of interest - how it can enrich you, and how it can destroy you financially. I teach fiscal responsibility. I teach to live BELOW your means if possible SO THAT you will have more to give to others less fortunate. I teach against selfishness. I have a whole website dealing with nothing but giving. I teach that true giving is to give from the heart with no expectation of receiving something back. If you expect something back, does it even meet the definition of a gift?

I teach that those who give TO GET blessed are INVESTING, not giving.

I teach that pastors who teach that tithing is a requirement of Christians are false teachers. I teach that pastors who say that your giving starts at ten percent are false teachers. I teach that money has corrupted the church just as it has politicians, businesses, and so many people in general.

etc. etc. etc.

garyarnold:

A Budget is part of a Financial Plan, and it is hard to see the substance of teaching only one aspect.

A budget is part of a financial plan for those who need a budget. For those who are not disciplined in dealing with their finances any other way. The same as a diet is necessary for someone who is not disciplined to eat properly.

My teaching has been highly praised by many ministers when I have given my classes AT THE CHURCH on Saturdays, at NO charge. If it wasn't for my belief that tithing is NOT a requirement in the New Testament, I would have been teaching finances in Sunday School. I was asked to, but refused because the pastor said I would have to teach that tithing is required.

wordtalk:

That again is strongly unfair, if not patently misguided. I have not been quibbling on minor points - unless you're asserting that anti-tithers have been quibbling over non-essentials, for it is what they have argued that I have responded to. I think you've rather not read my comments before jumping to conclusions - if you missed them, please go and read again.

- - - - - - -
Edit


As far back as post #259, I said this:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=724424.msg8869922#msg8869922

- and also in post #264, this is what I said:

I therefore don't understand why you're suddenly making unjustified comments that I had "never" given a direct response! This is why I urge you to please check carefully before you make untrue statements.