garyarnold:

And just what are your credentials to teach finances?

Please quote me where I said that I teach finances. This is the kind of strawman you like to argue. If I stated anywhere that I teach finances, then I would see the relevance of your question.

One doesn't have to be an accountant to know that budgeting is involved in finances. Talking cheap by blowing your trumpet here doesn't change that fact - unless in your 'retired' certification the opposite is what you were taught!

wordtalk:

A Budget is part of a Financial Plan, and it is hard to see the substance of teaching only one aspect.

Most of the things you mention are also taught by many pastors who encourage tithing, and it is not 'breaking news' that they do not teach it as a "requirement", even though they encourage their congregations to tithe. That is a totally different thing from the anti-tithing campaign to argue all against any hint of tithing among Christians.

I would really love to know the kind of Church this guy worships at so I could worship there when time permits, this "utopian" kind of Church doesn't exist in the Pentecostal universe of prosperity/get yours in this life and the life after/give in order to receive, Cref and co don't preach that stuff neither do their "lieutenants"

Share the good news buddy!

Everyone, please notice how wordtalk responds to me.

Wordtalk admits that he is not a finance teacher yet he tells me that "One doesn't have to be an accountant to know that budgeting is involved in finances."

And what I said is that I don't teach budgeting.

No matter what I say, wordtalk is going to come back and say something to try and make him look smarter than me, and to make me look like I am a dummy.  That's wordtalks character. He has been doing this for many months on many different blogs where he uses different names.

Wordtalk NEVER admits he is wrong.  On one blog he argued a simple math problem and kept telling me I was wrong.  Over and over and over and over again.  It went on for quite a while.  Either someone showed wordtalk that his answer was wrong and mine was right, or he finally figured it out.  Did he admit he had made an error?  I mean, we are all human.  No, once he got the right answer he said he was just giving me a hard time!  That's his character.  He has to always be right.

Notice how when you criticize anything he has said, he ALWAYS comes back with justification.

Just let it go, people.  Pray for him.

^^^

Roger that,

We do need to pray for a lot of these folks that are under the "influence"

Wordtalk/viaro/pilgrim.1 seems to worship in a Church that preaches the true undiluted Word of God hence my insistence on him sharing the good news(if he is in a mood to that is but I won't hold my breath on that).

I am not sure sure that looking "smart" while trying to make everyone else around look "stupid" is a Christian value after all, much like a "star" player (we're talking about practice ) who doesn't make his team mates better.

garyarnold:

Everyone, please notice how wordtalk responds to me.

Wordtalk admits that he is not a finance teacher yet he tells me that "One doesn't have to be an accountant to know that budgeting is involved in finances."

You often find an appeal in your jingoism. This is not about you or me - and if you don't want comments about what you do, then find a personal thread to yak all you want about them!

The simple thing to do is not yell for 'everyone' - rather, show how teaching finances DOES not involve budgeting. That's all. If budgeting is not involved at any point in finances, you would have made your case rather than yapping for attention.

And what I said is that I don't teach budgeting.

And what did I say?

No matter what I say, wordtalk is going to come back and say something to try and make him look smarter than me, and to make me look like I am a dummy.  That's wordtalks character. He has been doing this for many months on many different blogs where he uses different names.

There's no need to bring this down to my person or character - it does not make you half-smart.

Wordtalk NEVER admits he is wrong.

That's just plain silly. If you show me something that bears clear substance with reality, there would be no need for me to point out how shallow your assertions are in the first place. At least, once I have said 'I was wrong'  to zikkyy where I misread him. But you?? How many times have you accused me of a 'lacking understanding' in things which you could not sustain?

On one blog he argued a simple math problem and kept telling me I was wrong.  Over and over and over and over again.  It went on for quite a while.  Either someone showed wordtalk that his answer was wrong and mine was right, or he finally figured it out.  Did he admit he had made an error?  I mean, we are all human.  No, once he got the right answer he said he was just giving me a hard time!  That's his character.  He has to always be right.

You brought that same silly calculation of 1% in Numbers 31 here, I showed you how incorrect you were. Did you cough after that? Besmirching my character is plain dense - you can hit the panic button as many times as you wish.

Notice how when you criticize anything he has said, he ALWAYS comes back with justification.

And after all the noise, where have you shown me that budgeting is not involved in finances? You like to cheat up and down with all this noise and then try even harder to sling mud - but where does it get you?

Just let it go, people.  Pray for him.

You've been on that 'prayer' forever - but your calculations are both dumb and wrong! Go and read Numbers 31 again to the end!

garyarnold:

Wordtalk admits that he is not a finance teacher yet he tells me that "One doesn't have to be an accountant to know that budgeting is involved in finances."

Simple, people who are informed already know this -

- "Budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan. It doesn’t matter if you’re living paycheck to paycheck or earning six-figures a year, you need to know where your money is going if you want to have a handle on your finances."

http://financialplan.about.com/od/budgetingyourmoney/tp/budgeting-101.htm

All you needed to do was show me how budgeting is not involved in finances - that was all. But should it be surprising that you would yak on for attention rather than calmly reason things through?

This is funny.  wordtalk quotes from an article called Budgeting 101.  Now he needs to quote my MY website Tithing 101 !!!!!

Most finance teachers teach budgeting.  I don't.  I never said budgets were not a part of finances.

My approach to finances takes a much more mature approach.  My method works.  I am not here to give a class in finances on this blog.

It makes sense that someone who believes that tithing today is good would also think budgets are good.  It simple to use a tenth, and to follow a budget.  It's more complicated and involved to really understand what you are doing.

garyarnold:

This is funny.  wordtalk quotes from an article called Budgeting 101.

Are you thick or what? Did you miss what I said or you're just talented at being silly altogether? What does this mean to you: "people who are informed already know this - Budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan"? I noted from the start that "A Budget is part of a Financial Plan, and it is hard to see the substance of teaching only one aspect" - as if that is not clear enough, I also remarked that "budgeting is involved in finances".

You talk as if you exclude budgeting altogether from teaching finances - which was why I said it would make no sense if that were the case.

Most finance teachers teach budgeting.  I don't.  I never said budgets were not a part of finances.

You would not be involving budgeting at all while teaching finances - is that it? Isn't that plain silly?

My approach to finances takes a much more mature approach.  My method works.  I am not here to give a class in finances on this blog.

Nobody is asking for classes, which makes one wonder at all that you would go there - sounds like you're advertizng your retired CV for a job nobody wants!

It makes sense that someone who believes that tithing today is good would also think budgets are good.  It simple to use a tenth, and to follow a budget.  It's more complicated and involved to really understand what you are doing.

The complications arise when you magically imagine that budgeting is not compatible with tithing.

The complications arise when you magically imagine that budgeting is not compatible with tithing.

Budgeting is very compatible with giving a tenth.  VERY compatible.  The tenth would be a part of the budget.  No thinking required.  A robot can do it.

As I said, I teach neither tithing nor budgeting.

You don't need a budget when you learn how to make intelligent financial decisions.

Some, in fact most financial teachers prefer to teach budgeting because it's the easiest to understand and use, and many financial teachers know of no other way.  But like diets, I have found that budgets can have too many weak spots.  It's like the difference between using a calculator to work out a problem and using your brain to logically think through the process to come up with the answer.  The calculator is faster, but the thinking process educates.  By developing the thinking process rather than using budgets, a person learns how to arrive at smart financial decisions.  Makes a budget sort of like baby steps, or for the beginner, or for those who prefer not to educate themselves to make better financial decisions.  Budgets are the easy way out, and can actually work sometimes.

wordtalk:

Are you thick or what? Did you miss what I said or you're just talented at being silly altogether? What does this mean to you: "people who are informed already know this - Budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan"? I noted from the start that "A Budget is part of a Financial Plan, and it is hard to see the substance of teaching only one aspect" - as if that is not clear enough, I also remarked that "budgeting is involved in finances".

You talk as if you exclude budgeting altogether from teaching finances - which was why I said it would make no sense if that were the case.

You would not be involving budgeting at all while teaching finances - is that it? Isn't that plain silly?

Nobody is asking for classes, which makes one wonder at all that you would go there - sounds like you're advertizng your retired CV for a job nobody wants!

The complications arise when you magically imagine that budgeting is not compatible with tithing.

What's a "retired CV"?

Meekness not meanness is what we need to present at all times as good Christians.

"There is nothing infallibly prophetic about pessimistic or cynical conjecture, " (little riddle who wrote the line)

ogajim:


Meekness not meanness is what we need to present at all times as good Christians.

"There is nothing infallibly prophetic about pessimistic or cynical conjecture, " (little riddle who wrote the line)

You guys make me laugh. Where were you and your riddle when your anti-tithing gang were quite at home with cynicism?

garyarnold:

Budgeting is very compatible with giving a tenth.  VERY compatible.  The tenth would be a part of the budget.  No thinking required.  A robot can do it.

This shows how much you've been hawking your pretentious claims.

You don't need a budget when you learn how to make intelligent financial decisions.

These excuses coming from you rather weaken your claims. There's nothing 'intelligent' about financial plans that do not involve budgeting at some level. Everyone who knows what they're talking about (except you) already understands that "Budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan". A financial plan without a 'foundation' would appeal to cheats. End of.

The only reason why you are unable to show me the contrary is because you're looking for another outlet to cheat those who are easily taken by your pretentious eclat.

@garyarnold,
i am yet to get a response to my question. Take your time however.

Your certifications are note-worthy but it's hard to believe you even taught a christian class on financial planning without budgeting.
Did you happen to ever quote Luke 14:28-32 with emphasis on vr 31 where you can see a clear case of budgeting. The 1st 2 verses has something to do with financial planning.
Do not blame us if you do not like to use words like tithe and budget because I think this is where the real issue lies.
I just imagine you substitute other words for it.
However, it will be nice to have some learning on how financial planning, without budgeting, works.

@Snowwy,

Luke 14:28-32 has NOTHING to do with household budgets. Of course when you are going to build a house, church, or do any major addition or upgrade, you workout a cost analysis and have to have a way to pay for it. But you don't need a budget to pay the cost.

The fact that I don't budget doesn't mean I don't keep track of all my expenses as well as my income. The fact that I don't budget doesn't mean that I don't occasionally do an analysis of where my money is going.

I have a problem keeping my weight down where I am comfortable with it. Unfortunately, I use diets to lose weight. I haven't reached the point where I have been able to discipline myself when it comes to eating. I am taking the easy way out.

I don't have a problem with my finances. I don't need any budget because I have learned how to discipline myself when it comes to finances. I think smart rather than think budget. I teach the thinking process one needs to go through rather than developing budgets.

Budgets don't always expose the problem when someone is having financial problems. I get to the problem, if there is one, and use a thinking process to solve the problem. I teach good financial habits. Budgets can have a major flaw of hiding the problem.

garyarnold:

Luke 14:28-32 has NOTHING to do with household budgets.  Of course when you are going to build a house, church, or do any major addition or upgrade, you workout a cost analysis and have to have a way to pay for it.  But you don't need a budget to pay the cost.

Everyone who understands the simplicity of that passage (except you) knows that it underscores the importance of budgets and budgeting. We all know that budgeting is the foundation of every financial plan - so all this talk about 'upgrade' etc., without a foundation is recipe for disaster, no matter how you swivel here and there on the matter.

The fact that I don't budget doesn't mean I don't keep track of all my expenses as well as my income. The fact that I don't budget doesn't mean that I don't occasionally do an analysis of where my money is going.

Perhaps you need to go back and learn the basics, rather than play fast and loose with words. What you're describing is quite simply budgeting - you may avoid the term (since you're desperate to cut corners); but there's no escaping the fact that you're just describing budgeting there while denying that it is so.

I have a problem keeping my weight down where I am comfortable with it.  Unfortunately, I use diets to lose weight.  I haven't reached the point where I have been able to discipline myself when it comes to eating.  I am taking the easy way out.

Equivocation and the fallacy of false analogy.

I don't have a problem with my finances.  I don't need any budget because I have learned how to discipline myself when it comes to finances.  I think smart rather than think budget.  I teach the thinking process one needs to go through rather than developing budgets.

There's nothing 'smart' about finances that have no foundation - talk to smart people who handle finances without the fanciful words you're playing around with.

Budgets don't always expose the problem when someone is having financial problems.  I get to the problem, if there is one, and use a thinking process to solve the problem.  I teach good financial habits.  Budgets can have a major flaw of hiding the problem.

Lol, this is the funniest joke on the planet going. How do you discover financial problems without first evaluating expenditure? Isn't budgeting the core of such evaluations? Call it another name, if you may; but it is not even close to being 'smart' when you want to keep cheating and cutting corners with 'smart' words that only create more problems!

Febup:

29.Hebrews 7:5
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham

Even a kid can keep this simple command of God that the sons of Levi are the ones that can take tithes from the people. So why can't pastors with all their anointing obey this simple command. Watch out that those tithes advocates who will respond to my question will start a debate which is their deceitful way of deceiving their gullible followers.

You're not making any sense , if I may say

I think wordtalk needs to look up the word budget in the dictionary.  I don't budget.  Period.  Yet I am very successful financially.

I don't budget x number of dollars for food for the month, or x number of dollars for utilities for the month, etc. etc. etc.  That would be a budget.  The US government has a budget, and look at the mess they are in.  I am not saying that governments don't need a budget.  I am saying individuals don't need a budget.  I used to use budgets until I realized a better way.

garyarnold:

I think wordtalk needs to look up the word budget in the dictionary.  I don't budget.  Period.  Yet I am very successful financially.

I've not questioned your personal financial status; but all your talk about teaching finances to others without involving budget at any level is plain rubbish talk! All you needed to do was show me it was wrong to think that "Budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan" - everyone (except you) who has a clue of sound financial principles knows that foundation!

I don't budget x number of dollars for food for the month, or x number of dollars for utilities for the month, etc. etc. etc.  That would be a budget.  The US government has a budget, and look at the mess they are in.  I am not saying that governments don't need a budget.  I am saying individuals don't need a budget.  I used to use budgets until I realized a better way.

My dear sir, please don't be so shallow. A 'budget' is far beyond that, and reaches on to someone's financial goals! That is why budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan - and that is what helps anyone to make sense of their finances.

So all the magical gimmicks of your brand of 'finances' that evades the foundation is plain dumb talk - which is why all this time you have not been able to show how finances work without involving budgets at all! You don't have to keep making empty excuses on the issue - but when you try to sell trash in a public forum, expect to be woken up to reality.

There wordtalk goes talking about something he knows so little about.

Just because someone says that "Budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan" doesn't make it right anymore than if I quote from an article that says "No one can tithe today."

Investopedia explains Financial Plan
While there is no specific template for a financial plan, most licensed professionals will include knowledge and considerations of the client's future life goals, future wealth transfer plans and future expense levels. Extrapolated asset values will determine whether the client has sufficient funds to meet future needs.

A good financial plan can alert an investor to changes that must be made to ensure a smooth transition through life's financial phases, such as decreasing spending or changing asset allocation. Financial plans should also be fluid, with occasional updates when financial changes occur

I DON'T SEE THE WORD BUDGET USED, DO YOU?

garyarnold:

There wordtalk goes talking about something he knows so little about.

Without an accounting certification, I know enough to know your claims are nothing short of a sham.

Just because someone says that "Budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan" doesn't make it right anymore than if I quote from an article that says "No one can tithe today."

Everyone including Investopedia knows that "Budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan" - the only person so far who doesn't know that is YOU! Yet, inspite of your eclat, you're still struggling to show the contrary!

[i]Investopedia explains Financial Plan
While there is no specific template for a financial plan, most licensed professionals will include knowledge and considerations of the client's future life goals, future wealth transfer plans and future expense levels. Extrapolated asset values will determine whether the client has sufficient funds to meet future needs.

Please read my lips: what do the highlighted words mean to you other than a description of 'budget'? Just because that quote does not spell out 'budget' in A-B-C fashion, you seem to be totally at loss of its meaning? How do you "determine whether the client has sufficient funds to meet furture needs"?

Let me help you from the same INVESTOPEDIA site (take note of the emphasis, all mine) -

What is budgeting? Basically, it's making sure that you're spending less than you're bringing in and planning for both the short- and long-term.

Unfortunately, many people think of budgeting as depriving themselves and they avoid it like they do a diet. However, just like a diet is really just a program for eating, budgeting is just a program for spending. If you are hitting a mental roadblock when you hear the word "budget", just call it by a different name, such as "personal financial planning." That's what budgeting is, after all. It's a proactive approach, rather than a reactive approach, to managing your money.

[size=14pt]Budgeting is an important component of financial success[/size]. It's not difficult to implement, and it's not just for people with limited funds. Budgeting makes it easier for people with incomes and expenses of all sizes to make conscious decisions about how they'd prefer to allocate their money. It can also help people save for retirement, emergencies, a new car or just about anything. For many people, having a solid budget in place, knowing how much money they have and knowing exactly where that money is going makes it easier for them to sleep at night.

http://www.investopedia.com/university/budgeting/

Sir, did you get the gist? If you missed them from the highlight, let me tie just two pertinent points for you below -

1. Budgeting is an important component of financial success

2. "personal financial planning" - that's what budgeting is, after all

That is from the same Investopedia site. If personal financial planning is what budgeting is after all, where do you magically get your brand of teaching finances that does not involve 'budget' at any level? If budgeting is AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT of financial success, how come you're making so much noise to exclude the one component that is essential in all this?

This is why I'm still waiting to see what crap you'd come out with at the end. Hit your panic button again.

I DON'T SEE THE WORD BUDGET USED, DO YOU?

That's because you lack reading skills. Again my comment: How do you "determine whether the client has sufficient funds to meet furture needs"? What does that explain and imply to you? Keep searching for what everyone already knows.

Maybe pastors and ministers see something in my finance teaching that wordtalk doesn't.  In fact, wordtalk has never taken a finance class from me but is fast to criticize my teaching.

A pastor at a Seventh-day Adventist church asked me to give a class in finances to a Bible Study group, which I did.  They liked it and complimented me on it.

A pastor at a Full Gospel Baptist Church asked me to give a class in finances, TWICE, to two different groups on a Saturday.  Most of the students were young ministers.  They liked it so much they asked the pastor if I could give more classes on finances to the whole church.

A pastor at a Church of God, after I had left that church, phoned me and asked if I would meet with a couple having financial problems to give them some finance wisdom.

The pastor at the Full Gospel Baptist Church invited me to join their team of ministers (since I am an ordained minister) but I refused because of our differences in interpretation of the tithe.

My financial advice saved many from losing their homes during the real estate meltdown.  Many months before the meltdown started, I was warning people that it was going to happen.  Those who followed my advice still own their homes.

So whether wordtalk thinks I know what I am doing or not, those who personally know me trust my knowledge and advice.

I am done talking about finances here.  We are off topic.

Joagbaje:

You're not making any sense , if I may say

Does God's commands make any sense to you? If they do you won't be collecting tithes

My Friend, you no dey read bible? what else do you want to give as your titht offering? your goat or your car or your what. Please go and pay your tithe1

garyarnold:

Maybe pastors and ministers see something in my finance teaching that wordtalk doesn't.  In fact, wordtalk has never taken a finance class from me but is fast to criticize my teaching.

1. I'm not criticizing your 'teaching', since you have not demonstrated such a teaching of finances without involving budget at any level. At least one other person has asked you to show that teaching, but you wooshed it aside with fanciful words.

2.  I can't imagine myself taking a class from someone who's mumbling and prevaricating in the same breath - and since that's what you do, don't expect me to subscribe.

3.  I've actually taken accounting as an elective course during my first degree in the Social Sciences; and all what we're discussing is the very first thing we learnt in financial planning - which is why I have repeatedly noted that 'Budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan'. Your task was to show me how that is wrong, and hence prove that people who deal with finances have got it all wrong ever since! The only difference is that I never made any claim of holding an accounting certification (such as Chartered Market Technician (CMT) or Certified Financial Planner (CFP)). However, I know from all this that you're trying to sell snakeoil to the unsuspecting reader with your claims of teaching finances without involving budget.

So whether wordtalk thinks I know what I am doing or not, those who personally know me trust my knowledge and advice.

None of them would have had the common sense to ask you the same question we've been asking you - so that eases things for you. However, we know there's no smart financial plan that can escape involving budget. The one thing that perhaps could be said on your behalf is that you were actually teaching budget even though you avoided using that word! The Investopedia quote earlier highlighted could help explain your plight - "If you are hitting a mental roadblock when you hear the word "budget", just call it by a different name, such as "personal financial planning." That's what budgeting is, after all."

So, you might as well have been calling it by a different name, rather than trying to blow smokescreen in our faces about all this.

I am done talking about finances here.  We are off topic.

That's plain silly! Did anyone ask you about finance before you started all this crap? If you wanted to advertise your trade, look up the relevant section on the forum and post your porridge there!

I gave myself to the Lord. I serve the Lord. I don't need to advertise a service that I give FREE. I only give finance classes IN PERSON, not on the internet. And charge NOTHING.

Now it's time for wordtalk to say since you charge nothing, people are getting exactly what they pay for. Kind of remark wordtalk would make.

Now it's time for wordtalk to say since you charge nothing, people are getting exactly what they pay for. Kind of remark wordtalk would make.

Don't get all jittery and start putting words in my mouth, since I did not appoint you as my amanuensis or scribe.

garyarnold:

I gave myself to the Lord. I serve the Lord. I don't need to advertise a service that I give FREE. I only give finance classes IN PERSON, not on the internet. And charge NOTHING.

Dude, nobody is subscribing to your brand of 'finance classes' on the internet especially as you can't charge anything for free sham. You made a laughable statement that you have not been able to reconcile with what everyone already knows. The info I've drawn from various sources are FREE, and the best part - I charge NOTHING!

@garyarnold,
i think i get your point.
However, you remind me of a doctor trying to 'sell' a bitter pill to a child, you call it it's synonym because it makes it more appealing and magical and this actually takes away the child's fear of this pill.
Many people get turned off by having to budget so you just repackaged it in fanciful wrapping and 'sold' it to them.
You sold them the same budget but gave it a 'fly name'.
It's all good.
Afterall, you removed the 'budget' fear and made it fun, so it worked for them (as you claimed).

In summary, i get the jist. Financial planning is 'sugar-coated' budgeting.

The might of MEEKNESS vs might of budget.


Proverbs 16:32

32He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.


We spend so many pages of budget that even Governments don't follow their own budgets let alone individuals, I would think we have better things to do than fight over whether budget is an essential part of any financial plan or not, DISCIPLINE (fiscal and otherwise) is a Christian value if you ask me.

ogajim:

We spend so many pages of budget that even Governments don't follow their own budgets let alone individuals, I would think we have better things to do than fight over whether budget is an essential part of any financial plan or not,

Nobody would have been talking about budget and/or financial planning, etc. if garyarnold did not bring it up. There's nothing wrong with someone expressing an opinion; but to try and embellish intentionally misleading fables in the hope of sounding 'smart' is just plain dumb!