simmy:

Please read your bible in full before making arbritary statements ok? The new testament explains very clearly excactly how Christ amended the laws of the old testament. Nobody (at least i don't) grudges the homosexuals a right to live but i do take offence when they want to attend MY church and tell me to my face that MY God made them the way they are when He explicitly tells me in His book that He does not condone such a thing.

My dear simmy, you are BOLD! And I couldn't have said it any better. When the question of marriage was brought before Jesus in Matt.19:3-6, there was something striking in His answers. For one thing, Jesus categorically stated that what God had joined together, let not man put asunder (verse 6). The question is, who did God join together - man + man (homosexual union) or man + woman (heterosexual union)? I suppose that anyone trying to justify the gay lifestyle will look for any excuse to debate Jesus' straight answers in the scripture above.

zebudaya:

scientists say a lot of stuff, science said the world was flat, and killed everybody who said it was round.

Actually that's not true, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth. What is surprising though is the fact some christian literalists still hold to the belief that the Earth is flat, see here: http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm, for a stellar example.

P.S. the idea of scientists killing people who don't hold to their findings, is ridiculous at best. What you may be referring to, is the Church's actions against scientists who held that our system was heliocentric. Remember Galileo?

simmy:

Please read your bible in full before making arbritary statements ok? The new testament explains very clearly excactly how Christ amended the laws of the old testament. Nobody (at least i don't) grudges the homosexuals a right to live but i do take offence when they want to attend MY church and tell me to my face that MY God made them the way they are when He explicitly tells me in His book that He does not condone such a thing.

So what are you suggesting? If I follow this line of thinking then someone who comes in to your church and is a closet homosexual will be ok with you? I've had in depth discussions with my brother, a minister, about the whole concept of homosexuality and what his response to it was. His statements were, "I believe that some people are born that way, but I believe that it may be a manifestation of sins from past generations." So yes, I wholeheartedly believe some people are born that way, which would mean that yes, God made them that way. Do I believe they should practice? No, they should lead celibate lives if they are Christians, if they are not Christians then they can do what they want because they don't follow the same moral code. We all have things that we must struggle to overcome in this life because we are human and we are weak (ie alcoholism, drug abuse, medical problems, physical/emotional abuse).

And last time I checked there aren't many gay people who would willingly go to church and tell someone God made them that way, mostly because they would probably be killed for voicing that belief. Oh, and the comment about Leviticus was directed at the people who seem to be using that passage as the only basis for their argument. If you want to base an entire argument on the Bible, I'm sure you can find more useful passages than that one which is surrounded by plenty of other rules we don't follow anymore.

t4cash:

I am not for/against homosexuality but Shannon, please that "people choose their lifestyle" is not debatable. It may be an easy or a difficult choice but its a choice.

And also may I add, i know gay people.

So you can choose to be homosexual if you want? You can just wake up one morning and say I'm going to choose to be gay from now on, and you'll suddenly be attracted to the same sex people around you instead of the opposite sex? I'm sorry to say it's not that easy. Maybe I should rephrase that statement, people do not choose who they are attracted to, they choose how they act upon those attractions. Honestly, I would much rather have someone realize that they have homosexual attractions and live a celibate life (if they're Christian) than have them try to pretend those attractions don't exist and marry/have children.

Shannon:

So what are you suggesting? If I follow this line of thinking then someone who comes in to your church and is a closet homosexual will be ok with you? I've had in depth discussions with my brother, a minister, about the whole concept of homosexuality and what his response to it was. His statements were, "I believe that some people are born that way, but I believe that it may be a manifestation of sins from past generations." So yes, I wholeheartedly believe some people are born that way, which would mean that yes, God made them that way. Do I believe they should practice? No, they should lead celibate lives if they are Christians, if they are not Christians then they can do what they want because they don't follow the same moral code. We all have things that we must struggle to overcome in this life because we are human and we are weak (ie alcoholism, drug abuse, medical problems, physical/emotional abuse).

And last time I checked there aren't many gay people who would willingly go to church and tell someone God made them that way, mostly because they would probably be killed for voicing that belief. Oh, and the comment about Leviticus was directed at the people who seem to be using that passage as the only basis for their argument. If you want to base an entire argument on the Bible, I'm sure you can find more useful passages than that one which is surrounded by plenty of other rules we don't follow anymore.

the world has gone MAD!!!!!!!
i challenge anyone to come out and say he has never had a"HOMOSEXUAL" thought!! or an INCESTOUS one or a MURDEROUS one or a PEDOPHILIC one. true some may have these feeling more intensly than others just as some people tend to get more angry than others or feel music more intensely than others. But this does not give u the right to sleep with ur sister, kill ur neighbour, rape ur neighbours baby. why is incest and pedophilia against the law are they not "sexual preferences"

Gay people should stop givin the excuse that they are made that way and they cant help themselves. the child molester cant help himself too but we throw him in prison. i feel their pain, some were "born" that way, scientist can even trace genetic links to homosexuality but they can trace it to every other form of crimiinality too including bestiality but that does not change the fact that they are an abberation, they are psycologically flawed like the wide range of flaws in all human beigns. God did not make man flawed, man's sin made man flawed. the same sin that made some people born with cancer made some people born with a craving that is morally and biologically WRONG. If homosexuality was natural life would have ceased to exist eons ago

So all u gay guys out there get over urself and find a cure for ur disease, i wont judge u or crucify u just like i wont crucify someone with ebola, i will just tell him to stay away and try and get help. the only reason this argument exist at all is that a person suffering fron a disease wants to be well but all u gays out there are enjoying anal orgasmia so much u dont care if ur conscience is condemning u

@xkape

What exactly was your issue with my post in particular? Or did you fail to read the numerous other posts which outright argue against the Bible saying that homosexuality is wrong. And how can you say you don't judge or crucify and then say they have a disease?

@shannon
sorry love i have nothing against ur post in particular, just the last one i read (obviously)
anyone can catch a disease, u may say its not their fault but it would be thier fault if the dont do anythin about it and spread it to other people. and yes, homosexuality is infectous,socially infectous, see what all the gay artists, scientists and film makers have done to us all. its called social manipulation, they have convinced us there is nothing wrong with it so more people "come out of the closet" than ever before where they would have tried to deal with it as a perversion. and we all have our own pet perversions

Shannon:

So what are you suggesting? If I follow this line of thinking then someone who comes in to your church and is a closet homosexual will be ok with you? I've had in depth discussions with my brother, a minister, about the whole concept of homosexuality and what his response to it was. His statements were, "I believe that some people are born that way, but I believe that it may be a manifestation of sins from past generations." So yes, I wholeheartedly believe some people are born that way, which would mean that yes, God made them that way.

Shanon, your opinions do not make a strong case for the gay position, nor for the Christian perspective. Just because your minister brother told you something does not mean he is correct, and it is very childish to base your convictions that 'God made them that way' on the premise of your discussions with your brother. That is based only on what he feels - not on what the Bible says.

There is no scientifically established data that empirically claim people are born gay. Scientists in the field of sexology are constantly challenging that notion and the standing conclusion is that they cannot empirically verify (at this time) the claim that there is such a thing as a 'gay gene', although research is ongoing.

Shannon:

Do I believe they should practice? No, they should lead celibate lives if they are Christians, if they are not Christians then they can do what they want because they don't follow the same moral code. We all have things that we must struggle to overcome in this life because we are human and we are weak (ie alcoholism, drug abuse, medical problems, physical/emotional abuse).

Even your recommendations of gay people remaining celebate falls far short of common sense. Just because a 'Christian' finds he/she is gay does not mean that he/she could not get married and enjoy a heterosexual union. There is no moral code in the Bible that stipulates celebacy for such 'Christians' just because they are gay.

Shannon:

And last time I checked there aren't many gay people who would willingly go to church and tell someone God made them that way, mostly because they would probably be killed for voicing that belief. Oh, and the comment about Leviticus was directed at the people who seem to be using that passage as the only basis for their argument. If you want to base an entire argument on the Bible, I'm sure you can find more useful passages than that one which is surrounded by plenty of other rules we don't follow anymore.

I think you're stretching your notions too far by suggesting that gay people who go to church and tell people God made them that way 'would probably be killed for voicing that belief.' Such a case does not exist in the real world because evangelical Christians don't function as murderers - there are hundreds of churches who seek to bring help to gays as best they could so that these people could live a normal life - my church is one of them. We have not been able to help everyone; but I know a few gay people who readily take the slightest opportunity to attack churches that preach on anything concerning the homosexual situation: I have witnessed this first hand both in America and in Sweden.

Lastly, please could you share your thoughts on what you really think the Leviticus verses teach? I'd really appreciate your views, and what do you think the New Testament says on such matters? Is there any scriptural foundation to support your view that 'God made people gay'? Just a few thoughts for you, because I was beginning to be challenged by your assertions and wonder if you have any substance to them.

Many thanks.

I'd be glad to tell you all about them, but for the moment I've got a personal issue to deal with so it'll have to wait for a bit. No worries though, I'll attempt to explain as best I can at some point here.

Many thanks, Shannon. I'll be patiently looking out for your reply.

simmy:

The new testament explains very clearly excactly how Christ amended the laws of the old testament. [/b]Nobody (at least i don't) grudges the homosexuals a right to live but i do take offence when they want to attend MY church and tell me to my face that MY God made them the way they are when He explicitly tells me in His book that He does not condone such a thing.

I am interested to know "exactly how Christ amended the laws". Please provide passages as you have in the past.

choice.A:

My dear simmy, you are BOLD! And I couldn't have said it any better. When the question of marriage was brought before Jesus in Matt.19:3-6, there was something striking in His answers. For one thing, Jesus categorically stated that what God had joined together, let not man put asunder (verse 6). The question is, who did God join together - [b]man + man (homosexual union) or man + woman (heterosexual union)? I suppose that anyone trying to justify the gay lifestyle will look for any excuse to debate Jesus' straight answers in the scripture above.

In my opinion, marriage & homosexuality are 2 different topics. I do not understand how Matt. 19:3-6 relates to homosexuals. From your post, they are the same or interconnected to you. Can you explain this (as I do not follow you)? Regardless of sexual orientation, is it necessary for everyone to marry? What is your position on nuns, priests, spinsters and the like? And how do they relate to homosexuals?

Shannon:

If you're not reading the whole book and following every rule explicitly I really don't feel you have the right to throw that one small portion in someone's face.

@ Everyone

I've witnessed debates like this before and when someone says something like Shannon did above, it's always the one thing that make the "righteous" men (i.e, those who judge & throw stones at their brethren) run and hide. Many ppl picked her post apart but left that sentence alone. Just an observation.

chinani:

In my opinion, marriage & homosexuality are 2 different topics. I do not understand how Matt. 19:3-6 relates to homosexuals. From your post, they are the same or interconnected to you. Can you explain this (as I do not follow you)? Regardless of sexual orientation, is it necessary for everyone to marry? What is your position on nuns, priests, spinsters and the like? And how do they relate to homosexuals?

chinani,

Thank you so much for your patience in my reply. I'll find the time to post one before long so you could see my views from a Christian perspective. Very much 'preciate your questions.

chinani,

I have tried to deal with the questions you raised in another thread, The Bible and Homosexuality: What Shall We Do? (find here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-8611.0.html ). I still have yet to deal with the last part of your enquiry relating to nuns, priests, spinters, etc. but will do so soon enough.

Thank you again for the wait.

Now I can deal with the other questions you raised here.

chinani:

In my opinion, marriage & homosexuality are 2 different topics. I do not understand how Matt. 19:3-6 relates to homosexuals. From your post, they are the same or interconnected to you. Can you explain this (as I do not follow you)?

You're right in stating that marriage and homosexuality are 2 different topics - but that is only an artificial supposition as far as sexual unions/partnerships involving same-sex marriages have been an ongoing public debate in the West of late. In that context, one cannot contend that discussions about marriage are far removed from homosexuality.

chinani:

Regardless of sexual orientation, is it necessary for everyone to marry? What is your position on nuns, priests, spinsters and the like? And how do they relate to homosexuals?

Again, society is permissble and tolerant to just about anything under the sun. It is not necessary for everyone to marry when taking into consideration that some people have no sexual inclinations: "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that."[1Cor. 7:7]. However, the Bible recommends for believers that the only context in which sexual activities are engaged in is marriage. Sex outside one's marriage is a sin and goes by several names: fornication and adultery among others - "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.__For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication." (I Cor.6:18 and I Thes.4:3). "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." (I Cor. 7:2). This would also apply to spinsters - let them get married and enjoy God's gift of healthy sex:

"But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.__ But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry." (I Cor.7:9 & 36).

With regards to some who have taken up a disposition to remain celebate (nuns, priests, etc) in their Christian ministry, I'd rather say that celebacy is not a Biblical prerequisite for ministry. The religious order of nuns and priests have more to do with Catholic tradition that makes celebacy one of the rigid stipulations for ministry; but I think this is a grave mistake. Rather, leaders (bishops, deacons, elders, etc) in the Church are encouraged to get married - I Tim.3:2 &12 and Tit.1:6. Perhaps, there is some substance to the thought that celebacy forced upon people is partly responsible for the shameful sins that have ensued in Christian history.

As regards how celebacy relates to homosexuality, it is to be understood from my answers on homosexuality in the other thread (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-8611.0.html ) that the latter is not a prescriptive norm in Christian living. Consequently, from the foregoing here, celebacy is also not prescriptive for Christian living or ministry where the people involved are not eunuchs.


People struggling with homosexuality is a reality that is very painful because of the social and cultural stigma connected with the lifestyle. I do not subscribe to the interpretation that the Bible condemns people or promotes homophobia towards people - because it is my firm belief that people are first and foremost people; and in that context, the Christian is to seek to understand their pains and experiences with a view to being practical and relevant in providing help and a better understanding of life from the Biblical perspective. It is the practice/lifestyle that is more the problem discountenanced in Scripture. Fortunately, so many people have been helped and their change of disposition is a testimony that, despite the deep struggles they face, it is possible to choose not to be gay.

Shannon:

So you can choose to be homosexual if you want? You can just wake up one morning and say I'm going to choose to be gay from now on, and you'll suddenly be attracted to the same sex people around you instead of the opposite sex? I'm sorry to say it's not that easy. Maybe I should rephrase that statement, people do not choose who they are attracted to, they choose how they act upon those attractions. Honestly, I would much rather have someone realize that they have homosexual attractions and live a celibate life (if they're Christian) than have them try to pretend those attractions don't exist and marry/have children.

AS I said in my post, some decisions are difficult, but in the end, we choose the way we are. "We are made in God's image" refers to the little sovereignty God left man. IN FACT living is by choice. We are the only living being that can choose to commit suicide. I wonder why this thread is still going on? Did God make him gay? No. Because even if God made him gayish, he has chosen to act on it.

Well said, t4cash.

t4cash:

AS I said in my post, some decisions are difficult, but in the end, we choose the way we are. "We are made in God's image" refers to the little sovereignty God left man. IN FACT living is by choice. We are the only living being that can choose to commit suicide. I wonder why this thread is still going on? Did God make him gay? No. Because even if God made him gayish, he has chosen to act on it.

People should pls stop saying GOD made anybody gay or gayish. God is not responsible for any of the flaws found in humanity, we are.

hey SPIKED CYLINDER, when i said "screwed up", i did not mean that in a derogatory way and if thats all you got out of my comment, then ur loss. im am in no way anti gay as you can see in my comment (if u even read it). if u need me to explaiin further then let me know.

and to everyone that keep using that bible as their defense, keep on doing what u do, i jus think it not fair to impose ur belief into other people by force. God did not make us all the same. and everyone should be allowed to live anyway they want as long as it does not interfere with u ur community and ur family. give everyone a break and maybe this world will be a better place. u all can kiss my ass hahahahahah

No Christian is imposing his/her belief on anyone. We have not said gays should not live; but when someone insists that 'God' in the Christian faith is responsible for what infact He detests, we are being challenged to face up to that misconception - and there's not a more effective way to show this than from the Bible. If that's too tough for you to handle, then let be.

@ choice.A

Thank you for responding to my questions. I've read your above response and as well as those on the other thread.

Welcome anytime, chinani

cracks

If everything that happens in life is God's will, then God obviously made him gay.

If God had nothing to do with him being gay, then everything that happens cannot be according to the will of God.

And if this is the case, then the probability of nothing being the will of God increases.

l have refuse to belive that @allloym

allonym:

If everything that happens in life is God's will, then God obviously made him gay.

If God had nothing to do with him being gay, then everything that happens cannot be according to the will of God.

And if this is the case, then the probability of nothing being the will of God increases.

Logic! Logic! Logic! However, it's just a poor tool.

There's a clear divide between what is called God's will and the rebellion of man. Man's rebellion and evil are definite events of our everyday experiences among many other things; but is that the will of God? If 'everything' and 'nothing' is blamed on God without asking man to take responsibility for his evil actions, what kind of world would we be living in today?

It is clear that if God has nothing to do with someone's being rebellious or evil*, then not everything that happens could be the will of God, especially when the event is contrary to His will. This is not the same thing as saying 'everything that happens cannot be according to the will of God.' The distinction is subtle. While not trying to think for you, it sounds like you're saying because God had "nothing" to do with someone's being gay, therefore He "can not" do "everything"; so if God cannot do everything, then the probability increases that He can do "nothing."

You're trying to establish a narrow probability on a skewed hypothesis. Your logic does not follow. The use of 'nothing' and 'everything' does not put God outside of other events - and just because one event is contrary to His will does not mean that everything is thereby contrary to His will.



*for the sake of illustrations, 'rebellious and evil' should not be taken in my post as synonyms for 'gay'.

Ok,

So, you are saying that SOME things that happen are NOT the will of God? In fact, even if you are saying that, that still does not rule out some BAD things being the will of God does it?

So, since God and Satan can be authors of good and evil things, to us humans, there ultimately is no difference between the two.

This topic is about the argument that God made someone gay - not about the nature or character of God. If you invite me to another thread to discuss the latter, I'll gladly take you on there - as I've asked that you state your premise, and you danced around corners.

Even then, I wonder how you read or misread threads - please, could you quote any line where I wrote that Satan can be the author of good and evil things? Or, you just wanted to stretch your weak logic again?

Good for you if there ultimately is no difference between your own version of 'God' and 'Satan'. As far as I know, there is a very marked difference between the two in my faith and in several others that I've researched: Islam, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, etc. You may not agree with my views about who or what God is, nor should I be obliged to measure Him by your logic, especially when your logic does not make good sense.

since you all seem to believe in god it's mandatory you believe in satan as well

That's not the issue. If you believe in Satan and make no distinction between him and God, fine with you. That doesn't apply to everyone.