Pastor AIO:

Please how does the book of Hebrew show that there is an accord between the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul.

I dont know, perhaps you should take time to read it.

davidylan:

I dont know, perhaps you should take time to read it.

You don't know, but your are making the claim. This leaves me wondering how many other claims you make from a position of sheer ignorance.

As it happens I have read the letter to the Hebrews and I do not recall any point therein that tallies with what Jesus taught in his lifetime. It is for this reason that I would like for you to point out the chapters and verses in the book of Hebrews and in the gospel of Jesus that tally idea for idea, if not word for word.

It is good to see Christians rigourously and scholarly annalyzind the basis of their faith, if anything, at least God will guide those who really seek the truth towards it and live the blind to wallow in their self inlflicted ignorance. Keep the good job up.

Pastor AIO:

You don't know, but your are making the claim. This leaves me wondering how many other claims you make from a position of sheer ignorance.

As it happens I have read the letter to the Hebrews and I do not recall any point therein that tallies with what Jesus taught in his lifetime. It is for this reason that I would like for you to point out the chapters and verses in the book of Hebrews and in the gospel of Jesus that tally idea for idea, if not word for word.

You wouldnt know sarcasm if it hit you in the face.
If you have read the book of Hebrews and dont see how it tallies with anything Jesus Christ taught then too bad, its more evidence that reading the bible like a novel is a wasted exercise.

Pastor AIO:

You don't know, but your are making the claim. This leaves me wondering how many other claims you make from a position of sheer ignorance.  

As it happens I have read the letter to the Hebrews and I do not recall any point therein that tallies with what Jesus taught in his lifetime.  It is for this reason that I would like for you to point out the chapters and verses in the book of Hebrews and in the gospel of Jesus that tally idea for idea, if not word for word.

How can you understand without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.   , you will just be perambulating this article without any meaningful conclusion.

You still have not come up with one teaching of Paul that is different from that of Christ , making random comments without any evidence is making an argument for the sake of it.

Don't waste your time here if you cannot even fulfill the basics , and remember when and if you do provide an example  , make sure the example is on a topic that both Christ or Paul preached .

@Frosbel: But the holy spirit is not promised to you! What a fraud you are! Read what Jesus said; holy spirit which is the hearing from God and speaking to man Another Comforter was restricted to the disciples. Not even the next generation which included Paul was promised any help of holy spirit.

Sweetnecta:

@Frosbel: But the holy spirit is not promised to you! What a fraud you are! Read what Jesus said; holy spirit which is the hearing from God and speaking to man Another Comforter was restricted to the disciples. Not even the next generation which included Paul was promised any help of holy spirit.

I know muslims are quite desperate people especially when it comes to discrediting christianity. But this desperate? I never knew.

^^ ignorant man. Show me a verse where Jesus promised you that holy spirit will ever reach you? You will try in vain. Just like you can't rise up to simple challenges of Laogosshia. You should be ashamed. And you are worshiping human God you can not prove his true God-ship. You are an idolater, mehn.

davidylan:

You wouldnt know sarcasm if it hit you in the face.
If you have read the book of Hebrews and dont see how it tallies with anything Jesus Christ taught then too bad, its more evidence that reading the bible like a novel is a wasted exercise.

Actually, I do know sarcasm.  I was just under the misconception that this was a serious discussion and that you actually had points to debate rather than resort to sarcasm.  But then that was because I forgot that I was dealing with Davidylan.  I don't know why I keep forgetting and taking you seriously.  Of course it is sarcasm.  That is what you resort to ALWAYS.  I don't know how these your pathetic ploys do not bore you to death.  

To simply debate a subject point for point is so hard for you, and somehow you feel the right to do bragadocio, even to the point of claiming to have phd, as if a phd in cookery has anything to do with biblical scholarship.  To be honest I very much doubt that you even have any learning to that level sef.  

For instance look at the way your contributions to this thread have progressed.

We are discussing the teaching of jesus and paul.  You say:

Anyone that is interested in understanding the place of the old testament laws in relation to the new covenant under grace should read the book of Hebrews. Brilliant exposition there.

So you've come in totally off topic.  No wahala, maybe there is some connection somewhere along the line.  I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt cos I forgot just how daft your arguments are.  

So I ask you:
Please how does the book of Hebrew show that there is an accord between the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul.  

and you respond with sarcasm!!  You are a deranged man.  I don't even think that you can think straight.

Sweetnecta:

^^ ignorant man. Show me a verse where Jesus promised you that holy spirit will ever reach you? You will try in vain. Just like you can't rise up to simple challenges of Laogosshia. You should be ashamed. And you are worshiping human God you can not prove his true God-ship. You are an idolater, mehn.

Please read Acts 2. Just one more noisy mohammedan yelling "show me a verse".

Pastor AIO:

Actually, I do know sarcasm.  I was just under the misconception that this was a serious discussion and that you actually had points to debate rather than resort to sarcasm.

You must be joking. A serious discussion with ignorant blowhards like "pastor" AIO? That's a complete waste of time.

Pastor AIO:

 But then that was because I forgot that I was dealing with Davidylan.  I don't know why I keep forgetting and taking you seriously.  Of course it is sarcasm.  That is what you resort to ALWAYS.  I don't know how these your pathetic ploys do not bore you to death.  

I havent taken you seriously in well over 2 yrs . . . it didnt take me more than 3-5 posts to essentially conclude you have a very limited knowledge of the bible and barely understand its central message. Anyone who takes you seriously is just wasting their time.

Pastor AIO:

To simply debate a subject point for point is so hard for you, and somehow you feel the right to do bragadocio, even to the point of claiming to have phd, as if a phd in cookery has anything to do with biblical scholarship.  To be honest I very much doubt that you even have any learning to that level sef.  

Of course you are free to have an opinion.
Debating a subject point by point was a favorite past time 3-4 yrs ago. These days i restrict myself to posters and debates that interest me. There is no compulsion that i have to respond to the irrelevant noise making of those who feel they should be taken seriously despite their wide spiritual deficits.

Pastor AIO:

For instance look at the way your contributions to this thread have progressed.

We are discussing the teaching of jesus and paul.  You say:
So you've come in totally off topic.  No wahala, maybe there is some connection somewhere along the line.  I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt cos I forgot just how daft your arguments are.  

That again exposes the dearth of your own biblical knowledge. Despite lingering controversy, it is generally accepted that Paul is the likeliest author of the book of Hebrews. The book of hebrews is the most compelling biblical epistle that clearly casts the old testament laws as a foreshadowing of Christ's coming, gospel, death and resurrection.

Pastor AIO:

So I ask you:
Please how does the book of Hebrew show that there is an accord between the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul.  

and you respond with sarcasm!!  You are a deranged man.  I don't even think that you can think straight.  

There is no derangement there. As i said earlier, i dont generally waste my time with bloviating empty heads. Everyone has a right to choose who they respond to and how they do, no? I dont have to show you how the book of hebrews shows a clear accord between the teachings of Paul and that of Christ. In fact, that anyone doubts that Paul's teachings are in tandem with those of Christ has a serious problem and has no business pretending to be a christian - that person is clearly devoid of any spiritual guidance.

Like frosbel said earlier, you and your ilk have been bleating around asking others to "prove" to you that Paul taught the same gospel as Christ, where have you pointed us to AT LEAST ONE position where you believe Paul allegedly deviated?

The fact is that claims that Paul is contradicting Jesus are often based on fanciful, though maybe 'fashionable', "scholarship"; the fanciful claims have been well refuted in scholarship anyway. So it is not just a case that 'lay' Christians on a discussion forum are challenging "scholars" to prove the alleged contradictions.

I guess 'Pastor AIO' had nothing to contribute in the first place , no evidence, just a vague allegation.

@Davidylan; « #41 on: Today at 04:24:31 AM »
[Quote]Quote from: Sweetnecta on Today at 02:04:54 AM
^^ ignorant man. Show me a verse where Jesus promised you that holy spirit will ever reach you? You will try in vain. Just like you can't rise up to simple challenges of Laogosshia. You should be ashamed. And you are worshiping human God you can not prove his true God-ship. You are an idolater, mehn.

Please read Acts 2. Just one more noisy mohammedan yelling "show me a verse".[/Quote]You mean I have to read a whole Chapter to fish out a verse you easily could have quoted for all to see and probably shut me up? I see. No wonder none of you christians can rise up to the challenge of Lagosshia.

@Enigma and Frosbel; Jesus predicted that the Another Comforter to man, especially his community of believers who believed like him about God being one, that Another Comforter will be human like previous comforters. They all heard from God and spoke what they heard to man, without addition or subtraction.

This Another Comforter that will come after Jesus will be the final one and he will rectify all the conditions by laying out the final and direct path that is straight and the only one to God Almighty. The another comforter will do this by the Commandments of God, hearing from Him and repeating what he has heard in Commandments of God to man, as the latest and last covenant to man, not just a people of few nations but to all peoples of human nations and even jinns. For man, the another comforter will correct and all incorrect opinions and understanding of God, His Angels, His Messengers and Prophets regardless of their creations, births, miracles, their lives and deaths, the religion given to them being the only religion acceptable.

The another comforter will lead to all truth. He will glorify Jesus by proving that his mother was not a prostitute as the jews even say to this day and caution the christians that not having a father is not therefore making him a relative, son of God, because Adam did not have a father and never was incubated in any woman;s womb and we all agree he was created by God, why shall Jesus with being incubated in the womb of Mary is not a creation of God?

Paul developed opinions and concept about Jesus that parallel concepts of demi or human god that was already popular in the mythology of the romans and the greeks and all the pagan powers of the world, then. No wonder these people accepted the 3 gods, one human via virgin birth while the Jews rejected it.

Paul and christianity developed the original sin, while Judaism rejected it, still. Paul developed on that concept by saying Jesus was killed and his death and blood are enough as salvation cancelling out belief and obedience in the Words of God and doing good and shunning evil for His sake, all of them were practiced by Jesus himself. Paul rendered circumcision, dietary laws irrelevant. Paul labelled Another comforter now a non talking and obviously irrelevant to listen to God because Paul made him God, yet no one can tell us what he said to humans, in the matters of what Jesus said the another Comforter shall do.

No wonder many a disciple of Jesus disagreed with "apostle" Paul, until they were forced to abandon their position at least to the public and that is the weakest form of faith, if they only kept it in their hearts.

Quick bump to remind myself that I have to come back to this thread.

'interesting' exchanges. Which scholar's serving?

We shall be publishing a rigorous book on this very topic on May 1st, and will be happy to e-mail to interested readers here a pdf of this upcoming paperback book if you will agree in advance not to transmit it to anyone else and to use this pdf only for the purpose of reviewing this book, in this discussion-thread and/or elsewhere. Requests for this pdf should be sent to hyacintheditions@mail.com, with the words "pdf request" in the subject line.

                                        John Lawrence
Hyacinth Editions
POB 6568
N.Y., NY 10022
hyacintheditions@mail.com


HOLD FOR RELEASE UNTIL MAY 1, 2012:

[center]Could Christianity Have Started With A Hoax?[/center]

NYC, May 1, 2012 — Might Christianity have been created by the self-styled “apostle” Paul, and by his followers, instead of by Jesus?

Paul was the earliest Christian writer, before any of the Gospel-writers, and he admitted that he had never met the living Jesus. But no historian, until now, has considered whether the four Gospel-writers might actually have been his followers, instead of followers of Jesus. A book published today examines this very question, for the first time anywhere, and it concludes that Christianity was, indeed, started by Paul, in the year 49 or 50, about twenty years after Jesus’s death.

The Mencken award-winning investigative historian, Eric Zuesse, has applied modern legal-forensic methodology to analyze the evidence concerning Christianity’s start, and he has found that Christianity began when Paul perpetrated a coup d’etat against Jesus’s brother James, whom Jesus (a respected rabbi) had appointed to lead the Jewish sect that Jesus had actually started.

Zuesse’s book, published today, CHRIST’S VENTRILOQUISTS: The Event that Created Christianity, documents, from a letter by a participant, that this event culminated a 14-year-long conflict between Paul and James, concerning the question of whether the commandment from God, to Abraham, in Genesis 17:14, “No uncircumcised man will be one of my people,” pertained to Jesus’s followers. Paul said it didn’t; James finally concluded that it did – and this precipitated the split.

Over the prior 17 years, Paul had established many congregations whose members were not born Jews, and so they hadn’t been circumcised at birth (as other Jews were). CHRIST’S VENTRILOQUISTS notes that the medical operation of circumcision was excruciating and dangerous in the First Century, when anesthesia, antibiotics, and antiseptics, didn’t exist. Imposing it upon Paul’s adult male Gentile congregants would thus have driven many of Paul’s men to abandon the sect, to avoid the pain, and also to protect their safety. Paul’s 17-year career converting Gentiles to this Jewish sect would thus have turned to dust if circumcision were to be imposed.

Zuesse documents that right after the council in Jerusalem that’s described in Galatians 2:2-10, James sent Peter and other agents to Paul’s headquarters in Antioch, to tell Paul to require circumcision for his men. Paul, in Galatians 2:12-21, refused, and shocked everyone by asserting that God had replaced the Jewish covenant with a new, Christian, one, in which merely believing that Jesus was the Messiah or “Christ” was the path that God now set for a person’s salvation. This new path to heaven became the basic Christian doctrine; it had never been stated before. Paul invented it, on that occasion, in order to avoid losing his followers over the circumcision issue.

Zuesse documents that the four canonical Gospel accounts of “Jesus” were written by followers of Paul, not by followers of Jesus/James. None of the men who wrote those documents had ever met Jesus, and they were all followers of Paul, and enemies of Jesus’s followers. However, even those Gospel accounts referred to Jesus 13 times as “rabbi” (in addition to another 31 times referring to him more generically as “teacher”). Jesus’s followers (including Peter and all of the disciples) remained Jews, just as Jesus had. Jesus’s sect died out. Paul’s followers survived and increased, emerging as the Roman Catholic Church.

Among the pre-publication accolades, that Zuesse’s account of Jesus has received, is Bruce Chilton, head of the Institute for Advanced Theology at Bard College, and internationally recognized Jesus scholar, calling it “a winner.” And Rev. Steven Michael Smith of Colona United Methodist Church said, “It is surprising to me that this view of Paul has not been previously written.”

[center]###[/center]

Warning: This post is full of Ad Hominems so skip it if you don't like to read such.

davidylan:



You must be joking. A serious discussion with ignorant blowhards like "pastor" AIO? That's a complete waste of time.

So that's what it is. A waster just wasting his time in a thread with 'ignorant blowhards'. Attempting to waste my time too. you no fit. I'm making the points I want to make and all your attempts to 'waste time' only serve to expose you for what you are, A Braggart and a Liar.

I havent taken you seriously in well over 2 yrs . . . it didnt take me more than 3-5 posts to essentially conclude you have a very limited knowledge of the bible and barely understand its central message. Anyone who takes you seriously is just wasting their time.

Keeping wasting your life away. It's yours to do as you wish with.

Of course you are free to have an opinion.
Debating a subject point by point was a favorite past time 3-4 yrs ago. These days i restrict myself to posters and debates that interest me. There is no compulsion that i have to respond to the irrelevant noise making of those who feel they should be taken seriously despite their wide spiritual deficits.

You're not doing a good job of restricting yourself, are you, You empty boastful muppet?!

That again exposes the dearth of your own biblical knowledge. Despite lingering controversy, it is generally accepted that Paul is the likeliest author of the book of Hebrews. The book of hebrews is the most compelling biblical epistle that clearly casts the old testament laws as a foreshadowing of Christ's coming, gospel, death and resurrection.

Oops! are you still joking and wasting time, or are you actually trying to make a point? What is in the book of Hebrews that tallies with anything Jesus taught. Remember what the subject of this thread is, if you want to actually discuss seriously stay on topic. Show us what is in the book of Hebrews that can be found in the teachings of Jesus. When you bring that then we can discuss it. Till then you'll remain a waste.

There is no derangement there. As i said earlier, i dont generally waste my time with bloviating empty heads. Everyone has a right to choose who they respond to and how they do, no? I dont have to show you how the book of hebrews shows a clear accord between the teachings of Paul and that of Christ. In fact, that anyone doubts that Paul's teachings are in tandem with those of Christ has a serious problem and has no business pretending to be a christian - that person is clearly devoid of any spiritual guidance.

So why are you responding? You're responding just to show that you're too good to respond. What a vacuous braggart!!!


All you've been asked to do is show where Paul's teachings tally with Jesus', no one asked you who can or cannot pretend to be a christian. There are many here who are not christians at all. The person starting the thread calls himself a christian, are you too clever to answer his query?

Like frosbel said earlier, you and your ilk have been bleating around asking others to "prove" to you that Paul taught the same gospel as Christ, where have you pointed us to AT LEAST ONE position where you believe Paul allegedly deviated?

AT LEAST ONE??!! How many have you had already that you are now asking for at least one? Okay let me give you at least one.

JESUS

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

PAUL

the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

It took me so long to respond because I wanted to find some post to demonstrate this guys lack of integrity. Last time I had the misfortune to engage with him, he also failed to answer simple questions promising to return after he stopped being busy. It didn't stop him from posting in other forums ( romance section? etc), he just made himself scarce in the religion forum for a few days and then came back to continue his bloviating (at least thank you for that word. It's definately entering my vocabulary. It describes you perfectly.
Alas I put myself through the punishing task of trying to find the said thread that he promised to return to. what misery!! I couldn't continue. For a start the guy is so prolific in his bloviations. It was like trudging through a soakaway. I had to give up.

;d ;d ;d

Have you ever seen the film entitled "The Last Temptation Of Christ?" . The movie depicts Paul (the 13th self-appointed Apostle) as a hypocrite and a liar. (Everyone knows about Paul.) So-called religious leaders are afraid of this movie because it attacks Christians and exposes it for what it really is…a fallacy. They're afraid that people will sift it through and find the truth that they have kept hidden from you for too long.

This here is a classic.
Christian "purists" vs the world.
So much falsehood based on the OP one doesnt know where to start from.

Oga Frosbel, I hail you oh.
I may vote for you as religious poster of the year 2012

It is interesting that, apparently, no one here is interested in exploring "Could Christianity Have Started With A Hoax?"