goshen360:

This is the KEY to understand Matthew 23 vs 23. Tithe teachers had taken verse 23 out of context.

Matthew 23:1-3

v1. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples

v2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. (N.I.V)

v2. "The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. (NLT)

v2. Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (KJV)

v3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. (NIV)

v3. So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach (NLT)

v3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (KJV)

v4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. (NIV)

Then read verse 23 in context.

Jesus was recognizing ordained authority after the law of moses because he was still under the law during his days. Notice he told his disciples and the crowd, "DO NOT DO WHAT THEY DO" verse 3.

VERY CLEAR AND SIMPLE, IF THE PHARISEES AND TEACHERS OF THE LAW PAY TITHES, IN VERSE 23, JESUS WOULD BE SAYING TO HIS DISCIPLE NOT TO PAY TITHE AS IN VERSE 3.

Am out of here but might come back if need be. SHALOM !

garyarnold:

were all of the people not also meant to tithe?

Of course not. ONLY those that inherited the promised land that had crops and/or animals to tithe from. NO ONE ELSE TITHED.

goshen360:

This is the KEY to understand Matthew 23 vs 23. Tithe teachers had taken verse 23 out of context.

Matthew 23:1-3

v1. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples[/b)

v3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; [b]but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (KJV)

v4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. (NIV)

Then read verse 23 in context.

Jesus was recognizing ordained authority after the law of moses because he was still under the law during his days. Notice he told his disciples and the crowd, "DO NOT DO WHAT THEY DO" verse 3.

VERY CLEAR AND SIMPLE, IF THE PHARISEES AND TEACHERS OF THE LAW PAY TITHES, IN VERSE 23, JESUS WOULD BE SAYING TO HIS DISCIPLE NOT TO PAY TITHE AS IN VERSE 3.

Am out of here but might come back if need be. SHALOM !

garyarnold:

Abram wasn't a tither.  If there was a so-called spiritual law of tithing there would be more examples than a ONE-TIME event, from war spoils, NOT from his regular wealth or income.

Giving a tenth to the king was a custom.Was it a spiritual principle when the kings took the tithe?

why then do you do you have an issue when Jesus told the same Pharisees not to neglect tithing?

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

DOES Mathew 23:23(above) BUTRESS YOUR POINT THAT TITHE APPLY TO CHRISTIANS?  CAPITAL NO, WHY?

JESUS IS STRESSING THE 'OBLIGATION THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE LAW' also echoed by paul;

Joagbaje:

Melchizedek was merely a king? . How carnal of you? Melchizedek didn't recieve tithe as a king . He recieved tithes as high priest of that generation. Jesus was ranked with this guy.

Joagbaje:

Why would God say "ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK ".? What is "order" ? A structure. This tells us it wasn't a one time event.

Snowwy:

Of all the 'obligations that applied to the law' Jesus says mercy, faith and justice should be done WITHOUT neglecting tithe.

You said Jesus was stressing the 'obligation attached to the law' right?

Ok so are you saying that MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE are 'obligations attached to the law' only?

Of all the 'obligations that applied to the law' Jesus says mercy, faith and justice should be done WITHOUT neglecting tithe.

Or you mean when Jesus died he nailed Mercy, Faith & Justice to the cross along with tithe?

 if you confirm to me with scripture that Jesus has done away with mercy, faith and Justice, then you will have enough backing to prove tithe has been done away with, however as long as Jesus said mercy faith and justice should be done along with tithe you cannot seperate them. I await your scriptural backing to that effect.

I think the reason you continue to stick to Mathew 23:23 is because you refused to understand that the tithing practice being referred to in that particular verse can only be performed by a Jew. The practice was restricted to the levitical priesthood (as beneficiary). To adhere to Christ command, you'll need to find a Levi priest. Mercy, faith & justice does apply to Christians because they were not restricted to the levitical priesthood. The apostles continued to talk about mercy, faith & justice after the death of Christ.

BERNIMOORE:

[b]@Snowwy,

YES, THE OBLIGATION STATES PARTICULARLY TO THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW THAT;

James 2:10
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.


SO, THE OBLIGATION ''IS DECREED TOGETHER'' OR 'INTERWOVEN' IF YOU MUST KEEP ONE, YOU MUST KEEP WHOLE.
.

CAPITAL YES, BECAUSE WHAT CONSTITUTES THE TERMS OR DEFINATION OF MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE UNDER THE LAW ARE CLEARLY STATED,DECREED AND CODED,THERE WAS AN ACTUAL BINDING TERMS.

SO IT IS ACTUALLY ATTACHED TO THE LAW ABSOLUTELY AS CONTAINED IN THE LAW AND BOUND BY THE PARTIES (GOD AND JEWS) ONLY 'IF THEY KEEP THEIR PART, GOD TOO WILL KEEP HIS OWN PART)

ITS BLESSING ALONG WITH MALLEDICTION,OR CONSEQUENCIES OF FAILURE;

HOW DO I MEAN;

1,JUSTICE(under law);

DEMANDS,FOR EXAMPLE, JUSTICE UNDER LAW ALSO INCLUDES;EYE FOR AN EYE, IF A CHILD MAKES A VERBAL ABUSE OR REBELS TO HIS PARENTS,HE MUST SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH,BY STONNING.

THAT THE 'ACT' OF EXECUTION MUST BE CARRIED OUT BECAUSE THE CHILD HAS BROKEN A CODED LAW JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE TO THE CODED LAW.

2,MERCY(under law); ONE OF THE DEMANDS IS THAT WHEN YOU HARVEST YOUR FARM OR FIELD,YOU ARE BOUND TO LEAVE LEFT OVERS FOR THE POOR, FAILURE TO DO THAT, 'YOUR OBSERVATION OF HARVEST WILL NOT BE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD' SO, YOUR HARVEST IS IN FUTILITY BECAUSE YOU HAVE FAILED TO SHOW MERCY.

lev 23:22;
"When you harvest the grain in your land, don't harvest the grain in the corners of your fields or gather what is left after you're finished. Leave it for poor people and foreigners. I am the LORD your God."


3,FAITH;ALSO DEMANDS full obedience and not doubting God.

God's promise to Abraham included a promise that He would give them the land of Canaan, but that promise was conditional upon their faith and obedience to Him. The consequence of their disobedience was the annihilation of northern Israel.

JESUS DID NOT NECCESARILY STOP 'AN EXISTING LAW ON TITHE' BINDING ON ONLY JEWS WHICH JESUS HIMSELF MET,BUT BECAUSE HIS COMING WILL NOT ONLY PUT AN END TO 'TITHING DEMANDED BY LAW' BUT THE WHOLE ENTIRE 'BINDING WRITTEN LAW' IS ABOUT TO END.

SINCE THE DEFINATONS OF MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE IS CONFINED IN A PARTICULAR INTERPRETATION TO SUIT THOSE UNDER THE LAW COVENANT, THE APPLICATION OF MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE AS STATED IN THE TERMS OF THE LAW COVENANT HAS 'BEEN DONE AWAY WITH' OR 'ENDED'

BECAUSE IT HAS FAILED TO ACHIEVE THE PURPOSE OF BRINGING MAN INTO PERFECTION.

JESUS NOW COMES WITH HOPE, AND A NEW COVENANT;

NOTE,IF A PARTICULAR CONTRACT IS VOIDED OR NULIFIED, THE TERMS OF AGREEMENTS OF THE NEW AGREEMENT MAY ALSO CONTAIN PART, OR A FEW PORTIONS OF THE OLD AGREEMENT TO ALSO FORM NEW TERMS OF AGREEMENT WITHOUT NECCESARILY 'RE INSTATE' THE NULIFIED OR VOIDED AGREEMENT IN ANYWAYWHATSOEVER.



YOU NEED TO NOW AS A MATHER OF FACT DEFINE WHAT YOU MEAN BY MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE, BECAUSE SINCE THE DEFINATONS OF MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE IS CONFINED INTO A PARTICULAR INTERPRETATION WITH 'COMPLICATED TERMS' TO SUIT THOSE UNDER THE LAW COVENANT.


[/b]

Zikkyy:

I think the reason you continue to stick to Mathew 23:23 is because you refused to understand that the tithing practice being referred to in that particular verse can only be performed by a Jew. The practice was restricted to the levitical priesthood (as beneficiary). To adhere to Christ command, you'll need to find a Levi priest. Mercy, faith & justice does apply to Christians because they were not restricted to the levitical priesthood. The apostles continued to talk about mercy, faith & justice after the death of Christ.

Snowwy:

Neither was tithe restricted to the levitical priesthood.

Snowwy:

Neither was tithe restricted to the levitical priesthood.

Snowwy:

Thanks, you just concluded the discussion.

So you want me to believe that the Justice that Jesus was requesting from the Pharisees in this case was the 'EYE for an EYE' justice as welll as stoning of children that rebel against their parents?

If he was referring to the 'justice' of OT, why did he not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned?

It is hilarious when you try t explain 'Mercy (under the law). From the scripture that you mentioned, I would have thought you would have used that to define giving to the poor.

Micah 6:8: He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

I DONT NEED TO QUOTE YOUR VERSE BECAUSE SINCE IT IS OLD TEST. IT MUST AGREE.BUT FOR EMPHASIS SAKE, I WILL APPLY IT BASED ON WHAT I HAVE SAID BEFORE,AND IT WILL WORK;

YOU WILL SEE THAT IT AGREES WITH THE OLD TESTAMENT;, IF YOU DID NOT BREAK THE RULES HARSHNESS PART DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU.BECAUSE YOU ARE DOING WHAT GOD DEMANDED FROM YOU,YOU WILL RECEIVE GODS BLESSING FOR KEEPING YOUR PART,(O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?).BLESSING IS RECEIVED AS A FUNCTION OF YOUR OBEDIENCE UNDER LAW. REVERSE IS ALSO THE CASE WHEN YOU DEFAUT.

JESUS ACTUALLY WANT THE PHARISEE TO 'TEACH PEOPLE THE VALUE OF OBEDIENCE'

So before Jesus died, people showed 'under the law' mercy but now we are to show 'under grace' mercy

THAT IS THE POINT, WHAT CONSTITUTES MERCY(terms,as in terms of agreements) UNDER THE LAW IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT CONSTITUTE MERCY UNDER THE GRACE REMEMBER;
IF A PARTICULAR CONTRACT IS VOIDED OR NULIFIED, THE TERMS OF AGREEMENTS OF THE NEW AGREEMENT[i] MAY ALSO CONTAIN PART, OR A FEW PORTIONS OF THE OLD AGREEMENT TO ALSO FORM NEW TERMS OF AGREEMENT  WITHOUT NECCESARILY 'RE INSTATE' THE NULIFIED OR VOIDED AGREEMENT[/i] IN ANYWAYWHATSOEVER.


THATS WHY 'OFFERING' FOR EXAMPLE HAS CHANGED FROM TANGIBLE FRUIT TO SPIRITUAL THINGS';

Hebrews 13:15

15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name.

THIS IS DUE TO THE CHANGE OF THE TERMS OF WHAT CONSTITUTE 'OFFERING'

AND SOWING SEED,UNDER GRACE IS ABOUT IN SPIRIT, LETS APPLY;I.E

''He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.''

DOES THIS  ABOVE STATEMENT SUGGEST '' PUTTING CASH IN CHURCH,IN TURN INCREASE IN THE GIVERS FINANCIAL BUSINESSES''?ACCORDING TO TODAYS CONCEPT OF ''SOW''.
WHAT DO CHRISTIANS ‘SOW’? (is it cash ‘sowing’ for muiltiplication, or ‘sowing’ in spirit that includes generousity)

TO ANSWER THIS LETS SEE WHAT CONSTITUTES THE THE BIBLE AND  CHRIST-ERA 'SOWING' AS USED IN THE BIBLE; Pls read,

Galatians 6:7-9

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
NOTE,

{a} For he who  ‘’sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption’’,
{b}‘’ he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life’’.

Galatians 5:19-21

{a1}
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[a] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[b] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
{b1}
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

APPLY [a] to[a1]  and [b] to [b1] ANSWERS WHAT CONSTITUTES ‘’SOWING’’ AS USED IN THE PARAGRAPH DURING THE EARLY CHRISTIANS.
NOW,LETS SEE AND EXAMPLE OF A ‘CHEERFUL GIVER’ WHO ‘SOW BOUNTIFULLY AND WAS REWARDED BOUNTIFULLY.
ACTS 9:36-41;

36 At Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which is translated Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did. 37 But it happened in those days that she became sick and died. When they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room. 38 And since Lydda was near Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent two men to him, imploring him not to delay in coming to them. 39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he had come, they brought him to the upper room. And all the widows stood by him weeping, showing the tunics and garments which Dorcas had made while she was with them. 40 But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. 41 Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive.

Mathew 19-21;
Remember the young ruler was told by jesus to,

21, ‘’sell all ye have and distribute to the poor.and have treasures in heaven’’,

JESUS DID NOT ASK HIM TO TITHE OR ‘SOW’ THE CASH PROCEEDS BUT THAT HE SHOULD DISTRIBUTE IT DIRECTLY TO THE POOR,SIMPLE. AND THAT SHOWS ‘SOWING IN ‘SPIRIT OF KINDNESS’ WHICH IS NUMBER 5, OF [b1]above.  


IT AMAZES ME WHEN PEOPLE DONT TALK OF ''GOOD CONCIENCE TOWARDS GOD IN ALL WE DO'',
SOME DONT CARE ''HOW(the process) THEY GOT THEIR MATERIAL RICHES'' BUT(the product matters)TO THEM

THEY CLAIMED IT IS GODS DOING, EVEN IF YOU OBTAIN WEALTH BY 'FRAUD' SO FAR YOU PRAY AND 'SOW' (according to the modern pastor) .

IS IT ACCEPTABLE TO GOD?

OR IS GOD BLIND TO SEE THOSE 'FRAUD' PROCESS?
Questions begging for answers,

'you cant mock God' 'he sees everything'

SUMMARY: CHRISTIANS ‘SOW’ IN SPIRIT(the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.)

So you want me to believe that the Justice that Jesus was requesting from the Pharisees in this case was the 'EYE for an EYE' justice as welll as stoning of children that rebel against their parents?

If he was referring to the 'justice' of OT, why did he not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned?

It is hilarious when you try t explain 'Mercy (under the law). From the scripture that you mentioned, I would have thought you would have used that to define giving to the poor.

Micah 6:8: He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

So before Jesus died, people showed 'under the law' mercy but now we are to show 'under grace' mercy

Snowwy:

you stated that mercy, faith & justice were not restricted to the Levite priesthood and I affirm yes. Infact those 3 can be found before the law:

Snowwy:

This means they are universal laws.

Of all the laws in the OT, Jesus picked these 3, (which you confirmed were not restricted to the Levitical priesthood and apply to us today), and said they should be upheld.

Snowwy:

He added do not neglect tithing.

Snowwy:

God approved tithing,

Snowwy:

God approved tithing, Jesus said it should not be neglected

Snowwy:

I need no further (edited) proof that tithing is valid

amor4ce:

Was Paul telling us that Abraham gave a tithe to the Messiah?

yet when Zikky said those laws were not restricted to the Levite priesthood but to Christians, you told him to re-echo it.

REMEMBER THAT MY DISCUSSION TODAY STARTED WITH THE QUOTE BELOW;

Mathew 23:23,

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

OF WHICH I RESPONDED LIKE THIS;
DOES Mathew 23:23(above) BUTRESS YOUR POINT THAT TITHE APPLY TO CHRISTIANS?  CAPITAL NO, WHY?

JESUS IS STRESSING THE 'OBLIGATION THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE LAW' also echoed by paul;
THEN YOU RESPOND TO THAT;

You said Jesus was stressing the 'obligation attached to the law' right? Ok so are you saying that MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE are 'obligations attached to the law' only?.


NOW, BELOW IS ZIGGY'S WHOLE POST;
ZIGGY;

I think the reason you continue to stick to Mathew 23:23 is because you refused to understand that the tithing practice being referred to in that particular verse can only be performed by a Jew. The practice was restricted to the levitical priesthood (as beneficiary). To adhere to Christ command, you'll need to find a Levi priest. Mercy, faith & justice does apply to Christians because they were not restricted to the levitical priesthood. The apostles continued to talk about mercy, faith & justice after the death of Christ.

WHY DONT YOU PICK THIS BELOW THAT RELATES TO OUR DISCUSSION;

I think the reason you continue to stick to Mathew 23:23 is because you refused to understand that the tithing practice being referred to in that particular verse can only be performed by a Jew.


THIS ACT ALONE,YOU WANT TO FORCE ME TO SAY THAT '(YOU DISPLAYED SELECTED MEMORY) IF NOT;

WHY DONT YOU RELATE TO THE ONLY PART THAT RELATES TO OUR TOPIC? IN THAT QUOTE?(mathew 23:23), THAT I, RE QUOTED ABOVE, BECAUSE YOU ASK,

AND THE ONUS OF PROOF,HEREINAFTER MEANS THAT THE 'BURDEN OF PROOF' OR EXTENT OF MY REFERENCE HAS BEEN SATISFIED HERE,BY MY LATER QUOTES OF WHERE I STAND.

SO LETS MOVE ON. I DONT JOIN ISSUES WITH ANYBODY SO DEAL WITH PEOPLE DIFFERENTLY, BUT WHEN YOU ASK ME, I WILL GIVE YOU ''THE EXTENT OF MY INVOLVEMENT WHEN I REFER TO QUOTES'',

you initially said the mercy, faith and justice spoken of by Jesus were 'law based'

If you claim that Jesus wanted the Pharisees to teach obedience based based on that scripture, why did you say mercy, faith & justice were 'under the law'

You claim 'sowing' refers to spiritual things only, why did you take 2 Cor. 9:6 out of context then?
You delibrately overlooked 2 Cor 9:1-7.Is the sowing stated there not referring to giving?