@jmoore, The music video i posted is for you and my christian peeps for doing a great "job" on this topic thumbs up....by the way, where is Yujin? I miss you on this one.

Introduction

The phrase Cogito ergo sum is not used in Descartes' Meditations on First Philosophy but the term "the cogito" is (often confusingly) used to refer to an argument from it. In the Meditations, Descartes phrases the conclusion of the argument as "that the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind." (Meditation II.)

At the beginning of the second meditation, having reached what he considers to be the ultimate level of doubt — his argument from the existence of a deceiving god — Descartes examines his beliefs to see if any have survived the doubt. In his belief in his own existence, he finds that it is impossible to doubt that he exists. Even if there were a deceiving god (or an evil demon), one's belief in their own existence would be secure, for there is no way one could be deceived unless one existed in order to be deceived.

But I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it now follow that I, too, do not exist? No. If I convinced myself of something [or thought anything at all], then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who deliberately and constantly deceives me. In that case, I, too, undoubtedly exist, if he deceives me; and let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing, so long as I think that I am something. So, after considering everything very thoroughly, I must finally conclude that the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind. (AT VII 25; CSM II 16–17)

There are three important notes to keep in mind here. First, he claims only the certainty of his own existence from the first-person point of view — he has not proved the existence of other minds at this point. This is something that has to be thought through by each of us for ourselves, as we follow the course of the meditations. Second, he does not say that his existence is necessary; he says that if he thinks, then necessarily he exists (see the instantiation principle). Third, this proposition "I am, I exist" is held true not based on a deduction (as mentioned above) or on empirical induction but on the clarity and self-evidence of the proposition.

Descartes does not use this first certainty, the cogito, as a foundation upon which to build further knowledge; rather, it is the firm ground upon which he can stand as he works to restore his beliefs. As he puts it:

Archimedes used to demand just one firm and immovable point in order to shift the entire earth; so I too can hope for great things if I manage to find just one thing, however slight, that is certain and unshakable. (AT VII 24; CSM II 16)

According to many of Descartes' specialists, including Étienne Gilson, the goal of Descartes in establishing this first truth is to demonstrate the capacity of his criterion — the immediate clarity and distinctiveness of self-evident propositions — to establish true and justified propositions despite having adopted a method of generalized doubt. As a consequence of this demonstration, Descartes considers science and mathematics to be justified to the extent that their proposals are established on a similarly immediate clarity, distinctiveness, and self-evidence that presents itself to the mind. The originality of Descartes' thinking, therefore, is not so much in expressing the cogito — a feat accomplished by other predecessors, as we shall see — but on using the cogito as demonstrating the most fundamental epistemological principle, that science and mathematics are justified by relying on clarity, distinctiveness, and self-evidence.

Baruch Spinoza in "Principia philosophiae cartesianae" at its Prolegomenon identified "cogito ergo sum" the "ego sum cogitans" (I am a thinking being) as the thinking substance with his ontological interpretation. It can also be considered that Cogito ergo sum is needed before any living being can go further in life".[3]

Hmmmm!

quotes of st thomas aquinas



A man has free choice to the extent that he is rational.
Thomas Aquinas

All that is true, by whomsoever it has been said has its origin in the Spirit.
Thomas Aquinas

All the efforts of the human mind cannot exhaust the essence of a single fly.
Thomas Aquinas

Because we cannot know what God is, but only what He is not, we cannot consider how He is but only how He is not.
Thomas Aquinas

All u atheist, go and read about thomas aquinas

Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy
through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you,
Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because
you have hidden these things from the
wise and learned, and revealed them to
little children. Yes, Father, for this was
your good pleasure.

Luke 10:22 "All things have been
committed to me by my Father. No one
knows who the Son is except the Father,
and no one knows who the Father is
except the Son and those to whom the Son
chooses to reveal him."
1corrinthians 1:
26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were
called. Not many of you were wise by human standards;
not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to
shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world
to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this
world and the despised things—and the things that are
not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may
boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in
Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—
that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast
in the Lord

Theblessed
We now live in the age of reason not the age of demons. So please if you really think i am possssed with stubborn demons meet me here and try and reason the stubborn demons out of me (using your bible if you like) instead of casting them out and i will use my knowledge to try and reason superstitious beliefs out of you

joe4christ: What a shallow thinking mind you atheists indeed possesses? Dont be foolish in reasoning mehn, how do you explain the balances in nature itself?
Have you wondered what planet earth would've looked like if the the sun was a meter closer to the earth or a meter away?

It won't look any different. In fact, the distance between the earth and the sun varies by about 5 million kilometers in a year.

joe4christ:
Have you once asked yourself what force is holding the sun, moon, earth and the whole planets from falling, they are all suspended on space by which force? And what is the source of those forces?

This is a misunderstanding of secondary school physics. You should have learned by now that the sun, moon and other celestial bodies aren't being prevented from "falling".

joe4christ:
You believe in the law of gravity and believe it is responsible for some natural activities but could you please tell me what exactly is the source of that law of gravity, where does it derive it's force from, or should we start talking about the lithosphere, atmosphere and oxygen etc, what exactly is their source?

How would answering this question tell you anything about God?

joe4christ:
You believe in evolution that man originated from ape, so why is there are there still thousand of apes around us, why did'nt they all turn human, or were their ancestors not in existance when your real ancestors of apes were gradually transforming into human?

Actually, humans are apes so there are actually billions of apes around. You're also demonstrating a deep misunderstanding of the theory of evolution. Why don't you look it up?

joe4christ:
Please be reasonable for once and save yourself from your very own trap of your mind (DELUSION)
Have you ever asked yourself the following question? ''What if i were wrong, what if actually there's a God who created the whole universe, what if there's actually life after death, what would be my fate being that i rejected the existance of this mighty supreme being?''
If you have'nt asked yourself the following question, then i bet you would do exactly that on your dying bed''
Enough said!

Have you asked yourself what if you were wrong? You could end up in a hell worse than that conceived by your religious fellows.

aryzgreat: quotes of st thomas aquinas



A man has free choice to the extent that he is rational.
Thomas Aquinas

All that is true, by whomsoever it has been said has its origin in the Spirit.
Thomas Aquinas

All the efforts of the human mind cannot exhaust the essence of a single fly.
Thomas Aquinas

Because we cannot know what God is, but only what He is not, we cannot consider how He is but only how He is not.
Thomas Aquinas

All u atheist, go and read about thomas aquinas

Does he have anything important to say? Take the quotes above. The first is pretty obvious the others are essentially meaningless.

Theblessed: [size=16pt]You mean a Gospel conversation, with an Atheist?

Brace, yourself!!! Unless the Holy Ghost brakes in, you'd be far too exhausted with stress - with this kind, honest!

The demons that possess these lots are many and stubborn therefore, needs casting out first then, you would gain grounds otherwise, you won't make a head way.[/size]

Why don't you pray to your God and holy spirit to cast out the demons? Or are they powerless against the demons?

aryzgreat:
Because we cannot know what God is, but only what He is not, we cannot consider how He is but only how He is not.
Thomas Aquinas

All u atheist, go and read about thomas aquinas

Hmmmm. . . Aquinas had clarified the entire position of Christianity. They have no idea whatsoever of what they are worshipping. Aquinas like his modern counterparts fell in love and worships a hopeless Abstract which lacks a substance. How is it possible to prove an undefined God in first place? "God" is a bad concept that says and identifies nothing. Just another mystery wrapped in a human clothes. Reason can't support absurdities like God, just Faith. That's where the relevance of Faith comes in.

nl.official:
I own a car, I make use of it, but I don't know who designed it and then I deny the existence of the designer. Of course, that's not true.

One sure thing is that, at the end of your life, you'll know there is something responsible for this world.

To be sincere I'm sick and tired of these ancient primitive thinking!! We are discussing the beginning of everything, if there nothing before everything, why is there something now? Then MAGIC, God self causes and creates everything?? What caused all complexities including this God idea??

jmoore: Time to chill.........

The biggest problem with 'evidential' type arguments is that they leave man as the judge over God, rather than God as the judge over man. You see, even if one is convinced by an evidential type argument, the ultimate authority of that person could very easily remain their own ability to reason, and not God

Here is discussion with a former atheist now a christian who came back from hell after an outer body experience.

Howard storm:We are not going to hold it against you that you are ignorant,you don't know what you don't know. If you do not believe in God, that doesn't mean you have no God. You have a God, your God is you. You think your are God and you got the puniest most worthless God there is, yourself and it is about time you straighten out.There is a higher power, go to the source. If you go to the source, if you say Jesus, I need you, I never believed in you and I do not know if you are real but Jesus I need to know if you are real. will you come into my life?If you do that and you meant it from your heart and if you sit down there and wait and don't get all frustrated, getting impatient stuff like that but just say Jesus please come into my life,I have been a rotten person and I do not know why you touched a piece of filth like me but Jesus come into my life, which is what I did, he will come...

Tv host: why did you not do that before your experience?

Howard storm:I didn't know........ , you know what, all these philosophical speculations that you are doing all the time between existentialism and other stuffs..why don't you ask him if he is real?

Tv host:is that all it could have taken?

Howard storm:yes, because I really believe that he will do something, it doesn't necessarily gonna be struck by lightning...it may just be as John Wesley said a strange warming of the heart when you just know that you know that you know that you know.



For those still in doubt after all these, the conclusion awaits when we meet death.

The sad part is you claimed your god could logically be proven, but you are assuming his existence already without proving his necessity in the first place. And you find Reason to be a Judge of man only?? How are we atheists supposed to find your god? With Faith? By intellectual laziness?? "Just Believe"??

I would have to sacrifice my mind and brain to have faith.

maninmood:

I just pray that you do not have a problem or the other. I have once been in your shoe but had some problems which only God solved. Where do you think you are while you are sound asleep and dreaming? Do you believe in sub-conscious mind? You formed out of nothing I guess? Why is human race not in Mars/ Jupiter/Pluto? Why on earth? Why did man just invent an airplane just about a century ago, why not like 500BC? Don't you think , by this virtue, human brain/thinking is limited? Your car you are driving? How did it get into existence? Out of Nothing? To take a single step, it requires 200muscles? Who planned that perfectly? Since Humans cannot cure Cancer, AIDS/HIV, and other diseases which they termed 'incurable'; do we say they are not real? Just cuz humans are not yet with the core knowledge about existence, why do they come with an assumption about gravity,et al? What is behind gravity? Gravitational force isn't in the space, like moon? What is holding moon from falling? Who planned all other planets strategically? Your becoming a man, your breathing, everything? Did they all come out of nothing? Who gave you the knowledge to think there is no God? What is behind that knowledge? Why did only mankind have consciousness? Why not other creatures? Do you believe in spirit? Have you seen a ghost before? As a toddler , while you were young, who taught you how to walk? talk? and understand your mother-tongue? How do you know the difference between truth and lies? Please think.

Finally, please stop challenging God? If you have a spiritual problems of some sort that no doctor or psychologist can cure, but prayer, then you will understand.

Can you explain life itself?

Yes I agree with you as long as there is no PERFECT WORLD, there is no perfect CREATOR.

SoftVersion: The Big Slam, I think is somehow biblical. God created something out of nothing, Let there be light and there‘s light. Do you know how that light is formed? A thousand years is like a day to God.

Creating something out of nothing is a logical impossibility and a contradiction. If God can do that, then he is a LOGICAL impossibility.

bankers:
It is only a fool that says in his heart that there is no God, Hell is expanding Everyday for all this people, get prepared for everlasting turture, you will ask jesus to have mercy on you but by then it will be too late, the devil will pour liquid fire on you if you dont repent, the bible says the these people shall have thier part in the LAKE OF FIRE where the fire does not quench nor the worms die, and the smoke of thier torment shall ascend for ever and ever be warned!!!

Since you are not and can't make sense of your magical tales, you resort to intimidation and threats! SAD!!

Kay 17:

To be sincere I'm sick and tired of these ancient primitive thinking!! We are discussing the beginning of everything, if there nothing before everything, why is there something now? Then MAGIC, God self causes and creates everything?? What caused all complexities including this God idea??

Well, I'm not going into that because I know that nothing will not even get you convinced. Your heart is hardened to your belief.

I have the answer and can help any one experiencing existential angst or anxieties as a result of their inability to
make heads or tails of thier existence. The bright shinning consciousness of seeming awareness is not the tool that will vouchesafe an answer to this question. When one looses the sense of seperateness from the seen, and becomes one with the seen without a mentating mind as in deep meditation, then one begins to know that time as you know it is a misnomar, and doesnt quite exist. when this experience is prevailing then the question of what preceeded what or created what begins to loose its lustre and stops making sense. I am Kwaja. I am the son of the barren woman. check out Chi ya holistic hygiene and God science folks.

Believe me evolution is crap.. Darwin himself said
" If it could be proved that any complex organs existed which could not possible had been formed from numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory will absolutely breakdown" You can not dispute the existence of God if you search truthfully. Atheism is just stark blindness to truth. God exists and His awesomeness is mirrored in every structure across the universe.

If you have time to spare to learn some truths, see this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYSmV2FlHDw&list=FLvO4kTgJ4y_1oxZlPhw29fg&feature=mh_lolz

If I say our beloved NAIRALAND does not have a creator/owner, everyone will consider me crazy! Yet it makes sense to some that the Universe happened by accident! That is truly a reprobate mind at work

ekwah: Believe me evolution is crap.. Darwin himself said
" If it could be proved that any complex organs existed which could not possible had been formed from numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory will absolutely breakdown" You can not dispute the existence of God if you search truthfully. Atheism is just stark blindness to truth. God exists and His awesomeness is mirrored in every structure across the universe.

If you have time to spare to learn some truths, see this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYSmV2FlHDw&list=FLvO4kTgJ4y_1oxZlPhw29fg&feature=mh_lolz

The problem here is: since God too is life and is the ultimate creator, intelligence and life are inevitably struck out as the causes of the origin of life. Life must definitely arise from non-life.

Besides Aquinas and Ary believe God is a mystery and they don't have an idea of what they are talking about.

NaijaEcash: If I say our beloved NAIRALAND does not have a creator/owner, everyone will consider me crazy! Yet it makes sense to some that the Universe happened by accident! That is truly a reprobate mind at work

seun is the lord.

Kay 17:

The problem here is: since God too is life and is the ultimate creator, intelligence and life are inevitably struck out as the causes of the origin of life. Life must definitely arise from non-life.

Besides Aquinas and Ary believe God is a mystery and they don't have an idea of what they are talking about.

I only wish your shallow mind is capable of fathoming the fact that God the creator of the universe is like an energy, the very source of all energy you could ever think of, the energy in life, heat, sun, light and everything lively or generates energy get it's source from this invissible creator.
Or could you explain to me how the sun generates it's energy and heat? From what source does it get such powerful energy that generate such brilliance and heat.
You are only fooling yourself to your own peril for thinking you're wiser not knowing how foolish you realy are and how shallow your thinking faculty is.

Only you can reason your way out of that bondage of the mind you put yourself into.
Only you can!

@joe4christ:
From the last paragragh of your post, it is very obvious that your clinging to a beliefe in god is borne out of fear and nothing else. You have doubt but fear wont let you explore them. So sad

joe4christ:

I only wish your shallow mind is capable of fathoming the fact that God the creator of the universe is like an energy, the very source of all energy you could ever think of, the energy in life, heat, sun, light and everything lively or generates energy get it's source from this invissible creator.
Or could you explain to me how the sun generates it's energy and heat? From what source does it get such powerful energy that generate such brilliance and heat.
You are only fooling yourself to your own peril for thinking you're wiser not knowing how foolish you realy are and how shallow your thinking faculty is.

Only you can reason your way out of that bondage of the mind you put yourself into.
Only you can!

That's the world's biggest mystery. lol

@Kay17. Why do you even bother?

Kay 17:

Hmmmm. . . Aquinas had clarified the entire position of Christianity. They have no idea whatsoever of what they are worshipping. Aquinas like his modern counterparts fell in love and worships a hopeless Abstract which lacks a substance. How is it possible to prove an undefined God in first place? "God" is a bad concept that says and identifies nothing. Just another mystery wrapped in a human clothes. Reason can't support absurdities like God, just Faith. That's where the relevance of Faith comes in.

Beautifully said.

ekwah: Believe me evolution is crap.. Darwin himself said
" If it could be proved that any complex organs existed which could not possible had been formed from numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory will absolutely breakdown" You can not dispute the existence of God if you search truthfully. Atheism is just stark blindness to truth. God exists and His awesomeness is mirrored in every structure across the universe.

Do you understand what the theory says?
You may want to read that statement in context. Here it is in full.

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case.

You shouldn't have left off the end.

ekwah:
If you have time to spare to learn some truths, see this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYSmV2FlHDw&list=FLvO4kTgJ4y_1oxZlPhw29fg&feature=mh_lolz

Can you summarize what you think the best argument of the video is?

What a nice debate(Not!). We human beings are so puny but incredibly arrogant. We are not even spending a quark in time here on earth and some of us get giddy on arguing whether God exists or not when the evidence is literarily slapping you on the face. Do you have a conscience? Have you seen a conscience before? Do you think? Have you ever seen thought before? Does intelligence exist? Have you seen it before?

Do you agree that abstract concepts exist?

Atheists, abeg make we hear word. You guys are all broke wannabes who don't know what real power, wealth and achievement means. Men who had all of these existed in the past and denied the existence of God. How was their end? Where are they now?

So because you read one or two books and watch videos, we no go hear word again #Sharrapthere.

Atheists, one by one tell us what it will take for you to believe in the existence of God? It is a simple question, answer if you dare!

Only through the holy spirit can one come to know God.I know with all my heart that God lives.

maclatunji: What a nice debate(Not!). We human beings are so puny but incredibly arrogant. We are not even spending a quark in time here on earth and some of us get giddy on arguing whether God exists or not when the evidence is literarily slapping you on the face. Do you have a conscience? Have you seen a conscience before? Do you think? Have you ever seen thought before? Does intelligence exist? Have you seen it before?

Do you agree that abstract concepts exist?

Atheists, abeg make we hear word. You guys are all broke wannabes who don't know what real power, wealth and achievement means. Men who had all of these existed in the past and denied the existence of God. How was their end? Where are they now?

So because you read one or two books and watch videos, we no go hear word again #Sharrapthere.
What?
Atheists, one by one tell us what it will take for you to believe in the existence of God? It is a simple question, answer if you dare!

What does being broke, so-called real power, real wealth and achievement have to do with this debate?
The real question is Where is everyone that ever lived?

The main problem is that your god doesn't do anything to show himself. hidding and relying on you with your 4000 year old book full of abominations to prove to me that he exists. Even if he comes out today I will spit on him for all the horrors he has either perpertuated or allowed to be perpertuated in his name.
how can i believe in a lying god?
how can i believe in an unseen god?
how can i believe a god that speaks through pedofiles?
how can i believe in a slap happy god?

and after all these beliefs and suffering on earth what do i get? a heaven full of boredom where i will be subjected to sing his praise daily forever and ever and ever.

Abeg.