plaetton:
What does being broke, so-called real power, real wealth and achievement have to do with this debate?
The real question is Where is everyone that ever lived?

Good question, we don't need to prove anything to atheists if they are too slow to realize that God exists. If there are people who are remotely deserving of being humoured with their atheism because of their 'immense achievements', it is not anybody here. So spare us the ignorant arrogance. That is where real power, wealth and achievement come-in. Who are you to demand evidence for the existence of God? Who you be? Who be you? Person way be say if we switch-off light for night in his room, e no go fit sleep dey come Nairaland they form "Advanced thinker" #Nonsense.

@bolded, where do you think they are? Their bodies are of no use to them, but what about their souls. Some dork will come and tell me there is no soul, abi? I will e-slap your mouth. The thought-process you are going through to read and reply me, is it tangible?

Oya answer my questions, abi fear dey catch una?

Logic Mind: The main problem is that your god doesn't do anything to show himself. hidding and relying on you with your 4000 year old book full of abominations to prove to me that he exists. Even if he comes out today I will spit on him for all the horrors he has either perpertuated or allowed to be perpertuated in his name.
how can i believe in a lying god?
how can i believe in an unseen god?
how can i believe a god that speaks through pedofiles?
how can i believe in a slap happy god?

and after all these beliefs and suffering on earth what do i get? a heaven full of boredom where i will be subjected to sing his praise daily forever and ever and ever.

Abeg.

You know what?
You're just an ignoramus so full of himself, you think you know it all ranking you the wisest, but the fact remains that you're actually foolish and lack common sense, mark my word for the record of it, someday you're going to confess with your mouth that there is actually a God and you're going to reverence him before you exit this world..

Kay 17:

The problem here is: since God too is life and is the ultimate creator, intelligence and life are inevitably struck out as the causes of the origin of life. Life must definitely arise from non-life.

Besides Aquinas and Ary believe God is a mystery and they don't have an idea of what they are talking about.

I only wish your shallow mind is capable of fathoming the fact that God the creator of the universe is like an energy, the very source of all energy you could ever think of, the energy in life, heat, sun, light and everything lively or generates energy get it's source from this invissible creator.
Or could you explain to me how the sun generates it's energy and heat? From what source does it get such powerful energy that generate such brilliance and heat.
You are only fooling yourself to your own peril for thinking you're wiser not knowing how foolish you realy are and how shallow your thinking faculty is.

Only you can reason your way out of that bondage of the mind you put yourself into.
Only you can!

Was it God who also created the prehistoric dinosaurs? And did he create Allah the Hindu gods the Roman gods and all the other gods that were around before he sent jesus to save us?

manmustwac: Was it God who also created the prehistoric dinosaurs? And did he create Allah the Hindu gods the Roman gods and all the other gods that were around before he sent jesus to save us?

Funny, leave the validation of any religion out at the moment. The primary question here is whether or not God exists.

maclatunji:
Funny, leave the validation of any religion out at the moment. The primary question here is whether or not God exists.

Without the validation of your religion, how do you know it's one god instead of several?


How did you come about this knowledge? Don't use any personal beliefs, convictions, holy book or anecdotes.

maclatunji:

Good question, we don't need to prove anything to atheists if they are too slow to realize that God exists. If there are people who are remotely deserving of being humoured with their atheism because of their 'immense achievements', it is not anybody here. So spare us the ignorant arrogance. That is where real power, wealth and achievement come-in. Who are you to demand evidence for the existence of God? Who you be? Who be you? Person way be say if we switch-off light for night in his room, e no go fit sleep dey come Nairaland they form "Advanced thinker" #Nonsense.

@bolded, where do you think they are? Their bodies are of no use to them, but what about their souls. Some dork will come and tell me there is no soul, abi? I will e-slap your mouth. The thought-process you are going through to read and reply me, is it tangible?

Oya answer my questions, abi fear dey catch una?

I'm not surprised at Mactunji's comments. He can't contemplate the metaphysical question of whether or not "God" (definition varies) exists. As a submissive, its sinful for such an idea to come across his mind. Allah/God and religion must be believed without resort to reason or evidence. "Just believe"

Unlike we atheists its a valid question. Either God exists or not is valid question and such must be asked before assuming or accepting the existence of God. For me Islam forms one of the millions of religions in the world, and I "assume" islam likewise has the baggage of the average religion. It is bound to have an unhealthy share of superstition, a control mechanism and sometimes a purpose /motivation to live.

To understand atheists, you have to understand the importance of that question. "Just believe" is definitely not an option for me.

And also quit fallacies from authority, every reasonable human will understand the pecularities of a true God and religion.

^Keep contemplating until you can contemplate no more.

Your case doesn't surprise me. So in your own warped world, the only conclusion that any individual who asks the question: does God exist? can come to is to say that He does not exist.

How brilliant, you must be the best thing that has ever happened to scientific research.

Your assumption that religious people don't question the existence of God is nothing but foolhardy. You cannot be a firm Muslim if you don't answer this fundamental question.

Go and tap your head against the wall and think of another thing.

Martian:

Without the validation of your religion, how do you know it's one god instead of several?


How did you come about this knowledge? Don't use any personal beliefs, convictions, holy book or anecdotes.

You know that there always at least 2 Presidents
and Commanders-in-Chief in every country. Identical twins always agree, 2 drivers drive the same car at the same time. Two mothers will give birth to the same child and you put your food in too mouths at the same time.

How dare I say there is only one God?

maclatunji:

You know that there always at least 2 Presidents
and Commanders-in-Chief in every country. Identical twins always agree, 2 drivers drive the same car at the same time. Two mothers will give birth to the same child and you put your food in too mouths at the same time.

How dare I say there is only one God?

But the Halder Collider was developed by one man, nor a plane, or a multinational company, or a country. Complex projects regularly have numerous hands but with one mind.

maclatunji: ^Keep contemplating until you can contemplate no more.

Your case doesn't surprise me. So in your own warped world, the only conclusion that any individual who asks the question: does God exist? can come to is to say that He does not exist.

How brilliant, you must be the best thing that has ever happened to scientific research.

Your assumption that religious people don't question the existence of God is nothing but foolhardy. You cannot be a firm Muslim if you don't answer this fundamental question.

Go and tap your head against the wall and think of another thing.

Have you question the Quran? Why do you think its true?

Useless buffons.....bothering urselves on irrelevant things.whether ur an athesist or beliver,just get on with ur life n leave all those things 2 sort themselves out

Sonnik212: Useless buffons.....bothering urselves on irrelevant things.whether ur an athesist or beliver,just get on with ur life n leave all those things 2 sort themselves out

Take your own medicine and buzz-off

Kay 17:

But the Halder Collider was developed by one man, nor a plane, or a multinational company, or a country. Complex projects regularly have numerous hands but with one mind.


Have you question the Quran? Why do you think its true?

You know all of those people did not have a leader and where all on equal footing.

maclatunji:

You know that there always at least 2 Presidents
and Commanders-in-Chief in every country. Identical twins always agree, 2 drivers drive the same car at the same time. Two mothers will give birth to the same child and you put your food in too mouths at the same time.

These can't seriously be your reasons why god just has to be one. I can also follow your example and say there are 3 gods because water comes in solid, liquid and gas. Or I can say there are 2 gods because of the wave particle duality of quantum physics.

maclatunji:
How dare I say there is only one God?

Go ahead, tell us why you dare say there is only one god. No personal beliefs, conviction, holy books or anecdotes.

joe4christ: What a shallow thinking mind you atheists indeed possesses? Dont be foolish in reasoning mehn, how do you explain the balances in nature itself?

We atheists have a shallow mind? Funny. In your post, you ask "How do you explain the balance of nature." We understand this. The balance of nature is very well understood, and if YOU take the time to study it, (broaden your mind), you will answer your own question. The processes of nature are amazing, and well understood by intelligent people willing to learn. If you close your mind, refuse to study, then yes you need God to explain the things you're not educated enough to understand.
Take the time to learn, broaden your mind, and learn to appreciate life. I do. I read a book or two every month written by experts in their field on science, nature, religion, philosophy, etc... It’s exciting and fascinating stuff. Yes, it would be easier to just say God does it all and its pure magic - no need to read. But nature is amazing, and learning how it works is enjoyable. http://wecreatedgod.com/the-evidence-we-creaded-god/

Learned gentlemen and ladies, this debate about a first cause who was not himself/itself caused is a cul-de-sac because no-one will change his mind against his will, and to make a man change his mind requires more than reason because he can choose to discountenance whatever reasons you advance.
Fisrtly let me admit that it takes a more conscious effort to be an atheist than to be a theist. Most times we become theist not by choice but by family, peers etc and then latter accumulate reasons to defend and justify our belief while considering evidences against our belief as exceptions to the rule. For this reason a child born in a muslim family will belief in God as defined by Quaran, so a child born in a Christian family will belief first in the creeds of Christianity and as he grows seeks only evidences that advance his belief and rejecting evidences to the contrary as aberration. Hence for most theism, the belief comes first and then the justifications.
However for the atheist, considering the relatively small percentage of people in this category, it is not unsafe to assume most mere born into some theist family but over time due to education or self determination/decision then personally chose to change belief from theism to atheism… most times against odds. For this reason you realize most atheists are vast in science “space-time continuum concept, evolution etc). Hence being an atheist is most times a product of self decision based on personal evaluation of available evidences. That is the justifications come before the belief.
Hence I can make a first conclusion by saying atheists are more rational than theists.
But the greatest conflict comes from the sources of argument, the theist (Christian for example)) use the bible, while the atheists use observation, logic and science.
On one hand the atheist don’t say that bible claims are false (I suppose), they rather posit that those claims could be rather explained without introduction of a god element eg creation of life, creation of night and day, with sun to rule the day and moon to rule the night, rainbow, seasons etc.
And on the other hand, we know that science is evolutionary, certain things we know today were unknown before and perhaps certain things we don’t know today may become clear later. So the theist say, due to this nature of the atheists’ tool of argument (science), it may not be the final authority of what is true, since its conclusions evolve with new information over time.
Going a little further, the development of most of the theist’s argument (big-bang, black-hole, relativity, Darwinian evolution, space and planetary bodies etc ) are recent within the last 300-350 years whereas the bible patches and commentary compiled in today’s bible scientifically dates back 1700(new testament) – 3000 (old testament) years
I find it a bit curious that many things the aged book (bible) already implied/said are been corroborated by the young science. I give a few examples:

(1) Gen 1:1 the bible says “in the beginning god created the heaven(s) and the earth” if you check any translation of the bible you will see the pluralisation of the word HEAVENS. The writer of genesis must be implying here other earth-like domains which in the available vocabulary of the time he referred to as the heaven(s). I think if the word planet already existed at that time it would have read “in the beginning god created the planets and earth”

(2) Isaiah 40:22 “He (god) sits enthroned upon the circle of the earth” this already gives the notion of a circular/spherical earth which science refuted until 1861 when Ferdinand Margellan circumnavigated the earth and showed that the earth was not flat as supposed by science but really spherical like the bible already implied.

(3) 2 Pet 3:3 “But do not forget …with the lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” Do you realize it must have taken great faith and writing out of sheer inspiration to make a claim like above 1700 years ago. This statement suggests that the writer knows that the length of a day is a function of the planetary body to which you belong. For example 1 year in Pluto (time to rotate round the sun) is apprx 350 earth-years and 1 day in Venus is approx 245 earth-days. So then just imagine that Heaven (gods supposed abode) is one of the far away planets in our galaxy, it would not be impossible to have a planetary body whose 1 year is equivalent to 1000+ earth-years (this is also directly applicable to days and night based on the size of the planet and its speed of rotation about its axis). Therefore in the events of genesis where the bible talks of god creating the earth in 7days, we just can’t tell whose day reference the writer implies- earth day or heaven day. But beyond all the science jargons, my point is , the bible seems to already imply or refer to concepts which science later grows-up to relate with.

(4) I have done a lot of reading on Black-holes “it is formed by dead exploding stars,such stars collapse into an infinitely dense mater called singularity. The black-hole has infitely large gravity and nothing that enters it can ever escape even light. It is for this reason they have been difficult to study by science since light rays hitting the singularity never escapes for us to perceive with the telescope The black-hole hence is a scientific place of darkness from which nothing that enters can escape. This for me seems to fit the biblical concept of hell, (a bottomless pit (notice the similarity black-hole, dark bottomless-pit)


Hence I will conclude with the following observations,
(i) Based on the afore mentioned points, I think that science is not a sufficient bases as of today to tell us that god does not exist, since we have shown that the knowledge of science grows and improves with time. Hence although science doesn’t see the need for the existence of god today, it may arrive there tomorrow.
(ii) The bible has been shown by the fore examples to speak ahead of time of events which science comes behind to confirm, hence we may want to intuitively uphold what we think the bible says whenever it is conflicting with science in the hope that someday science will arrive at same position as the bible holds.
(iii) Then since the bible says that god exists, it is safe to belief it, hoping one day science will also affirm it.

^The only way your post could really be valid is if God was the only directly unseeable or unobservable being. These people who are forming scientists don't know a thing about science because if they knew, they would realize that science can't explain everything. At those points when science doesn't know, all you do is to cut the chase and agree that some things are higher than our understanding and can only be from God.

Japan is perhaps the most scientifically driven society in the world. Do you think if they really understood what causes Tsunamis, their economy would be in ruins? It wouldn't.

The greatest foolishness is to think you are intelligent by virtue of claiming that God doesn't exist. Since you believe so much in your ability, let us see you create your own planet from nothing. You can't, yet you spew rubbish.

maclatunji: ^The only way your post could really be valid is if God was the only directly unseeable or unobservable being. These people who are forming scientists don't know a thing about science because if they knew, they would realize that science can't explain everything. At those points when science doesn't know, all you do is to cut the chase and agree that some things are higher than our understanding and can only be from God.

Japan is perhaps the most scientifically driven society in the world. Do you think if they really understood what causes Tsunamis, their economy would be in ruins? It wouldn't.

The greatest foolishness is to think you are intelligent by virtue of claiming that God doesn't exist. Since you believe so much in your ability, let us see you create your own planet from nothing. You can't, yet you spew rubbish.

How is the guy spewing rubbish? He also believes in god.

Martian:
Go ahead, tell us why you dare say there is only one god. No personal beliefs, conviction, holy books or anecdotes.

Forget about Japan and their tsunamis for a second.

Martian:

These can't seriously be your reasons why god just has to be one. I can also follow your example and say there are 3 gods because water comes in solid, liquid and gas. Or I can say there are 2 gods because of the wave particle duality of quantum physics.



Go ahead, tell us why you dare say there is only one god. No personal beliefs, conviction, holy books or anecdotes.

@bolded, if you said those things, you would be a polytheist not an atheist. We have told you, you can't escape God. Even polytheists know that God exists, they just think they have to pass through their 'gods' to get to him.

The case of an atheist is like one who refuses to enrol in a school because he feels that the knowledge there is useless. However, at the end of the term, he wants to be awarded first place in class because of his brilliance. We have to ask: what brilliance?

Atheists cannot give positive value, they can only survive by trying to negate points. Without positive value there wouldn't be a negative one. Without God, you wouldn't be here to argue that he doesn't exist.

maclatunji:

@bolded, if you said those things, you would be a polytheist not an atheist. We have told you, you can't escape God. Even polytheists know that God exists, they just think they have to pass through their 'gods' to get to him.

The case of an atheist is like one who refuses to enrol in a school because he feels that the knowledge there is useless. However, at the end of the term, he wants to be awarded first place in class because of his brilliance. We have to ask: what brilliance?

Atheists cannot give positive value, they can only survive by trying to negate points. Without positive value there wouldn't be a negative one. Without God, you wouldn't be here to argue that he doesn't exist.

That is not the issue. It's not about atheists, polytheists or anything in between. I just followed your line of thinking to show how absurd it was. e.g there are four creator gods because of north, east, west and south.

Martian:
Go ahead, tell us why you dare say there is only one god. No personal beliefs, conviction, holy books or anecdotes.

Martian:

How is the guy spewing rubbish? He also believes in god.


Forget about Japan and their tsunamis for a second.

You are not so smart. All you do is ask? Do you have anything you know? Of course, you cannot know anything when you deny your creator. In this regard your status is below that of animals.

You ask questions but seek to limit the answers. True scientists and researchers do not eliminate any outcome of their research until it has been effectively eliminated by their research findings.

If you seek to eliminate, holy books, anecdotes and convictions from the answers you will get for your question, then you are useless as a questioner. A questioner is a student, he does not tell his teacher where to teach him from.

maclatunji:

You are not so smart. All you do is ask? Do you have anything you know? Of course, you cannot know anything when you deny your creator. In this regard your status is below that of animals..

Ok, that's cool.

maclatunji:
You ask questions but seek to limit the answers. True scientists and researchers do not eliminate any outcome of their research until it has been effectively eliminated by their research findings..

I am not a scientist but I am trying to be objective. I do not seek to limit the answers, I just ask that you exclude personal beliefs, anecdotes, religious convictions and holy books. None of these can be said to be objective. E.g An objective fact will be gravity is the force of attraction between bodies.a personal belief will be that gravity is caused by the invicible magnet that forms the foundation of the universe. That's why personal beliefs are excluded etc etc

maclatunji:
If you seek to eliminate, holy books, anecdotes and convictions from the answers you will get for your question, then you are useless as a questioner. A questioner is a student, he does not tell his teacher where to teach him from.

I already know what to expect from holy books, anecdotes are not convincing and your convictions will be biased towards your religion.

So it shouldn't be hard even if you can't use those four kinds of example, after all you are sure there is one god.
So........

Martian:
Go ahead, tell us why you dare say there is only one god. No personal beliefs, conviction, holy books or anecdotes.

Martian:

Ok, that's cool.


I am not a scientist but I am trying to be objective. I do not seek to limit the answers, I just ask that you exclude personal beliefs, anecdotes, religious convictions and holy books. None of these can be said to be objective. E.g An objective fact will be gravity is the force of attraction between bodies.a personal belief will be that gravity is caused by the invicible magnet that forms the foundation of the universe. That's why personal beliefs are excluded etc etc



I already know what to expect from holy books, anecdotes are not convincing and your convictions will be biased towards your religion.

So it shouldn't be hard even if you can't use those four kinds of example, after all you are sure there is one god.
So........

And in all your objectivity, you don't know that it is not all that exists that can be explained by a theory. Like I said before, a questioner does not make stipulations about where to get answers from. If you can't figure that out, keep posting your request to infinity.

By the way, tell your wife why you have to be the one to get her pregnant and not vice versa. When you question self-evident concepts we have a name we call you. #Fool.

Proof that there is no God. You see that is a request without conditions and you cannot do it.

Martian:

Ok, that's cool.


I am not a scientist but I am trying to be objective. I do not seek to limit the answers, I just ask that you exclude personal beliefs, anecdotes, religious convictions and holy books. None of these can be said to be objective. E.g An objective fact will be gravity is the force of attraction between bodies.a personal belief will be that gravity is caused by the invicible magnet that forms the foundation of the universe. That's why personal beliefs are excluded etc etc



I already know what to expect from holy books, anecdotes are not convincing and your convictions will be biased towards your religion.

So it shouldn't be hard even if you can't use those four kinds of example, after all you are sure there is one god.
So........

Maybe you learnt English from the Chinese. However, when you exclude anything you have created limitations. Who are you to define what is objective and what isn't? You cannot create rules for others, when you seek not to follow any yourself.

Time wi come dat all u atheist realise d existence of God.Although,none of u provided an answers to d questns i earlier asked on dis thread but advise u to think of what brought about your rationality i.e why are we different from others animals?

maclatunji:
And in all your objectivity, you don't know that it is not all that exists that can be explained by a theory

You don't have to create a theory if you don't want to,all I ask is that you give reasons why god has to be one and how everyone should recognize this fact.

maclatunji:
Like I said before, a questioner does not make stipulations about where to get answers from

There are countless holy books all claiming to be infallible and they all have people who believe them. Using yours won't convince anyone who doesn't have faith in it already. Anecdotes are usually extraordinary and extraordinary claims require etraordinary evidence. Your personal beliefs are totally subjective and your convictions will be biased towards your particular religion. Only four stipulations with reasons.

maclatunji:
If you can't figure that out, keep posting your request to infinity.

then just say you can't answer without refering to your religious convictions, it's not a big deal, most theists are like that.

maclatunji:
By the way, tell your wife why you have to be the one to get her pregnant and not vice versa..

I would but she got abducted by Von Daniken's aliens.

maclatunji:
When you question self-evident concepts we have a name we call you. #Fool.

Yea, yea. We know you use twitter. No need to use hashtags on Nairaland. What self evident concept have i questioned and why am i a fool for questioning things?

maclatunji:
Proof that there is no God. You see that is a request without conditions and you cannot do it.

I would, but you have yet to tell me what god is. How do i disprove something that you refuse to describe?

maclatunji:

Maybe you learnt English from the Chinese. However, when you exclude anything you have created limitations. Who are you to define what is objective and what isn't? You cannot create rules for others, when you seek not to follow any yourself.

So you're limited because you can't use your holy book, religious convictions, doubtful anecdotes and personal beliefs? Your "self evident concept" of god seems to be non existent..

God is "self evident" but can not be shown to exist without the use of holy book, religious convictions, doubtful anecdotes and personal beliefs? Self evident indeed. . .

@mactunji

There could be a head of other gods, there could be a partnership, there could be a committee of gods "creating" this diverse world.

And why is the Quran true, questioning muslim?

D sage: Time wi come dat all u atheist realise d existence of God.Although,none of u provided an answers to d questns i earlier asked on dis thread but advise u to think of what brought about your rationality i.e why are we different from others animals?

What questions??

If there was a perfect creator, why is there an imperfect creation?

God's extremely perfect,the reason why he seem imperfecly to you,is because of free will he has givn on to man.But let me ask you this as an example,did inventor of computer knew it going to be infected/affected by the virus when it was made?God created man for some purpose&the reason why we were created by him according to the scripture,was to serve him and to fulfil these purpose.
But because of the free will given by him,man disobeyed him and does things in the way that is contrary to the purpose of his existence.If you says there was no God,what at least wi u tells us about spirit,conscience&soul?Are they in one way or the other influence/cause our existence?

D sage: God's extremely perfect,the reason why he seem imperfecly to you,is because of free will he has givn on to man.But let me ask you this as an example,did inventor of computer knew it going to be infected/affected by the virus when it was made?God created man for some purpose&the reason why we were created by him according to the scripture,was to serve him and to fulfil these purpose.
But because of the free will given by him,man disobeyed him and does things in the way that is contrary to the purpose of his existence.If you says there was no God,what at least wi u tells us about spirit,conscience&soul?Are they in one way or the other influence/cause our existence?

No, the inventor thought his COMPUTER virus would infect cheeseburgers. Please read through your paragraph again, I am a repressed grammar nazi. And God gave free will...that we should use to obey him...or get punished. Isn't that like a prime example of greek gift?

D sage: God's extremely perfect,the reason why he seem imperfecly to you,is because of free will he has givn on to man.But let me ask you this as an example,did inventor of computer knew it going to be infected/affected by the virus when it was made?God created man for some purpose&the reason why we were created by him according to the scripture,was to serve him and to fulfil these purpose.
But because of the free will given by him,man disobeyed him and does things in the way that is contrary to the purpose of his existence.If you says there was no God,what at least wi u tells us about spirit,conscience&soul?Are they in one way or the other influence/cause our existence?

so following your logic, are you saying God does not know beforehand that evil is going to come. if that is true, then He is not omnipotent and he is not a true Almighty God as described in the Bible and Quran.