tbaba1234: ^
Do I have to repeat everything i said earlier::

I would appreciate it if you read: It is almost embarrassing that i have to respond to this again after effectively destroying the galen connection in my last post.

I specifically gave definition to Nutfah including references:

Stage 1
Galen says

the form of the S-emen prevails: óðÝñìáôïò in the 2nd century meant semen(Henry Liddell and Robert Scott. Greek-English Lexicon. 7th Edition. Harper and Brothers. 1883, page 1414.)

The word for s-emen in the Arabic is maniyyin as shown in the verses:

nutfah is not as a synonym for s- emen, rather it is a drop of a single extract coming from the s- emen (and the female equivalent), containing essential substances like a s- perm or egg.

Nutfah can be used for both male and female:

As used in the verse

Verily, We have created man from Nutfah Amshaj, in order to try him, so, We made him hearer and seer. (76:2)

The companion of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), Ibn Abbas (6th century) mentions that the nutfah is:

from a weak drop of the water/fluid of man and woman. (Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas.)

Ibn Kathir (13th century), while commenting on the 2nd verse in chapter 76 of the Qur’an, cites Ibn Abbas (6th century) as describing the nutfah stage as the mixing of two fluids, therefore confirming the statement above: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1422&Itemid=132

So this is not even remotely related to what galen was talking about:


Stage 2:
Galen says

The second stage, a bloody vascularised embryo with unshaped brain, liver and heart

Galen’s second stage that refers to the embryo as being filled with blood.

If the Qur’an borrowed Galenic views on the developing human embryo, the words that should have been used are (mal-at) which means the manner in which something is filled, and (dam) which means blood(Ibid, Vol. 3, page, 917, Ibid, Vol. 5, page 2134.)

the word .alaqah is used in the Qur’an.

Alaqa means
a. Hanging/suspended
b. Suckling blood
c. Leech/worm like substance
d. Blood-clot
(http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000421.pdf)

The word .alaqah alone would not represent the Galenic stage here, because its meanings do not encapsulate the word “filled” and its use to mean blood-clot would be misplaced as the word for blood-clot in Greek is not what is used by galen.

Ibn Kathir explains the word ᶜalaqah to mean a “dangling clot” and Lane's Arabic-Lexicon (link above) clarifies that it means a blood-clot “because of its clinging together”, rather than its physical appearance.

Therefore, using the Arabic words Mala-t and dam would have been more appropriate, because Galen specifically refers to “filled with blood” and not just blood.

At this second stage, Galen uses the word fleshy, to refer to the appearance of the embryo. This undermines the claim that the quranic stages are similar to Galen, because words that can mean fleshy in Arabic, such as mudhgah and lahm, are used to describe later stages. Galen mentions this stage as a fleshy substance filled with blood.

The word in the Qur’an used to describe this stage doesn’t encompass such a meaning, because ᶜalaqah, if we assume it to mean blood or blood-clot, does not encompass a fleshy substance filled with blood.

If someone had to summarise the following statement into Arabic: a blood filled substance that is fleshy - what words must they use to best represent the meaning of the statement?

One thing is for sure that word is not Alaqa


Stage 3:

The Qur’an mentions mudghah as a chewed-like substance and a small piece of flesh.

In contrast, Galen discusses the “conformation” of “the three ruling parts”, “silhouettes” and “twigs”, which is most likely in reference to limb bone formation. He details these three ruling parts as being more visible than the stomach and the limbs.

However, the Qur’an makes no mention of this, and its mention of limb formation comes at the next stage. It is both implausible and impractical, therefore, to suggest that the Qur’an copied the works of Galen as it does not include any of the descriptions provided by Galen at this stage. Also, the word mudghah would have been appropriately used as a summary of the ancient Greek word ἐμβρύειον (em-vree-on)(Greek-English Lexicon. 7th Edition. Harper and Brothers. 1883, page 460.), which means the flesh of an embryo, however Galen did not use this word.

would the word mudghah accurately encompass the meaning of “the three ruling parts”, “silhouettes” and “limbs”? The answer is no. This conclusion is also supported by the fact that there is no mention of flesh, a small piece of meat or something that has been bitten in the original Greek of Galen’s writings describing this stage.

To assert that the Qur’an borrowed Galenic embryology in light of the striking differences discussed above, is tantamount to claiming that evolution and creationism are similar because they address the same field of science. Many questions are raised that belittle this contention, such as: how could the Qur’an, and by extension the Prophet Muhammad, have known what was right, dismissed what was wrong and ensured that the whole quranic narrative on the development of the human embryo was congruent with reality?[i][/i][size=14pt]

You claimed that embryology is detailed in the quran: unheard of at the time and I said that is false because long before the koran was written others had an idea and gave a detail explanation of it. . .Even muslim doctors acknowledge. . .Your refutations are based ONLY on semantics and not on the idea that other people that existed for hundreds of years knew about it as well. . .The basic summary of Galen embryology is VERY similar to that of the koran if you insist that Galen got it wrong then so did the koran. . .Here is a summary of the stages in Galen embryology. . . \

GALEN'S STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT

STAGE 1. The two semens

STAGE 1b. plus menstrual blood

STAGE 2. unshaped flesh

STAGE 3. bones

STAGE 3b. flesh grows on and around the bones

QURANIC STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT

STAGE 1. nutfa -- male and female fluids

STAGE 2. ‘alaqa -- clot

STAGE 3. mudagha -- piece or lump of flesh

STAGE 4. ‘adaam -- bones

STAGE 5. dressing the bones with muscles

If the two are not similar then I agree I do not know the meaning of similarity. . . Modern embryology does not support the koranic version. . .From the spdc website it says that "The final stage of human development which the Qur'an describes is the creation of bones, and the clothing of bones with flesh. However, according to modern embryologists including Prof. Moore, the tissue from which bone originates, known as mesoderm, is the same tissue as that from which muscle ("flesh" develops [17]. Thus bone and muscles begin to develop simultaneously, rather than sequentially. Whereas however most of the muscle tissue that we have is laid down before birth, bones continue to develop and calcify (strengthen with calcium) right into one's teenage years. So far from bones being clothed with flesh, it would be more accurate if the Qur'an had said that muscles started to develop at the same time as bones, but completed their development earlier. The idea that bones are clothed with flesh is not only scientifically completely false, but is directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen" . . .

It then goes on to say that "Even professor Keith L. Moore, once at the University of Toronto, who Muslims love to quote as a scientist who saw the light of the Koran? If you buy Moore’s latest sixth edition University textbook called "The developing human", he actually directs his readers to read an essay by Basim Musallam, who we just quoted. who shows that the Koran merely echoes what Greek doctor "Galen" wrote 450 years earlier. It seems Dr. Moore is not as impressed today. (B. Musallam, The human embryo in Arabic scientific and religious thought, in, G. R. Dunstan (ed.) (University of Exeter Press, 1990) The human embryo: Aristotle and the Arabic and European traditions, pp. 32-46)"

Semantics means nothing here, Galen knew about the different stages of embryology long before it was written in the koran, he got some things wrong and so that the koran. . .Even muslims doctors acknowledge the similarities. . .There are difference but over all they are similar and the claim that embryology was not know at that time is a big fail. . . .

1. Historians such as Manfred Ullman and Franz Rosenthal are skeptical about the material referring to bin Kalada. They refer to him as a legendary figure,[ M. Ullman. Die Medizin im Islam. Leiden ad Cologne. 1970, pages 19-20; F. Rosenthal, apud his translation of Ibn Khaldun’s Muqaddima, II, 373.] which has literary allusions to characters of fictitious creation. Professor Gerald Hawting, in his essay The Development of the Biography of al-Harith ibn Kalada and the Relationship between Medicine and Islam, writes:

[i]“In these latter sources the information about al-Harith is fragmentary, references to his profession as a doctor are not consistent and, where they occur, tend to be incidental, and there seems to be little information about the nature of his medicine or detail about his life.”[The Islamic World: From Classic to Modern Times. Edited, C. E. Bosworth et al. Darwin. 1991, page 129]

From this perspective, using unreliable or inconclusive historical narratives concerning bin Kalada’s “profession as a doctor” serve to weaken the argument that the Prophet copied the 7th century physician.

2. There appears to be no evidence of a major medical school in either the 6th or 7th century. The academic medic and historian Plinio Prioreschi in his book A History of Medicine highlights that there are no Persian sources that substantiate the claim that Jundishapur played a significant role in the history of medicine

3. It is generally believed that bin Kalada graduated from the Persian medical school at Jundishapur. However, the existence of such a school has recently been questioned by a number of leading historians. For instance David C. Lindberg in his book The Beginnings of Western Science highlights the legendary status of the school:

“An influential mythology has developed around Nestorian activity in the city of Gondeshapur [Jundishapur] in south-western Persia. According to the often-repeated legend, the Nestorians turned Gondeshapur into a major intellectual center by the sixth century, establishing what some enthusiasts have chosen to call a university, where instruction in all of the Greek disciplines could be obtained. It is alleged that Gondeshapur had a medical school, with a curriculum based on Alexandrian textbooks, and a hospital modeled on Byzantine hospitals, which kept the realm supplied with physicians trained in Greek medicine. Of greatest importance, Gondeshapur is held to have played a critical role in the translation of Greek scholarship into Near Eastern languages and, indeed, to have been the single most important channel by which Greek science passed to the Arabs. Recent research has revealed a considerably less dramatic reality. We have no persuasive evidence for the existence of a medical school or a hospital at Gondeshapur, although, there seems to have been a theological school and perhaps an attached infirmary. No doubt Gondeshapur was the scene of serious intellectual endeavour and a certain amount of medical practice —it supplied a string of physicians for the Abbasid court at Baghdad beginning in the eighth century— but it is doubtful that it ever became a major center of medical education or of translating activity. If the story of Gondeshapur is unreliable in its details, the lesson it was meant to teach is nonetheless valid.” ( David C. Lindberg. The Beginnings of Western Science. University Of Chicago Press. 1992, pages, 164-165)

So we are talking of a school that never even existed....

Other historians have written about the existence of the school of which some of them are also muslims, I know you as a muslim will prefer to take the opinions of those that agree with the muslim claim. . .From the same website it says. . ."It is one thing to find the Qur'an repeating the same embryological ideas as those described originally by the ancient Greeks, but is there any way in which we can be sure that the material was familiar to the Arabs of Muhammed's day? Given that so much of what the Qur'an says is based upon Galen's beliefs, it is particularly significant that some 26 books of his work were translated into Syriac as early as the sixth century AD by Sergius of Resh' Aina (Ra's al-Ain). Sergius was a Christian priest who studied medicine in Alexandria and worked in Mesopotania, dying in Constantinople in about AD 532 [].G. Sarton, (Williams and Wilkins, 1927) Introduction to the History of Science, vol I, pp. 423-424 He was one of a number of Nestorian (Syriac) Christians who translated the Greek medical corpus into Syriac; others included Bishop Gregorius, al-Rahawy, al-Taybuti, the Patriarch Theodorus and al-Sabakti [A. A. Khairallah (American Press, Beirut, 1946) Outline of Arabic Contributions to Medicine, p. 24].

The Nestorians experienced persecution from the mainstream church and fled to Persia, where they brought their completed translations of the Greek doctors' works and founded many schools of learning. The most famous of these by far was the great medical school of Jundishapur in what is now south-east Iran, founded in AD 555 by the Persian King Chosroes the Great (also known as Anusharwan or Nushirvan), whose long reign lasted from AD 531 to around 579.

The major link between Islamic and Greek medicine must be sought in late Sasanian medicine, especially in the School of Jundishapur rather than that of Alexandria. At the time of the rise of Islam Jundishapur was at its prime. It was the most important medical centre of its time, combining the Greek, Indian and Iranian medical traditions in a cosmopolitan atmosphere which prepared the ground for Islamic medicine. The combining of different schools of medicine foreshadowed the synthesis that was to be achieved in later Islamic medicine [].H. Bailey (ed) (Cambridge University Press, 1975) Cambridge History of Iran, vol 4, p. 414

Arab medicine, to deal with only one side of this question, borrowed from many sources. The biggest debt was to the Greeks ... The medicine of Jundi Shapur was also mainly Greek. There must have been Syriac translations in the library of the hospital there long before the Arabs came to Persia ... According to Ibn Abi Usaybi'a the first to translate Greek works into Syriac was Sergius of Ra's-al-`Ayn [sic], who translated both medical and philosophical works. It was probably he who worked for Chosroes the Great and it was his translations in all probability which were used in Jundi Shapur [.C. Elgood (Camrbidge University Press, 1951) A Medical History of Persia, p. 98]



According to Muslim historians, especially Ibn Abi Usaybia and al-Qifti [,Ibn Abi Usaybia, "Classes of Physicians" in 649 AH/1242AD; or al-Qifti, "History of the Philosophers", 624AH/1227AD.] the most celebrated early graduate of Jundishapur was a doctor named al Harith Ibn Kalada, who was an older contemporary of Muhammed. "He was born probably about the middle of the sixth century, at Ta'if, in the tribe of Banu Thaqif. He traveled through Yemen and then Persia where he received his education in the medical sciences at the great medical school of Jundi-Shapur and thus was intimately acquainted with the medical teachings of Aristotle, Hippocrates and Galen." [M. Z. Siddiqi (Calcutta University, 1959) Studies in Arabic and Persian Medical Literature, p. 6-7 ]

He became famous partly as a result of a consultation with King Chosroes [E. G. Browne (Cambridge University Press, 1962) Arabian Medicine, p. 1]. Later he became a companion of the Prophet Muhammed himself, and according to the Muslim medical traditions Muhammed actually sought medical advice from him [ M. J. L. Young et al., (Cambridge University Press, 1990) Cambridge History of Arabic Literature: Religion, Learning and Science in the `Abbasid Period, p. 342 ]. He may even have been a relative of the Prophet and his "teachings undoubtedly influenced the latter" [i.e., Muhammed] [M. Meyerhof (1931) Ali at-Tabari's "Paradise of Wisdom", one of the oldest Arabic Compendiums of Medicine, Isis, vol 16, pp. 6-54 ]. "Such medical knowledge as Muhammed possessed, he may well have acquired from Haris bin Kalda [sic], an Arab, who is said to have left the desert for a while and gone to Jundi Shapur to study medicine...On his return Haris settled in Mecca and became the foremost physician of the Arabs of the desert. Whether he ever embraced Islam is uncertain, but this did not prevent the Prophet from sending his sick friends to consult him." [C. Elgood, op. cit., p. 66 ]

Harith Ibn Kalada was unable to father any children, and it is said that he adopted Harith al-Nasar (Nadr), who was apparently a cousin of Muhammed, and also a doctor by profession [43]. Interestingly Nadr mocked Muhammed, saying that the stories in the Qur'an were far less entertaining and instructive than the old Persian legends he had grown up with. Perhaps he recognised that the Qur'an had human sources for some of its stories? As a result of this Muhammed became his sworn enemy, and the Prophet put him to death following his capture in the Battle of Badr in 624 [M. Meyerhof (1926) New light on Hunain Ibn Ishaq and his period, Isis, vol 8, pp. 685-724 ].

So we have just the link we need to show how "The translations (into Syriac) of Sergius Ras el Ain, penetrated to Jandi-Shapur. During the first years of the 7th century [more likely the end of the sixth century], Harith ben Kalada studied medicine there and Muhammad owed to Harith a part of his medical knowledge. Thus, with the one as well as the other, we easily recognize the traces of Greek (medicine)." [L. LeClerc, Histoire de la M‚decine Arabe (Burt Franklin, New York; originally published in Paris, 1876) vol I, p. 123 ] To summarise: Sergius died about the time that Chosroes the Great began his reign, and may even have been employed by Chosroes to translate Galen from Greek into Syriac. Halfway through his reign Chosroes founded Jundishapur, where Galen's manuscripts must surely have been kept in translation. Towards the end of his reign he had an audience with Harith Ibn Kalada, who later became associated with Muhammed.

We also know that according to Muslim traditions part of at least one verse in the Qur'an that relates to the developing human came originally from human lips. While Muhammed was dictating verse 23:14 to `Abdullah Ibn Abi Sarh, the latter got carried away by the beauty of what he heard about the creation of man, and when Muhammed reached the words "another creature" his companion uttered the exclamation "Blessed be God, the best of creators!" Muhammed accepted these words as though they were the continuation of his revelation and told Ibn Abi Sarh to write them down, even though they were quite clearly his companion's words, not Muhammed's or Allah's words [M. Meyerhof (1926) New light on Hunain Ibn Ishaq and his period, Isis, vol 8, pp. 685-724]."

tbaba1234: Mountains as Pegs:

Your conclusions are laughable..... It is sad that people come up with things that even a 7th century arab will not believe, if the prophet said that to 7th century Arabs: He would have no followers;

And the mountains as pegs? And [have We not] created you in pairs, (78:7-

The word used for pegs in the Quran is awtaad::

Awtaad is driven deeply into the ground to secure the tents of the desert Arabs: That is where the term comes from:

Driven deep to hold the tent from falling off right?. . .How do the mountains hold the earth from shaking?. . . Considering that the koran says that the mountains are pegs to stop the earth from shaking. . .

So when the word 'awtaad' is talked about: It refers to something driven deeply into the ground: I didn't just come up with an arbitary definition

So my analogy with the mount everest was accurate. And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shift with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves; (16:15)

False, something driven into the ground to serve as a peg, your example Awtaad is driven deeply into the ground to secure the tents of the desert Arabs, secure hear means to hold and stop from falling of. . .That also means the mountains are supposed to secure the earth and stop it from shaking as the koran says. .But mountains to not secure the earth and stop it from shaking. . .That is just not true. . .

Have you ever heard of isostasy?

It refers to the gravitational equilibrum of the earth, it changes from place to place and it is affected by..... wait for it the mountains:

The force of gravity arises from the pull of the whole Earth, but it varies slightly from place to place because of the unequal local distribution of mass in the Earth's surface layer.

If a mountain were simply extra rocky material rising above the surrounding plain, the force of gravity would be greater on the mountain by an amount that depends on the size of the mountain, its density, and the slightly greater distance to the mountain top from the centre of the Earth. (http://www.earthfacts.net/earth-dynamics/earthscrustisostasy/)

so the distribution of mass affects the gravitational equilibrium of an area:

It continues:

An increase in the acceleration due to gravity occurs across mountain ranges, but not as much as would be expected because the extra mass rising up is largely compensated for by the greater depth to which the base of the mountains extends down into the denser supporting medium (the astheno­sphere).

(http://www.earthfacts.net/earth-dynamics/earthscrustisostasy/)

The gravitational equilibrium changes given the features of the mountain:: There is an increase in the acceleration due to gravity in mountain range:

Ted Nield talks about this in his book: Supercontinent – 10 billion years in the life of our planet (Granta).

Read about it here: http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/gsl/pid/6565;jsessionid=D364AAA75A6F2AC13445470D8B846060

Please read it first:

How does this support the koranic claim that mountains are pegs that stop the earth from shaking?. . .Did you really read what you posted?. . .Its clear you really do not understand what it means, you just went to an islamic apologist website where they really do not know what it means and brought it up as a defense. . . here is a simple explanation of what it means from wikipedia. . ."Isostasy (Greek ísos "equal", stásis "standstill" is a term used in geology to refer to the state of gravitational equilibrium between the earth's lithosphere and asthenosphere such that the tectonic plates "float" at an elevation which depends on their thickness and density. This concept is invoked to explain how different topographic heights can exist at the Earth's surface. When a certain area of lithosphere reaches the state of isostasy, it is said to be in isostatic equilibrium. Isostasy is not a process that upsets equilibrium, but rather one which restores it (a negative feedback). It is generally accepted that the earth is a dynamic system that responds to loads in many different ways. However, isostasy provides an important 'view' of the processes that are happening in areas that are experiencing vertical movement. Certain areas (such as the Himalayas) are not in isostatic equilibrium, which has forced researchers to identify other reasons to explain their topographic heights (in the case of the Himalayas, which are still rising, by proposing that their elevation is being "propped-up" by the force of the impacting Indian plate).
In the simplest example, isostasy is the principle of buoyancy where an object immersed in a liquid is buoyed with a force equal to the weight of the displaced liquid. On a geological scale, isostasy can be observed where the Earth's strong lithosphere exerts stress on the weaker asthenosphere which, over geological time flows laterally such that the load of the lithosphere is accommodated by height adjustments."

If I may ask what do you understand by isotosy and how does it stop the earth from shaking?. . .Bottom line is mountains do not stop the earth from shaking, instead it is the shaking of the earth that causes mountains. . . mountains are formed because the the tectonic plates collide, shaking the earth, so if i were a mountain i would want the earth to shake, to make more mountains. . . .

^ You are being dishonest in your posts now,

You have totally disfigured galen stages to make it look similar: You make such simplistic almost ignoranant generalizations:

Galen Stages

Stage 1: But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the s -emen prevails. At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it s-emen.

An artery and a vein are observed to go to each of the t-esticles, not in a straight path, as they do all other parts, but twisting first in many shapes, like grape tendrils or ivy... Andin these many twists that they make before reaching the t-esticles you can see the blood gradually growing white. And finally, when the vessel has now reached the t-esticle, the substance of the semen is clearly visible in it...but they generated it from blood, which spent a great deal of time in them; for this is the use of the twisting. And as they altered the quality of the blood they changed it to s-emen.

1. The form of semen, The mixing with blood

The Quran only talks about Nuftah in this stage::: No blood, NO SEMEN::::

PLEASE STOP BEING DISHONEST!!!

Stage 2::

Galen says: But when it has been filled with blood, and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the fetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. [/b]Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form s-emen but, as was said, fetus…

Galen talks about a flesh like object filled with blood and talk about a change in the shape

The Quran mentions nothing about flesh in this stage:: Nothing about being filled with blood,

It says Alaqa -
a clinging entity; a blood clot:::

Where is the flesh? where is the filled with blood??

[b]STOP BEING DISHONEST!!!

Stage 3:

Galen says:

The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts. You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form ‘twigs’, as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches

Where are the twigs in the Quranic Narration?? or the silhouttes??

The Quran uses mudghah as a chewed-like substance and a small piece of flesh.

IS THIS NOT STRAIGHTFORWARD ENOUGH DO I HAVE TO SPEAK IN YOUR MOTHERTONGUE

DO NOT BE DISHONEST


At least You can do some independent research instead of flooding me with regurgitated stuff and copying from websites::

The galen steps are more like this

1. SEMEN MIXES WITH BLOOD
2.Flesh Filled with blood
3. Twigs and silhouttes

The Quran says

We created man from an essence of clay,

then We placed him as a drop of fluid in a safe place. (Nuftah)

Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form, (Alaqa)

and then We made that form into a lump of flesh, (Mughaggh)

and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms.


HOW DOES THIS LOOK LIKE the same?

NO BLOOD MIXING WITH S-EMEN
NO FLESH FILLED with blood
No twigs or silhouttes

Each stage is different/independent in the quranic narration:
Nuftah then alaqa, then lump of flesh

This fits in brilliantly (almost remarkably) with modern knowledge: I am talking present day knowledge and i can give a detailed breakdown using references from the 2000's.

tbaba1234: The galen steps are more like this

1. SEMEN MIXES WITH BLOOD
2.Flesh Filled with blood
3. Twigs and silhouttes

Are there only 3 stages in Galen?. . .Now who is dishonest here?. . .Here it is and let me break it down. . .

"But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails . At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. Stage one i.e Semen. . .No where does it talk about anything mixing with blood. . .Pls show me where it talks about anything mixing with blood as you claim. . .

But when it has been filled with blood , and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. STAGE 2. unshaped flesh

The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts. You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches. Stage 3 Twigs and silhouttes

The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed...

... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow. . .Stage 4a, bones. . Stage 4b flesh grows on and around the bones[b][/b]

The Quran says

We created man from an essence of clay,

then We placed him as a drop of fluid in a safe place. (Nuftah)

Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form, (Alaqa)

and then We made that form into a lump of flesh, (Mughaggh)

and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms.

HOW DOES THIS LOOK LIKE the same?

NO BLOOD MIXING WITH S-EMEN
NO FLESH FILLED with blood
No twigs or silhouttes

Only that it does not talk about blood mixing with semen, that is your own making. . .And you deliberately forgot to add the fourth part, is it because they look very similar?. . .Yet you shout about dishonesty. . . . . .I actually acknowledge that there are different but similar in some ways. . .Even islamic doctors knowledge that so I don't really know what you are on about here. . .The premise of my argument was that people knew about the different stages of development long before the koran was written and the Koran does not get it completely right when compared to modern embryology. . .

Each stage is different/independent in the quranic narration:
Nuftah then alaqa, then lump of flesh

This fits in brilliantly (almost remarkably) with modern knowledge: I am talking present day knowledge and i can give a detailed breakdown using references from the 2000's.

Nope it doesn't. . .Bone are not formed before flesh, as the koran claims. . .You are free to bring any modern studies that shows bones forming before flesh. . .

The three stages of human embryology. . .

Week 1–3
5–7 days after fertilization, the blastocyst attaches to the wall of the uterus (endometrium). When it comes into contact with the endometrium it performs implantation. Implantation connections between the mother and the embryo will begin to form, including the umbilical cord. The embryo's growth centers around an axis, which will become the spine and spinal cord. The brain, spinal cord, heart, and gastrointestinal tract begin to form.[2]

Week 4–5
Chemicals produced by the embryo stop the woman's menstrual cycle. Neurogenesis is underway, showing brain activity at about the 6th week.[3] The heart will begin to beat around the same time. Limb buds appear where the arms and legs will grow later. Organogenesis begins. The head represents about one half of the embryo's axial length, and more than half of the embryo's mass. The brain develops into five areas. Tissue formation occurs that develops into the vertebra and some other bones. The heart starts to beat and blood starts to flow.[2]

Week 6–8
Myogenesis and neurogenesis have progressed to where the embryo is capable of motion, and the eyes begin to form. Organogenesis and growth continue. Hair has started to form along with all essential organs. Facial features are beginning to develop. At the end of the 8th week, the embryonic stage is over, and the fetal stage begins.[2]. . .

Pls how does this come close to what is written in the koran?. . . .

Instead of going on this merry -go round: Id have expected you to ask how the islamic narrative fit in with modern embryology: All dictionary references will be provided so you do not think im making up meanings:

Please read:

STAGE 1:

then We placed him as a drop of fluid (nutfah)

in a safe place'

We will look at both parts seperately: Nuftah and in a safe place

Nutfah means:

1. a dribble, a trickle, a drop or Fluid (Hans Wehr. A Dictionary of Modern Arabic. Edited by J Milton Cowan. 3rd Edition. 1976, page 974.)

2. a singular entity which is a part of a bigger group of its kind (Lisan Al-Arab dictionary, Book 5, page 725.)

3.the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) explained the nutfah as a combination of substances “from a male nutfah and from a female nutfah" (Musnad Ahmad, Vol. 1, page 465)

4. The Qur’an further clarifies that that the nutfah is a single entity or a drop from a larger group:

Had he not been a s-perm (nutfah) from s-emen (maniyyin) emitted?

5. The companion of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), Ibn Abbas (6th century) mentions that the nutfah is:

from a weak drop of the water/fluid of man and woman. (Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas.)

6.Ibn Kathir (13th century), while commenting on the 2nd verse in chapter 76 of the Qur’an, cites Ibn Abbas (6th century) as describing the nutfah stage as the mixing of two fluids, therefore confirming the statement above: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1422&Itemid=132

This means the fluid of the man and the fluid of the woman when they meet and mix.

Scientific Interpretation:

The principles put forward by both the Qur’an and the Prophetic traditions coincide with what is known today of modern embryology. The nutfah stage specifically implies the process of fertilisation, which requires the ‘mingling’ of components from the father’s semen and the mother’s equivalent. These components form a single cell known as the zygote.

In regard to this, embryologists John Allan and Beverley Kramer state:

The human individual arises from the conjugation of two minute structures called cells, one from the mother (oocyte) and one from the father (spermatozoon). These are called gametes. Together, these gametes form a single cell, the zygote, from which the entire embryo, including its surrounding membranes, grows. (John Allan and Beverley Kramer. The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 1.)

Each one of the two cell structures from both the mother and the father need to be contained in fluids necessary for fertilization. The spermatozoon is contained in fluid called semen and the oocyte is coated in oviductal secretions required for its viability and fertilizability.

Bruce Koeppen and Bruce Stanton explain:

Oviductal secretions coat and infuse the cumulus-oocyte complex and may be required for viability and fertilizability

(Berne and Levy Physiology. 6th Edition. Bruce M Koeppen and Bruce A Stanton. Mosby. 2009, page 767.)

Summary :

The nuftah stage: the formation of the zygote, via the mingling of two fluids from the mother and the father, which contains two small cell structures (the oocyte and the spermatozoon).

1b
In a safe (qaraarin) place (makeen)

qaraarin means to make sedentary, to establish, to assign, to schedule, to determine, to stipulate, to regulate and to decide; and it carries the further meanings of to confirm, to establish and to affirm.(Ibid, page 778.)

makeen has meanings that include to place, to put or set down firmly and to put in position. (Hans Wehr, page 751.)

The combination of these two words provide connotations of: in a safe place, in a place firmly fixed, in a safe lodging and in a firm resting place.

Scientific Interpretation

The terms used by the Qur’an at this stage coincide with modern embryology. The zygote divides into a ball of cells with an outer shell to form the blastocyst. Studies in embryology assert that around the 6th day after fertilization the blastocyst implants itself securely into the uterine wall.

Implantation begins at about the 6th to 7th day after fertilization. The part of the blastocyst projecting into the uterine cavity remains relatively thin. The syntrophoblast contains a proteolytic enzyme which causes destruction of the endometrial cells so that that the blastocyst sinks deeper and deeper into the uterine mucosa…The final deficiency in the endometrium is sealed off by a blood or fibrin clot, overlying the blastocyst. This cover is called the operculum. By about 10 to 12 days after fertilization, the blastocyst is completely encased in the endometrium and thus, implantation is complete

(The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 23.)

The analysis of the words qaraarin makeen, reflect modern developments in embryology. The meanings offered by the combination of the words qaraarin makeen depict the blastocyst sinking ‘deeper and deeper’ and the sealing off of the endometrium with a ‘fibrin clot’ ensuring the blastocyst is ‘completely encased’.

Summary
The qaraarin makeen stage: the blastocyst sinking in the endomentrium, being completely
encased i.e. the process of implantation.

Stages:

1a and b : then We placed him as a drop of fluid (nutfah) in a safe place (qaraarin makeen)

1a. The process of fertilization
1b The process of implantation

Stage 2:

Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form (ᶜalaqah)

Alaqah Meaning:

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000421.pdf
There are 4 meanings:
a. Hanging/suspended or clinging
b. Suckling blood
c. Leech/worm like substance
d. Blood-clot


SCIENTIFIC INTERPRETATION

The myriad of meanings for the word ᶜalaqah correspond to various stages of the embryo’s development. Comparisons can be drawn between quranic and scientific depictions of the embryo’s appearance and its relationship with the womb. According to modern embryology, from day 15 the embryo is hanging or suspended via the ‘connecting stalk’ and it obtains nutrients through contact with the maternal blood vessels. This description bears a striking resemblance to the picture painted by the word ᶜalaqah – a ‘hanging’ or ‘suspended’ substance, obtaining nutrients from its host’s blood.

a. Hanging /suspended

The Embryo is connected to the cytotrophoblast by a connecting stalk of extra-embryonic mesoderm (primitive connective tissue). The stalk is the forerunner of the umbilical cord. (Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma. Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 2.)

Caviation of the extra-embryonic mesoderm does not occur at the connecting stalk which remains intact to[b] suspend[/b] the developing embryo in the extra-embryonic coelom (The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 27.)



b. Suckling blood

Due to the rapid growth of the embryo during the second week, there is a need for a more efficient means of nutritional and gaseous exchange. T[b]his is achieved when the embryonic blood vessels of the chorion come into contact with the maternal blood vessels of the decidua[/b].

... [by the third week]... The exchange of nutrients, respiratory gases and waste products between the maternal and fetal blood takes place across the placental membrane within intervillous spaces. Maternal blood enters these spaces from the spiral arteries, branches of the uterine artery, bringing nutrients and oxygen for the embryo and fetus (Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 10.)

c. LEECH/WORM-LIKE SUBSTANCE:

The ᶜalaqah stage suggests the process of neurulation and the initial stages of the folding of the embryo. Neurulation describes the process when the cranial and caudal ends of the neural tube close from days 19 to 25 (approx.); and the folding of the embryo involves the head and the tail being brought closer together.

The combination of these two physiological changes causes the embryo to resemble a leech or worm-like substance. For a useful illustration see this animation online: http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/Movies/larsen/neurul.mov

The folding of the embryo is responsible for forming a leech or worm-like shape, or as embryologists have described; a cylindric or tube-like structure.

significant event in the establishment of body form is the folding of the flat trilaminar embryonic disc into a somewhat cylindric embryo. Folding results from the rapid growth of the embryo, particularly the brain and the spinal cord. (Keith L. Moore and T. V. N. Persaud. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 7th Edition. Saunders. 2008, page 50.)


longitudinal folding, which occurs between days 21 and 24, result[ing] in … the embryo [bending] so that the head and tail are brought closer together...[to] form a tube-like structure (Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 7.)



Dale Layman in Anatomy Demystified describes the embryo as worm-like in appearance:

Another membrane becomes the yolk sac, which provides nourishment for the early embryo. By 24 days, a connecting stalk appears in the middle of the now worm-like body.

d. Blood clot:

THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PRIMARY CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM AND THE LACK OF BLOOD CIRCULATION UNTIL THE END OF THE THIRD WEEK

The development of the primary cardiovascular system is responsible for the blood-clot like external features of the embryo. By the end of the third week, the heart of the embryo connects with its blood vessels, the connecting stalk, the chorion and the yolk sac. It is during this period when the blood starts to circulate, before this time the blood is fluid but does not move around the embryo.

Keith Moore and P. V. N. Persuad explain:
The heart and great vessels form from mesenchymal cells in the heart primordium-cardiogenic area. Paired, endothelium-lined channels-endocardial heart tubes-develop during the third week and fuse to form a primordial heart tube. The tubular heart joins with blood vessels in the embryo, connecting stalk, chorion, and umbilical vesicle [yolk sac] to form a primordial cardiovascular system. By the end of the third week, the blood is circulating, and the heart begins to beat on day 21 or 22. ( Keith L. Moore and T. V. N. Persaud. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 7th Edition. Saunders. 2008, page 50.)


Summary

Then We made that drop of fluid into alaqa .....

The ᶜalaqah stage:
- The embryo is connected to the cytotrophoblast via a connecting stalk, as if it were hanging or suspended.

- The cranial and caudal ends of the neural tube close, known as neurulation; and during the initial stages of the folding of the embryo. It is upon the culmination of these processes that the embryo appears leech-like.

- The embryo obtains its nutrients via contact with the maternal blood vessels. This mirrors the action of an entity obtaining its nutrients via blood.

- The external features of the embryo resembles a blood-clot, this is due to the formation of the primary cardiovascular system and the lack of blood circulation until the end of the third week.

. . . .I knew it. .You and your fellow islamic apologist are very dishonest persons and very clear liars (sorry for the harsh words) but that is the fact. . If we are to go by the pure nonsense and tricks you applied here, then EVERY thing written in any text can be used to say or mean any thing. . .You took one word, gave a litany of meanings that are all different and used each different meaning of the word to apply to the same word and context where is that done?. . .How dishonest can one be?. . .

For example you said that there are 4 meanings to the word alaqah:
a. Hanging/suspended or clinging
b. Suckling blood
c. Leech/worm like substance
d. Blood-clot

You now went to apply all the 4 different meanings to each stage of alaqah?. . .What exactly does the koran mean when it says the word alaqah in context? Does it mean Hanging/suspending or suckling blood for example?. . .It can NOT mean both at the same time. . .The islamic apologist whose work you copied fraudulently tries to say that alaqh means all the 4 different words at the same time and uses it to construct a long argument. . .A word can have different 2 or more different meanings but when used one one of the meanings can apply at a time. . .You can not take all the different meanings of the word and apply them at the same time. if that is permissible then everything is permissible. . .

I noticed this dishonesty in a debate between Dr Willam Craig and an Islamic apologist, the islamic apologist was doing the same thing you and the apologist whose work you copied and all islamic apologist do. .Take a word give it 4-5 different meanings and then say that all the 4 or 4 different meanings are applicable in the context of what you are saying. . . William Craig showed him the absurdity of that and immediately gave used his method to discredit his argument. . He took 3 different words in Greek give a litany of different meanings to each word and used them to destroy the guys arguments. . .I can do the same with Galen embryological stages, during the question and answer time a guy came and used the guys method to embarrass him. . .I will take the Greek word sperm give it a litany of different words, take the Greek word for Flesh give it a litany of different words and use it to arrive exactly at the same conclusion about the modern human embryological development. . . .

A word can only have one meaning in a particular context when used with or without and object. . .The methods and tactics used by islamic apologist is purely fraudulent.Alaqah has 4 different meanings and all the 4 different meanings are then applied in a particular context and used to explain or give meaning to it. eh?. . .Interesting. . .That is just a play on words and a fraudulent one at that. . .

The next stage of human development defined in the Qur’an is mudghah. This term means to chew, mastication, chewing, to be chewed, and a small piece of meat. It also describes the embryo after it passes to another stage and becomes flesh. Other meanings[b] include something that teeth have chewed and left visible marks on ; and marks that change in the process of chewing due to the repetitive act[/b].The mudghah stage is elaborated on further, elsewhere in the Qur’an:
then from a fleshy lump (mudghah),

and then We made that form into a lump of flesh (mudghah), formed and unformed

The Arabic word used here for ‘formed’ is mukhallqah which can also mean ‘shaped’ or ‘moulded’

SCIENTIFIC INTERPRETATION

Taking a lexical approach to the interpretation of the word, this stage deals with the 4th week, when somites begin to develop and shift their position to surround the neural tube and notochord. The appearance of the embryo at this stage corresponds with the meaning: ‘to be chewed’ and ‘something that teeth have chewed and left visible marks on’.

Concerning somite development, embryologist T. W. Sadler writes:

When somites first form from presomitic mesoderm, they exist as a ball of mesoderm (fibroblast-like) cells. These cells then undergo a process of epithelization and arrange themselves in a donut shape around a small lumen. By the beginning of the fourth week, cells in the ventral and medial walls of the somite lose their epithelial characteristics, become mesenchymal (fibroblast-like) again, and shift their position to surround the neural tube and the notochord. Collectively, these cells form the sclerotome that will differentiate into the vertebrae and ribs

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRQOyWOCGeOo3SBSpGhMSKhRmlawq6lzwiIet2vbcLX5TAP6GYGw

Another meaning for the word mudghah includes something looking like a morsel of flesh. This too is an accurate description of the embryo’s appearance at this stage. Interestingly, the quranic explanation of mudghah as being “formed and unformed”, can refer to the organogenetic period, during which all the main organs have begun to develop, but are not yet fully formed.This period also occurs at around the 4th week.

Summary:
The mudgha stage:
- The development of somites giving the embryo the appearance of a chewed substance.
- What looks like a morsel of flesh - an accurate description of embryo's appearance at this stage.
- It also describes the organogenetic period (the development of organs, not yet fully formed).

and We made that lump into bones (ᶜidhaam)

From the mudghah stage, ᶜidhaam are created, this is the next stage. The word ᶜidhaam in the Arabic language means bone, and is specifically applied to the bones of the hands and feet, or of the arms and legs of an animal, “upon which is the flesh”. (An Arabic-English Lexicon. Librairie Du Liban. 1968. Vol. 5, page 2087.)


SCIENTIFIC INTERPRETATION

The ᶜidhaam stage pertains to the development of the axial and limb skeleton, occurring at around the 5th week. Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma explain:

The origin of mesenchymal cells forming the skeletal tissues varies in different regions of the body. Mesenchymal cells forming the axial skeleton arise from the mesodermal somites, whereas the bones of the appendicular skeleton are derived from the somatopleuric mesenchyme of the lateral plate mesoderm. After reaching theirdestination the mesenchymal cells condense and form models of bones. The subsequent differentiation of mesenchymal cells into chondroblasts or osteoblasts is genetically controlled. (Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 20.)

‘Limb bones’ is the specified meaning of the word ᶜidhaam, and therefore can refer to the development of the limb buds which give rise to the development of the limbs and the appendicular skeleton.
Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma elaborate on the formation of the limb and appendicular skeleton:

The appendicular skeleton consists of limb girdles and the bones of the limbs. The bones of the appendicular skeleton develop from mesenchymal condensations which become cartilaginous models. (The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 147.)

Summary:

The ᶜidhaam stage: the formation of the axial, limb and appendicular skeleton.

Mis conception:

A common misconception, usually made by non-Arabists, is that this verse can be literally translated as “and We made that lump into bones”. From this, they conclude that this verse is unscientific because a lump of flesh cannot turn into a mass of bones. However, this is based upon a crude understanding of Arabic grammar and the Qur’an’s eloquence.

This verse, from a grammatical perspective, has the meanings of: “and We made of/from/out of the lump, bones”.

This is why the Indian Islamic scholar Yusuf Ali translates this verse as “then we made out of that lump bones”; M. H. Shakir translates it as “then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones”; and the British scholar of Arabic and Islamic studies A. J. Arberry, in his translation of the Qur’an which is still used by academics today, translates this verse as “then We created of the tissue bones”.

NOT REAL BONES?

Another proposition from commentators is that at this stage there are no real bones. It is argued that the apparent bones are mere cartilage as ossification is incomplete and, as such, the Qur’an must therefore be inaccurate. They further assert that the Arabic term for cartilage, ghurdoof should have been used instead of ᶜidhaam. Although a valid contention, it is misplaced. The Arabic word for cartilage refers to a type of cartilage that is not a precursor to bones, but rather remains as flexible connective tissue, as Lane’s Arabic-English Lexicon states:

any soft bone, such as is, or may be eaten and [i.e. the soft or cartilaginous, part,] the firm part that is harder than flesh and softer than bone, of the nose

Conversely, the word ᶜidhaam encompasses the cartilaginous form of the bones as the skeletal framework is put in place. Furthermore, the use of the word ᶜidhaam is more accurate because it also carries the meaning of “bone, but properly applied to the bones of the hands and feet, or of the arms and legs, of an animal, upon which is the flesh.

We clothed (kausana) the bones with flesh (lahm)

The kasauna and lahm (the key words in this stage): the migration and aggregation of the muscles cells around the developing limb and axial skeleton, to form muscles, tendons and connective tissue.

so the total summary:



1a and b : then We placed him as a drop of fluid (nutfah) in a safe place (qaraarin makeen)

1a. The process of fertilization
1b The process of implantation
2. The ᶜalaqah stage:
- The embryo is connected to the cytotrophoblast via a connecting stalk, as if it were hanging or suspended.

- The cranial and caudal ends of the neural tube close, known as neurulation; and during the initial stages of the folding of the embryo. It is upon the culmination of these processes that the embryo appears leech-like.

- The embryo obtains its nutrients via contact with the maternal blood vessels. This mirrors the action of an entity obtaining its nutrients via blood.

- The external features of the embryo resembles a blood-clot, this is due to the formation of the primary cardiovascular system and the lack of blood circulation until the end of the third week.

3. and then We made that form into a lump of flesh (mudghah)formed and unformed.

The mudgha stage:
- The development of somites giving the embryo the appearance of a chewed substance.
- What looks like a morsel of flesh - an accurate description of embryo's appearance at this stage.
- It also describes the organogenetic period (the development of organs, not yet fully formed).

4. and We made that lump into bones (ᶜidhaam)

Summary:

The ᶜidhaam stage: the formation of the axial, limb and appendicular skeleton.

5.the migration and aggregation of the muscles cells around the developing limb and axial skeleton, to form muscles, tendons and connective tissue.

There r muslims that try to apply every statement in the Quran and apply pseudo-science to it, even when they are ambiguous.

I think the embryology example is one of the clearest examples of the brilliance of the Quran in terms of natural phenomenon because once you know a little arabic , you become even more certain of it...

How does this support the koranic claim that mountains are pegs that stop the earth from shaking?. . .Did you really read what you posted?. . .Its clear you really do not understand what it means, you just went to an islamic apologist website where they really do not know what it means and brought it up as a defense.

That explanation is not correct: It is proposed by some muslims but it is clearly a wrong explanation with no scientific basis:

The quran never said the mountains stops the earth from shaking: the mountains with secure pegs to stablises the mountains NOT earth. We know that mountains continue downwords. The mountains are fixed but can shake. They move with the ground but not leave and walk off. so the

And we placed on earth mountains, lest it tumbles with them, and we placed straight roads therein, that they may be guided.

With all due respect, my explanation of isostacy did not come from any islamic site:: i wrote it up myself. It only talks about the gravitation equilibrum from mountains roots in mountain ranges not the mountains stabilizing the earth.

The only physical phenomenon i tried to highlight is the mountains as pegs..

It is an attempt by some muslims to scientify everything by saying mountain stabilise the earth:: it is an inaccurate depiction, i feel.

Like i said; the quran is a book of signs not science:

Double post

tbaba12345: There r muslims that try to apply every statement in the Quran and apply pseudo-science to it, even when they are ambiguous.

I think the embryology example is one of the clearest examples of the brilliance of the Quran in terms of natural phenomenon because once you know a little arabic , you become even more certain of it...



That explanation is not correct: It is proposed by some muslims but it is clearly a wrong explanation with no scientific basis:

The quran never said the mountains stops the earth from shaking: the mountains with secure pegs to stablises the mountains NOT earth. We know that mountains continue downwords. The mountains are fixed but can shake. They move with the ground but not leave and walk off. so the

And we placed on earth mountains, lest it tumbles with them, and we placed straight roads therein, that they may be guided.

With all due respect, my explanation of isostacy did not come from any islamic site:: i wrote it up myself. It only talks about the gravitation equilibrum from mountains not the mountains stabilizing the earth.

The only physical phenomenon i tried to highlight is the mountains as pegs..

It is an attempt by some muslims to scientify everything by saying mountain stabilise the earth:: it is an inaccurate depiction, i feel.

Like i said; the quran is a book of signs not science:

You are a disingenuous apologist(like ever other by the way), remember you brought the case of isostasy and some how tried to use it as an explanation for mountains stopping the earth from shaking. . .This was what you wrote. . .

It refers to the gravitational equilibrum of the earth, it changes from place to place and it is affected by..... wait for it the mountains:. . .You tried to use the isostory argument , something you do not fully understand, when i called you out and showed you that you do not know what you are talking about you are now coming with this sorry of an excuse?. . .What has isostosy got to go with pegs?. . .Why did you bring it up?. .Now its obvious you are trying to give the passage a new meaning or render it in another way to escape the fact of pegging to avoid shaking. . .

And we placed on earth mountains, lest it tumbles with them, and we placed straight roads therein, that they may be guided.

Where then does your "Awtaad" apply in this sentence?. . .Pls show me. . .You see? you can only try to hard but you can not run away from it. . .Even from you new spin it still shows that the mountains were placed on the earth so that they stop it from tumbling. . .Do mountains stop the earth from tumbling?. . .

tbaba12345: We clothed (kausana) the bones with flesh (lahm)

The kasauna and lahm (the key words in this stage): the migration and aggregation of the muscles cells around the developing limb and axial skeleton, to form muscles, tendons and connective tissue.

so the total summary:

Clothed the bones with flesh . . . In what stage in the human embryology are bones clothed with flesh. . .It seem a play on words has failed you here, i expected you to give me a word and provide a litany of different words as you always do and tell me that they all apply in context and use it to dribble your way through. . .Did the words end or did you not check into your arabic "dictionary"?. . .This is a big fail. . .

Week 4–5
Chemicals produced by the embryo stop the woman's menstrual cycle. Neurogenesis is underway, showing brain activity at about the 6th week.[3] The heart will begin to beat around the same time. Limb buds appear where the arms and legs will grow later. Organogenesis begins. The head represents about one half of the embryo's axial length, and more than half of the embryo's mass. The brain develops into five areas. Tissue formation occurs that develops into the vertebra and some other bones. The heart starts to beat and blood starts to flow.[2]

How does what is written above come close to the nonsense you wrote up there?. . . So the kasauna and lahm means the migration and aggregation of the muscles cells around the developing limb and axial skeleton, to form muscles, tendons and connective tissue? . . . .Where did you get that from?. . .

By the way in which stage of development of the islamic model are the brians, eyes, heart, kidneys and Instruments formed?. . .it talks about formation of bones, what about these other vital organs?. . .At what stage are they formed?. . .

tbaba12345: and We made that lump into bones (ᶜidhaam)

From the mudghah stage, ᶜidhaam are created, this is the next stage. The word ᶜidhaam in the Arabic language means bone, and is specifically applied to the bones of the hands and feet, or of the arms and legs of an animal, “upon which is the flesh”. (An Arabic-English Lexicon. Librairie Du Liban. 1968. Vol. 5, page 2087.)


SCIENTIFIC INTERPRETATION

The ᶜidhaam stage pertains to the development of the axial and limb skeleton, occurring at around the 5th week. Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma explain:

The origin of mesenchymal cells forming the skeletal tissues varies in different regions of the body. Mesenchymal cells forming the axial skeleton arise from the mesodermal somites, whereas the bones of the appendicular skeleton are derived from the somatopleuric mesenchyme of the lateral plate mesoderm. After reaching theirdestination the mesenchymal cells condense and form models of bones. The subsequent differentiation of mesenchymal cells into chondroblasts or osteoblasts is genetically controlled. (Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 20.)

‘Limb bones’ is the specified meaning of the word ᶜidhaam, and therefore can refer to the development of the limb buds which give rise to the development of the limbs and the appendicular skeleton.
Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma elaborate on the formation of the limb and appendicular skeleton:

The appendicular skeleton consists of limb girdles and the bones of the limbs. The bones of the appendicular skeleton develop from mesenchymal condensations which become cartilaginous models. (The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 147.)

Summary:

The ᶜidhaam stage: the formation of the axial, limb and appendicular skeleton.

Only that in humans bones are not formed at that stage, limb buds which are mostly made up of cartilage is what is formed not bones. . .

^My first attempt to get the meaning of the shifting of the earth that you brought up:: led me to isostacy but after some study of the word meaning: i think it is unrelated::

a better translation is:

And He has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it shift with you, and [made] rivers and roads, that you may be guided

And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shift with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

The mountains are firmly fixed because of the roots (awtaad):: and that stabilises them and prevents them from shifting from their position... It is simple really>>>

It does not refer to the earth shaking because that will be called 'Zalzalaa': The more certain meaning i think is the movement of the mountain:

It has a simple meaning::

tbaba12345: Mis conception:

A common misconception, usually made by non-Arabists, is that this verse can be literally translated as “and We made that lump into bones”. From this, they conclude that this verse is unscientific because a lump of flesh cannot turn into a mass of bones. However, this is based upon a crude understanding of Arabic grammar and the Qur’an’s eloquence.

This verse, from a grammatical perspective, has the meanings of: “and We made of/from/out of the lump, bones”.

This is why the Indian Islamic scholar Yusuf Ali translates this verse as “then we made out of that lump bones”; M. H. Shakir translates it as “then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones”; and the British scholar of Arabic and Islamic studies A. J. Arberry, in his translation of the Qur’an which is still used by academics today, translates this verse as “then We created of the tissue bones”.

NOT REAL BONES?

Another proposition from commentators is that at this stage there are no real bones. It is argued that the apparent bones are mere cartilage as ossification is incomplete and, as such, the Qur’an must therefore be inaccurate. They further assert that the Arabic term for cartilage, ghurdoof should have been used instead of ᶜidhaam. Although a valid contention, it is misplaced. The Arabic word for cartilage refers to a type of cartilage that is not a precursor to bones, but rather remains as flexible connective tissue, as Lane’s Arabic-English Lexicon states:

any soft bone, such as is, or may be eaten and [i.e. the soft or cartilaginous, part,] the firm part that is harder than flesh and softer than bone, of the nose

Conversely, the word ᶜidhaam encompasses the cartilaginous form of the bones as the skeletal framework is put in place. Furthermore, the use of the word ᶜidhaam is more accurate because it also carries the meaning of “bone, but properly applied to the bones of the hands and feet, or of the arms and legs, of an animal, upon which is the flesh.

Perfect islamic revisionism. . .Of course "commentators" will always revise it and make it appear in line with new knowledge, if the scientific knowledge changes the same "commentators" will come and revise it again. . .Classic fraud used by all religions. . .At that level of development bones are NOT formed only cartilage. . .The arabic word for cartilage is not idhaam, it is obvious that a play on words has failed you here. . .How idhaam comes to encompasses the cartilaginous form of bones as the skeletal framework is put in place is your own fraudulent revisionism. . .The koran says bone and so it is. . .Bones not your fraudulent play on words. . . cartilage is NOT a precursor of bones. . .The cartilage later develops into bones. So another fail. . .

tbaba12345: ^My first attempt to get the meaning of the shifting of the earth that you brought up:: led me to isostacy but after some study of the word meaning: i think it is unrelated::

a better translation is:

And He has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it shift with you, and [made] rivers and roads, that you may be guided

And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shift with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

The mountains are firmly fixed because of the roots (awtaad):: and that stabilises them and prevents them from shifting from their position... It is simple really>>>

It does not refer to the earth shaking because that will be called 'Zalzalaa': The more certain meaning i think is the movement of the mountain:

It has a simple meaning::

First it was isostocy (Hamza Tzortzis, your famous apologist tries to use it as evidence to show that the mountains stop the earth from shaking), then another rendering of the verse that was a fail, now total revisionism to dribble your way through. . .Maybe you know arabic more than the scholars that translated it to english. . . . . .

And before I forgot your claim about the koran as the only book that talks about mountain having deep roots is false. . The bible in the book of Jonah 2:6 says "to the roots of the mountains, I sank down the earth beneath barred me in for ever But you LORD my God brought me out from the pit

walks in and run out

[flash= 400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msOlpj886H4[/flash]

mazaje:

Clothed the bones with flesh . . . In what stage in the human embryology are bones clothed with flesh. . .It seem a play on words has failed you here, i expected you to give me a word and provide a litany of different words as you always do and tell me that they all apply in context and use it to dribble your way through. . .Did the words end or did you not check into your arabic "dictionary"?. . .This is a big fail. . .

Week 4–5
Chemicals produced by the embryo stop the woman's menstrual cycle. Neurogenesis is underway, showing brain activity at about the 6th week.[3] The heart will begin to beat around the same time. Limb buds appear where the arms and legs will grow later. Organogenesis begins. The head represents about one half of the embryo's axial length, and more than half of the embryo's mass. The brain develops into five areas. Tissue formation occurs that develops into the vertebra and some other bones. The heart starts to beat and blood starts to flow.[2]

How does what is written above come close to the nonsense you wrote up there?. . . So the kasauna and lahm means the migration and aggregation of the muscles cells around the developing limb and axial skeleton, to form muscles, tendons and connective tissue? . . . .Where did you get that from?. . .

Haha!!! i was just a bit busy:: wanted to round off::

I will make it clearer now:

We clothed (kausana) the bones with flesh (lahm)

The word kasauna means: to clothe, to dress, to garb and to attire. It also carries the meanings of: to hang, to drape, to face, to line and to case. Further interpretations of the word include: to encase, to cover, to put, to slip and to give the appearance of and make look like.The word lahm means flesh, meat, or a piece of flesh or meat. (An Arabic-English Lexicon. Librairie Du Liban. 1968. Vol. 7, page 2492.)

The word kasauna denotes the migration and aggregation of the myoblasts: which organise into dorsal and ventral muscles muscle masses surrounding the developing skeleton. These physiological developments are illustrated by the meanings kasauna carries, such as: to clothe, to dress, to encase and to cover. The word lahm is not just limited to the limb muscles but also applies to the muscles masses surrounding the axial skeleton.

Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma explain the covering of the limb skeleton:

The limb muscles differentiate from myoblasts in the proximal part of the limb bud, and soon receive their innervations from the ventral rami of the spinal nerves. The myoblasts then migrate distally and soon become organized into a dorsal and ventral muscles mass surrounding the developing skeleton, carrying their innervations with them. (Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 24.)

That is exactly what i mean:

John Allan and Beverley Kramer confirm

Soon after the cartilaginous models of the bones have been established, the myogenic cells, which have now become myoblasts, aggregate to form muscle masses on the ventral and dorsal aspects of the limbs. These muscle masses, the relevant compartments, form the flexors and extensors of the joints. Rotator muscles are also formed so that flexors and pronators are related and extensors and supinators are related. (The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 148.)

The process of muscular formation is not just limited to the limbs. Once the skeletal framework is in place, muscles start to form around the developing skeleton.

The critics

Critics of the quranic description of the developing human embryo maintain that the word lahm (flesh) is not the most accurate word to use and the word adlat (muscle) is more appropriate. This approach is insubstantial because the word lahm is far more comprehensive word as it includes muscle and other aspects of flesh such as tendons and connective tissue in its meaning, all of which are involved at this stage.

John Allan and Beverley Kramer explain:

Ultimately, the muscles and tendons become attached to the bony structures so that they can produce their actions across the joints. (The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 148.)

This statement proves the imposition against lahm to be ineffective. Simply specifying ‘muscle’ would not be comprehensive enough to describe what occurs at this stage.

Conclusion:

We clothed (kausana) the bones with flesh (lahm)

The kasauna and lahm (the key words in this stage): the migration and aggregation of the muscles cells around the developing limb and axial skeleton, to form muscles, tendons and connective tissue.

Hamza seems to defeat all the atheists, he has faced in debates: i wonder why??

The translation used up there are from scholars not me:: the difference is interpretation....

I watched that video a while back and i can't see any owning::

Hamza is not a scholar,

The worst one can say about any physical phenomenon in the Quran is that it is ambiguous, not inaccurate::

tbaba12345:

Haha!!! i was just a bit busy:: wanted to round off::

I will make it clearer now:

We clothed (kausana) the bones with flesh (lahm)

The word kasauna means: to clothe, to dress, to garb and to attire. It also carries the meanings of: to hang, to drape, to face, to line and to case. Further interpretations of the word include: to encase, to cover, to put, to slip and to give the appearance of and make look like.The word lahm means flesh, meat, or a piece of flesh or meat. (An Arabic-English Lexicon. Librairie Du Liban. 1968. Vol. 7, page 2492.)

Another fraudulent attempt. . .Just one arabic word with 9 VERY different meaning. . .All meaning the same thing. . .When will you guys stop this joke and dirty tricks?. . .Lahm means meat, flesh, piece of meat or peace of flesh?. . .

The word kasauna denotes the migration and aggregation of the myoblasts: which organise into dorsal and ventral muscles muscle masses surrounding the developing skeleton. These physiological developments are illustrated by the meanings kasauna carries, such as: to clothe, to dress, to encase and to cover. The word lahm is not just limited to the limb muscles but also applies to the muscles masses surrounding the axial skeleton.

From to dress, to grab, to attire, to drape, to face, to line,to case now to MIGRATE?. . . . The word kasauna does NOT denote the migration and the aggergation of myoblast because no such word exist in the koran. . .

Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma explain the covering of the limb skeleton:

The limb muscles differentiate from myoblasts in the proximal part of the limb bud, and soon receive their innervations from the ventral rami of the spinal nerves. The myoblasts then migrate distally and soon become organized into a dorsal and ventral muscles mass surrounding the developing skeleton, carrying their innervations with them. (Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 24.)

That is exactly what i mean:

What has the above got to do with anything written in the koran . . . .

John Allan and Beverley Kramer confirm

Soon after the cartilaginous models of the bones have been established, the myogenic cells, which have now become myoblasts, aggregate to form muscle masses on the ventral and dorsal aspects of the limbs. These muscle masses, the relevant compartments, form the flexors and extensors of the joints. Rotator muscles are also formed so that flexors and pronators are related and extensors and supinators are related. (The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 148.)

The process of muscular formation is not just limited to the limbs. Once the skeletal framework is in place, muscles start to form around the developing skeleton.

Only that in human embryology at the stage bones are not formed as the koran says but cartilage and the development is at the same time with other organs. . .

The critics

Critics of the quranic description of the developing human embryo maintain that the word lahm (flesh) is not the most accurate word to use and the word adlat (muscle) is more appropriate. This approach is insubstantial because the word lahm is far more comprehensive word as it includes muscle and other aspects of flesh such as tendons and connective tissue in its meaning, all of which are involved at this stage.

Now lahm does not mean peices of meat, pieces of flesh, meat, or flesh but just flesh, eh?. . . suddenly lahm now includes muscles in its meaning when the arabic word for muscles exist differently. . .Can you see how fraudulent you are. . .I am loving this joke. . . . . .

John Allan and Beverley Kramer explain:

Ultimately, the muscles and tendons become attached to the bony structures so that they can produce their actions across the joints. (The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 148.)

This statement proves the imposition against lahm to be ineffective. Simply specifying ‘muscle’ would not be comprehensive enough to describe what occurs at this stage.

How can simply specifying musle be comprehensive, it complertely destroys your myth of embrology doesn;t it. . Its better to just say that lahm aso includes muscles so that the myth can hold ground. . . . . .Remember not long ago you said that "There r muslims that try to apply every statement in the Quran and apply pseudo-science to it, even when they are ambiguous". . .You my friend are a PERFECT example. . .

Conclusion:

We clothed (kausana) the bones with flesh (lahm)

The kasauna and lahm (the key words in this stage): the migration and aggregation of the muscles cells around the developing limb and axial skeleton, to form muscles, tendons and connective tissue.

Pls read the final statement and compare it to the nonsense you wrote above. . .By the way at that level of embryology bones are not even formed yet but cartilage. . .And the all form together simultaneously not one after the other as the koran says. . .try as you may but you can not force 7th centuary primitive science with modern science. . .

tbaba12345: Hamza seems to defeat all the atheists, he has faced in debates: i wonder why??

Really? was he the guy or his friend that said that religion brought clothing to the Irish and that Islam brought peace to Europe and the world?. . . . . Interesting. . .He is surely "defeating" the atheist if thats him. . .

The translation used up there are from scholars not me:: the difference is interpretation....

Revisionist translation, no?. . .From shaking to tumbling to shifting with you?. . .How do mountains shift with people?. . .Explain pls. . .This is what you said. . .

And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shift with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

The mountains are firmly fixed because of the roots (awtaad):: and that stabilises them and prevents them from shifting from their position... It is simple really

It is not simple because it says "least it shifts with you" NOT "shift from its position" as you wrongly said. . .That last part of the sentence is your own making. . . How does a mountain shift with any body. . .Pls explain. . .You can only try hard and keep failing. . It only makes sense when you look at it in the context of mountains as pegs to stop the earth from shaking. . .

I watched that video a while back and i can't see any owning::

Hamza is not a scholar,

Really, seems we watched different videos then. . .He is an apologist that throws anything to the walls to find what ever might stick. . .Just like you are doing here. . .

The worst one can say about any physical phenomenon in the Quran is that it is ambiguous, not inaccurate::

How can it be inaccurate when it is the word of Allah, after all the bible is also infallible and contains no error. . . . . .

^ lol:

He still won the debate and some of the points; you try to laugh off are valid:::

Different translators use different words to transmit their messages::

There is a lot of pseudo-science by muslims on the internet but the one on embryology is right on all points it talks about::

I have an early rise tomorrow::: I would respond to all your comments tomorrow::

ciao::

tbaba12345: ^ lol:

He still won the debate and some of the points; you try to laugh off are valid:::

Sure how won't he win the debate?. . .Yeah religion brought clothing to the Irish and Islam brought peace to the Europe and the entire world like he said. .But isn't it ironic that the greatest cause of strife and war today is islamic terrorism?. . .

Different translators use different words to transmit their messages::

In that case it becomes the different opinion and interpretation of the translators. . .What then is the difference between the internal and external revelation you talked about?. . .They are all the same, any body can interpret or revise any chapter or verse based on his understanding of the way things are regardless of the original context. . .I thought muslims claim that innovation is a sin and Allah has swore to protect his word?. . .

There is a lot of pseudo-science by muslims on the internet but the one on embryology is right on all points it talks about::

There is a lot of pseudo-science done by you here was well. . .The muslim claim on embrology is NOT true and has nothing to do with modern embryology. . .It is ONLY a fraudulent play on words and nothing else. . .I can also apply this same trick you are using on the Galen stages and come up with the same conclusion or make it look very similar with modern embryology. . .All I need to do is define the Greek word osphus as
a. Hanging/suspended or clinging
b. Suckling blood
c. Leech/worm like substance
d. Blood-clot

For example, then make sure I use all the very different meaning of the word in one context, apply them to help me dribble my way through and at the end make sure that it agrees with the modern embryology. . .Willam Craig did the same to Hamza and showed him how nonsensical and fraudulent it is. . .

I have an early rise tomorrow::: I would respond to all your comments tomorrow::

ciao::

mazaje:
Sure how won't he win the debate?. . .Yeah religion brought clothing to the Irish and Islam brought peace to the Europe and the entire world like he said. .But isn't it ironic that the greatest cause of strife and war today is islamic terrorism?. . .

He never said Islam brought peace to europe: Adnan made references to the telling contributions of the Islamic civilisation to the european: And that is a fact: No one denies that.

In that case it becomes the different opinion and interpretation of the translators. . .What then is the difference between the internal and external revelation you talked about?. . .They are all the same, any body can interpret or revise any chapter or verse based on his understanding of the way things are regardless of the original context. . .I thought muslims claim that innovation is a sin and Allah has swore to protect his word?. . .

Olodo: the word is protected in the Arabic language: Tamida the word used is this case could mean to shake or sway: Sometimes the english language is insufficient to translate a word in the Quran and we result to sentences to capture the full meaning: Wrting a translation does not give you the chance to do that: so you select a word that captures the meaning best based on your understanding and vocabulary,

The Quran is only the Quran in the Arabic Languagr

here is a lot of pseudo-science done by you here was well. . .The muslim claim on embrology is NOT true and has nothing to do with modern embryology. . .It is ONLY a fraudulent play on words and nothing else. . .I can also apply this same trick you are using on the Galen stages and come up with the same conclusion or make it look very similar with modern embryology. . .All I need to do is define the Greek word osphus as
a. Hanging/suspended or clinging
b. Suckling blood
c. Leech/worm like substance
d. Blood-clot

For example, then make sure I use all the very different meaning of the word in one context, apply them to help me dribble my way through and at the end make sure that it agrees with the modern embryology. . .Willam Craig did the same to Hamza and showed him how nonsensical and fraudulent it is. . .

Alaqa does mean all of that: If i favour one meaning over the other then id be dishonest

The miracle nature is the fact that one word can capture things happening simultaneously in the development of the embryo at the same time; Even during the linguistic analysis of the quran in many areas: one word can capture different ideas: a translator can only capture one at a time:

All of the meanings here are straightforward by the way::

The embry clings to the womb, suckles blood and looks worm-like

Where is the dribbling there??