Are you talking about the education levels of Nigerians as a whole? I.e., all Nigerians on earth aggregated together?

Or just those in the UK? Versus other Africans in the UK, Caribbeans in the UK?

I don't know much about the stats for those populations in the UK. But I have seen the #s for Nigeria as a country versus other African countries. And they didn't look good.

Which suggests that Nigerians on average aren't very educated/literate relative to at least certain other African countries, population of black folk in the USA, and Caribbean blacks.

bittyend:

I disagree with the bolded part. Most of the Nigerians in the UK are from the class I bolded in your post - and their children are well educated over here. I guess Nigerians in America are different from the ones over here.

Maybe someone should do a study on the Nigerians communities in the United Kingdom, compared with the Nigerian communities in the United States. I wonder what are the differences, as well as the similarities between the two communities.

India has the same exact issue actually...their average performance (aggregated over all Indians) is fairly low. But they have a crapload of talent abroad.

It might seem like a contradiction, but it isn't...you are looking at two different populations. So you cannot use one to talk about the abilities of the other..

ekt_bear: fstranger: So you are saying that the admissions standards of Ife/Ibadan/etc were low in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, and thus the population of those who got in wasn't at a high percentile?

The point is that there were no standards in the most rigorous sense of it.

So then what percentile would you put them at relative to the Nigerian population?

How am I supposed to know that? Like I said, the best among us then, after completing their HSC, take up govt/clerical jobs, apprenticeships or teaching jobs in their villages. Only few had the presence of mind to further. And why would they? They were making good money and living large as government employees. Only the unemployed and less talented deemed it necessary to further their education. Names like Amos Tutola, Wole Soyinka, Ooni, Rev. I. O. Ransome Kuti etc come to mind. [s]The rich, and to some extent, the exposed, go outside of the country for quality education[/s]. There were no standardized test besides the rote memorization required to obtain your certificate.

Clearly they are above 50%. How much higher would you ballpark it at?

You are free to believe what you want to believe. The truth is that we just dont know.

OK, let's address this 50th percentile issue, since it is the most obvious part.

Clearly those who gained admission to Ife/Ibadan/etc, at a minimum they spoke English. Could read and write. Can do some math. Maybe know some Latin. Could at least complete a high school education. Could take certain exams.

Call this population group X.

Call Nigerians as a whole Y.

Do you think that the average intelligence level of group X is:

a) below the average
b) at the average
c) above the average

of the intelligence level of group Y?

Or are you one of those people who believes that everyone is of the same intelligence level or something? That nobody is smarter/dumber than the other?

Good stuff... Proud to be Nigerian!

I sense a nature vs. nurture argument is brewing on the horizon. That train is never late.

In the absence of real and credible data, a lot of our opinions here will be subjective and anecdotal.

If your parents attended Ife/UI/UNN like ekt_bear and your family, friends acquitances and what have you are from that group of fairly educated migrants, then you'll probably agree with him.

On the other hand, if you are from an atapata-dide, ara oke, community-funded education background like me,(maybe Fstranger too j/k ) If you travelled to America on borrowed funds, if you managed to escape Nigerian hardship using ori-olori papers, and most of your friends are like you and they drove night cab to pay for college, then you might disagree with the "majority were elite in Nigeria argument"

So I'll repeat, in the absence of good data, we can't know for sure.

But what's the point though? These peopple, regardless of their Nigerian background, surmounted some incredible odds; language, culture, racism, colorism, lack of social network to get ahead in a foreign country. That to me is the important message here.

BTW, I don't believe Indian/Asian migrants leave their country less educated or less "elite" than African migrants, well, until I see credible data proving that.

ekt_bear: Or are you one of those people who believes that everyone is of the same intelligence level or something? That nobody is smarter/dumber than the other?

To a great extent. That is why Ben Carson could go from the inner cities of Detroit to becoming one of the the most respected and certainly the most experienced neurosurgeon around, despite his weak academic qualifications ( At least, his SAT scores were not of Yale's standard). Same reason why very well educated Harvard grads get fired from jobs for incompetence. It all the depends on how you use the opportunities you had/have.

Nebeuwa: I think there could possibly be an age disparity in the types of responses in this thread.

Those of us who were born in the 80s; many of our parents were able to get a college degree during the late 70s and early 80s. I cannot say the same for those who were born in the 60s or 70s whose parents were "peasants." I really hate that term by the way.

Who did you think gave rise to your parents if you were born in the 80s? Few individuals have given a scenario that insinuates offspring of peasant famers may not achieve education beyond farming. This is simply not the case with Nigerian society

strangerf:
How am I supposed to know that? Like I said, the best among us then, after completing their HSC, take up govt/clerical jobs, apprenticeships or teaching jobs in their villages. Only few had the presence of mind to further. And why would they? They were making good money and living large as government employees. Only the unemployed and less talented deemed it necessary to further their education. Names like Amos Tutola, Wole Soyinka, Ooni, Rev. I. O. Ransome Kuti etc come to mind. [s]The rich, and to some extent, the exposed, go outside of the country for quality education[/s]. There were no standardized test besides the rote memorization required to obtain your certificate.

When? Ok, I made certain assumptions about your age. Just to be clear, I'm mostly focusing on people who were finishing high school in the 60s and 70s, not before that.

Clearly by then, most people saw that a university education is desirable? The best didn't aspire only for teaching jobs in their villages?

Kilode?!:
In the absence of real and credible data, a lot of our opinions here will be subjective and anecdotal.

If your parents attended Ife/UI/UNN like ekt_bear and your family, friends acquitances and what have you are from that group of fairly educated migrants, then you'll probably agree with him.

On the other hand, if you are from an atapata-dide, ara oke, community-funded education background like me,(maybe Fstranger too j/k ) If you travelled to America on borrowed funds, if you managed to escape Nigerian hardship using ori-olori papers, and most of your friends are like you and they drove night cab to pay for college, then you might disagree with the "majority were elite in Nigeria argument"

So I'll repeat, in the absence of good data, we can't know for sure.

But what's the point though? These peopple, regardless of their Nigerian background, surmounted some incredible odds; language, culture, racism, colorism, lack of social network to get ahead in a foreign country. That to me is the important message here.

BTW, I don't believe Indian/Asian migrants leave their country less educated or less "elite" than African migrants, well, until I see credible data proving that.

What can I do without Kilode? lol.

Always coming to my rescue. Thanks brother.

strangerf:

To a great extent. That is why Ben Carson could go from the inner cities of Detroit to becoming one of the the most respected and certainly the most experienced neurosurgeon around, despite his weak academic qualifications ( At least, his SAT scores were not of Yale's standard). Same reason why very well educated Harvard grads get fired from jobs for incompetence. It all the depends on how you use the opportunities you had/have.

Fair enough. Then we just are making different assumptions about the way the world works.

I don't believe that everyone is equally intelligent any more than I believe everyone is equally tall, weighs the same, has the same wingspan, etc.

Some are taller/skinnier/stronger/can jump higher than others can.

Same with intelligence.

Anyway, given that we are making different assumptions about how the world works, then there isn't really much further to discuss.

Nebeuwa:

Maybe someone should do a study on the Nigerians communities in the United Kingdom, compared with the Nigerian communities in the United States. I wonder what are the differences, as well as the similarities between the two communities.

I'll say that's like comparing apple to oranges. United States is more liberal, probably because of the civil rights, but the United Kingdom is a different ball game entirely. Institutionalised racism stares you in the face out here everyday - but most people can't really complain because of the welfare system. That's why I laugh when I see Nigerians in UK on NL spew delusional statements like :"most Nigerians in the UK are professionals."

The truth is that more than 70% of Nigerians in the UK fall in low class, wage range i.e most live from hand to mouth to survive. Oxbridge (Oxford and Cambridge Universities) hardly accept black students. This is the Queen's country, all negroes need to accept their role - or go back to Africa, which is just 6hrs away by the way.

The UK is a different ball game compared to America.

ekt_bear:

How did they get visa to the UK?

I'm kind of surprised.

Hrm, but perhaps I shouldn't be.

So if what you are saying is true, then it is fairly unlikely for Nigerians to be the most educated in the UK..

Nigerians are not the most educated group in the UK, but if GCSE test scores are anything to go by they're not that much different from Nigerians in America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nigerian#Education

shymmex:

I'll say that's like comparing apple to oranges. United States is more liberal, probably because of the civil rights, but the United Kingdom is a different ball game entirely. Institutionalised racism stares you in the face out here everyday - but most people can't really complain because of the welfare system. That's why I laugh when I see Nigerians in UK on NL spew delusional statements like :"most Nigerians in the UK are professional."

The truth is that more than 70% of Nigerians in the UK fall in low class, wage range i.e most live from hand to mouth to survive. Oxbridge (Oxford and Cambridge Universities) hardly accept black students. This is the Queen's country, all negroes need to accept their role - or go back to Africa, which is just 6hrs away by the way.

The UK is a different ball game compared to America.

I am not very surprised. When I was in the United Kingdom a few years ago, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I could not wait to get back to the United States. However, even though the United States has many problems (e.g. Trayvon Martin controversy), I still would not leave that country for the world.

In the U.S., it is definitely a different ball game. Many Nigerian Americans take the Affirmative Action spots that were set aside for African Americans. There has been complaints at Ivy League universities such as Harvard and UPenn that Nigerians and other Africans are taking spots that were reserved for African Americans who are underrepresented at many universities.

I would go as far to say that many Nigerians in the United States are professionals. You see many Nigerians that are pharmacists, doctors, nurses, lawyers and engineers. It makes me proud in many ways.

Kilode, so you believe that most Nigerians in the US come from below average backgrounds in Nigeria?

You used yourself as an example. I am very sure that you are not the first person in your family to go to university. I am sure that your parents are not illiterates. You completed high school. All of those things by itself puts you well above average, does it not?

Despite the challenges you went through, it isn't accurate to say that you were ever at the bottom of Nigerian society, right?

So even if you believe that you yourself have nothing in common with the elites, you aren't and probably never in your life were the proverbial average Nigerian living on $1/day, right?

But you are correct that we are both just speculating...we don't have hard data on the background of Nigerian immigrants. But if the majority of them did not have impressive credentials before leaving Nigeria (at least relative to the average), I would be highly surprised.

shymmex:

I'll say that's like comparing apple to oranges. United States is more liberal, probably because of the civil rights, but the United Kingdom is a different ball game entirely. Institutionalised racism stares you in the face out here everyday - but most people can't really complain because of the welfare system. That's why I laugh when I see Nigerians in UK on NL spew delusional statements like :"most Nigerians in the UK are professionals."

The truth is that more than 70% of Nigerians in the UK fall in low class, wage range i.e most live from hand to mouth to survive. Oxbridge (Oxford and Cambridge Universities) hardly accept black students. This is the Queen's country, all negroes need to accept their role - or go back to Africa, which is just 6hrs away by the way.

The UK is a different ball game compared to America.

So if they're just there to suck on Britannia's t1ts, why do they have such an attitude?

Look at Sagamite! The guy is always on his high horse on here. Is that some sort of coping mechanism perhaps?

There was one thread where he was ranking universities from the UK and America into tiers and classifying graduates into this and that and getting into arguments about UK Nigerian grads vs. U.S. Nigerian grads and all this stuff. . .And Nigerians don't even get into Cambridge?

Interesting:

Education
British Nigerian pupils are one of the most successful groups academically, with 56% of black Nigerian pupils achieving 5 or more GCSEs at grades A* to C in 2005, compared to 55% of White British children in 2005 and 42% of black Caribbean pupils.[10]

So pretty similar to white British? Well above black Caribbeans.

I'm not sure how to compare this to the US figure.

Do we have like SAT results or something for Nigerians vs. white Americans?

shymmex:
Oxbridge (Oxford and Cambridge Universities) hardly accept black students.

Do you have any numbers, by chance?

The youngest ever master's holder (Anne-Marie Imafidon) from Oxford is of Nigerian heritage.

Also Fidelis Oditah went to Oxford.

I'm sure if I dug around some more I could find others.

Institutionalised racism stares you in the face out here everyday

This is the Queen's country, all negroes need to accept their role - or go back to Africa, which is just 6hrs away by the way

But they made one Victor Adebowale a Baron?

Nebeuwa:

I am not very surprised. When I was in the United Kingdom a few years ago, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I could not wait to get back to the United States. However, even though the United States has many problems (e.g. Trayvon Martin controversy), I still would not leave that country for the world.

In the U.S., it is definitely a different ball game. Many Nigerian Americans take the Affirmative Action spots that were set aside for African Americans. There has been complaints at Ivy League universities such as Harvard and UPenn that Nigerians and other Africans are taking spots that were reserved for African Americans who are underrepresented at many universities.

I would go as far to say that many Nigerians in the United States are professionals. You see many Nigerians that are pharmacists, doctors, nurses, lawyers and engineers. It makes me proud in many ways.

I'm proud of what Nigerians have been able to achieve in America, and most times I draw my inspiration from Nigerians in America and back home. You can't really be inspired by Nigerians out here, even the few professionals are invisible - except Solicitors. You may come across a lot of Nigerian nurses and few Doctors, and Tutors - but that's about it. There are also a lot of first degree holders, and a couple of Journalists you see with Nigerian names here and there but that's where it ends.

The internet braggarts on NL need to get with reality - Nigerians in the UK, especially London are overrated.

Kudos to Nigerians in America and keep the flag flying high..

ekt_bear: Kilode, so you believe that most Nigerians in the US come from below average backgrounds in Nigeria?

You used yourself as an example. I am very sure that you are not the first person in your family to go to university. I am sure that your parents are not illiterates. You completed high school. All of those things by itself puts you well above average, does it not?

By American standards. You can NOT apply the same world view to Nigeria. For starters, just because my "ara-oke: friend, Wahidi, couldn't read an English text doesnt mean he was/is an illiterate in the true sense of it. He could read in his native language and he picked up Arabic language along the way, effortlessly. In addition, he was a shrewd business man, not minding his talent as a great agriculturist and surveyor. Minus his English language handicap which isnt his fault really, he is just like the rest of us. And yes, I have way better credentials than him, but I am not so sure I would consider myself or Kilode above average, if we are to assume, going by your definition, that my "ara-oke" friend, Wahidi, because of his lack of academic credentials, is below average.

Kilode, in short, deal with it. You are one of the elites

You will fool your kids with these stories of how you made it to America through luck and hard work, but then they'll find out that their grandfather is a college graduate in chemistry, speaks excellent English, that their father was the local science fair champion in high school, etc.

On a serious note though, I think the main lesson I've drawn from this personally is a bit more humility. To realize that my accomplishments aren't really due to anything amazing that I personally did, but basically a consequence of certain things I've inherited from my parents and grandparents.

Of course, it sounds a helluva lot sexier to say that your grandfather was an illiterate lion hunter in the Ekiti bush or something

ekt_bear: Interesting:

Do we have like SAT results or something for Nigerians vs. white Americans?

Below White Americans, but way above Black Americans. Saw it a few years ago, dont have access to it right now.

PhysicsQED:

Do you have any numbers, by chance?

The youngest ever master's holder (Anne-Marie Imafidon) from Oxford is of Nigerian heritage.

Also Fidelis Oditah went to Oxford.

I'm sure if I dug around some more I could find others.

That's just one in hundreds, and her case was peculiar because her family has been all over the news for almost a decade now. The Imafidons are very popular out here.


Twenty-one Oxbridge colleges took no black students last year
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/06/oxford-colleges-no-black-students


Oxbridge elitism: how many black and poor students go to Oxford and Cambridge?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/oxbridge-elitism-oxford-cambridge-race-class


Whitewash: TWENTY-ONE Oxbridge colleges took no black students last year
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336414/Oxbridge-whitewash-21-colleges-accept-black-students-academic-year.html#ixzz1rIT03i00

Racism at Oxford!…with Three Real-Life Examples!
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2010/12/09/racism-at-oxford-with-three-real-life-examples/

Fewer black students at Oxford and Cambridge
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8964154/Fewer-black-students-at-Oxford-and-Cambridge.html


Why aren't there more black students at Oxford and Cambridge?
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100067045/why-arent-there-more-black-students-at-oxford-and-cambridge/

I need to run some errands.

Will be back in a few hours...until then

PhysicsQED:
But they made one Victor Adebowale a Baron?

That's just to fill the quota system, and him being a baron has no effect on black people out here. There a couple of black MPs as well, what have they done for the black community out here? Nothing!!

PhysicsQED:

Do you have any numbers, by chance?

The youngest ever master's holder (Anne-Marie Imafidon) from Oxford is of Nigerian heritage.

Also Fidelis Oditah went to Oxford.

I'm sure if I dug around some more I could find others.





But they made one Victor Adebowale a Baron?

Yeah, George Zimmerman has Black friends too.

PhysicsQED:

So if they're just there to suck on Britannia's t1ts, why do they have such an attitude?

Look at Sagamite! The guy is always on his high horse on here. Is that some sort of coping mechanism perhaps?

There was one thread where he was ranking universities from the UK and America into tiers and classifying graduates into this and that and getting into arguments about UK Nigerian grads vs. U.S. Nigerian grads and all this stuff. . .And Nigerians don't even get into Cambridge?

Absolutely!

Kilode?!:
In the absence of real and credible data, a lot of our opinions here will be subjective and anecdotal.

If your parents attended Ife/UI/UNN like ekt_bear and your family, friends acquitances and what have you are from that group of fairly educated migrants, then you'll probably agree with him.

On the other hand, if you are from an atapata-dide, ara oke, community-funded education background like me,(maybe Fstranger too j/k ) If you travelled to America on borrowed funds, if you managed to escape Nigerian hardship using ori-olori papers, and most of your friends are like you and they drove night cab to pay for college, then you might disagree with the "majority were elite in Nigeria argument"

So I'll repeat, in the absence of good data, we can't know for sure.

But what's the point though? These peopple, regardless of their Nigerian background, surmounted some incredible odds; language, culture, racism, colorism, lack of social network to get ahead in a foreign country. That to me is the important message here.

BTW, I don't believe Indian/Asian migrants leave their country less educated or less "elite" than African migrants, well, until I see credible data proving that.

My parents would fit into the "fairly educated migrants" group along with ekt bear's, but I still disagree significantly with him. I think being college educated to at least the bachelor's degree level is meeting the minimum level required to constitute part of an educated middle class, not an intellectual elite or upper class. That America selects for the middle class immigrants to America from certain countries while excluding some of those who aren't doesn't mean that all or most of those who are selected are really the top 1 to 5 percent in terms of inherent intellectual ability or capability from the country. They're just a portion of the educated middle class trying it abroad.

ekt_bear: Kilode, so you believe that most Nigerians in the US come from below average backgrounds in Nigeria?

You used yourself as an example. I am very sure that you are not the first person in your family to go to university. I am sure that your parents are not illiterates. You completed high school. All of those things by itself puts you well above average, does it not?

Despite the challenges you went through, it isn't accurate to say that you were ever at the bottom of Nigerian society, right?

So even if you believe that you yourself have nothing in common with the elites, you aren't and probably never in your life were the proverbial average Nigerian living on $1/day, right?

But you are correct that we are both just speculating...we don't have hard data on the background of Nigerian immigrants. But if the majority of them did not have impressive credentials before leaving Nigeria (at least relative to the average), I would be highly surprised.

The issue I have with the thrust of your argument is your definition of "Nigerian elite and upper middle class"

I don't agree with your assumption that most Nigerian migrants fall in this class at all, at least based on my own experience.

Nigerian elite don't go to America to struggle, heck they don't even stay in america after their education so as to get a Green Card for the most part.

Maybe Middle class kids do, but not elite kids and the Nigerian middle class is a little too fluid to be properly defined here. I'm yet to see a good definition on this thread.