nateevs: Again! Totally wrong. Tippy tappy wins games. Fact! Ask Barca. Ask Borrusia Dortmund.

nateevs: Now this is a different point of argument entirely. "Tippy tappy takes time to master" is completely different from "tippy tappy does not win games". You argument lacks cohesion and constructive balance. You are trying to make two different things look like the same whilst arguing only on one side.

nateevs: Stop mixing two things up. It's harder to master tippy tappy. I quite agree. However, it's folly to attempt to create an argument that suggests that because it is hard to master, it does not win games. In fact, that is the third point you've brought into the argument whilst arguing the same thing.

nateevs: Fa fa fa fowl!!!!. No one plays route one better than Stoke. What have they won? How has it worked out for them?I really love when you glue so much confidence to an empirically-flawed fact and attempt to make it look like a scientifically-backed evidence when in-fact it's all a load of codswallop.

nateevs: "In most cases" . . What percentage? Give facts and figures. Some guys will not roll away and accept flawed logic all because of a hunch.

nateevs: Nope! Hundreds of millions of pounds did. Never exclude that from any argument you make. Millions won the league after 50 years not a perceived "football style"

nateevs: You probably were not watching the league in this season. Go check the stats dude. Tippy tappy won the league. Scored the most goals ever in a single league. Go and review the season. Most especially the games against Aston Villa, Stoke and Wigan. (7-1, 7-0 and 8-1) I hope I got the scores right. We attempted to pass the ball out everytime. No route one dude.

nateevs: You are the one arguing against yourself. No one says other styles don't win games. We are just saying you are wrong saying tippy tappy does not win games. Shey you get the discussu=ion at all?

nateevs: Dude! Get you argument right. Proponents of tippy tappy are not preachers of non-scoring teams. I have no idea where you got this idea that "tippy tappy" = "you won't score" . Who invented this crap?

nateevs: Substance over style. Who says substance always wins over style. Where are the facts? Who's collated them? Arsenal is not the only club in the world playing "tippy tappy", so why are we conveniently excluding the others? Sebi you watched Spain on in 3 consecutive tournaments?

nateevs: Why bring up Arsenal every time tippy tappy is mentioned. It's like saying tippy tappy ain't worth it because Wigan don't win jack. Heck West Ham play route-one, they ain't gon' win sh1t.

nateevs: Tippy tappy wins games! Fact! Ask Barca - 13 trophies in just over 3 years. Beat that.

Ibime:

Funny guy!!

It doesnt matter which style of footie is employed. The only requirement is use your players to their maximum strengths (something AVB failed to grasp), score goals at the opponents end and keep the defence solid. As long as you dont play Wimbledon/Stoke football, every other form of footie is good as long as it wins matches.

1025:

uncle, when u go to a salon to barb ur hair and the barber asks u which style? if you say do it the same way u do paul's, did u first ask if ur skull and that of paul are the same? personally, i hate to hear a team say, we are playing like barcelona. are u barcelona? why can't u play like chelsea, man u or arsenal? be urself as long as u maintain the rules of the games. u don't need to do things to please enemies who speak from both sides of their bodies. we had a winning formula and nobody changes a winning team. something that has been working for us. if we continue been successful with our style of play, nobody will tell these ppl to start playing like us and by so doing doing, u must have activated a brand name for urself and those who want to be as successful as u are.
on a more serious note, barca without plan B proves to be easier to stop these days apart from the refs playing for them. try and watch their last game against servila. 2 goals down before fabregas introduced a basketball skill into football. before fabregas started a bosquet trade mark which reduced servila to 10 men before barca got the space they needed. with the new face of chelsea, the only time i relax while watching chelsea these days is when our opponents are 3 goals down because at 2 goals down, juve had a say. the former chelsea will drain u of any form of water at 1 -0 talk less of 2. like i said, we need more steels in the team than we have now. at a point, barca wanted steel hence they mascherano and song involvements.

BlueDiva: @nateevs

I just read your post so i had to edit.
Ok, good to know you know that quality players is key.

Tippy tappy is fancy and good on tv but will only work with good players.
My own point is that i would rather have good players and play bland football and get the results.

Inversely, Players that've got Character? That have all be ma Point from Day 1 of tis Ish

Ibime:

You are new Chelsea fan. Quaresma barely signed before Scolari was sacked.

Ibime does not subscribe to any style of footie. Don't forget Chelsea was the most flair team in England when ibime became a fan 16 years ago.

Sorry Bro, Quaresma was Brought In by Scolari as an alternative to the Injured Joe Cole who was ruled out for the rest of the season, he stayed to see his Ex Boss get the Sack!

As a matter of Fact, 2004 Been a Fan aint quite 'Soon' U Know -- U're 16Yrs Older cos u had ya Chance, In ya Shoes i'll certainly be Blue from ma Mummy's belly, now thats more like a Centurion Fan

FBS:
son, let me tell something to you ..
individual brilliance + team effort won us the game against spurs so don't go logical here -it was not tippy tappy. drop it. abi se cahill's goal was tippy tappy?

In what tinted Glasses have u been Viewing Our games Lately? If we're not into Tippy tappy tis Season then read to what Fergie has Got here http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/oct/26/sir-alex-ferguson-chelsea-midfield

nateevs:


I dealt with this issue in my first response to FBS citing how Barca goes on up on Arsenal by the quality of players (mainly strikers) that they chose to spend on.

The said, the point of view is open to debate.




There is no football team in history that has dominated an era without playing good football.
Manchester City have a prolific assembly of players, they have a decent manager and they chosen any style yet they can't even dominate in England let alone Europe.

Real Madrid pre-Mourinho and even in the JM era have spent an absolute fortune on players, they've had their fair share of decent managers, they chosen a style but they haven't dominated football either in Spain or in Europe for close to a decade.

PSG alike and there are several other teams I can point to.


My point is, there is only so much you can win/dominate without a clear, defined and sustained method of playing that permeates to the academies. However, this has become very tedious to explain over the years and much so by the advent of oilgarchs who buy clubs and assemble players without so much thought about continuity and sustenance of a football culture. The perennial spending somewhat renders the choice of and persistence with a football culture almost obsolete.

For that reason, there is a condescending attitude towards the advocation of fluid and passing attacking football. The ignominy can be smelled from a mile away and much so by the birth of the word "tippy tappy". It is almost as if proponents of "tippy tappy" are calling for an inferior and less effective method of football that such calls are met by stern and sometimes almost hateful responses.


Using some of your points to defend mine, route-one can only be sustained by constant fund injection. Only a clearly defined positive footballing culture and philosophy, that permeates to the academy can sustain a football club's image and brand for years to come. The era of throwing money at teams is coming to an end. Therefore only the foundation can sustain clubs henceforth. The strength of this foundation is heavily dependent on the method of play chosen now and adhered to.

I am thankful that the club has seen that this is the way forward as shown with the calibre, age and quality of players we now pursue. Instead of the likes of Hazard, Mata, Oscar, KDB, we would have been looking for the next Essiens, Drogbas, Maloudas.

dayokanu: The greatest Tippy tappy team in football history is Rinus Michels Holland won how many trophies?

ZERO

Infact before 2010 the last time tippy tappy won the world cup was in 1970 40yrs earlier.

So if you are prepared to wait every 40yrs stick to it

coogar:

argentina were tippy-tappy in 86.....brazil were tippy-tappy in 94.....brazil's passage to the world cup in 02 was too easy......so i wouldn't count that!

dayokanu:
Brazil in 1994 was one of the most uncreative Brazil ever. They even had to drop their most creative player and captain Rai after their group games

Argentina of 1986 had only one tactic, Route it to Diego and wait for magic

coogar:

brazil of 94 was not creative? the combo of bebeto and romario was not creative? must you lie to score cheap brownie points? are you aware this tippy-tappy ish started in brazil known as "samba" football? i doubt there has ever been a world cup match better than brazil vs usa - alexi lalas vs bebeto/romario! classic......

coogar:

brazil of 94 was not creative? the combo of bebeto and romario was not creative? must you lie to score cheap brownie points? are you aware this tippy-tappy ish started in brazil known as "samba" football? i doubt there has ever been a world cup match better than brazil vs usa - alexi lalas vs bebeto/romario! classic......

dayokanu:

The brazilian Samba and Jogo Bonito were the 1970, 1982 set. Romario and Bebeto were just goal scorers. A team that was using Dunga, Branco as creative midfieders

montelik:
To be honest, the 94 Brazil squad was dull in comparison to the usual Brazil teams. Of course being Brazil even their least creative teams are better than most others.

coogar:
that brazilian team that took holland apart were dull? if they were dull, what would you call the italian team in that competition? matter of fact, there has never been a dull brazilian team until 2002........the 1998 brazilian team was actually better than the 2002 version....

montelik:
Yes and that 98 team was more creative than 94. That is the point, they were dull in comparison to other Brazilian teams.

montelik:

To be honest, the 94 Brazil squad was dull in comparison to the usual Brazil teams. Of course being Brazil even their least creative teams are better than most others.

dayokanu: The greatest Tippy tappy team in football history is Rinus Michels Holland won how many trophies?

ZERO

Infact before 2010 the last time tippy tappy won the world cup was in 1970 40yrs earlier.

So if you are prepared to wait every 40yrs stick to it

dayokanu: In European football people who play realistic football often win more except the recent Spanish inquisition

A team should know when to attack and when to defend when to play nice and when to play ugly

Theres a reason Italy and Germany are the most succesful sides in European football and countries like Holland rarely win a pity is its beginning to affect Germany too.

Chelsea, Inter Milan, Man Utd AC Milan FC Porto all recent winners of the CL knew when to attack and they defended when they needed to

coogar:

so dunga and branco werent creative? if i put the goals scored by brazil in usa 94 here, you would bite your tongue. it was in 98 that dunga became a henchman - he was as creative as feck in 94......bebeto as a supporting striker was just amazing!

coogar:

of course, such is expected but were they duller than their competition in 94? that should be the question! brazil were still the most tippy-tappying team in that tourney and they won!

tippy-tappy win games but it's more hardwork!

nateevs:


I think it is a bit myopic to come to this conclusion.
It's difficult to teach tippy tappy in international teams than it is in clubs for the reason of the sheer amount of hours of training national managers have with their players. It requires teaching basic techniques of the use of the ball and more importantly, the use of space. These techniques are best taught at a very young age. In many cases, many footballers have grown past the stage of changing. There is also the issue disparity in football teaching (heavily dependent on coach employed) at international age-groups levels.

Cruyff took Rinus' principles and introduced it on club level where they had access to hours of training and an age level where the rudiments of total football are best absorbed. The crop of players that adopted this early teachings are the Spaniards you see now.


My point is, it is somewhat folly to judge the result of tippy tappy on a national team level. Unless the playing style has evolved into a national culture, like it has in Spain, it will be difficult to achieve much success consistently in international competitions.

dayokanu:

In 1994 I think Sweden and Romania were very exciting to watch.

That Brazil of 1994 was one of the dullest Brazilian teams to the world cup. The game vs Holland was very dull until Bergkamp and Winter scored

dayokanu:

The only club where tippy tappy has worked largely is still Barcelona. Can you give any other example? The Dortmund you keep referring to is a counterattacking side. Who defend in numbers and break out at speed

If we have just one club out of hundreds where tippy tappy has worked, Would that be considered a successful tactic that can be replicated with guarantees of success?

dayokanu:

In 1994 I think Sweden and Romania were very exciting to watch.

That Brazil of 1994 was one of the dullest Brazilian teams to the world cup. The game vs Holland was very dull until Bergkamp and Winter scored

dayokanu:

The only club where tippy tappy has worked largely is still Barcelona. Can you give any other example? The Dortmund you keep referring to is a counterattacking side. Who defend in numbers and break out at speed

If we have just one club out of hundreds where tippy tappy has worked, Would that be considered a successful tactic that can be replicated with guarantees of success?

coogar:

arsenal's tippy-tappy in 03/04 was as good if not better than barcelona's....they fell apart mainly because of a small squad size not because of quality! tippy-tappy football is the way it should be........it was when clubs with inferior players realised they cannot match the quality of the big boys that negative football became popular! who can tell me the great madrid sides between 98 and 2002 were not tippy-tappy? football of the highest quality with players who would rip teams apart......

A-40:

But how did Brazil get voted as the most entertaining team of USA 94 if they where so dull? Don't tell me u where one of those people spreading the myth that it was actually Nigeria