PEACE to anybody who takes his/her time to examine the Evidence presented.

Please do note that this is not a challenge to any Sect or group. However, do consider this to be an Eye-Opener into something you may never have given much thought about. This of course is intended to be for the "muslim" audience. To the muslims: if you observe anything within the content of the videos which you feel is out of place, please do feel free to throw your question(s) to me. God willing i will attend to them- God willing.

I chose to share this with you guys cos of the recent trend(shi'i Vs Sunni) i have observed on this section. Please watch the videos meticulously. I will appreciate if the following individuals gave their critique on this issue:

1)Tbaba 2)Maclatunji 2) Lagoshia

Others are free to contribute too.


To the Non-muslims:

The videos below are meant to expose the corruption that crept Into ISLAM after the death of Muhammad. This Corrupt teachings are found in Islamic books called Hadith/sunna. Muslims believe these sources came from Muhammad himself. However, what these videos serve is to refute such claim. It is through these sources that medieval Arab story tellers injected their pagan and foolish ideas into the religion preached by muhammad. These books insults Muhammad by making him: a tyrannical leader, a ped.ophile, a murde.rer, a misogynist, a sex maniac, a Hero, a noble man, a merciful person all simultaneously. In fact, these sources portray him as a man with phantasmagorical personality.

As you will see from these videos, the message of these foreign sources contradict the message of the quran;
which is the only book Muhammad ever proclaimed. With the quran alone, the message Muhammad preached becomes clear.

PEACE!!




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Nice post and insightful..

Please MOD(maclatunji), delete the other thread with same title. thanks!!

^i know you do not expect me to watch all your videos... You have already being shown to have no case.

The submitters case is built of quick sand...

Peace to all!

been a few days since i posted this. I thought to give some days grace,perhaps someone would refute d arguments.unfortunately not so.


O^^^^^^^^^k! Mr Tbaba! Where were we again? Ah!....yes!
of course sir, didn't expect you to watch everything before you could at least make an input. If your above statement is all u could input in defense of an argument that seeks to expose d very foundation of what your religion stands for as being false. Then i am afraid such remark is un-scholarly.

mr tbaba, let's discuss d subject thoroghly. U can start by watching d first two videos at least. Thanks.

@brother Usisky

i have engaged you before on the subject of (you) rejecting all hadiths,both those that are authentic and those that are fabricated,and those that agree with the Quran and promote good morals and teachings and those that contradict the Quran.you have made a sect out of rejecting the hadiths in entirety.does that really make sense to you? does hadith sting you by simply reading it in the light of the Quran to know if it is true? if you believe in the Quran so much and you claim to understand it and it is "enough",then why then do you have phobia for hadiths?not like those rejecting the Quran in entirety understand the Quran as it should be understood-you do not!

there is really no need for you to be starting new threads every now and then to bring up the same topic over and over.our views do not change.you can stick to the old threads if you got anything new to say.

here are the two threads where me and you discussed on your Submitter (Quran only) sect started by Rashad Khalifa a few decades ago in america:

https://www.nairaland.com/909544/scriptural-mistranslation-lagoshia-et-al

https://www.nairaland.com/802617/questions-muslims-those-want-know/12#10545321

Peace lagoshia.

as always, i do appreciate your contribution.

as much as i would want to tread along your line of thought(accept some hadiths), i feel fervently disinclined to do so. You know y? Cos i am a rational and deeply reasoning person. I can never accept nor uphold any teaching that slanders God, promotes misogyny, insults the prophet, promotes polytheistic ideologies , promotes hate toward people of different faiths and denies the freedom of religion. Worst of all, these teachings turns people sheepish; they can no longer decide things for themselves except what the clergy decides for them. In doing so, they completely give up the greatest gift given to them by God- a reasoning mind.

mr lagoshia, did u at all watch d vids? Maybe one or two of em atleast? Pls do.

which hadith do u want me to accept?. The much honored "authentic ones"? Have a look at d vids. All d hadiths presented are the so called Sahih(authentic) ones. Is this where u want me to pick and choose my source of salvation from? All these authentic nonesense? It's like asking me to pick a candy from a mixture of candy and deadly poison and eat.

^^^^
Which hadiths do u want me to accept?! Logoshia pls let's reason together. U as a shiah have specific hadiths/traditions u follow, in which ur sunni "counterparts" do not. So which do i follow? For instance: u believe in d so called 12 guided "imams" but the sunni rejects this. Why should i accept this idea?. The shi'is even believe these self appointed imams were infallible. How true mr lagoshia? If the person(prophet) they're supposed to be succeeding himself was fallible(cos he was human), how could these imams be said to be infallibe?

i'd center all the discussion in this thread.

usisky: Peace lagoshia.

as always, i do appreciate your contribution.

as much as i would want to tread along your line of thought(accept some hadiths), i feel fervently disinclined to do so. You know y? Cos i am a rational and deeply reasoning person. I can never accept nor uphold any teaching that slanders God, promotes misogyny, insults the prophet, promotes polytheistic ideologies , promotes hate toward people of different faiths and denies the freedom of religion. Worst of all, these teachings turns people into a sheeps; they can no longer decide things for themselves except what the clergy decides for them. In doing so, they completely give up the greatest gift given to them by God- a reasoning mind.

so now that i accept the authentic hadiths and the ones that promote morality and good teachings in line with the Holy Quran,and rejected the fabricated ones which teach the immoral and bad things you mention above,who is the one reasoning here and who is the one running away from reasoning and "throwing baby out with the bathwater"?

or are you accusing me of following the above things you condemned?

mr lagoshia, did u at all watch d vids? Maybe one or two of em atleast? Pls do.

which hadith do u want me to accept?. The much honored "authentic ones"? Have a look at d vids. All d hadiths presented are the so called Sahih(authentic) ones. Is this where u want me to pick and choose my source of salvation from? All these authentic nonesense? It's like asking me to pick a candy from a mixture of candy and deadly poison and eat.

you honestly need to be Shia!

first of all when you talk to me you sometime mistakee for a Sunni.in the Shia compilations or collections of hadiths,there is not one book that calls itself or is named "sahih" this or that.

when the scholars or compilers of hadith were gathering the hadiths to compile them into book form,they collected everything they come across both the ones agreeable to the Quran and what was common knowledge and agreed upon and what was not agreeable and contradicts the Quran.there is no claim here of "sahih" or authenticity.it is left to you and me and the contemporary scholars to do exhaustive research and study to examine each individual hadith report found in every page of any book.

usisky: ^^^^
Which hadiths do u want me to accept?! Logoshia pls let's reason together. U as a shiah have specific hadiths/traditions u follow, in which ur sunni "counterparts" do not. So which do i follow? For instance: u believe in d so called 12 guided "imams" but the sunni rejects this. Why should i accept this idea?. The shi'is even believe these self appointed imams were infallible. How true mr lagoshia? If the person(prophet) they're supposed to be succeeding himself was fallible(cos he was human), how can these imams be said to be infallibe?

there is not one hadith that a Shia would present or use in Shia-Sunni debate or discussion,that you will not find narrated and accepted by Sunnis.i am telling you here that you will not find one hadith used by a Shia to a Sunni without you finding that hadith in Sunni hadith books.

when we are discussing,there is no need to get excited and heated and use provocative words that are uncalled for,except if you want to become like Vedaxcool who thinks rudeness is a way to score points.when i mentioned Rashad Khalifa,i did not call him names even though i had the urge to.you are describing the 12 Imams (as) from the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and the progeny of Prophet Muhammad (sa) as "so called guided 12 Imams".how do you know they were "so called" and not really guided?

as for the Sunnis' rejection of the belief in imamate,how can they believe in imamate when the very concept of imamate would discredit their belief in caliphate?however,the Sunnis (at least their most eminent scholars) never for once questioned the knowledgeable,character or truthfulness of the Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as).this discussion has nothing to do with Sunnis.leave the Sunnis out of this as our differences are in other threads and discussion that we can settle.we need to settle our own differences here.leave others you do not represent or speak for out of this.

those Imams were not "self-appointed".you are making many statements of accusation here but i am very sure that you have no evidence and no fact to prove your claims or rather assault.by you rejecting the hadith in entirety,there is no claim you are in the position to make and prove especially when it comes to historical matters.you can only be in defense of what you believe.you are not therefore in the position to teach others on matters you have rejected and you call names.

firstly,the Prophet (sa) was no fallible.therefore those he appointed and God ordered him to declare as successors to guide the Muslims and the Muslims must obey and follow and not question,must be the same as the Prophet (sa).if Allah (swt) and the Prophet (sa) must order you to follow or obey someone,then whatever that person orders you and you obey cannot be sinful,wrong,or misguided.otherwise the Prophet (sa) and God have ordered you to follow what goes against their teaching.at least you would agree with me on that.therefore we Shia do not believe like Sunnis do i sinful or fallible caliphs who themselves were in need of others to guide them as we know through hadiths of the state of Umar who exclaimed:"If not for Ali (as) Umar would have perished".

i can prove to you imamate using the Quran.and if you are willing to se the truth and not engage in long futile and unnecessary arguments,i will continue the discussion with you.

from the other thread;

usisky: ^^

I have replied u @ d other thread.

also, the hadiths cited above are in ur so called sahih(authentic) hadiths. U may wish to point at which of them u would want me to follow. If d prophet is supposed to be a good example for us to follow, i find it hard to reconcile that with the hadiths about his character depicted in my op. Can a person who gouged peoples eyes be a good example to follow? Who narrated/Reported all these slanderous hadiths? the enemies of muhammad if i must tell u. They disguised their intentions only to fool gullible people. All d beautiful fable about the prophet in the hadiths can never lure me into accepting it(6:112-113).

i have explained that as a Shia,even our own compilations or books of hadith are not treated as "sahih" this or that.each individual hadith must be examined individually in the light of the Quran and other hadiths and reasoning to determine veracity.those hadiths you mentioned in the other thread are more than likely not to be acceptable even to Sunnis.even the hadiths contained in the books Sunnis call "sahih" this or that,are not all accepted by Sunnis.it is also not new to me as a Shia the fact that many hadiths christian missionaries use to attack the person of the holy Prophet (sa) are to be found in Sunni hadith books (e.g. the so called 'satanic verses' and '72 virgins').this is as a result of men who disbelieved in him having their narrations pass into compilations and even the corrupt Sunni caliphs (especially the ones from banu umayya) of those days employing their power to fabricate hadiths to cover up their shame,guilt and crime.after all,if a caliph does something questionable and he is able to fabricate a hadith to point out that even the Prophet (sa) committed such act,then he is vindicated.also,take for instance the "Ashura fast" that Sunnis perform on the 10th of Muharam.this fast which is marked by Sunnis was instated by the ummayyad caliphate to cover up for what really happened on the 10th of Muharram and giving the day of Ashura other meanings away from the beheading of Imam Hussain (as).but as the Quran says:"falsehood is bound to vanish by its own nature".these fabrications have only given us more work to do.however,we cannot say because those evil men have fabricated things,we should reject both the truth and falsehood about Ashura.they have given us more work to do.we have to examine those hadiths and disprove them.and truly,even with the fabrications,it becomes fun and interesting to expose the lies and contradictions in these hadiths.the fast of Ashura is therefore easily refuted and the meanings Sunnis have being taught to associated with the day of Ashura disspelled.they are only left to accept that the significance of Ashura as also found in their own book have to do with the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (as).

i do not want to drift into discussing the fabricated report itself to fast on the day of Ashura.i can give you a link on the fabricated report and how Shia scholars have reasonably beyond doubt disprove the fabrications and made our belief in truth as narrated on the martyrdom of Imam hussain (as) even more solid:

http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/fastofashura.htm

Peace mr lagosshia!

u know..., i had thought it would be a futile effort replying u.however,i woke up this morning thinking if i did not reply u, u would think u had made a valid point and i had conceded to ur arguments.well, that's far from it.i just felt it was best i go about ma business, while u go about yours.

I try to be as objective a person as i can be. unfortunately,most religious people do not regognize the word objectivity. From the day u argued that the reason God initiated existence, was because of the love He's got for muhammad,i realized u were just another bewitched/indoctrinated religionist. Always knew d shia had their own share of illogical views like their sunni brothers, but never knew it was that extreme.

Anyways, i tried to give u the benefit of doubt, so i visited the website u suggested and perused their articles.thanks for giving me more reasons to hold on to d quran alone. I read an articles entitled:concise treatise on the 12 imams, also; traditions that specify the names of the INFALLIBLE imams. I am sorry to say this mr lagosshia, but if u go back to ur creator with this views/doctrines about Him- u would be debased.I am happy that u can only prove ur immamate myth by citing shia hadith/traditions just like the sunni's do too,but not with support from quran.

to be continued......using mobile phn...sorry

^^^Pardon d little typos.when on PC, i will modify.

....^^^continuation.

A reference was made to the quran as an evidence supporting the imamate myth. Now this is where i come in.never will i witness a deliberate distorsion of the quranic context without saying anything about it. Verse(11:73) was refernced,although acknowledged as abrahams "shiah"(follower/lineage/bloodline etc), but that was only a disguise towards building an illogical argument based on verse(33:33). Mr lagosshia, please explain to me in ur own words what u can fathom of the above verse(33:33),in view of the entire chapter at least.

On a final note: i do have this to say; u made reference to rashad khalifa. I hope u don't think i am like d ignorant sunnis and shi'is who idolize and worship their prophets and saints. No, far from it. Who was rashad khalifa? As far as i am concerned, he is dead and cannot help nor guide me, just as muhammad is dead and cannot help nor guide me. Only God remains alive,and in Him, i put all of my trust. That's why i follow strictly d word of God(quran). Whether u insult rashad or not adds nor takes anything from him,and it doesn't bother me. If he was a good man or bad man, his judgment lies with God. Nothing u or i can do to change that. The only link i have with rashad or muhammad or any true believer is the quran- the word of the omniscient being. He preached the message of God(quran) to the world, he called saudi arabia and all arab nations to return back to God's message and abandon their satanic ways.He was killed just for advocating God alone and rejecting all forms of idols, human or otherwise,which have been promoted/fabricated in the name of following God and d messenger.

Look at the sunni/shiah pathetic situation today. They all worship and idolize muhaammad against his will. They worship people they term saints(mythical imams). Unfortunately, they are not even remotely aware of it. I just wish u guys(sunni/shia) will transmute ur zealousness of defending nonesense into defending God and his message. Sadly,d sin God detests d most i.e idol worship(4:116, 39:65), is d wat the shiah/sunni are guilty of. They turn places of worship(masjid) into places where muhammad is commemorated alongside their other idols. Even when God commands against such(72:18). They have relegated God to the sideline(22:74).

Will correct all typos when on pc.

the arabs of d time muhammad had their own idols(alat,uzzat and mannat). Today, the idols are different- they are in the minds of men.....the sunni/shia cheif idol today is muhammad(against his will). Muhammad preached monotheism and total devotion to God. He preached quran,Follow same. Peace!.


IDOL WORSHIP(QUR'ANIC PERSPECTIVE)
www.masjidtucson.org/submission/monotheism/idolworship.html

it is obvious you have no valid rebuttal to make.now you have gone to personal attack and drifting from the point of your own thread.

the idea here is simple.follow true hadiths and reject wrong/false hadiths.even us who are not "Quran only" do acknowledge there are false and fabricated hadiths.that does not mean we should reject all hadiths in entirety.you have now developed a phobia for literature.and this is what the Quran says:

Holy Quran 49:6
"O ye who believe! if a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done".

so by rejecting hadiths (all of them) are you following the instruction in the above verse?NO!

usisky: Peace mr lagosshia!

I try to be as objective a person as i can be. unfortunately,most religious people do not regognize the word objectivity. From the day u argued that the reason God initiated existence, was because of the love He has for muhammad,i realized u were just another bewitched/indoctrinated religionist. Always knew d shia had their own share of illogical views like their sunni brothers, but never knew it was that extreme.

now you are becoming foolish (and reacting out of being shown truth) to comment on a matter of faith that your heart still remains in the dark away from.your heart has not reached that level of iman nor have you attained knowledge to reach that understanding.for a "Quran only" victim who is deceived that he should be afraid of reading hadiths and should reject it all and build a sect based on that triviality,i am not suprised at your words.

from the onset of creation (according to Quranic verses) when Allah (swt) created mankind to worship Him,the angels told Him that why was He creating those who would disobey Him and spread bloodshed on earth? Allah (swt) said to the angels:"I KNOW WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW".based on that point of man's rebellious state that would be,we thus logically (based on true hadiths) believe that it was the love for Muhammad (sa) and the Ahlul-Bayt (as) of Muhammad (sa) who are exemplary servants and worshippers of Allah (swt) that made Allah (swt) create the expanse of the universe for mankind to worship Him;among whom you find very rebellious and ungrateful creatures.likewise,we read in the Quran where Allah (swt) addresses Muhammad (sa) by telling him that:I DO NOT WANT TO BRING MY PUNISHMENT UPON QURAISH WHEN YOU ARE AMONG THEM.the punishment for Quraish came at Badr after the Prophet's (sa) migration to Makkah.

Anyways, i tried to give u the benefit of doubt, so i visited the website u suggested and perused their articles.thanks for giving me more reasons to hold on to d quran alone. I read an articles entitled:concise treatise on the 12 imams, also; traditions that specify the names of the INFALLIBLE imams. I am sorry to say this mr lagosshia, but u go back to ur creator with this views/doctrines about God- u would be debased.I am happy that u can only prove ur immamite myth by citing shia hadith/traditions just like the sunni's do too,but not with support from quran.

to be continued......using mobile phn...sorry

the imamate is proven from the Quran also.the hadith about the 12 Imams (as)-without mention of their names-is in Sunni hadiths too.the hadiths mentioning their names is in Shia hadiths as naturally would be expected.the followership of one imam after the other from the first,Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as),was a reality and to this day with the 12th Imam (ajtfs) a reality.if you believe Muhammad (sa) was a true prophet of God,then why do you doubt that Muhammad (sa) must have named his successors by name? and if we believe abu bakr,umar and usthman were tyrants,oppressors and usurpers,and the 12 Imams (as) were the rightful successors,why do you doubt the Prophet (sa) knew?if i am not mistaken,there are even Sunni hadiths (secondary ones perhaps) that report the names of the Imams.the hadith in question particularly is the one narrated by Jabir Ibn Abdullah al-Ansari (ra).Jabir (ra) was the oldest living companion of the Prophet (sa).he witnessed the tragedy of Karbala and was a follower of 6 holy imams from the Ahlul-Bayt (as) till his death.

please read these articles about the Quran and divine Imamate.it is getting boring for me to be doing the same thing with everyone over and over by going into details and presenting the same verses on the same topics.please for the sake of God,read the below articles on Quran and Imamate:


"THE QURAN AND IMAMATE":
http://www.followislam.net/quran/quran-imamate.htm


"The Doctrine of Imamate from the Qur'an":
http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/imamate/en/chap10.php

usisky: ^^^Pardon d little typos.when on PC, i will modify.

....^^^continuation.

A reference was made to the quran as an evidence supporting the imamate myth. Now this is where i come in.never will i witness a deliberate distorsion of the quranic context without saying anything about it. Verse(11:73) was refernced,although acknowledged as abrahams "shiah"(follower/lineage/bloodline etc), but that was only a disguise towards building an illogical argument based on verse(33:33). Mr lagosshia, please explain to me in ur own words what u can fathom of the above verse(33:33),in view of the entire chapter at least.

please do not use your confusion to mix things up.at least when you are blind,you should shut your mouth until you have attained vision to describe what things look like.the verses which either prove the concept of divine imamate or the ones which prove the imamate of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) of Prophet Muhammad (sa) are not the ones you have made referenced to.for the verses espousing the doctrine of imamate or proving the imamate of Imam Ali (as) and the 12 Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and progeny of Prophet Muhammad (sa),please read the two links i earlier presented.you should read them yourself because you obviously lack knowledge in matters you now want to argue on.therefore i will not argue with you until you have taking the time to read by yourself and you have anything sincere to talk about.

Quran 11:73 makes reference to the Ahlul-Bayt ("people of the House" ) of Prophet Ibrahim (as).

Quran 33:33 makes reference to the Ahlul-Bayt (as) of Prophet Muhammad (sa).

Quran 37:83 uses the word "Shia" to call Ibrahim (as) in reference to Noah (as) and not in reference to Imam Ali (as) as we refer to ourselves as "Shia of Ali" (meaning "followers or partisans of Ali).this verse is mainly used to cite the permissibility of calling oneself "shia".the word "shia" is neutral.it can be used positively or negatively depending on the context.you can refer to the followers of shaitan as "Shiat Iblis" or "the partisan of Iblis".in the days of the companions of Prophet Muhammad (sa),aside from the "Shia of Ali" whom the Prophet (sa) himself labelled as such for their close association and loyalty to Imam Ali (as),there was also the "Shia of Usthman".

On a final note: i do have this to say; u made reference to rashad khalifa. I hope u don't think i am like d ignorant sunnis and shi'is who idolize and worship their prophets and saints. No, far from it. Who was rashad khalifa? As far as i am concerned, he is dead and cannot help nor guide me, just as muhammad is dead and cannot help nor guide me. Only God remains alive,and in Him, i put all of my trust. That's why i follow strictly d word of God(quran). Whether u insult rashad or not adds nor takes anything from him,and it doesn't bother me. If he was a good man or bad man, his judgment lies with God. Nothing u or i can do to change that. The only link i have with rashad or muhammad or any true believer is the quran- the word of the omniscient being. He preached the message of God(quran) to the world, he called saudi arabia and all arab nations to return back to God's message and abandon their satanic ways.He was killed just for advocating God alone and rejecting all forms of idols, human or otherwise,which have been promoted/fabricated in the name of following God and d messenger.

please do not blaspheme here by liking an attention seeker like rashad khalifa to Prophet Muhammad (sa).they are not the same.hating or denying Prophet Muhammad (sa) can take you out of the fold of Islam.that is not the case with rashad khalifa.to this our day,we still read the Quran,which tells us to send greetings and blessings to the Prophet (sa) and we still do.so do not try to be overly silly by posing logic which has no basis here.you can be logical and draw a parallel between two like beings or things.not between different persons who do not share any commonality.

Look at the sunni/shiah pathetic situation today. They all worship and idolize muhaammad against his will. They worship people they term saints(mythical imams). Unfortunately, they are not even remotely aware of it. I just wish u guys(sunni/shia) will transmute ur zealousness of defending nonesense into defending God and his message. Sadly,d sin God detests d most i.e idol worship(4:116, 39:65), is d wat the shiah/sunni are guilty of. They turn places of worship(masjid) into places where muhammad is commemorated alongside their other idols. Even when God commands against such(72:18). They have relegated God to the sideline(22:74).

i thought the wahhabi are the only ones who use "shirk" (idol worship) as tool to label everyone else and use as political tool to gain credibility.we now have another bid'ah God forsaken sect accusing billions of muslims of "shirk" in his own eyes and definition ofcourse and not in the definition of the Quran or sunnah.ofcourse,those who make takfir (give verdicts of disbelief) on other Muslims,are themselves disbelievers,says Prophet Muhammad (sa).this is an heinous sin when you accuse another Muslim who believes in La Ilaha Illallah Muhammad Rasulullah.

i would like to know how i am committing "idol worship".you have to tell us the idol we worship.mumu!

usisky: Will correct all typos when on pc.

the arabs of d time muhammad had their own idols(alat,uzzat and mannat). Today, the idols are different- they are in the minds of men.....the sunni/shia cheif idol today is muhammad(against his will). Muhammad preached monotheism and total devotion to God. He preached quran,Follow same. Peace!.


IDOL WORSHIP(QUR'ANIC PERSPECTIVE)
www.masjidtucson.org/submission/monotheism/idolworship.html

you have just committed a sin by liking the Prophet (sA) to an idol.may be you should explain to us how he is our "idol".let us see from the Quran if it is as you accuse us.

Peace mr lagosshia.

pardon my style of writing.there's usually some angry udertone to it. Perhaps,dats my own liitle shortcommings. It's just dat i feel bad wen i see a wrong portrayal of God and d messenger. I feel hurt wen i see God being made a joke of. Well well! Wat great exposition u put up lagosshia.as usual i do appreciate. D fact dat u embrace ur shi'ism and defend it at all cost is invaluable. Unlike ur sunni brothers who have no idea where they stand,except disguising under d auspices of "we are simply muslims".some don't even have an idea what they follow is sunni'ism.but u my friend....,is a proud shia. Am cool wit dat.

Since do not have time to continue merrygorounding the same things, i will only answer ur little query. U may review my original op to see why all hadiths have no merit as far as God and salvation is concerned.

Your query:

1)that i have called prophet an idol, and dats blasphemous.

2)that u do not idolize the prophet

wish i had d energy to engage u, but u are devoid of critical thinking and analysis.otherwise, i would've engaged u with barrage of thought provoking arguments.However, i respite for another time.

My answers 2ur queries:

1)i never said the prophet was an idol. I said the shi'i and the sunni made an idol out of the prophet against his will.in other words, u people idolize and worship muhammad without realizing it. Ur aversion to this fact stems from the hadiths u people uphold. I will prove to u that my accusations are dead acurate below.

2)yes! U guys idolize the prophet agaist his will,hence he is ur idol.

i)the very foudation of wat submission(islam) to God means, is represented by the statement called shahadah(bearing witness to the oness of God). This is the foundation of montheism/tawheed. This statement has been repeated many times in d quran, and not a single verse do u find muhammad's name put next to God's.

usisky: Peace mr lagosshia.

pardon my style of writing.there's usually some angry udertone to it. Perhaps,dats my own liitle shortcommings. It's just dat i feel bad wen i see a wrong portrayal of God and d messenger. I feel hurt wen i see God being made a joke of. Well well! Wat great exposition u put up lagosshia.as usual i do appreciate. D fact dat u embrace ur shi'ism and defend it at all cost is invaluable. Unlike ur sunni brothers who have no idea where they stand,except disguising under d auspices of "we are simply muslims".some don't even have an idea what they follow is sunni'ism.but u my friend....,is a proud shia. Am cool wit dat.

Since do not have time to continue merrygorounding the same things, i will only answer ur little query. U may review my original op to see why all hadiths have no merit as far as God and salvation is concerned.

Your query:

1)that i have called prophet an idol, and dats blasphemous.

2)that u do not idolize the prophet

wish i had d energy to engage u, but u are devoid of critical thinking and analysis.otherwise, i would've engaged u with barrage of thought provoking arguments.However, i respite for another time.

My answers 2ur queries:

1)i never said the prophet was an idol. I said the shi'i and the sunni made an idol out of the prophet against his will.in other words, u people idolize and worship muhammad without realizing it. Ur aversion to this fact stems from the hadiths u people uphold. I will prove to u that my accusations are dead acurate below.

2)yes! U guys idolize the prophet agaist his will,hence he is ur idol.

i)the very foudation of wat submission(islam) to God means, is represented by the statement called shahadah(bearing witness to the oness of God). This is the foundation of montheism/tawheed. This statement has been repeated many times in d quran, and not a single verse do u find muhammad's name put next to God's.

from the above million words,i just want you to rpove your accusation.you said we "idolize" the Prophet (sa).how?i do not like arguing for the sake of it.I like meaningful discussions that would take us somewhere.

again,regarding hadiths,it is only an attitude of self-defeat and weakness that would make you fear examining literature texts.even if you find hadiths fabricated and false (quite a number are),that does not mean you do not have to prove they are fabricated.there are hadiths that are authentic and acceptable in the light of the Holy Quran and reasoning and must be accepted and promoted to preserve our history and have backings for our beliefs and the much needed details.otherwise you are digging a grave for yourself.if a time come where all Muslims reject hadiths,many info would be lost.and that would be seen by christian missionaries as a sign of self-defeat or shame and that Muslims are rejecting their past.that should not be the case because we have nothing to hide or be ashamed of.what is fabricated could be examined and proven to be false and un-Islamic and therefore rejected.what is authentic and acceptable should be promoted.simple!

again,you should apply self-criticism even in your mind and question the motive for making a sect by rashad khalifa based on a trivial issue which is ridiculous and annoying that all hadiths should be thrown away.even the texts of idolaters can be examined and we find traces that support tawheed to our benefit.the bible likewise we inspect and find what agrees with Islam.should be also reject every book that is not Quran? Islam promote acquiring knowledge,remember!

^^^Continuation of (i) above.

here are the quranic verses: 2:163, 3:2, 3:18, 3:62, 4:87, 5:73, 6:102, 6:106, 7:158, 9:31, 10:90, 11:14, 13:30, 21:25, 21:87, 40:62, 40:65.

now, those are the complete verses where this statement(shahadah or testimony of faith) is cited. In all the above, not a single on of them do u find God put muhammad's name next to His. However, the shiah/sunni fabricated a version where they have injected the name of muhammad-their idol(against his will anyway).

Is it that God forgot to add muhammad's name next to His? Or didn't muhammad see it fit to add his name?

usisky: Peace mr lagosshia!

u know..., i had thought it would be a futile effort replying u.however,i work up this morning thinking if i did not reply u, u would think i had made a valid point and i had conceded to ur arguments.well, that's far from it.i just felt it was best i go about ma business, while u go about yours.

I try to be as objective a person as i can be. unfortunately,most religious people do not regognize the word objectivity. From the day u argued that the reason God initiated existence, was because of the love He has for muhammad,i realized u were just another bewitched/indoctrinated religionist. Always knew d shia had their own share of illogical views like their sunni brothers, but never knew it was that extreme.

Anyways, i tried to give u the benefit of doubt, so i visited the website u suggested and perused their articles.thanks for giving me more reasons to hold on to d quran alone. I read an articles entitled:concise treatise on the 12 imams, also; traditions that specify the names of the INFALLIBLE imams. [size=18pt]I am sorry to say this mr lagosshia, but u go back to ur creator with this views/doctrines about God- u would be debased[/size].I am happy that u can only prove ur immamite myth by citing shia hadith/traditions just like the sunni's do too,but not with support from quran.

to be continued......using mobile phn...sorry

lol even usisky knows!! man claims Divinely appointed by man? what a great fallacy indeed, no single name of "infalliable" imams can be found in the Qur'an yet they where appointed by Allah to supposedly continue leading the ummah! yet till now, the current imam instead of guiding man ran and hide, what kind thinking do be live by? I tire for their sense, divinely appointed by men individuals, you only become an imam if people decide to take you such! poor people !

^^
it looks like sunnis see Allah (swt) to know who is divinely appointed and chosen.it is not suprising for those who believe in the bid'ah called "TAJSIM" (giving Allah physical body parts) to make stupid and ignorant statements.

I am writing piecemeal cos am on mobile. Pardon me dat.

.......continuation.

verse("3:18", categorically dictates upon us wat the shahadah(profession of faith) should be. It goes like this: "shaheedah allahu, annahu LAELLAHA ELLAHU, wal malaikah,wa ullul ilm".

meaning: "God bears witness that THERE IS NO god EXCEPT HE, so do the ANGELS, and also those with knowledge/intelligence".

Literal meaning: shaheedah allahu(God's shahadah), annahu laellaha ellahu(is Laellaha ellahu), wal malaikah(also of the agels), wa ullul ilm(and those with intelligence/knowledge).

verse(21:25), tells us dat all messengers were inspired to proclaim this simple phrase to the people. But because of ur reverence for muhammad, u neglect this and proclaim a version with ur idol added to it.my question is why? Today u people claim This false version is d magical sentence that transforms a person into a "muslim". How can adding muhammad's name name next to God's reflect ones conviction or surrender or submission to God? Is it not enough one declares God's absoluteness without putting muhammad next to it?

usisky: ^^^Continuation of (i) above.

here are the quranic verses: 2:163, 3:2, 3:18, 3:62, 4:87, 5:73, 6:102, 6:106, 7:158, 9:31, 10:90, 11:14, 13:30, 21:25, 21:87, 40:62, 40:65.

now, those are the complete verses where this statement(shahadah or testimony of faith) is cited. In all the above, not a single on of them do u find God put muhammad's name next to His. However, the shiah/sunni fabricated a version where they have injected the name of muhammad-their idol(against his will anyway).

Is it that God forgot to add muhammad's name next to His? Or didn't muhammad see it fit to add his name?

the testimony (shahada) that Muhammad (sa) is the prophet and messenger of Allah (swt) in the Holy Quran:

Holy Quran 47:2
" And those who believe and do righteous deeds and believe in what has been sent down upon Muhammad - and it is the truth from their Lord - He will remove from them their misdeeds and amend their condition."

Holy Quran 63:1
"When the hypocrites come to you, [O Muhammad], they say, "We testify that you are the Messenger of Allah ." And Allah knows that you are His Messenger, and Allah testifies that the hypocrites are liars".

(note:in the above verse,it is evident that testifying that Muhammad s.a. is the messenger of Allah is not opposed or condemned by Allah s.w.t but was practiced by those becoming Muslims.but in fact those who do so falsely are condemned for hypocrisy).

LagosShia: ^^
it looks like sunnis see Allah (swt) to know who is divinely appointed and chosen.it is not suprising for those who believe in the bid'ah called "TAJSIM" (giving Allah physical body parts) to make stupid and ignorant statements.

lol! playing dumb does not help your case, nowhere in the entire Qur'an, the whole 114 chapters does not even hint to the any Imam, the condition of major fail, If the Qur'an conveyed (off course it did) Allah's words to mankind, then his divine appointments are supposed to be found there, no name, no single name or indirect refrence to this so called divinely appointed Imams, why because it is no more than lies that these people prefer following, I urge u to follow usisky advice

[size=18pt]"I am sorry to say this mr lagosshia, but u go back to ur creator with this views/doctrines about God- u would be debased"[/size]

it makes no common sense to why a so called fundamental to religion is not spoken of in the way the shias and forged hadiths and lies + deciets claim it to be and it os on this lie their last imam whom they claim is suppose to guide mankind, in fact an imam does not exist for any other reason than to guide mankind, ran and hide, neglecting his duty, and making the claims of the Immammah worse than the junk called trinity, if Imams exist to guide the ummah, then the last one is doing a very bad work at it and thereby making the whole establishment of Immamah pointless! who makes this sort of confusion formankind,your guess is as good as mine!

^
whatever,please do not derail this thread.

you created a thread you got slapped in by Zhul-Fiqar on the issue of imamate.stay there :
https://www.nairaland.com/958917/immamah-source-confusion-it-falsehood

^^^Sorry for the intermittent wirte-up.

continuing frm 2(i) above:
since God is d teacher of quran(55:1-2), and d quran contains no contradiction(4:82). We will observe how God exposes those without conviction/trust about God.

Thank God u cited verse(63:1), was just abt doin so wen u did. However, ur rendition, as always is false. The Verse unequivocally tells us dat only hypocrites(munafikuun) declare that muhammad is a "messenger of God". It went on to explain why that is the case. GOD clearly states in the verse that u don't have to declare to Him that muhammad is His messenger. What is d point of telling God what He already knows? Were u d ones who appointed muhammad as rasool(messenger) or God did? God deals with ur heart and not lip service. By following d quran, already suggest u believe muhammad was God's messenger . Why do incessantly repeat it to God if not out "hero-worship".

ii) God commands us never to make distinction amongst His messengers. Why then do u decide to have such a declaration for muhammad and not d other messengers(jesus, moses, abraham, isaac, lot, ishmael, zul kifl, job, noah, jonah, shuaib etc)? I will tell u why...., cos u idolize him, and don't care wat God thinks or commands u to do in the quran.

Here again are the list of verses enjoining true believers from making distinction amongst God's messengers2:136, 2:285, 4:150, 3:84). Obviosly, u do not agree with God.hence the reason u commit shirk(idol worship) by violating the shahadah(chp 3, verse eighteen) and ur insistence of putting muhammad's name next to God's. This wat quran terms as setting up partner besides God. Dis is cos God has got no partner ruling with Him in His dominion. HE is far above dat(23:92, 52:43, 59:23). Please show me just one verse in the quran where u have muhammad's name attached to God's in all the shahadahs, and i will wholeheartedly become a devout "SHIAH".

usisky: ^^^Sorry for the intermittent wirte-up.

continuing frm 2(i) above:
since God is d teacher of quran(55:1-2), and d quran contains no contradiction(4:82). We will observe how God exposes those without conviction/trust about God.

Thank God u cited verse(63:1), was just abt doin so wen u did. However, ur rendition, as always is false. The Verse unequivocally tells us dat only hypocrites(munafikuun) declare that muhammad is a "messenger of God". It went on to explain why that is the case. GOD clearly states in the verse that u don't have to declare to Him that muhammad is His messenger. What is d point of telling God what He already knows? Were u d ones who appointed muhammad as rasool(messenger) or God did? God deals with ur heart and not lip service. By following d quran, already suggest u believe muhammad was God's messenger . Why do incessantly repeat it to God if not out "hero-worship".

ii) God commands us never to make distinction amongst His messengers. Why then do u decide to have such a declaration for muhammad and not d other messengers(jesus, moses, abraham, isaac, lot, ishmael, zul kifl, job, noah, jonah, shuaib etc)? I will tell u why...., cos u idolize him, and don't care wat God thinks or commands u to do in the quran.

Here again are the list of verses enjoining true believers from making distinction amongst God's messengers2:136, 2:285, 4:150, 3:84). Obviosly, u do not agree with God.hence the reason u commit shirk(idol worship) by violating the shahadah(chp 3, verse eighteen) and ur insistence of putting muhammad's name next to God's. This wat quran terms as setting up partner besides God. Dis is cos God has got no partner ruling with Him in His dominion. HE is far above dat(23:92, 52:43, 59:23). Please show me just one verse in the quran where u have muhammad's name attached to God's in all the shahadahs, and i will wholeheartedly become a devout "SHIAH".

my friend you are twisted.i showed you verses of the Quran that commands the Muslim to testify that Muhammad (sa) is the messenger of God.and you are still arguing.obviously as a "Quran only" sect member,you are not pleased with that because you want to bring Prophet Muhammad (sa) to the level of Rashad Khalifa,a nobody.

^^^^

lol the same thread you are fleeing? or zhulfiqar alias lagoshias? Our prayers for you will not cease indeed as like usisky said you going with herectical beliefs like thsese back to you crator will earn you debasement indeed!

vedaxcool: ^^^^

lol the same thread you are fleeing? or zhulfiqar alias lagoshias? Our prayers for you will not cease indeed as like usisky said you going with herectical beliefs like thsese back to you crator will earn you debasement indeed!

oh,i never knew you are "Quran only" sect member?

^^^^^

lol , like usisky said you going with herectical beliefs like thsese back to you crator will earn you debasement indeed!