true2god: My friend i understand at least 95% of JW doctrines and tricks, i knw wat im saying. I have been dealin with dem for so many yrs and on few occasions attended the kingdom hall. Its convenient for JW to condemn the apostolic faith, assembies of God church, CAC, RCCG, deeperlife (even where JW are blatantly lying) but they cant condemn the teachings of the church of the latter-day saints, eckancker, the grail messangers. The reason is that they belong to the same false xtains org, so y condemn dem.

Ok since christ teachings on hell fire is not literal (only according to JW), dnt u tink his teachings on heaven and paradise are not literal as well? Since there is not eternal punishment (according to Jw), dnt u think ther is no eternal presence of the righteaous with God? Is it that u choose is convenient for u?

You lied that we don't believe that Jesus came to save mankind.....you Lied!!!!.....why??....why spread falsehood about the witnesses.......I want you to edit what you wrote and speak the truth..........john 17:3.......

And the bolded is another LIE again.....true2God you are infact the liar and slanderer......

Let me answer your question..::::::

When Christ gave that parable he was not teaching about hell fire(abi ear muff dey ona ears??)...........

Enough accounts have shown that heaven and paradise are real...............all servants of God including abraham have been anticipating eternal life........infact it was why Jesus was sent,to open that way.......Jesus did not come to create your hell fire chamber.......

And don't say that the JW's said there would be no literal eternal torment,instead say the scriptures says so...because it is the scriptures that has told us what the lake of fire means..............

When you say eternal presence with God,what exactly do you mean??......

frosbel:

How are they linked ? This is not an honest response.

I asked you a simple question which seems to have stumped you into silence.

If you are a true teacher or student of the word and think I am a false and deceitful teacher , as you have often stated , the onus is on your to prove otherwise.

Answer my question, don't cower in the face of such a simple task.

my response to ur falsehood will make more sense to u if only u let the world knw ur stance on the composition of man. Is man composed of the spirit, soul and body?

Ok let me help u here, ur ansa is NO, since u dnt want to be pinned on corner. This is not only a false and satanic response frm u (i will otherwise retract my statement if u ansa negetes my assumption) but an attempt to divert the core basis of the discussion on the teaching of Jesus on the 'richman and lazarus'.

Ok Frosbel, frm ur analysis so far, Jesus examples on the story (or allegory as JW falsely put it) was Jesus den lying by saying:
1. Lazarus dies and was carried to abraham's bossom (a place of comfort)
2. The richman died and he cried (even afta his pgysical death)
3. That the richman begged for water afta much suffering
4. That the richman asked Lazarus to be ressurected to mortal life (or physical life) so that he can warn his brothers on earth to change their evil ways so that they dnt face the same fate he is facing.

Frm the points i listed above its vry clear dat u and and our lord Jesus have differing opinions on this topic. And its only wise to align with Jesus and not with u (a false witness).

U can quote encyclopedia to disprove Jesus, dat doesnt meant u r not a LIAR.

ijawkid:

You lied that we don't believe that Jesus came to save mankind.....you Lied!!!!.....why??....why spread falsehood about the witnesses.......I want you to edit what you wrote and speak the truth..........john 17:3.......

And the bolded is another LIE again.....true2God you are infact the liar and slanderer......

Let me answer your question..::::::

When Christ gave that parable he was not teaching about hell fire(abi ear muff dey ona ears??)...........

Enough accounts have shown that heaven and paradise are real...............all servants of God including abraham have been anticipating eternal life........infact it was why Jesus was sent,to open that way.......Jesus did not come to create your hell fire chamber.......

And don't say that the JW's said there would be no literal eternal torment,instead say the scriptures says so...because it is the scriptures that has told us what the lake of fire means..............

When you say eternal presence with God,what exactly do you mean??......

Ok lemme ask u some simple questions.

1. Do u believe that except a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:16) or are u born-again?

2. Do u believe that Jesus is the savior of mankind (and not only 144,000 pple) or the mediator between man and God (and 144000 pple).

3. Do u believe Jesus can forgive all ur sins if u repent.

4. Do u believe Jesus is coming back for his own pple (act 1:

5. Were u baptized in the name of the father (God the almighty), and of the son (Jesus the lamb) and the Holy spirit (the comforter)

If u can honestly ansa this questions i will edit my post (i promise).

true2god: my response to ur falsehood will make more sense to u if only u let the world knw ur stance on the composition of man. Is man composed of the spirit, soul and body?

Ok let me help u here, ur ansa is NO, since u dnt want to be pinned on corner. This is not only a false and satanic response frm u (i will otherwise retract my statement if u ansa negetes my assumption) but an attempt to divert the core basis of the discussion on the teaching of Jesus on the 'richman and lazarus'.

Ok Frosbel, frm ur analysis so far, Jesus examples on the story (or allegory as JW falsely put it) was Jesus den lying by saying:
1. Lazarus dies and was carried to abraham's bossom (a place of comfort)
2. The richman died and he cried (even afta his pgysical death)
3. That the richman begged for water afta much suffering
4. That the richman asked Lazarus to be ressurected to mortal life (or physical life) so that he can warn his brothers on earth to change their evil ways so that they dnt face the same fate he is facing.

Frm the points i listed above its vry clear dat u and and our lord Jesus have differing opinions on this topic. And its only wise to align with Jesus and not with u (a false witness).

U can quote encyclopedia to disprove Jesus, dat doesnt meant u r not a LIAR.

I will not give you the pleasure of diverting this subject. Take the challenge and be a MAN, stop running away.

You have no clue or answer to my question which is why you have responded with a question to my question , this is a rather prideful way of side stepping my question.

Do I not deserve to have my question answered ?

Let me repeat it here , if the wording is difficult for comprehension let me know and I will endeavor to rephrase :

If the dead in Christ are already with Christ, what is the purpose of the resurrection ? Paul says that both the dead in Christ and those who are alive will meet with Jesus and be forever with him at this second coming , not before.

If death is the hope of us Christians, what makes us different from the death cults who kill their members en masse so as to be with their creator in Paradise ?

Is death our hope , or is the resurrection our hope ?


Or do you have no answer to this simple question ? Surely as a teacher or student who has possession of the truth, you should be able to enlighten us ignorant ones , no ?

So if a young believer asks you this simple question, what will you tell him ? nothing ?

I am waiting for your answer, be honest and respond or just admit you have been stumped with this question.

@alexco

why are you always cursing, insulting and yelling when you're asked clear questions?

Jesus was always calmed when answering questions throwned at him, the pharisee on the other hand were violent and abusive when Jesus asked them questions.

On this thread, check your posts and link them with these 2 analogy i wrote.

Btw, been reading from the beginning and your utterances and that of bobby, just and pyguru are just too unchristian-like. You're leading more people to Satan than God with your way of handling issues on this thread.

May God have mercy!

I'm surprised you couldn't lift a finger to defend the charge of sadism you've made in countless posts around here. The simple question for you is: if you believe God would do what Hitler & Co. did, can you still justify your stance against eternal torment on the basis that it contraditcts the nature of a loving God to punish people eternally? In simpler terms, is it loving of God to destroy people one time as punishment?

Are you for real

So destruction is on the same level as 1 trillion years in eternal torment ?

God is loving in that he respects the wishes of MANKIND, in other words, those who aim for life will receive life while those who choose death will get their just deserts. Is this not love ? allowing people to make an informed decision without coercing them either way ?

If you can't defend that, then you need to quit deceiving yourself that you're arguing for a loving God and using that as a cudgel to attack others for presenting God as a sadist. Neither one time destruction nor everlasting punishment shows love. [And btw, it is irrelevant whether one is worse than the other].

Well , if your GOD will torture his creation for endless ages, it cannot be the GOD of the bible , that is plain and scriptural.

But you know what? God has a side that is not about love, as we human beings define it. He is also a God of Justice; a consuming fire.

Indeed God is a consuming fire which goes even further to destroy you logic ,for if a fire is consuming , it consumes to ashes the objects of it's immense heat and burning. God's consuming fire does not linger beyond the destruction of the wicked.

Of course, if you create a false image of God, to suit whatever interest you may have (love, etc), you can't be sure you're still describing the same God. That's the same thing as rejecting Him. If I insist you're a Caucasian female and truly beleive it, do you think I'll receive you as you when you knock on my door and appear as a black man?

Indeed , I reject the false god of sadism and religion.

true2god: Ok lemme ask u some simple questions.

1. Do u believe that except a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:16) or are u born-again?

What does being born again mean??.......

true2god:
2. Do u believe that Jesus is the savior of mankind (and not only 144,000 pple) or the mediator between man and God (and 144000 pple).

This question is quite un-clear.......but I believe Jesus was sent to save mankind,and so he is the saviour of mankind........
I don't understand your question about the 144000....

true2god:

3. Do u believe Jesus can forgive all ur sins if u repent.

Hehehehe........the Father has given him authority so why not..........

And what am I to repent from if I may ask??....

true2god:

4. Do u believe Jesus is coming back for his own pple (act 1:

Yes na........although he does not even know when he's coming to do that...he has to wait on His Father for the go ahead.......

true2god:

5. Were u baptized in the name of the father (God the almighty), and of the son (Jesus the lamb) and the Holy spirit (the comforter)

YES I was........

true2god:

Ok Frosbel, frm ur analysis so far, Jesus examples on the story (or allegory as JW falsely put it) was Jesus den lying by saying:
1. Lazarus dies and was carried to abraham's bossom (a place of comfort)

I even used the scripture to prove to you stiff necked colleagues of mine that that story was indeed a parable.....why don't you call Jesus false or the scriptures false that started all the parables of Jesus with the expression ""there was a man""...........why ona dey do like this...??....true2God why you dey behave like this......

Where is this place of comfort??,,,,,is abrahams bossom now a place where all righteous people go??....and please what did lazarus do that should make him deserve staying in abrahams bossom??.....

true2god:

2. The richman died and he cried (even afta his pgysical death)

Why was he crying and what did he do to deserve any purnishment that should make him cry??........

true2god:

3. That the richman begged for water afta much suffering

Lol.......meaning satan and his cohorts would be begging you(since you would be in heaven) for water to quench there taste.......

true2god:

4. That the richman asked Lazarus to be ressurected to mortal life (or physical life) so that he can warn his brothers on earth to change their evil ways so that they dnt face the same fate he is facing.

What bad did the rich man do and what good did lazarus do??...........


All the questions I've asked is questions I woldnt have asked if this story was a real story and not an allegory.........

ijawkid:

You lied that we don't believe that Jesus came to save mankind.....you Lied!!!!.....why??....why spread falsehood about the witnesses.......I want you to edit what you wrote and speak the truth..........john 17:3.......

And the bolded is another LIE again.....true2God you are infact the liar and slanderer......

Let me answer your question..::::::

When Christ gave that parable he was not teaching about hell fire(abi ear muff dey ona ears??)...........

Enough accounts have shown that heaven and paradise are real...............all servants of God including abraham have been anticipating eternal life........infact it was why Jesus was sent,to open that way.......Jesus did not come to create your hell fire chamber.......

And don't say that the JW's said there would be no literal eternal torment,instead say the scriptures says so...because it is the scriptures that has told us what the lake of fire means..............

When you say eternal presence with God,what exactly do you mean??......

Is Michael the arch angel Jesus
Did Jesus die on a stake or cross
Did Jesus ressurect Wholy in the body which he died
A 'yes or no' answer will suffice.

frosbel:

I will not give you the pleasure of diverting this subject. Take the challenge and be a MAN, stop running away.

You have no clue or answer to my question which is why you have responded with a question to my question , this is a rather prideful way of side stepping my question.

Do I not deserve to have my question answered ?

Let me repeat it here , if the wording is difficult for comprehension let me know and I will endeavor to rephrase :

If the dead in Christ are already with Christ, what is the purpose of the resurrection ? Paul says that both the dead in Christ and those who are alive will meet with Jesus and be forever with him at this second coming , not before.

If death is the hope of us Christians, what makes us different from the death cults who kill their members en masse so as to be with their creator in Paradise ?

Is death our hope , or is the resurrection our hope ?


Or do you have no answer to this simple question ? Surely as a teacher or student who has possession of the truth, you should be able to enlighten us ignorant ones , no ?

So if a young believer asks you this simple question, what will you tell him ? nothing ?

I am waiting for your answer, be honest and respond or just admit you have been stumped with this question.

Answer his question first.

Pygru:
Answer his question first.

You guys are empty, all noise and nothing else.

When it comes to discussing issues with hard facts, your so called 'know it all ' teachers flee the scene.

I asked a simple question that true men of God like you should answer even without thinking, and what do I get back ?? A question and more insults.

Let me leave you and your true teachers with your myths.

honeric01: @alexco

why are you always cursing, insulting and yelling when you're asked clear questions?

Jesus was always calmed when answering questions throwned at him, the pharisee on the other hand were violent and abusive when Jesus asked them questions.

On this thread, check your posts and link them with these 2 analogy i wrote.

Btw, been reading from the beginning and your utterances and that of bobby, just and pygru are just too unchristian-like. You're leading more people to Satan than God with your way of handling issues on this thread.

May God have mercy!

But I never used any foul language.
You do not keep quiet and allow false teachers deceive the gullible.

frosbel:

You guys are empty, all noise and nothing else.

When it comes to discussing issues with hard facts, your so called 'know it all ' teachers flee the scene.

I asked a simple question that true men of God like you should answer even without thinking, and what do I get back ?? A question and more insults.

Let me leave you and your true teachers with your myths.

Stop making noise my friend. You made some points that one needs to study first before replying. Allow people to go through it. There is a difference between when am on the attacking line and when I want to study your points and see whether it makes sense or not. You think am here to display bible knowledge? Am here to learn but when you start talking nonsense then we drop the learning and continue with the attack. Am NEVER afraid of battles. Moreover, your question came up late last night so I slept and went to church this morning. Also taking my time to study your points. If you don't study people's point to see whether its true and only believe in spurious replies then you have a pride problem. You are not all knowing so don't make noise.

ijawkid:

Lol.......alex.......I can't remember when last on this thread you made any meaningful ,scriptural comment as regards this topic..............

Face topic bro.........at least before you leave this thread you would have a re-think as to your stance........

And Yes I am JW.................

Am thru with arguing with you young man. Both of us are on different platform so no point arguing with you. Am not also interested in reading your posts on this matter because its useless to me. We can talk about any other thing like: oil business in ijaw land. Thanks

nlMediator: [b][/b]

Don't you think the same questions can be posed back to you and used to impeach your arguments: Why does God need to see the wicked destroyed? What purpose does that serve? Can't God simply forgive them; after all, he tells us to forgive those who have wronged us? Does God derive pleasure somewhat from destroying sinners? Can you answer from the Bible?

You see, deciding on the question of eternal torment from the perspective of sadism is simply insensible and illogical. Because those who make that point agree that God would destroy the dead one time as punishment. But that meets the definition of sadism. Even mere human beings, much less christians, would be criticized for killing others - especially billions of people. That's why Hitler, Stalin, Mao are villified till today. They did not have to torment anybody eternally for them to be considered evil and sadistic. So, if you think God is no longer a God of love because of eternal torment, then you have to also concede He is not a God of love by killing or destorying people - including people that did Him no direct wrong; only that they rejected His message. And you also have to concede that the God in the Old Testament that helped the Israelites destroy their enemies is not the true God.

Bottomline: some of us may be toying with the danger of rejecting the only true God. I'd urge caution.

Killing unrepentant sinners is an act of love. Love for his obedient servants. God is allowing ample time for those who want to to repent. He hates having to destroy anyone. But because he's promised eternal peaceful future for the obedient ones, the unrepentant wicked must be removed so these don't disturb God's loyal ones. It's surely an act of love. Tormenting the wicked eternally is not, but clear sadism - something that is not in God's mind according to the Bible.


Psalm 37:9-13--- For those who are evil will be destroyed,but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy peace and prosperity. The wicked plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them; but the Lord laughs at the wicked,for he knows their day is coming.

Hitler and co are wicked because they act out the script of Satan -indiscriminate murder. God's judgement against unrepentant wicked can't be compared to that.

What we reject is the satanic lie that God derives some sort of sick joy from eternally tormenting the wicked.

frosbel,
Explain the meaning of Isiah 5:14 that says " Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp,& he that rejoiceth,shall descend into it."

alexleo:

Drop all those emotional displays. Lets face bible. If you are serving God based on condition, i.e. to say that if you agree in eternal torment it means God is wicked and should not be served, then you need to check your christianity. For me, I am not serving God on conditionalities. ETERNAL TORMENT OR NOT, I WILL SERVE GOD. ETERNAL TORMENT OR NOT, GOD IS NEVER WICKED IN MY VIEW. Its just like when i hear some of this penticostals give testimonies that they refused to serve God because they believe they ll be wretched when serving him but when they saw those who are serving him doing well they now accepted Christ. IS THAT THE BEST? TOO BAD. Serving God on conditionalities is NOT IT O MY DEAR. Job said in the scriptures, though he slay me, yet will i trust him. Thats the real serving God. Forget about wicked God emotions and lets talk bible.

word bro
this is just so enlightning

una like argument sha....
oga frosbel u no ansa me again.

wud u like we use another thread to talk about this lazarus story.

TroGunn:

Killing unrepentant sinners is an act of love. Love for his obedient servants. God is allowing ample time for those who want to to repent. He hates having to destroy anyone. But because he's promised eternal peaceful future for the obedient ones, the unrepentant wicked must be removed so these don't disturb God's loyal ones. It's surely an act of love. Tormenting the wicked eternally is not, but clear sadism - something that is not in God's mind according to the Bible.


Psalm 37:9-13--- For those who are evil will be destroyed,but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy peace and prosperity. The wicked plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them; but the Lord laughs at the wicked,for he knows their day is coming.

Hitler and co are wicked because they act out the script of Satan -indiscriminate murder. God's judgement against unrepentant wicked can't be compared to that.

What we reject is the satanic lie that God derives some sort of sick joy from eternally tormenting the wicked.

I don't think anybody here has ever said that God derives any joy from tormenting people eternally. Just as I'm sure you've never said God derives some joy in destroying the wicked (to protect the saved). Problem is you accuse the others of saying so, when such logic applies to you too. If you can't see the illogic in insisting otherwise, you're free to continue with your strawman argument.

frosbel:

Are you for real

So destruction is on the same level as 1 trillion years in eternal torment ?

God is loving in that he respects the wishes of MANKIND, in other words, those who aim for life will receive life while those who choose death will get their just deserts. Is this not love ? allowing people to make an informed decision without coercing them either way ?



Well , if your GOD will torture his creation for endless ages, it cannot be the GOD of the bible , that is plain and scriptural.





Indeed God is a consuming fire which goes even further to destroy you logic ,for if a fire is consuming , it consumes to ashes the objects of it's immense heat and burning. God's consuming fire does not linger beyond the destruction of the wicked.




Indeed , I reject the false god of sadism and religion.

Why don't you go to an atheist and tell him you serve a LOVING God who would destroy the unbeliever (for not believing in Jesus) and at the same time tell him that you do not believe Hitler, Stalin, Mao and other mass murderers are good people? I'll like to hear his response, commending your logical prowess. The point is that you cannot justify either conduct - eternal torment or one-time destruction - if your argument is anti-sadism. If you cannot grasp such elementary idea, maybe this topic is too high for you. BTW, can you find anywhere in the NT where God, who has urged christians to LOVE their neighbors, supports christians destroying their enemies for any reason?

Pygru:
But I never used any foul language.
You do not keep quiet and allow false teachers deceive the gullible.

They are false teachers because they don't believe in what you believe in? let the neutral decide which is right and which is wrong by going to study the word of God on their own.

I believe you're expected to tackle each-other by quoting scriptures to counter any wrong teachings you believe someone else is spreading instead of hiding behind one scripture to paint them "black".

nlMediator:


I don't think anybody here has ever said that God derives any joy from tormenting people eternally. Just as I'm sure you've never said God derives some joy in destroying the wicked (to protect the saved). Problem is you accuse the others of saying so, when such logic applies to you too. If you can't see the illogic in insisting otherwise, you're free to continue with your strawman argument.

You, sir/ma'am just don't get it. There's no illogic. While destroying the wicked one time is a necessity to protect the righteous, tormenting the wicked eternally is unnecessary and serves no purpose whatsoever. It's not justice. Death (absence of life), even today is the just punishment for the biggest crime. Prior to being born, the wicked were not alive. For refusing to repent and abide by God's directive, the just punishment for the wicked is to return them to lifelessness -death. It the 'wages of sin'. Eternal torment as punishment can only be sadism, something that is alien to the loving God.

alexleo:

Am thru with arguing with you young man. Both of us are on different platform so no point arguing with you. Am not also interested in reading your posts on this matter because its useless to me. We can talk about any other thing like: oil business in ijaw land. Thanks

Hehehehehehe.......

If you no answer my questions I no go give you one oil line to tap crude from o.............

Just an answer and an oil block is yours ........

ijawkid:

Hehehehehehe.......

If you no answer my questions I no go give you one oil line to tap crude from o.............

Just an answer and an oil block is yours ........

Lol. If u hav aces to oil block ursef i dnt tink u will hav so much time niraland.

true2god: Lol. If u hav aces to oil block ursef i dnt tink u will hav so much time niraland.

True2God na we dey the creeks dey do the oil bunkary na.................after tapping the oil I still do have time to come on nairaland to chat with y'all......

ijawkid:

True2God na we dey the creeks dey do the oil bunkary na.................after tapping the oil I still do have time to come on nairaland to chat with y'all......

Dats great, so u run an 'independent' oil firm and still hav time to obtain a degree. U r a business genuis. Wish u the best of luck.

Hope u dey cope well with the JTF shaa?

true2god: Dats great, so u run an 'independent' oil firm and still hav time to obtain a degree. U r a business genuis. Wish u the best of luck.

Hope u dey cope well with the JTF shaa?

JTF them wey we don bribe finish........

frosbel: Bro.Alexeo , I dey wait ooo

Tell me :

If the dead in Christ are already with Christ, what is the purpose of the resurrection ? Paul says that both the dead in Christ and those who are alive will meet with Jesus and be forever with him at this second coming , not before.

If death is the hope of us Christians, what makes us different from the death cults who kill their members en masse so as to be with their creator in Paradise ?

Is death our hope , or is the resurrection our hope ?

Here is my own little submission to what you asked, feel free to raise your objections(as long as its in a discussion mode rather than attacking mode).

Death is never our hope but the resurrection.
Let me start by making some points about sleep (which the bible also used to describe death).
1. When someone is said to be sleeping it means there will be a time the person will wake up.
2. someone that is sleeping is not totally out of activity rather he is inactive in one environment(physical) and active in another environment(the dream).

Now the bible describes death as sleep or those who died in christ as being asleep(as you rightly quoted in the scriptural passage) because of the fact that there is going to be a day they ll resurrect. That day, when the trump of God sounds they which are asleep in Christ will rise first(which is the first point i made about sleep). In other words, death in this sense is not a permanent end rather a temporary thing just like sleep. Again as i stated in my point two about sleep, someone who is said to be asleep is not totally out of activity rather, he is out of activity on one side of the divide and active on the other side. In other words, sleep takes one out of activity in one environment and bring him active in another environment. Therefore in this case where sleep defines what the bible means by death, the issue of what went on between Lazarus and the rich man when death took them away from being active in the earthly environment to be active in another environment(which is my second point about sleep) cannot be said to be false. Again that story did not tell us that Lazarus was in heaven but rather in the bosom of Abraham(the bible did not say it is heaven and we are not also saying that) Again there is nothing in that passage that suggests that Lazarus will dwell there forever. Rather what we see there is someone who is resting in the bossom of Abraham.

Here is another case to buttress this point in Revelation 6:9-11

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

The highlighted supports the fact that in death the soul is still active somewhere.
Resurrection remains our hope because it is at that time that our bodies will be changed to a glorious one which we will put on to go and be with the Lord forever(both the dead in Christ and the living).
And of course if there is no resurrection, those who are asleep in Christ perish because what else is a child of God worth without the hope of seeing Jesus and being with him forever.
YES I AGREE WITH YOU DEATH IS NOT OUR HOPE.

[quote author=alexleo]


Death is never our hope but the resurrection.

Ok, but there is also a sort of hope after death because we will be with the lord ?

1. When someone is said to be sleeping it means there will be a time the person will wake up.

You will agree however, that someone who is asleep is totally oblivious to his environment and non responsive to stimuli. !

2. someone that is sleeping is not totally out of activity rather he is inactive in one environment(physical) and active in another environment(the dream).

Can you support this with the bible.

Now the bible describes death as sleep or those who died in christ as being asleep(as you rightly quoted in the scriptural passage) because of the fact that there is going to be a day they ll resurrect. That day, when the trump of God sounds they which are asleep in Christ will rise first(which is the first point i made about sleep).

I agree 100%

In other words, death in this sense is not a permanent end rather a temporary thing just like sleep.

Yes

Again as i stated in my point two about sleep, someone who is said to be asleep is not totally out of activity rather, he is out of activity on one side of the divide and active on the other side.

How can this be ? sleep in the natural context implies a static position of rest, why should this be different with death ?

And which side of the divide are the righteous in this context ?

In other words, sleep takes one out of activity in one environment and bring him active in another environment.

But this is not the definition of sleep in the natural sense and the bible does not support this position.

Therefore in this case where sleep defines what the bible means by death, the issue of what went on between Lazarus and the rich man when death took them away from being active in the earthly environment to be active in another environment(which is my second point about sleep) cannot be said to be false. Again that story did not tell us that Lazarus was in heaven but rather in the bosom of Abraham(the bible did not say it is heaven and we are not also saying that) Again there is nothing in that passage that suggests that Lazarus will dwell there forever. Rather what we see there is someone who is resting in the bossom of Abraham.

1. How do you reconcile this to the verse in the bible , where Jesus said he will come back to take his saints to be with him after he prepares a place for them ? What is the point of him coming to take his dead saints to be with him if they are already with him ?

2. Paul said if there is no resurrection the dead in Christ have perished, surely he is wrong, the dead in Christ are with Christ , why should they perish ?

Here is another case to buttress this point in Revelation 6:9-11

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

This is an allegory similar to what we have recorded in Genesis 4:

"The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground." - Genesis 4:10

Are we to suggest here that Abel's blood was literally crying out ?

The highlighted supports the fact that in death the soul is still active somewhere.

Where ?

Resurrection remains our hope because it is at that time that our bodies will be changed to a glorious one which we will put on to go and be with the Lord forever(both the dead in Christ and the living).
And of course if there is no resurrection, those who are asleep in Christ perish because what else is a child of God worth without the hope of seeing Jesus and being with him forever.

But how can he perish ? He is not really dead , he is already living with the Lord in Abraham's bosom located in Heaven , no ? and the resurrection is just a formality , death has already achieved the Christian's hope of being with the Lord in heaven.

YES I AGREE WITH YOU DEATH IS NOT OUR HOPE.

If I knew I will be with the Lord immediately after death , I will hope and look forward to this event.

frosbel,your question as regards Gen.4:10 that "are we to suggest here that Abels blood was literally crying out to God" , shows your level of spiritual understandings.
What is the diff btw blood and a soul?
Levit 17:11 states" For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
Gen.9:4 "But the flesh with the life thereof,which is the blood thereof ,shall ye not eat."
This tells you that the life,which is the soul, is the same with the blood.You may see blood as a liquid substance,but it is really the life.That is why witches and demons drink blood.
God says it has a voice ,because it is a life,you are giving your opinion that it does not have a voice,so cannot cry.But God says ,the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground,because it is lively.

Your problem is that you assume too much.Lets see your opinion on Abraham's bosom.
You said "But how can he perish ?He is not really dead,he is already living with the Lord in Abrahams bosom,located in Heaven.
Is Abraham's bosom located in heaven? I want to tell you that the Bible says otherwise.

John 3:13"And no man hath ascended up to heaven,but he that came from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven." Meaning Abraham Isaac,Israel,David etc that died b4 Jesus's death on the cross were underneath the earth according to our Lord Jesus Christ.
Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes ( not his head) being tormented,and seeth Abraham afar off ( miles or distance) & Lazarus in his bosom ( in Abraham's abode). Verse 26 "And beside all this, btw us and you there is a great gulf fixed ( a great ocean fixed) :so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot ;neither can they pass to us ,that would come from thence". This shows clearly they were in the same place ,underneath the earth.

When Jesus died in the flesh b4 his resurrection,he went to Hades or sheol ( the abode of the dead ) & made proclamation to those who were in spiritual prison.( Greek word for proclamation is Kerusso) That is, proclaiming the truth to those in Abraham's bosom . Proclaiming to them the gospel and then led them to heaven to dwell with God. Eph 4:8-10 "Wherefor he saith,When he ascended up on high he led captivity captive ,& gave gifts unto men.(Now that he ascended;what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth( hell ) ?

Isiah 5:14 "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself ,and opened her mouth without measure :and their glory ,and their multitude......shall descend into it."
Does it make any meaning to say grave has enlarged herself?

You cannot impose your opinion.Hell is real.

^^^^



The life of the flesh, mark the word flesh, is in the blood, this has nothing to do with an actual entity called soul, for Man is a living soul according to Genesis 2 :7, only when the spirit or life of God dwells within him. By inference, the life of the flesh is in the blood no doubt while the life of a Man is with the breath of God. Herein we have a marked difference between the physical and the spiritual aspects of Man.

About the demon drinking blood joke you stated above, I hope this is not the fallacious gibberish you teach or preach to younger gullible Christians? Show us, for the benefit of doubt where the bible ever suggests that demons drink blood.

I can't really comment on the rest because my question remains unanswered, I want a point by point rebuttal.

Thanks.

enilove: frosbel,your question as regards Gen.4:10 that "are we to suggest here that Abels blood was literally crying out to God" , shows your level of spiritual understandings.
What is the diff btw blood and a soul?
Levit 17:11 states" For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
Gen.9:4 "But the flesh with the life thereof,which is the blood thereof ,shall ye not eat."
This tells you that the life,which is the soul, is the same with the blood.You may see blood as a liquid substance,but it is really the life.That is why witches and demons drink blood.
God says it has a voice ,because it is a life,you are giving your opinion that it does not have a voice,so cannot cry.But God says ,the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground,because it is lively.

Your problem is that you assume too much.Lets see your opinion on Abraham's bosom.
You said "But how can he perish ?He is not really dead,he is already living with the Lord in Abrahams bosom,located in Heaven.
Is Abraham's bosom located in heaven? I want to tell you that the Bible says otherwise.

John 3:13"And no man hath ascended up to heaven,but he that came from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven." Meaning Abraham Isaac,Israel,David etc that died b4 Jesus's death on the cross were underneath the earth according to our Lord Jesus Christ.
Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes ( not his head) being tormented,and seeth Abraham afar off ( miles or distance) & Lazarus in his bosom ( in Abraham's abode). Verse 26 "And beside all this, btw us and you there is a great gulf fixed ( a great ocean fixed) :so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot ;neither can they pass to us ,that would come from thence". This shows clearly they were in the same place ,underneath the earth.

When Jesus died in the flesh b4 his resurrection,he went to Hades or sheol ( the abode of the dead ) & made proclamation to those who were in spiritual prison.( Greek word for proclamation is Kerusso) That is, proclaiming the truth to those in Abraham's bosom . Proclaiming to them the gospel and then led them to heaven to dwell with God. Eph 4:8-10 "Wherefor he saith,When he ascended up on high he led captivity captive ,& gave gifts unto men.(Now that he ascended;what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth( hell ) ?

Isiah 5:14 "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself ,and opened her mouth without measure :and their glory ,and their multitude......shall descend into it."
Does it make any meaning to say grave has enlarged herself?

You cannot impose your opinion.Hell is real.

But eni I thought I had explained this isaiah 5:14 and even corroborating it with other scriptural verses...........didn't you read it??...........

Abeg o eni....so you mean after Jesus preached to the spirits down at abrahams bossom(because from your answers,though not even scriptural abrahams bossom is under-neath the earth) he took those spirits to heaven??......I still can't get you.......scriptures told us that Jesus never smelt the heavens not until days after his ressurection.....can you guys please read scriptures thoroughly so that you don't contradict yourselves??........

So for all those who were good that died before abraham,which bossom are they...??....

You guys need to do away with this hell fire dogma ooooo......it contradicts the scriptures right,left,back,front and center........

And I also see you've got a problem understanding genesis 4:10-11...abels blood which is also his life wasn't literally uttering words..rather abel had died as an innocent victim and justice called out ofr his murderer to be purnished........this also explains the blood of the dead saints in that alter mentioned in the book of revelation......

Trying comparing genesis 4:10 with hebrews 12:24....
__________________________
Let's read hebrews 12:24....
New Living Translation (©2007)
You have come to Jesus, the one
who mediates the new covenant
between God and people, and to
the sprinkled blood, which speaks
of forgiveness instead of crying
out for vengeance like the blood
of Abel.
___________________________


This is the most perfect verse that explains abels ""blood"" crying out.....

It wasn't literall,rather it was a symbolic..because as we know Jesus' blood does not speak of forgiveness literally,rather it does symbolically.....

EniLOVE...this is scriptures upon scriptures.......

Dont let the hell fire dogma obscure your view of scriptural truths.....

Let go of traditions and stick to what the bible really teaches....


Thank you.....