When did I say Jesus was in heaven? Are you imagining words on my post?

Muslims are awaiting Jesus to defend the religion of God - Islam, and bring peace to earth.

Dear belabela,

Sorry for the delayed response - life is busy. With regards to your question about the Messiah: I can confirm to you that Jesus IS the Messiah. When God makes reference to him in the Quran, he typically calls him Al-Maseeh (The Messiah) Isa (Jesus) ibn Maryam (son of Mary). In Islam, Jesus (peace be upon him) will be the one to reveal who is the anti-christ (as the antichrist will lie and claim to be the Christ), and Jesus will be the one to destroy the anti-christ. It's noteworthy that our stories are very close, even though the prophet Mohammed lived in the Arabian Desert and was illiterate his entire life. This, in my opinion, is further proof that the religions came from the same source (i.e. we are both believers in the one God).

Now, according to the Quran, Jesus did not die on the cross, and God says in the Quran that he had reclaimed Jesus only to bring him back at a later time (i.e. at the end of time, to destroy the anti-christ and bring peace to earth). This is by divine decree of God alone, Jesus is only the messenger and deliverer, he has no divine decree of his own (neither does the prophet of Islam, Mohammed, in case you were wondering). Prophets in Islam are humans - they have been given divine guidance and assistance, but they do not have any decree. They rely on God alone, and believe in his oneness - he has no children or partners, and he was not born into creation as he is the one who creates creation.

I have a question for you: Do Christians believe that Jesus died? If so, how is it that he will return to destroy the anti-christ? I'm not fully understanding this concept of Jesus dying for people's sins, but returning one day to fulfill more duties.

Thanks.

By the way @belabela - just because you've met 1 Muslim does not mean you've got a good representation of the religion. I'm sure you are aware of that, but I just wanted to point it out Just like if I meet a Christian who may not have a proper understanding of the religion, I would not judge Christianity based on him.

Peace.

@belabela - there is nothing in Islam or the Quran that suggests Jesus will "judge" anyone. Allah declared in the holy quran that Jesus did not die on the cross, and that God had taken him and he will return - and his return is one of the signs of the final hour (the day of judgement). His role will be to destroy the antichrist as well as unify the Muslims and Christians. There is no "judgement" that he performs on anyone.

@seyibrown - The form of God is something the human brain cannot comprehend, because we can only think within the boundaries of our limited world. How can God be in a place, when he created all places and the notion of a place? How can you say "Where" about God, when he is the one who created meaning for the word "Where"? There is absolutely nothing that is too hard for God and there are absolutely no limits to his power, but the human body and its limitations are not attributes that can be ascribed to the creator of the universe. Why would God have to come down in human form when the entire world we live in (our bodies, the air we breath, nature etc) is full of signs that point to a superior perfect creator? Also, why wouldn't God come in human form more regularly to make us understand? Why only Jesus? And if Jesus died on the cross "for our sins", then how does that translate onto God? Did God die on the cross? May God forgive me for even typing such a thought. The belief in God is the belief in that which we cannot see or hear - which is why we (as Muslims, Christians and Jews) all believe in God in this day in age even though we have not had any prophets or messengers sent to us. Please, forget the Quran and the Bible for a second and step back to think about what attributes you are ascribing to the one who created everything around you. Look at what an amazing system your body contains, look at the ecosystems around you in nature, why would the creator of all these things need to be placed in a human body to prove existence? Food for thought.

Peace.

wetu:

God is in heaven, God is in me. It is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our eyes.

That is quite a shallow statement, but I will challenge you sir on your statement. How could God be in heaven, or in you? How could God be any where? Isn't time and space (and place) a concept that is only known to us in this world? Surely the almighty creator is beyond such restrictive attributes such as place/space and time? Aren't you contradicting your very belief in what is "marvelous" in your eyes by stating that the very marvelous one is limited by such worldly attributes? Which brings me to the next point of treating Jesus, the man, the human, as God. How could the power that created the universe in a few days be limited within a human being? And why would such a supreme creator be limited to the mere body of a human? Why does the supreme creator need to be in a woman's womb? Doesn't it just sound ridiculous saying it?

Do not get me wrong friend, I'm not trying to attack your belief, but I am just extending a trail of thought to you that you may not have considered.

In terms of names (Immanuel etc) - I really don't think that is anything worth arguing about.

Peace.

Asalamu alaikom sweetnecta,

I don't think you are understanding my point re. scholarship and Islamic studies - the Quran is easy to understand, but it is also deep and complex in its meanings. If you watched the video, you will understand that the verse that mentions the name Azar is the first verse in the order all those verses came in terms of their timeline, and it is therefore the one that sets the context. In Quranic studies, there are verses which are specific in meaning (mohkamaat) and verses which are repetitive (motashabehaat). The scholars through the ages have analysed the specific verses, and those are where Islamic laws are derived from. My advice to you brother is to utilize the authoritative scholars over your own brain, because they deduce things which we cannot. I will give you an example. In the madhab (school of thought) of Abu Hanifa and Imam Jaafar Alsadiq (Hanafia and shia Jaafaria schools), the consumption of seafood (other than fish) is makrooh and even haram in some cases. Where as in all other schools of thought, this is allowed. So how did the 2 knowledgeable imams derive this meaning when the literal Quranic verse says that everything from the sea is lawful? These Imams took another law that was derived from the Quran and the Sunnah, where we as Muslims are instructed to not eat scavengers (animals that eat waste). Most shellfish/crayfish are scavengers, and the derived rule according to the 2 glorious imams was that the Quranic verse refers to fish and non-scavengers in the sea. Do you see how what you and me would see as a clear meaning in the Quran may have a deeper meaning?

Anyway, needless to say, I think we have exhausted the topic and cannot take our argument any further, so I will accept to agree to disagree May Allah accept from us and you.

I apologize for sparking up such a debate after the topic was dead. I'm seeing a lot of hatred here that is not required. If we are to have a debate about religions then surely more respect for each other is in order (that goes both ways, to Muslims talking to Christians and the opposite way).

For the member who questioned my ability to speak Arabic ("fusat" - I'd like to inform you that I am an Arab, and Arabic is my mother tongue. I come from the land of the very man we are talking about here - I come from modern day Iraq I just happened to have stumbled on this forum thread while searching for something.

For sweetnecta, I think you still do not understand my point. Also, I think you do not understand how the study of Islamic religion is conducted. Yes, the Quran has clear guidance in it, but it has a lot of deep meanings, and if it did not, it would not be the miracle that God has given the holy prophet peace be upon him. The only way for us to study the Quran is to learn it from our scholars. Scholarship in Islam is inherited my friend, not in a family line, but in a scholarship (teacher to student) line. The scholars of Islam inherit the knowledge from a holistic context (i.e. the Quran, the Sunnah, the actions of the companions and the imams and awlyaa). I am in no way claiming scholarship over here because I have no teacher to inherit this from, but I am pointing out to you that an authoritative source (a qualified scholar, sheikh al-shaarawi) is where I got my information from. Your understanding of the Quran (and mine) is worthless compared to a scholar. Also my friend, your talk of prophets having non-believers for wives and sons is not relevant here, we are not discussing wives and sons, we are discussing fathers. If you would like to see the video where the scholar explains this, it is available here in Arabic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2On1UpKDeQ&feature=feedrec_grec_index

From this perspective, we can deduce that Azar was not the father of the prophet Ibrahim. Was Terah the name of his father? As Muslims, we don't know and we don't care, because this is an irrelevant detail that makes no difference to our belief, hence why it was not mentioned in the Quran or the biography of the prophet.

For the person who asked about Taqyia, I'm afraid that I don't know enough about the topic to answer you. But I know what you are eluding to, may God forgive you for trying to spark controversy if that was your purpose. I can tell you that concept is referred to as a concept from Shia-Islam, but I can also tell you that your regular day to day (Shia) Muslims do not practice these sort of techniques.

For the member who said the Quran was written by the prophet Mohammed - well that is your own opinion, which is not based on fact. You can argue that ours isn't based on fact either, but ours is based on belief, and I can offer you nothing more than that. But I know that your opinion is not fact in any way, because you have no way of backing it up. Historians TRY to record facts, but they, like scientists, are not always right, and God knows best about how to surface the false assumptions that men might make in this world. The bottom line is, these are our beliefs and you are free to question them, but you should attempt to give them a fair understanding (by accessing a knowledgeable Muslim, not by doing your own subjective reading). God has taught us in the holy Quran that people are free to choose whether to believe or not, and that there is no compulsion in our religion.

To everyone - please stop spreading hatred between each other. Even if we (Muslims and Christians) disagree on certain things, we still have more in common with each other than any other polytheistic religion. Let us try to celebrate our commonality and work on making this a better world to live in, rather than spread hatred through our differences.

Peace.

Dear sweetnecta, I appreciate your quotations from the Quran, but I received my knowledge from a well known authority, not a "deviant sect". My authority comes from the noble Azhar in Egypt.

I will provide you a counter argument by referring you to Surat Albaqaraa in the holy Quran (chapter 2, verse 133) where Allah almight says:


Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam)."


Note that the mention of "thy fathers" include Isma'il here, when Isma'il peace be upon him is clearly not their father or the father of Jacob. The Arabic in here clearly demonstrates the ability to use the term "father" to someone who is not a biological father. In fact, the prophet peace and blessings be upon him used the term "father" to describe his uncle Abu Talib. Your references to Abb and Amm are correct, and they are the commonly used words. However, in the context of Islamic studies, we do not take our explanations from the "common language", as you know the Quran has much deeper meanings, and so our scholars extract these meanings by having a more complete picture of our religion, not just taking the literal translation.

I do agree with you that there are historical scholars who have taken your stance on the matter - they are not the majority, but they are more popular these days thanks to the financial backing of Saudi Arabia and the sect they promote.

Anyway, there is not much benefit in us arguing over this, as the name of Ibrahim's father and whether or not Azar was the father does not really gain us much benefit in our religion. But I just wanted to shed a different light to the discussion here.

God knows best.

I'm not sure if you read my reply at all. I do not appreciate your mockery also because I did not mock your beliefs.

The Quran does not reveal the name of Abraham's father, but it reveals that the idol maker in question here (Azar) was not his father. The biblical name Terah could be his name, but it was not revealed in the Quran hence why I could not comment.

Came across this while doing a search, and thought I'd chip in 2 cents from an Islamic background.

The mention of the name Azar in the Quran does not refer to the father of Ibrahim (Abraham), but a literal translation of the Quran, with a lack of understanding of the depth of the Arabic language used in the Quran, as well as overall knowledge of the religion of Islam, results in people concluding so.

The correct Islamic derivation states that Azar is an uncle of Ibrahim (Abraham) and that his biological father is a believer. The name of the father is not recorded.

The use of the word "father" in Arabic does not refer to the biological father here, as the name was explicitly mentioned after the word father - which means this is referring to an uncle of some sort. If he was the father, then the Quran would always say "Ibrahim's father", but it highlighted out the name in one instance (Ibrahim's father Azar) to give us the conclusion that Azar, the idol maker, is not Ibrahim's bioligical father. Also, prophetic biography (hadith) confirms that the lineage of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is pure, and therefore there could not have been any non-believers in the family chain that gave birth to him. From Adam to his father, Abdullah, the family line worships only 1 God - the true creator.

As to whether or not the biblical name is correct - that I cannot comment on as the correctness of these texts is not verified from my point of view (although we Muslims believe in the text that was revealed to Jesus and Moses, peace and blessings be upon them both, we know that the current version of the text is not what it was when it was first revealed).

Hope you find this info helpful.