TV01:

_{Warning - I couldn't procure a Valentine' date for love or money, so I'm taking my ire out on religionists, monetizers, haemaphrodites or any other purveyor of nonsense that strays into my path!}

hehe

@ OP a few points

1. There is no such thing as "The Pastor". Suggesting that one man - shepherding is not open to females - runs/heads/leads a congregation.
2. [u]Congregations are shepherded by a "plurality" of suitably qualified elders[/] - I'm referring to the norm here, not exceptional circumstances.
3. Marriage is between families, as the bible makes clear. Church involvement is not essential, although permitted and possibly useful.
4. There is only one Head of the Church (the body- The Lord Jesus Christ - blasphemers please take note.
5. Church - the gathering of believers - is but part of the Christian existence and the authority of church should be mostly limited to the fellowship. 6. Your Christiaqn faith of course, should drive, colour, and motivate all spheres of your life.

Religious organisations and their officers can enact whatever laws they deem fit. If you don't like it don't join or pay their subscriptions.

Come? Do they go as far as suggesting frequency and position? Its only that some of these organisations are run by very old, very staid people?

Gbam left, right and center

Which is why I have repeatedly asked godson to show us his scripture where the pastor is the head of the church. Of course he can't cos no such verse exists. All these man-made doctrines enslaving people . . .

_{TV look behind the facade of the new id and see a very huge fan of yours. Hint beantown}

viaro:

My pal woye77, thanks for the invitation. The topic is timely, especially because of the things I see among some (please note: 'some') Nigerian Christians whenever I visit London. I can't say much at this time, but suffice that believers (men) should be able to seek their own women as a matter of their own choice, rather than something like an 'application' at the gate of some company. I hope no one would be put off by my remarks, as that was not meant to be cynical - but men who are 'men' should be 'men' where it matters.

Proverbs 18:22 - 'Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD'. To 'find', the 'seeking' must take place as a matter of personal responsibility. It does not say that the favour was to be bestowed on the person seeking a wife on behalf of someone else.

(Just an asides, though. . . I know of some pastors/ leaders of churches who met their partners through the 'ministry' of a 'go-between' - you know, the type where someone says: 'please put in a good word for me. . toast her over to my coast'. I'm not making fun of such men, but they should not make things turn out like a circus for people under their leadership).

Simple! I am scared at the exalted positions that are conferred upon pastors these days. It really is disturbing. Perhaps you can help godson show us where the scripture is that says "The pastor is the HEAD of the church"  

Viaro,
    thank you much. I made that statement about the word "pastor" specifically to chide godson, I do understand there are translation issues that would render my generalization inaccurate, and I wasn't concerned with that given my discussion so far with godson. Thanks though

GODSON2009:

well the point of the thread itself is if the pastor is competent in a supervisory role when it concerns relationship between two of his flocks,so its either u disagree with the assertion or agree finish enough of all this rigmarole pls
where exactly did i change my story ??i said and have consistently maintained that the pastor of a given church is the head of that church or the sheperd leading that church he can also be likened to the spiritual father of that church apostle paul called timothy his spiritual son in colossians, which brings back my point will you now get married without consulting the father of your bride
i ll show you the relevant scriptures as soon as you simply answer if the pastor is the sheperd/spiritual father of his own church or parish or not with the reasons why thanking you in advancerun in circles? i have maintained the same point which is evident all through my postings,so why dont u espouse the role of the pastor in a church he is supposed to be sheperding then seeing as he is not heading that particular church?your answer, who are the elders of the church the five fold ministry
14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.(james 5;14 niv version of the bible)in order to get some clarity cause your points are starting to befuddle me,what in your own opinion are the roles of the pastor?i have addressed this particular question earlier,once you answer the questions i posed i will avail you of the relevant passages, however the bible passages of the five fold ministry which i posted should have enlightened you on the role they are supposed to play,including a specific mention of the pastor unless you are now saying the evangelist or the deacon will be heading the church while the pastor will be an usher,then i will start to understand your own brand of christianity,which is why i have consistently asked you to catalogue the role of a pastorno he didnt but he delegated a trusted servant,who acted as a defacto elder to seek out a GODLY wife for his son what role was the trusted servant playing at that point in time

---

Please just show me the scripture where the "pastor is the head of the church" - that is the significant issue I picked with your post - I'm unwilling to go down these diversionary roads that deflect from the issue. Just show us the scripture. Thanks.

And I'm willing to bet $1000 bucks and my ride, that you didn't know the word "pastor" appears only once in the entire New Testament. Once. and only a few times in the OT.
[
well im sorry if im not ready to play hoots with you,why dont you come back to base by simply telling me or cataloging the role of a pastor in your opinion,then we will start from there.
second what order of heirachy will you arrange the five fold ministry after you have done this then i will be obliged to address your question because it seems to me that you just come up with a random question and expect me to go running and giving you passages of the bible while you r relaxing n waiting for your secretary to come back.
im waiting for your explanation so that you can fully commit yourself to a stance,like i have done then i will adress your questions

More words but no substance.

I have asked only one simple question since the begining of the thread and you have consistently done the electric slide around it, show us the[u] scripture where the pastor is the head of the church [/u] as you claimed. Simple. Thank you.

GODSON2009:

no one including the poster has argued with you that christ is not the head of the church,however that does not dismiss the fact that the pastor has a role to play in the ministry of christ which is running the church/body of believers on behalf of the supreme head which is christ yes or no?

1. Since you like recommending me to go read, perhaps you should re-read my first post. I never said the pastor has no role, I said his role has been distorted.

Arté:

The complimentary role that pastors are supposed to play in our lives has been so assaulted, bastardized, modified, re-packaged and then elevated and placed on an untouchable pedestal that is a few rungs higher up the ladder than even God himself.

2. Now you've changed your story. You first said the pastor was the head of the church, now you say he has a "role" - which was what I first said all along.

GODSON2009:

of course you should inform the pastor, remember the pastor is the spiritual father and he/she will be in the best position to seek the face of GOD concerning the relationship.

GODSON2009:

im at work, but i promise to post a bible verse re iterating the importance of the head of the church,

Now please supply the relevant scriptures that say the "pastor is the head of the church". Gracias.

---

if you have answered no then i will be interested in knowing what order of haierachy you are following concerning jesus christ and the five fold ministry e.t.c does the fact that you pray yourself,now nullify the job of a pastor in the church??

Don't run in circles. I have not insinuated anywhere the pastor doesn't have a role.

are all christians all exercising the same level of faith?

Nope. But they certainly DO NOT need a pastor to pray for them. The bible is very clear Jesus Christ only is the mediator between man and God - not the pastor.

or maybe you are now telling us that every christian must have their own personal churches individually seeing as pastor are not important and dont play any role.

Nope again. I have consistently maintained the role of the pastor has been abused and elevated to a status the bible doesn't give it. Stop picking bones of contention where I have raised none .

i asked you earlier on if you have come across the five fold ministry but you didnt reply, that in itself shows you that there are relevant religious leaders after christ who the lord has sent to minister and take care of his people.

go and read acts of the apostles and the letters of apostle paul including the functions of the disciples after jesus left, in genesis who did abraham .
in conclusion again go and read genesis 24,

  You're not saying much. Pastors, apostles, deacons etc all have their roles, nobody is contesting that here - please just show me the scripture of the pastor's headship, shikena.

why didnt abraham send his son isaac to go off and look for a wife amongst his people after his death??
after all according to your own reasoning,he was an adult and didnt need the guidance of anyone least of all a pastor,
we have been told that isaac prior to that time was a compliant and gentle child who obeyed his father when he wanted to sacrifice him,so he must have been a model child yet his father sought the guidance of a knowledgeable and matured servant to lead him to the right wife.

Unecessary digressions. Did Abraham consult his local pastor first? are we now living and doing things according to how the ancients did it? Anyways this is offtopic and I won't address it should you refer to it again.

---

Please just show me the scripture where the "pastor is the head of the church" - that is the significant issue I picked with your post - I'm unwilling to go down these diversionary roads that deflect from the issue. Just show us the scripture. Thanks.

And I'm willing to bet $1000 bucks and my ride, that you didn't know the word "pastor" appears only once in the entire New Testament. Once. and only a few times in the OT.

Mabell, thank you for your question my friend. I will now answer as best I can.

mabell:

@ Arte i have reread you post like you asked, i still want you to explain or better still let me rephrase it
hmm!?! prosperity, not always a good thing, how. please teach me!

How about if we let the bible teach us? No greater teacher than Jesus himself:

Matthew 10: story of the rich man -

17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

Do you see those astonishing words from Jesus himself? "How hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"! - this Mabell my friend is why prosperity is not always a good thing.

  Also see Proverbs 30:8 -
8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
       give me neither poverty nor riches,
       but give me only my daily bread.

9 Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
       and say, 'Who is the LORD ?'
       Or I may become poor and steal,
       and so dishonor the name of my God

You see that Mabell? This prayer is from Solomon himself! the wisest man according to the bible to have ever lived. How much more should we puny followers follow his example! He asked for neither poverty nor riches, just enough to live comfortably.

nuella2:

So how do we touch and bless others.

In the same way Jesus did. By preaching the gospel and serving people.

Was Jesus needy on earth? He was not begging as people where giving to him
Luke 8:3
   And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

 My sister, meeting the everyday physical needs(greatest possible emphasis on NEEDS) of someone is lightyears away from the prosperity gospel of claiming cars and mansions.

If you say Abraham is not the standard then why are we the seeds of Ahraham? What kind of life did this righteous, prosperous man live.

Yet again I remind you what about the prophets of God who were poor? what about the apostles in the NT? were they somehow not living up to the "standard" of material wealth of Abraham?

He was blesseth to be a blessing, he was blessed with what? gold,silver,camels name it. The man was wealthy my dear. Jesus died so we can be saved, healed and prosperous, thats is goodnews.

Again what is really the good news or gospel according to John 3:16?

---

nuella2:

Jesus became poor so that you will remain poor? a thousand times no.
2 Cor. 8:9
    For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Is for your sake that he was poor so what is wrong in telling a christian that part of the benefit of believing the gospel of our lord Jesus christ.

Lol, so what does it mean when it says Jesus was once "rich" but chose to become poor? Does it mean Jesus was a secret millionaire but chose to instead live like a poor man? or he was rich when he was young and then became poor? please explain.

  or does it simply mean Jesus came down from his exalted position with God in heaven and became "poor" like we are, so that therefore we could - through his sacrifice - become "rich" in spirit as He is/was? Remember I told you human definition of "wealth and rich" is not the same as God's.

GODSON2009:

im at work,but i promise to post a bible verse re iterating the importance of the head of the church,

  Christ is the head of the church NOT the pastor.
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife even as[b] Christ is the head of the church[/b], his body, and is himself its Savior.

Col 1:18
And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

ill pose a question back at you,when you need someone to pray for you,do you wait for jesus christ to come down from heaven

Nope. I pray myself, or ask any of my christian friends or family to pray along with me. Since afterall, no one person pastor or not has more access to God than another.

in concvlusion of my very short preamble,have you come across the verse in acts of the apostle where apostle paul highlighted the importance of the five fold ministry?pls go and read this

I'll wait for you to post your relevant scriptures showing how and when Christ was demoted and the pastor became the head of the church. Cheers.

GODSON2009:

of course you should inform the pastor,remember the pastor is the spiritual father and he/she will be in the best position to seek the face of GOD concerning the relationship.
will you marry a girl without informing her earthly father or acknowledging him?

Please supply the appropriate scriptures to back up this claim or retract it.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

hmm . . . no mention of pastor in-between God-Jesus-man . . . perhaps Paul made some mistake here?

"Giant-killer faith vs. Chicken faith" = "Patjoe vs. Kunle"    wetin pesin no go see for NL

I am with the chicken faith on this one, if that means putting ones trust in only the sacrifice of Christ and not material gain, then I am a chicken all day long and extremely proud of it  

mabell:

hmm!?!
prosperity not a good thing, how. please teach me!

Re-read my post again, then re-ask your question.

Arté:

2. Do you know riches can come from sources other than God? do you know that prosperity is not always a good thing?

You should inform the pastor definitely.
Also inform the detectives at the local police department, the district attorney at the court house, the butcher at the local grocery store and if you have time the mechanic that regularly services your car.

---

The complimentary role that pastors are supposed to play in our lives has been so assaulted, bastardized, modified, re-packaged and then elevated and placed on an untouchable pedestal that is a few rungs higher up the ladder than even God himself. And where's the Holyspirit in all this? relegated to a pastime role if any at all. I am fearful for naija "churches" and "christians".

Chris,

I (and I think others) are not disagreeing with you that the rules of "civil" engagement go out the window when the bullets are zipping inches past your face and you see your loved one lying on the floor in blood. Its human and natural to seek vengeance.

If events unfolded as shown in the video, police (if they really were) went round gathering people from their homes and then proceeded to execute them on the street - this not done in self-defense or retaliation for the death of a loved one - where is the sense or justification for this? were those men and teenagers the ones who killed people in the riots?

nuella2:

You didnt answer my question o? what is prosperity?

 Nuella I did now lol

Arté:
God's idea of prosperity is most evident in the life of His son whom He sent. Was Jesus rich? did he go about preaching prosperity? did he seek to accumulate possessions and fancy cars? Infact what did he tell that rich young man to do? to give away all his wealth!
 
If we are to be christians - which means christ-like, which means to live as Jesus did, why are you chasing after wealth and prosperity when Jesus himself didn't? Jesus only concern was "doing his father's business" and being pleasing to God and we should be and seek the same.

Prosperity in the godly sense is living a christ-like life, growing in the spirit and leading a life that blesses and touches others, pointing them back to God. Who do we look to for example other than Jesus himself? what was his life like?

I dont preach prosperity but i preach salvation, in salvation is properity and and healing. Should i preach sickness and povery because some christians were sick and poor in the bible. Let God be true, i will take Gods report not man.

Of course not. But YOU tried to highlight Abraham as the standard for how God wants us all to be rich and I pointed out that there were many "christians" who were poor.

SALVATION IS A PACKAGE THAT INCLUDE PROSPERITY, HEALTH, PEACE, JOY AND ABOVE ALL THE SAVING OF A MAN(SINNER).

No, salvation is not a "package". It is simply what is says in John 3:16 - That whoever believes in Jesus will not perish but be saved. That is salvation.

Patjoe:

Since my pastor taught on firstfruits, I have been doing it and my finances has moved forward. I just gave my firstfruit this year and things are already happening. above all things, my faith has risen so high, i have developped a giant killer faith, money is nothing to me again, there is nothing i can not give to God now. praise God

1. Do you think God is in the least bit interested in how much money you can give Him?

2. Do you know riches can come from sources other than God? do you know that prosperity is not always a good thing?

3. Do you know that your "giant killer faith" should not be rooted in anything other than the sacrifice of Jesus? not material wealth? because then it is not truly faith? but simply a shallow response to a temporary season?

Viaro, easy now, oga no vex like that. Even if Deepsight threw the first punch, we should simply turn the other cheek and return with blessing no?

nuella2:

So how do God proper us? He prospered Abraham?(AND HE BECAME VERY GREAT)WHY? Was he SICK? BARREN? So what is your definition of PROPERITY.

Abraham is just ONE of thousands of credited men/women of faith in the bible. There are countless others who were 'poor', sick, struggled and died terrible deaths whom God approved of. Most especially look at the lives of the prophets, were they materially rich? or was it infact just the opposite?

God's idea of prosperity is most evident in the life of His son whom He sent. Was Jesus rich? did he go about preaching prosperity? did he seek to accumulate possessions and fancy cars? Infact what did he tell that rich young man to do? to give away all his wealth!
 
  If we are to be christians - which means christ-like, which means to live as Jesus did, why are you chasing after wealth and prosperity when Jesus himself didn't? Jesus only concern was "doing his father's business" and being pleasing to God and we should be and seek the same.

There is nothing wrong in being generous and giving to one's leaders or pastors. It is good.

However, the questions that Deepsight put forth highlight the furthest possible abuse of "giving to pastors" and there is everything wrong with that.

It goes against the humble examples we see of 'pastors' in the bible, whose concern was not the accumulation of wealth or the entertainment of lavish gifts from their converts but rather the solemn dedication to only preaching the gospel and living an exemplary lifestyle that was evident of selflessness and self-denial. What we see in Naija goes against in spirit and in practice the examples laid before us in the bible and I daresay Paul coulda gathered for himself great wealth from his countless followers if he wanted to.

Joagbaje:

Childish prayer, Its not meant for a christian. So did God answer that prayer.

  Lol, this is a childish prayer? LOL 
Prv 30:8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
       give me neither poverty nor riches,
       but give me only my daily bread.

Do you know this prayer was written by Solomon? the wisest man according to the scriptures to ever walk the face of the earth? lol  oh the irony. I guess Kunle was speaking not only retrospectively but also prophetically when he said this:

KunleOshob:

@Arte
This people have sold their souls to mamon it would takea lot more than showing them scriptures to show them that they are following a flase gospel. The scriptures is very cear on this and Agbaje being a pastor is quite aware of this, but they have been trained to twist scriptures / ignore any part of the scriptures that does not encourage their lust for filthy lucre. Imagine he even once called James the brother of christ a "baby" christian just becos James writings contradict their filthy teachings.

Deut. 8:18
    But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth.
im sure your bible didnt read "power to get poverty"

Oh my bible definitely says those things too. But I don't see where it says to chase after it? do you? your definition of wealthy and riches are not the same as God's. That is the rock upon which you're constantly stumbling over.

Joagbaje:

I know your big brothers sent you to paste such article,

I'm honored Pastor and Kunle would be considered my "big brothers" lol. Infact self they know me very well.

There is no provision for sickness in Christ.

False. Paul, Timothy, Job just to mention a few that struggled with their health.

There is no provision for struggle in Christ.

False again. Paul again, Job again, Joseph, Daniel, David and practically every prophet in the OT.
Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but[u] also to suffer[/u] for him
Perhaps Paul was just telling a joke here?

There is no provision for poverty in Christ.

You would do well to heed to Proverbs 30:8-10

8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
       give me neither poverty nor riches,
       but give me only my daily bread.

9 Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
       and say, 'Who is the LORD ?'
       Or I may become poor and steal,
       and so dishonor the name of my God.

Was this writer also joking just like Paul?

I am scared of people according to the persuations of Joagbaje. That even when truth is staring you dead in the face, you prefer to look to the left and continue in falsehood.

If you read the article, it is not calling for christians to live in poverty or to be materially poor. It is saying to strive not to be materially rich, but to seek joy and satisfaction in GOD, in the pursuit of knowing and understanding Him and His ways - not in physical wealth and comfort.

God wants us to prosper, He wants good for us as the scriptures teach, but we misunderstand what the word is truly saying because our definition of prosperity is so different from His, our definition of good, is so different from His.

Chrisbenogor:

In times of war right and wrong are so close that its almost impossible to differentiate them. A girl runs out of a church to answer an important call from her boss and some of these goons are passing by, just before she knows it her other ear is off and they begin chasing everyone into the church with their machetes, it took the pastor of the church bringing out a gun from his pulpit to make the goons run away, but if she were your sister and you had a gun in your hand at that moment would you think of right and wrong? I doubt that. BTW that was a real life story one of the few skirmishes that sparked the fight.

I agree with that, but did you watch the video?

There is very very bold fine line between killing in self-defense as is with the story you told, and cold murder of random people as is the case in the video. If it happened as the video shows, there is no excuse, no justifiable reason whatsoever for those kinds of actions.

MyJoe:
But let me add that "uncultured barbarism" is not the exclusive property of our security agencies. Barbarism in our police force can only be a reflection, perhaps, a multiplication or amplification, of that in the general societies.

So true.

So I can reword the poem of Pastor Martin Niemöller, the anti-Nazi activist, thus:
First they killed Boko Haram leaders, Davidylan cheered.
Then they killed suspected rioters in Maiduguri, Davidylan cheered.
Then they killed Davidylan, . . .

Could not have captured it better.

davidylan:

its what islamic fundamentalists understand. I say continue shooting them.

As much as I am in favor (and believe me I am) of employing the harshest possible means in dealing with fundamentalists who have no desire to live at peace with their neighbors, this is wrong, and should appeal vehemently to the humanity in us all.

In a society professing to be civil, the police force, sworn and entrusted with serving and protecting the people, cannot leisurely make rounds about neighborhoods, pick at randomn anyone they deem suspicious, and then proceed to ruthlessly execute them in full view of the public. This is wrong from every conceivable angle and I daresay christians (of which I am one) should be the most vocal in their opposition of this.

bibiking1:

I find it disheartening (as most of you have) to be sordidly reminded that the ones fighting for a better Nigeria are Octogenerians and older folks, it is a clear indicant of the blase and listless attitude the youths (yours sincerely included) exude towards issues of national issues.
On the one hand is a Soyinka fighting, on the other hand are the Aondooakaa's (or whatever annoying name his mother cast oh him) the Rilwan Lukmans, the Yayale's, the Madueke's who are also well past their prime ages. Basically, the youths are still not being given the opportunity to love Nigeria (either as villians or heros).
There is a programmed attempt to stiffle the rising of the youths! While many would argue that it is the youths that ought to break free from this suppression, it is also necessary to note that the force being exerted in the silencing campaign is unprecedented!

Guilty as charged. I find myself thinking about this very point often, but at a serious lack of hope or faith that any undertaking will be met and rewarded with measurable change.

I just saw this video few moments ago: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-396947.0.html

In a country where the police force, sworn and entrusted with serving and protecting the people, can leisurely make rounds about neighborhoods, pick at randomn anyone they deem suspicious, and then proceed to ruthlessly execute them in full view of the public - and yet face no swift response from the law - because they are the law - what hope is there for the foreseeable future that anything will change for the better?

^ ROTFLOL coming from those Danish people again?

If we have brilliant, honest men like Soyinka rising from the soil of Nigeria, how ever did we get stuck with a legislative truckload of foolish, thieving, diabolical, wicked, incompetent leaders like Yaradua and co at the top?

You have not eaten Italian food if:

1. you didn't eat the food in Italy

2. you ate it in an american-"italian" restaurant

3. it wasn't an Italian that cooked it for you.

And this applies for almost any food from any country. You're not really getting the authentic dish when its originating from 2nd and 3rd hand sources. What we call "chinese food" here is laughed at by asians when they visit.

I only wish more pastors and church leaders in positions of power, had the spiritual guts to preach this gospel of selflessness and self-denial on a regular basis.

You will not go wrong in reading this article, full of substance and relevance to the christian and non-christian alike.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100204/theologian-most-christians-infected-with-prosperity-gospel/index.html

Most professing Christians in America are infected with at least some measure of the health and wealth gospel, said one theologian. That is, believers have no concept of a love and a joy that does not eliminate hardship and heartache, Sam Storms of Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City said at a pastors conference this week.

"For most professing believers if God is love He must promise to minimize my struggles and maximize my pleasure," he lamented. Many believe it's their spiritual birthright to experience comfort and prosperity and that it's God divine obligation to provide it. It's a disease that's rampant in the culture and in the church. People are inundated with messages from powerbrokers, media, entertainment, TV evangelists and bestselling authors that say joy is inextricably bound up in material prosperity, physical health, relational success and all the comforts and conveniences Western society provides.

For most people, joy and suffering are incompatible, Storms noted. Thus preachers have a difficult task at hand in communicating to such a culture a genuine joy found in Christ. The so-called prosperity gospel that teaches wealth and good health is a sign of God's favor and blessing is prevalent in the church, Storm lamented. Underlining the seriousness of the problematic theology many preachers have picked up, the Oklahoma City pastor called it a "corrosive and disintegrative pox" on the church and "a disease far more infectious and ultimately fatal to the soul than the worst bubonic plague and the affects it might have on the human body."

"We have to fight this infection in the body of Christ," he emphatically told pastors at the Desiring God conference in Minneapolis. But the blame for the rampant "disease" shouldn't fall on the TV evangelists, Storms noted. "I want to lay it (the blame) at our feet," he said.

"It's the pastors and leaders of the church today who fail to explain from the biblical text how hardship and tribulation are actually used by God to expose the superficiality of all the human material props on which we rely," he explained. " We failed ,  to show ,  how hardship and persecution and slander compel us to rely on the all-sufficiency of everything God is for us in Jesus." That failure has left most professing Christians unable to grasp "the simple truth" that "infinitely more important and of immeasurably greater value than our physical comfort in this world is our spiritual conformity to Christ," Storms noted.

And conformity to the image of Christ is orchestrated through trials and hardship. "If I suffer it is because God values something in me greater than my physical comfort and health that He in His infinite wisdom and kindness knows can only be attained by means of physical affliction and the lessons of submission and dependency and trust in Him that I learn from it," he said. "That's how suffering serves joy."

Everyday people are hearing about a joy less durable and far inferior than the one offered by God. Yet, Storms asked pastors, when was the last time you expounded on the nature of the fullness of joy, ,  the superior beauty of God? Citing the work of 18th century theologian Jonathan Edwards, Storms advised pastors on how a "Christian hedonist" should preach on the pursuit of joy.  "The pursuit of God brings 'delights of a more sublime nature', 'pleasures that are more solid and substantial . . . vastly sweeter, and more exquisitely delighting, and are of a more satisfying nature . . . that exceed the pleasures of the vain, sensual youth, as much as gold and pearls do dirt and dung,'" he said, reading from Edwards' sermon "Youth and the Pleasures of Piety. "

He continued, "Loving God 'is an affection that is of a more sublime and excellent nature’ than the love of any earthly object. Such love is always mutual, and thus the love one receives from Christ 'vastly exceeds the love of any earthly lover.'" "Edwards argued that the problem isn't the pursuit of pleasure but the willingness of uninformed minds to settle for comparatively inferior joys when God offers us unsurpassed and far more durable delights," Storms explained. The Bridgeway pastor reminded fellow ministers that delighting themselves in the Lord isn't a choice, but a command and duty. Sin, he said, is denying a fillet mignon so you can fill your bellies with rancid ground beef.

We are not pursuing pleasure without God, but in Him, Storms stressed. Speakers at the Feb. 1-3 Desiring God conference devoted their talks on the foundation of Christian Hedonism, a term coined by Desiring God's John Piper, and the pursuit of joy.

Bob Blincoe, U.S. director of Frontiers in Phoenix, Ariz., defined Christian Hedonism as "the desire for God," "desiring Him more than all other things" and "the confidence that there is nothing else worthy of our desire, nor rival treasure to treasuring Him."

"Christian Hedonists ,  neglect every distraction, every attraction, every seduction, every sinful thought, and every temptation because we have set our hearts on the far exceeding treasure: God Himself," Blincoe said. 

This is heart wrenching    I pray the law that states "you reap what you sow" will be infinitely true in the lives of these murderers. Imagine the relatives left behind, I guess one can gain some small insight as to why a muslim youth would turn to violence.