hey superman, i guess i also don't know what you meant, lol

what i would like to point out to people on this thread which i keep pointing to every person is that every country has its own problems.
There's no need for a pissing contest. Nigeria obviously has a lot of corruption which is holding the country back and poor infrastructure.
South Africa too has a fair share of its own problems. Crime, poverty, income inequality etc. So instead of Nigerians and South Africans
having a pissing contest, we simply have to acknowledge our own problems and get down to fixing them. Simple as that. I know that it might
be difficult for Nigerians to acknowledge that SA may be better in some respects than Nigeria, but Nigeria too is better than SA in some respects
too. Its just natural. So i find this pissing contest a little childish if you ask me. I have been to Nigeria and i know what its like there, and i could
right a lot of negative things about your country too if i wanted, but i just don't see the point, if you know what i mean.

what i would like to point out to people on this thread which i keep pointing to every person is that every country has its own problems.
There's no need for a pissing contest. Nigeria obviously has a lot of corruption which is holding the country back and poor infrastructure.
South Africa too has a fair share of its own problems. Crime, poverty, income inequality etc. So instead of Nigerians and South Africans
having a pissing contest, we simply have to acknowledge our own problems and get down to fixing them. Simple as that. I know that it might
be difficult for Nigerians to acknowledge that SA may be better in some respects than Nigeria, but Nigeria too is better than SA in some respects
too. Its just natural. So i find this pissing contest a little childish if you ask me. I have been to Nigeria and i know what its like there, and i could
right a lot of negative things about your country too if i wanted, but i just don't see the point, if you know what i mean.

Guys, a subway for Lagos would be one of the best things to happen to Lagos. I have not been there, but the
most horrible story i heard was that you can literally get stuck in traffic for 3/4 hours to get to the airport. I have
been to Ghana, Accra and the city planning leaves a lot to be desired while the roads makes it even more difficult
to move from A to B. So a subway would be a unique opportunity to design something new without having to
upset the already built environment of the city. In Johannesburg, the government is already building a subway
called the Gautrain to be completed in 2009/2010 in a $4 billion project.

In order for Lagos to become world class, strong leadership is needed to fix problems and take bold steps. The
power problems can not stop Lagos from fixing its transport infrastructure while working on a lasting solution for
electricity. The two are not mutually exclusive and can be done together.

Sean, that makes for interesting reading. I am only happy that the kind of racists
that often make all the headlines on the internet, actually get sidelined by people
who can think logically. Most of them can not utter those words in SA without
quickly being sidelined and perhaps even losing their dignity. So what you
see on these online forums does not reflect the majority of what white people
necessarily think in SA. Contrary to this, many people are working hard to make
SA a better place for all. Naturally there are many who are not happy with the
govt for not delivering on certain promises and they are free to voice their opinion.
However on the whole i personally believe that the ANC has achieved a near
miracle when considering the constraints and the injustices of the past. Rome
was not built in a day.

So despite the fact that we still have people who wish the old apartheid system
was still in place, the majority of people now simply want a better place for everyone.
Naturally things like crime and poverty tend to polarize people especially because
it often affects one racial group more than the other or at least people's perceive this
to be the case. The truth of course tend to be a little different than the general
perceptions.

ok, now i have some time to respond. First let me deal with the issue of crime in SA

- Crime is a big problem in Joburg (biggest city), Durban (to some extent), Pretoria (not that much)
- Cape Town is probably the safest city in South Africa at the moment
- make sure you have someone who knows the place to take you around.
- people won't smile to you if they don't know you, because of crime no one trusts any stranger

- The reason for crime in SA is very complex, but it has to do with some of the following things:-

- poverty among blacks in the midst of riches (SA is the 18th largest economy in the world with a GDP of
$579 billion so there is a lot of money in the economy but this is skewed in favour of 10 % of the population
(i.e. whites) who controls 90% of the economy). The economy only creates skilled jobs (500,000 jobs were created by
the economy last year, but most of the poor are unemployed as they do not have the skills that the economy wants).

- illegal immigrants most of whom come into the country looking for jobs only to find that there
is none for the unskilled and resort to crime to survive. Now here things get very interesting
You find the bank robbers who are typically Zimbabwean, Mozambicans and South Africans,
or Crack dealers who are typically Nigerians and cellphone thieves who are South Africans
or Zimbabweans but working for Nigerian syndicates etc and rapists who are typically
South African. Perhaps SA is the only African country with 10 million illegal immigrants
from the rest of Africa and thus the problems this presents are unique.

- Corrupt police who are also plagued by mismanagement and incompetency. Most of the police
earn peanuts and so they are prone to being corrupted by criminals who dangle some carrots.

- Organized crime syndicates who work in the country organized by all sorts of people both from
SA, Nigeria, Zimbabwe and other Eastern Europe.

- Unlike most countries in Africa, there is a lot of loot to steal in SA (Consider the fact that there
are 700,000 new cars bought in SA - that is 60% of all new cars bought in Africa) and the new
government who were caught napping after a long celebration for the newly won victory against
apartheid woke up and found the criminals had already setup shop and looting like crazy.

I hope this will give you some perspective on the problem of Crime which is also part of the reason why
there is Zenophobia as the ordinary South African starts feeling like all these illegal immigrants are here to
destroy their country, cause crime, take "their jobs" etc. Obviously this is not always the case, but the reality
on the presents a really complex situation.

true that, i do have to mention that there is a lot of interest in the Nigerian economy from South Africa. Something
which is also changing the perception of the average man in the street. So Nigeria can only go up and i for one
know that no Nigerian today will tolerate the dictators that have robbed that country of its success. So things
can only get better. But like everyone else we all have our problems and in SA, crime, illegal immigrants who are
also helping to fuel the crime wave as well as corruption are the biggest problems right now. Current estimates
are that there is more than 10 million illegal immigrants in SA now. There is likely more than 1 million Nigerians
here and most of them are not in SA just to come and help the country. Many come to SA looking for greener
pastures only to arrive in SA and find that its not all that green for people who are not skilled so they have to
resort to crime to survive.

However, if you are an educated engineer (transport, chemical, electrical, civil), architect, MBA, finance, CEO, production
manager, medical doctor, telecommunications specialist, veterinary scientists, bio-medical specialist, project manager,
maths and science teacher with experience then South Africa is looking for you. The Minister of Home Affairs last
week announced that they will give 35,000 permits to foreigners and allow them to come into the country for 3 months
to look for employment in any of these areas. What i can tell you is that if you are educated and come to SA you are going
to enjoy it, but if not you are likely going to have a lot of misery unlike say the the UK or Europe where you can just
work at McDonalds etc. I know Nigerians in SA who earn $100,000+ and live a much better lifestyle than their counterparts
in the US as property as cost of living is much cheaper in SA.

As for the perception of being better than Nigeria, this will always be there until Nigeria begins to develop its economy and infrastructure
and take its rightful position in the global economy. Even in West Africa, the Ivorians probably used to think that they are better than anyone in
the sub-region and when i was in Ghana, i also noticed that Ghanaians claiming to be better than Nigerians. This is just something that
is always there whether we like it or not and not just a South African thing. Even Nigerians on this forum have a tendency of saying that
they are better than other people.

But most people who think like that are normally the sort of people you won't loose anything by avoiding them. They tend to be the ignorant and un-educated type often the sort of people who don't contribute anything to their own countries. But as i said, this will disappear with time as people
become less ignorant and travel into other countries in Africa.

dblock, as i mentioned before, you need to understand that it isn't as simple as that. Nigeria is obviously a super power in Sub-Saharan Africa
and has had to bear most of the cost in ensuring a peaceful West Africa and South Africa. Granted, i am sure before Nelson Mandela era, the whites
didn't give squat about Africa and probably did nothing about it except when it was going to benefit them something. But things have changed
drastically since then. Mbeki wen't on to champion NEPAD and his idea of the African renaissance together with Obasanjo. He has been mediating
peace in DRC, Burundi, Lesotho, Ivory Coast, Sudan etc while also fighting the West to open up more to Africa. He probably didn't intervene a lot in West Africa because Nigeria has largely taken care of this sub-region. oday the South African National Defence Force is deployed in a lot of countries around Africa in peace keeping missions.

So i think it doesn't have to be a pissing contest between Nigeria and SA but rather more co-operation is needed to ensure and stable continent between
all countries within the AU. And i have seen a lot of expending their effort to try and prove that X is doing more for the continent than Y. This in my humble
opinion will only derail progress in Africa. I hope that our leaders do not engage in the manner that i have seen in some of these forums, because if they do
then god help us all.

Have to agree with you there, Nigerians are some of the proudest nations i have ever met.
Also some of the most enterprising people i have ever seen in Africa.

Having said that, i would urge anyone looking to visit SA not to be deterred by all this negativity
i see on this thread. The crime is perhaps just as bad as say Lagos if you take some precautions.

There are a lot of Nigerians in South Africa and i am pretty sure they will give you a different story.
You do have to watch out when you are in Joburg. If you want to be in a more relaxed city then
i would recommend Cape Town which is relatively safe. Although it feels more European than Joburg
in terms of its racial mix. When i have time, i will give you a bit of a background to help you unravel
the complexity of the country that is South Africa. You will see that after all its simply a normal country
that is going through its own painful transition with its own unique challenges much like Nigeria.

- Zenophobia is still a problem especially amongst the poor black people

- This is largely due to the perception that foreigners are here to take their jobs (e.g. Zimbabweans work the farms
for next to nothing)

- The Majority of the Nigerians that first came to SA settled around Hillbrow (Northern part of downtown Joburg) which
subsequently degenerated into some kind of a Harlem due to peddling drugs and other related illegal activities. Many
South Africans credit the Nigerians for causing the demise of Hillbrow. This is a perception that fuels zenophobia.

- Most nigerians also operate countless cellphone shops which help keep the cellphone theft industry alive by buying
stolen phones (often taken at gunpoint from their owners). Some of the gangs that terrorize people for their phones
are organized by these Nigerian operated cellphone shops. This obviously breeds more hatred towards foreigners
who all end up being painted by the same brush.

- For the record we do have some of the most educated Nigerians in the South African corporate sector. The poor South Africans who often constitute a very unproductive section of the economy's population are the most zenophobia. This situation has changed a lot
and incidences of zenophibia are now far and in between.

- recently the government instituted measures to fight this and turn Joburg into a friendly environment for Africans who today constitute more than half of the tourists coming to SA.

I am a South African so i will try and give some perspective behind the really confusing country that is South Africa.

- Crime is a problem in Joburg and to some extent Durban and Pretoria.
- It is however far less of a problem in Cape Town
- Don't expect any stranger to smile at you in Joburg because nobody trust any stranger (due to crime)
- The average South African is fairly ignorant about the rest of Africa and the world for that matter
- This is largely due to apartheid which restricted free movement of black people even inside the country
- if you travelled outside you would be targeted as a "terrorist" in support of the freedom fighter movement
 by the apartheid government. So only a fraction of black South Africans even have a passport as we speak.
- The first time most South Africans saw Nigerians was in 1995+