Ken4Christ mehn, communication is hard o! See me sweating to communicate that I know all this just that it's not my emphasis! First get them to see he isn't an angel! All these extra steps, not sure what you're trying to achieve with me! I'm saved. i teach salvation that way. Again, I know and agree!

I wonder how possible it is to communicate my point with you again. Pls what don't you understand? What exactly are you replying to gan gan? Pls nairalanders, your help is needed in communication o!

Ken4Christ:


Jesus is not angel Michael. He created the angels. And all the angels are commanded to worship him.

Believing alone does not save. It is the first step. And you must believe with your heart. You must be heartily persuaded that Jesus died for you.

The final step is to confess him as your Lord and Personal Saviour. The moment you say it, you will be saved.

Matthew 12:37 For BY THY WORDS thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

You have to realize i have no issue with you. Not sure why you have been trying so hard to preach salvation to me. I know this. It's correct, only it's not the point I was making

My point is, to teach the truth about Jesus is what saves simple. He is no angel, but they think he is. See my point now?

MaxInDHouse:


That's a topic only Jehovah's Witnesses can teach!

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God is easy to say but BELIEVING (TRUSTING) that he is God's only begotten Son is really really hard for anyone who has not been taught what that phrase "only begotten Son of God" means!

I'm writing a book. I'll drop excerpts here in this forum. I used the New World Translation primarily. It's so clear it'll need no arguing. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Till then...

Ken4Christ:


Before Jesus died, you must believe that he is the Son of God. But after his death, you must believe he died for you and that God raised him from the dead to justify you. This is the key to your salvation. Hence, Apostle Paul wrote;

Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I know na! It's you who's misunderstanding me!

okay maybe this will make it clear to you once and for all...

i believe Jesus is angel Michael (ie "son of God" = angel in this case) and he rose for the dead for my sins. Am i saved?

see, i dunno how else to make it clear to you!!

Ken4Christ:


If you believe in Jesus

See ehn, if you read the book of 1 John, you'll see that what saves is believing that Jesus is the Son of God! The problem is that the very meaning of that phrase is lost to some. It means "angel" to them but really means God Almighty (this is a debate I don't intend to get into today for those reading this- but I will soon enough). What Jesus claimed, from scripture, is that he is the SON OF GOD, the problem is what that phrase means! This is what is lost to some and must be explained for ppl to be saved

Ken4Christ:


If you believe in Jesus, you will believe there is hell also because he spoke about it in such a way that it was not ambiguous.

If you believe in Jesus that he is what??! These are the issues! Again, the exact truth about Jesus is what is necessary for salvation!!

Ken4Christ:

And there is a tendency to live a careless life when you believe that hell does not exist. You will also encourage those who hear you to live a careless life thereby luring them to hell. And God will not hold you guiltless.

Me i dunno about you ooo! But believing in hell has NEVER done anything for me! Fear isn't even of God; One's motivation for serving Jesus CANNOT be fear or the Christian walk of the person won't be effective:

NKJV Heb 2:14-15: "¹⁴ Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, ¹⁵ and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Fear of death is a LIFETIME BONDAGE! One Jesus came to set ppl from! It'll actually hinder spiritual growth. No, what helps is the revelation of the love of Christ, not fear of hell. You can teach about it and let others know about it, but that's about it. Trust God to keep the person who's mind is stayed on him.

However when one tells someone who believes Jesus is an angel to "accept Christ" m not sure how much good that does. This is why m more focused on getting them to believe the truth of who Jesus is instead. That's really all one needs to be saved. A person who doesn't believe in a literal hell will still avoid it by believing the truth about Jesus and receiving his sacrifice regardless

Ken4Christ:


The scripture already told you they will be cast into the Lake of fire. You responsibility is to believe.

Hell is a spiritual domain where lost souls go to. It is well organized just like our correctional centres. It's like a cell holding lost souls awaiting final judgment. So, when the time comes for the final judgment, all inmates will be released for final judgment. And after judgment, they will be thrown into a worse place known as the Lake of fire. Put in another term, it is rivers of liquid fire. It is far worse than hell.

Now hell, which kept these inmates has fulfilled its purpose and it is now empty. It will also be thrown into the Lake of fire.

Death is another spiritual domain that holds some people who died but have not yet entered hell. The people in that domain will also be released for final judgment. Death will also be thrown into the Lake of fire.

The Lake of fire is real. Don't plan to go there. Receive Jesus now into your life and save yourself from that terrible place.

MaxInDHouse:
Really enjoyed the time spent with you!

Yea, that's how it should be

Ooh we will have our time. We'll talk Trinity in future like I said for sure.

Until then...

MaxInDHouse:

You'll observe how calm and collected i am when answering you but i never asked you any questions because i know if i should do you will end up saying "I DON'T KNOW"
Well have it at the back of your mind that animals do perceive spirits and the spirits don't enjoy possessing animals like humans.
Farewell!

MaxInDHouse:


THEY ENTERED INTO THE SWINE!

Ok...

But the only thing now that separates us is that in your own exegesis you claimed that "torment" can mean "prevent a person from doing what they love" though unable to give any other real life example where it can actually mean that, but expecting that it is accepted that this is the only exception in the whole world where it means this (unless you'll now give that example here where torment means this)

pigs can't see spirits tho. Insignificant to this talk anyways.

If you are ok with believing stuff where suddenly one word means something totally different such as to back up your claim, tho you can't find it meaning so anywhere else, good for you.

But like I'd said, there's bigger fish to fry. Cheers

MaxInDHouse:


The pigs saw them coming that's why they all rushed off the cliff.

One more thing I'll like to know:

How did the pigs see the spirits? with physical eyes or spiritual eyes? Why can pigs see them coming, but humans can't see them coming to possess them?

2) They begged to enter the pigs. Did they fully intend to enter those pigs or not? lemme quote the New World Translation so it can be clear for u to see and respond

Mar 5:12-13 NWT 12 So they entreated him, saying: "Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them." 13 And he permitted them. With that the unclean spirits came out and entered into the swine; and the herd rushed over the precipice into the sea, about two thousand of them, and they drowned one after another in the sea.

Maynman:


The interpretation is clear, but your agenda as one of the fallen watchers of yaldaboath won’t let you agree.

let's give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe there's something he's yet to tell us. Oya pls answer what i asked and "show workings" pls

MaxInDHouse:



It's your interpretation against mine so there's no need saying you got it right when you can't prove what you're saying in reality.

You sure? You saying they wanted to be "close to humans" isn't wrong considering they didn't end up in any humans at the end? And Jesus won't be there with them in another country to prevent them from staying in someone else there? Make me understand how so pls

actually there's more

4) Even when sent out of the country, they can go into ANOTHER COUNTRY to meet other "nice humans" to interact with! The problem isn't that they cannot meet other humans again na! Again, the problem is that they wanted to remain, as said exactly in the scripture, IN THE COUNTRY! Absence of humans has absolutely no bearing on it!

MaxInDHouse:


Both of them means exactly the same thing when we're talking about spirits who only enjoy their time with other beings.
First note what led this spirits out of their former abode, they wanted to have direct dealings with humans so they came down and started having S3X with female humans {Genesis 6:1-2} after their children, wives and in-laws were destroyed in the flood they returned to heaven as spirit beings but God didn't allow them to mix with His loyal and faithful spirit sons, that's what outer darkness meant {1Peter 3:19-20; 2Peter 2:4; Jude 6} so they began looking for humans to possess! Matthew 15:22 compare to 12:43-45
So once they're driven out of the human they became desperate again looking for someone else to possess.
Now the real torment is when they're all locked up in a place where they can't have access to living humans anymore. It's like arresting all the criminals throughout the world and locking them up in one maximum prison where they can't have access to nice people again, surely it's real torment to them because they enjoy dealing with nice people who are innocent unlike criminals like them who keeps suspecting every move they make! Revelations 20:1-3

Inconsistent with that passage

1) Those to whom u claim "torment" meant "not mixing with nice humans" BEGGED to be sent into as pigs (not humans). They were ok to be sent into PIGS!

2) Once in the pigs they KILLED THEM and didn't even have anything they were inhabiting again! They didn't care about the pigs! They didn't care about not having a body to inhabit and be "homeless" in neither pigs nor humans! All they cared about was simply that they REMAINED IN THAT SAME COUNTRY whether they were inhabiting something or NOT!

3) Once more, just accept God's word for the EXACT WORD IT SAYS! They didn't want to go out of the country! No preference or mention is given IN THIS CONTEXT about inhabiting humans!

Your exegesis is wrong!

MaxInDHouse:


Both of them means exactly the same thing when we're talking about spirits who only enjoy their time with other beings.
First note what led this spirits out of their former abode, they wanted to have direct dealings with humans so they came down and started having S3X with female humans {Genesis 6:1-2} after their children, wives and in-laws were destroyed in the flood they returned to heaven as spirit beings but God didn't allow them to mix with His loyal and faithful spirit sons, that's what outer darkness meant {1Peter 3:19-20; 2Peter 2:4; Jude 6} so they began looking for humans to possess! Matthew 15:22 compare to 12:43-45
So once they're driven out of the human they became desperate again looking for someone else to possess.
Now the real torment is when they're all locked up in a place where they can't have access to living humans anymore. It's like arresting all the criminals throughout the world and locking them up in one maximum prison where they can't have access to nice people again, surely it's real torment to them because they enjoy dealing with nice people who are innocent unlike criminals like them who keeps suspecting every move they make! Revelations 20:1-3

.

MaxInDHouse:


According to the dictionary we both read torment can be emotional or pains inflicted on the PHYSICAL BODY of any living thing.
But this time around we are talking about living beings who don't have physical bodies so their own torments can only be emotional since they don't have PHYSICAL BODIES.

God's word need to be understood from the perspective of the scriptures.
There's no scripture from Genesis to Malachi that states how spirit beings can be tortured except through Jesus' parables and symbolic speeches. So if you think spirit beings without physical bodies can be tortured it's OK but you can't force it down everyone's throat.
Work on it, preach and teach it then present the fruit of your TEACHINGS! Matthew 7:16-18

Very good.

Now address this 👇🏽

Mikee19:
MaxInDHouse consider this:

The gospels (Matthew to John) being written by different authors means that we will have different observations of the same event. This can help us in this case to determine the meaning of the word "torment" as used by them. Here is what i mean:

Luke's version:

cKJV+ Luk 8:28,31: "²⁸ When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of God most high? I beg you, torment me not. … ³¹ And they begged him that he would not command them to go out into the abyss."

What you implied from this verse of scripture is that maybe by "torment" they meant "don't send us into the abyss". Meaning "torment" in this context, means "restraining in the abyss". If this is the case we should expect any other observer to report it exactly the same way. Why? Because "torment" cannot mean "restraining in the abyss" here, and go then change meaning to something else completely suddenly, no matter who is reporting it!. For example, "Fufu" reported by Bayo will still be the same "fufu" when Tunji is the one who says it; if both of them write "fufu" they CANNOT mean another thing from each other!

If "torment" truly meant "restraining in the abyss" in that particular context, then obviously it will retain the same meaning no matter which other gospel writer reports that same story, not so? This must make sense to you na, abi? This is common sense!

So let's see what somebody else reported that same story as:

cKJV+ Mar 5:7,10: "⁷ And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the most high God? I adjure you by God, that you torment me not. … ¹⁰ And he begged him much that he would not send them away out of the country."

You see the problem? "Torment" cannot mean "don't send us into the abyss" in one place and then no longer mean that, to all of a sudden become "don't send us out of the country"! That makes NO SENSE AT ALL!

No, "torment" CANNOT mean either "retaining in the abyss" or "sending out of the country" at the same time! This means it means NEITHER!

What really happened was that they made TWO DIFFERENT PLEAS to Jesus

1) Don't torment us

2) Depending on which writer you read from, EITHER "Don't send us into the abyss" or "Don't send us away from the country"

TWO DIFFERENT PLEAS!

That's the only way this makes sense!

And so each writer of the gospel only recorded what they heard. But they both heard "torment" and recorded that they told Jesus not to torment them!

Fufu means fufu. ewure means goat.

Fufu CANNOT change to cow milk suddenly simply because a different writer is giving his own account of what he heard, neither can ewure suddenly change to sunlight just because it's a different writer! In the same way "torment" cannot change from one meaning to another just because it's recorded by someone else!

"Torment" cannot NEVER mean "restraining in the abyss" because BOTH WRITERS would have recorded THE EXACT SAME THING if it were so. The fact that they didn't means it doesn't mean that AT ALL!

So whatever "torment" means, a careful comparison shows it cannot mean any other meaning that what we ordinarily know as "torment"

PROOF!

MaxInDHouse consider this:

The gospels (Matthew to John) being written by different authors means that we will have different observations of the same event. This can help us in this case to determine the meaning of the word "torment" as used by them. Here is what i mean:

Luke's version:

cKJV+ Luk 8:28,31: "²⁸ When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of God most high? I beg you, torment me not. … ³¹ And they begged him that he would not command them to go out into the abyss."

What you implied from this verse of scripture is that maybe by "torment" they meant "don't send us into the abyss". Meaning "torment" in this context, means "restraining in the abyss". If this is the case we should expect any other observer to report it exactly the same way. Why? Because "torment" cannot mean "restraining in the abyss" here, and go then change meaning to something else completely suddenly, no matter who is reporting it!. For example, "Fufu" reported by Bayo will still be the same "fufu" when Tunji is the one who says it; if both of them write "fufu" they CANNOT mean another thing from each other!

If "torment" truly meant "restraining in the abyss" in that particular context, then obviously it will retain the same meaning no matter which other gospel writer reports that same story, not so? This must make sense to you na, abi? This is common sense!

So let's see what somebody else reported that same story as:

cKJV+ Mar 5:7,10: "⁷ And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the most high God? I adjure you by God, that you torment me not. … ¹⁰ And he begged him much that he would not send them away out of the country."

You see the problem? "Torment" cannot mean "don't send us into the abyss" in one place and then no longer mean that, to all of a sudden become "don't send us out of the country"! That makes NO SENSE AT ALL!

No, "torment" CANNOT mean either "retaining in the abyss" or "sending out of the country" at the same time! This means it means NEITHER!

What really happened was that they made TWO DIFFERENT PLEAS to Jesus

1) Don't torment us

2) Depending on which writer you read from, EITHER "Don't send us into the abyss" or "Don't send us away from the country"

TWO DIFFERENT PLEAS!

That's the only way this makes sense!

And so each writer of the gospel only recorded what they heard. But they both heard "torment" and recorded that they told Jesus not to torment them!

Fufu means fufu. ewure means goat.

Fufu CANNOT change to cow milk suddenly simply because a different writer is giving his own account of what he heard, neither can ewure suddenly change to sunlight just because it's a different writer! In the same way "torment" cannot change from one meaning to another just because it's recorded by someone else!

"Torment" cannot NEVER mean "restraining in the abyss" because BOTH WRITERS would have recorded THE EXACT SAME THING if it were so. The fact that they didn't means it doesn't mean that AT ALL!

So whatever "torment" means, a careful comparison shows it cannot mean any other meaning that what we ordinarily know as "torment"

PROOF!

MaxInDHouse:




If you're talking about torments regarding spirit beings (not humans or animals with physical bodies) then it couldn't be anything else but emotional torture!

WRONG!

there is a spiritual body just like there is a physical body! The spiritual realm is EXACTLY like the physical realm! They can feel harm in that realm too! This is no proof at all

You have given a meaning absolutely not present in any dictionary! Show me your meaning from the dictionary so that we can see

MaxInDHouse:




Tormenting doesn't always mean "inflicting pains" that's what the dictionary says!


So when you have a preconceived thought on the word you need to consider the general meaning of the word instead of concluding you have the final say.

Here we are talking about spirits with no physical bodies so it's their feelings that matters here not some infliction of pain! Psalms 78:41

MaxInDHouse:




Tormenting doesn't always mean "inflicting pains" that's what the dictionary says!

But you failed to supply the verb form as was used to show what it can mean!

MaxInDHouse:

So when you have a preconceived thought on the word you need to consider the general meaning of the word instead of concluding you have the final say.

Ok no problem. I am forced to bring the verb form since you absolutely refused to do so yourself. Here are the possible meanings from Oxford advanced American dictionary:

1 torment somebody(formal)to make someone suffer very much

2 torment somebody/something to annoy a person or an animal in a cruel way because you think it is amusing

So which of these "general meanings" is it?

Lemme also add the dictionary I use, wordweb, available online:

1. Torment emotionally or mentally
- torture, excruciate, rack, wrack

2. Harass persistently in cruel or annoying way
"The children tormented the stuttering teacher";
- rag, bedevil, crucify, dun, frustrate

3. Subject to torture
"The sinners will be tormented in Hell, according to the Bible";
- torture, excruciate

So which of these "general meanings" is it then?

One thing I like about nairaland is that everything is done in public. The other time I called out a JW for subtly twisting Jesus' words to defend his doctrine, And here it'll be obvious that you had to "water down" the meaning of a word just so that your doctrine can be defended. This is in public, everyone will be able to see this

EXTREME anguish IS NOT idleness! EXTREME pain IS NOT idleness! Loool I mean!

To have a shot at it you have to throw away that "extreme" from it first sef, to just something like anguish, pain, etc, then it will still need further watering down to become idleness!

I'll let you in on a secret. Without doing what that other JW guy did in switching up Jesus' words, or you in watering down a word, you will NEVER be able to successfully defend your doctrine! Every doctrine will always fall flat on its face without this!

Mikee19:
While I await the verb definition, I'll like to point out something you did (actually HAD TO DO, in order to conform to JWs beliefs)

In your definition of the noun form, you took the meaning "extreme pain" (ie not just pain but one that is EXTREME), "extreme anguish" (ie not just anguish but one that is EXTREME), and "extreme mistery" (same here), stripped them of that adjective qualifying them ("extreme", and finally reducing them to something on the level of "discomfort"; preventing someone from doing something the person loves (I have to be honest, I chuckled quite a bit at that one )

There is a mighty world of difference between someone in some discomfort because they are prevented from doing what they love, and someone in EXTREME pain/anguish/misery! As in, pain that is EXTREME! Mehn, that's not idleness ooo! Very mighty world of difference! Now when you bring the verb form of the word you'll see it is even much clearer; according to Oxford dictionary the synonym of that word "torment" is "torture". As a VERB!

They were asking Jesus not to torture them before the time, and you think they were only asking that they be not idle

Sir, something is a noun and another is a verb FOR A REASON. Even if they correlate, pls bring it still, whether it makes a difference or not

MaxInDHouse:


The noun and verb correlates as Jesus only wanted to deprive them of their temporary enjoyment. But according to the Bible a time is coming when Jesus will torment them for a long time (one thousand years) Revelations 20:1-3
So the torment here is about depriving them of what they enjoy doing!

While I await the verb definition, I'll like to point out something you did (actually HAD TO DO, in order to conform to JWs beliefs)

In your definition of the noun form, you took the meaning "extreme pain" (ie not just pain but one that is EXTREME), "extreme anguish" (ie not just anguish but one that is EXTREME), and "extreme mistery" (same here), stripped them of that adjective qualifying them ("extreme", and finally reducing them to something on the level of "discomfort"; preventing someone from doing something the person loves (I have to be honest, I chuckled quite a bit at that one )

There is a mighty world of difference between someone in some discomfort because they are prevented from doing what they love, and someone in EXTREME pain/anguish/misery! As in, pain that is EXTREME! Mehn, that's not idleness ooo! Very mighty world of difference! Now when you bring the verb form of the word you'll see it is even much clearer; according to Oxford dictionary the synonym of that word "torment" is "torture". As a VERB!

They were asking Jesus not to torture them before the time, and you think they were only asking that they be not idle

MaxInDHouse:

Below is the Oxford dictionary meaning of the word
TORMENT

(obsolete)
©A catapult or other kind of war-engine.
Torture, originally as inflicted by an instrument of torture.
©Any extreme pain, anguish or misery, either physical or mental.
(example)He was bitter from the torments of the divorce.

So the demons were telling Jesus not to disturb their temporary enjoyment after all God has restricted them from having dealings with their fellow angels in heaven {2Peter 2:4} and when they're idle the only thing they do with their being is living inside another being (human) {Matthew 12:43-45} they're also aware that a time has been set when they will not even have access to living mankind! Revelations 20:1-3


Jesus spoke in parables and symbolic terms {Matthew 13:13,34} so when he talked about FIRE he meant the feelings an unrepentant evildoer has, it's like saying someone is "sitting on fire" of course it doesn't mean literal fire but that he/she not enjoying himself or herself!

Umm sorry sir but you have the "noun" definition of that word "torment". All these you've put here is torment as a noun.

In the verse i gave they were asking Jesus not to torment (verb) them, that's actually do something to them, i.e. torment as an action word!

So what's "torment" as a verb from your Oxford dictionary sir?

MaxInDHouse:

Below is the Oxford dictionary meaning of the word
TORMENT

(obsolete)
©A catapult or other kind of war-engine.
Torture, originally as inflicted by an instrument of torture.
©Any extreme pain, anguish or misery, either physical or mental.
(example)He was bitter from the torments of the divorce.

So the demons were telling Jesus not to disturb their temporary enjoyment after all God has restricted them from having dealings with their fellow angels in heaven {2Peter 2:4} and when they're idle the only thing they do with their being is living inside another being (human) {Matthew 12:43-45} they're also aware that a time has been set when they will not even have access to living mankind! Revelations 20:1-3


Jesus spoke in parables and symbolic terms {Matthew 13:13,34} so when he talked about FIRE he meant the feelings an unrepentant evildoer has, it's like saying someone is "sitting on fire" of course it doesn't mean literal fire but that he/she not enjoying himself or herself!

...

Mikee19:
Good question OP. Lemme tell a little story...

So there's this kingdom somewhere with many enemies. These enemies are creating so much problem that they have to install a new king specifically to defeat them. Which of these is true of those enemies

A) They are non-concrete things like "anger", "lack of sleep", etc

B) They are concrete, but inanimate things like an overgrown forest that needs to be "conquered"

C) They are real persons antagonizing the kingdom. They need to be defeated ASAP!

Pls note your answer here, and don't change it up at all no matter what happens, because this particular answer is devoid of bias and is very honest, since you don't know exactly yet whose story I'm telling you.

Anyways:

NKJV Ps 110:1: "¹ A Psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”"

NKJV 1Co 15:25-26: "²⁵ For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. ²⁶ The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

I just told you the story of Jesus. The passage you quoted is the actual fulfillment of Jesus defeating "death" his enemy. You know your original answer? Exactly!

To you death may be something inanimate, that can't be cast into a fire, but not so to God and Jesus. Similar for hell to being something literal as well...

You mind if i counter with another question tho? In this passage:

NKJV Mt 8:29: "²⁹ And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”"

What sort of "torment" were the demons afraid of? Actual literal torment was scaring them, or just something figurative and non-existent? Was there an actual time in future referred to by them, or they were just lying?

Choose your answer carefully

Good question OP. Lemme tell a little story...

So there's this kingdom somewhere with many enemies. These enemies are creating so much problem that they have to install a new king specifically to defeat them. Which of these is true of those enemies

A) They are non-concrete things like "anger", "lack of sleep", etc

B) They are concrete, but inanimate things like an overgrown forest that needs to be "conquered"

C) They are real persons antagonizing the kingdom. They need to be defeated ASAP!

Pls note your answer here, and don't change it up at all no matter what happens, because this particular answer is devoid of bias and is very honest, since you don't know exactly yet whose story I'm telling you.

Anyways:

NKJV Ps 110:1: "¹ A Psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”"

NKJV 1Co 15:25-26: "²⁵ For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. ²⁶ The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

I just told you the story of Jesus. The passage you quoted is the actual fulfillment of Jesus defeating "death" his enemy. You know your original answer? Exactly!

To you death may be something inanimate, that can't be cast into a fire, but not so to God and Jesus. Similar for hell to being something literal as well...

You mind if i counter with another question tho? In this passage:

NKJV Mt 8:29: "²⁹ And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”"

What sort of "torment" were the demons afraid of? Actual literal torment was scaring them, or just something figurative and non-existent? Was there an actual time in future referred to by them, or they were just lying?

Choose your answer carefully

cornelboy:
Revelation 20:14
[14]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Are hell and death something that could be cast and burn in fire?
Or does the lake of fire symbolise something else?

Praise Jesus!!

Danyyyyyyyyyyy:
Good morning
I thought this story would be helpful to some people or at least motivational
So around 200 level my dad's company was hit with recession, it was a huge gap from the life we were all used to
My siblings changed school to reduce the finances and since I was the first uni student in the family , my dad swore that he would make sure I finished
Before gaining admission I was only a Christian by mouth , I no dey pray , I no dey read Bible but I was one of the lead singers in church ( it was by force , coz they found out I could sing) but I still never sang from my heart , I sang because I could
Eventually the person that dragged me to church graduated and I stopped going for 3 years I went like 5 or 6 times
Around 300 level I found out I had 3 carryovers all because of my poor attendance , I didn't care , all I kept saying was " it's not my fault"
I wasn't eating , I was always sick , I lost weight ( no be say I get weight to lose oh) I also lost money , na so I vex , I left home to my friends place , I lied to her that I'd stay for just a week and I ended up staying for a month plus ,this was after 300 level exam , I was depressed , I felt like a failure , the worse was that in my first year I actually made first class so I want from the best to the worst , I was hiding from everyone
I used to answer questions in class , I stopped , gossip flies fast in my school , they will be like after all the overdo see her GPA
That's how my dad begged me to go back and try , that he won't force me to be the best , I should just finish what I started so that all his efforts don't go to waste
I went back home , got ready and left for school , I didn't want to go back, everyone believed I wasn't coming back so what would they say if I came back , I was just having anxiety , mixed feelings fear , I don't know when I picked up my Bible , I didn't feel like complaining to anyone again , I started praying , I was allowed in my hostel and promised to pay my fees by month end
One day I couldn't reach my dad, I was broke and hungry and i called my siblings , they said that daddy was sick and there's nothing at home , I was so sad , and then that same day another friend said something so small on a normal day I for just laugh , I went to my room , I started crying from my chest , it was like someone stabbed me in my chest and I started quarrelling with God " I'm a good person , why do you keep allowing this people to look down on me ? I don't steal , I've not killed anyone, I'm trying to be okay but I'm hurt and I know I should be happy that I'm living but I'm still sad because I don't feel like I'm living "

I Sha quarrelled with him like I was quarrelling a person and the tears were just pouring and I could barely breath , someone will think that they beat me
The next Monday I heard my HOD requested for me , on my way there my shoe spoilt boom I started crying again , I called my bestie , I told her I'm not sure why I'm crying but I just want her to tell me something anything , she started saying it's okay , calm down , my roommates came in " D why are you crying ? " I don't know oh , I thought something bad has happened again, or maybe my HOD wanted to scold me and I was like
" if this people know how I torment myself and how disappointed I am in me , they won't bother "
When I met him he informed me that God spoke to him and he has decided to pay fees everything , my lecturers had informed him of my situation but my case was still better than some people's case , so I was shocked " why me ? For what reason ? " I forgot that I prayed on Sunday that this would happen and it's happening and I was thinking it would take a while for God to even answer my prayers
That wasn't all I got some extra money for provision and then food money for a month
Both from my lecturers and my HOD , I had already finished my tears for that week so I couldn't even cry, I just sat there looking, I was saying thank you
When I called dad he was shocked , he was even saying that I shouldn't worry he'll pay by month end coz the line was breaking and he was just hearing " fees , fees ,fees "
So he assumed they were disturbing me because of my fees , I had to send a text so he can understand me coz I couldn't keep the news for too long
He immediately called my HOD, told him thank you and blessed him
He had been running around to his friends and family and was even trying to sell his land to meet up , not to mention the debt he was already in ,I was happy that he could relax a little at least fees for this year , this last year was settled

I started believing that this was not a thing of luck nor was it just a coincidence
I started going to church , praying on my own
, Reading my Bible and following some online sermons ( Apostle Joshua Selman )
I leave it on speaker when I'm doing somethings
I just became mindful of everything I was saying or doing
I can confidently say that for this year I've achieved at least 3 of my biggest goals and I'm not going to take credit for it , I don't think I did it by myself
My friends became so supportive , always calling to know if I'm okay, dragging me out sometimes coz I hardly left my room , my dad calls now and then to give me advice and gist me , I think somebody told him that I was having some emotional crisis , because he calls more frequently than normal
I went closer to God and I feel much safer now
I know I still have alot of learning and growing to do and I still have flaws of my own
That doesn't mean I'm too new or unqualified to share my own story
I hope this helps someone have a little faith in God
He's always listening

Check out overcoming daily on YouTube , it really helped me

I fully understand and appreciate your post. However this isn't even the big one for me, it's just that it somewhat demonstrates the sort of response I may receive from JWs. But there are "bigger fish to fry"; one of which is Trinity.

You see I myself am no stranger to JWs. I'm a bit like cornelboy, except that I studied with JWs, attended kingdom halls, etc, and came out with a very diff result/understanding of JW doctrine....

Using the New World Translation of the scriptures, the kingdom interlinear of the Greek scriptures, and other JW tools, i will show VERY CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY the error of JW doctrine just as easily as I did here too! No John 1:1. No contentious scriptures. Just very obvious teaching from God's word. I'm just concerned that there may be responses like that of Janosky, with ppl going all out to defend their doctrine at all costs not minding if they're dishonest in doing so or not. At that time I'll tag you. Thank you.

MaxInDHouse:


In the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses not all of us are gifted as TEACHERS, some have the gift of SHEPHERDING, PROPHECY, APOSTLE! Ephesians 4:11
All males that stood firm in the organization we train them to become elders (mature members)
WHY? Because no idle worshiper will see God's Kingdom! We must all WORK (SLAVE) for our God, in fact that's what it means to SERVE JEHOVAH.
I remembered when i'm still a Muslim we use to say "nobody is SERVING God rather it's God that's SERVING us" because we believe it's someone doing us favour that's serving us and that's true so since we don't know in anyway we're doing anything for God we concluded we're not SERVING God.

But when i started studying with JWs i realized that serving God means rendering selfless services for the benefit of all in the congregation. So the GIFTS we have to serve in the congregations differs, that's why i told you to present your questions directly and quote/mention me. Let's see why over 8 million people globally believe that JW.org is the one and only group practicing what Jesus taught.

May you have PEACE!

Janosky I understand the urge to rush to defend your beliefs to show it's right. But really, you don't have to, especially when it can be obvious to neutrals that you had to switch up someone's words to do so. Sometimes just be humble and admit you do not know, nothing bad in that. The others kept quiet. You should have too

In 1st Corinthians 11, They were eating the Lord's supper improperly. Some were were drinking from the wine too much at that they were getting drunk:

NKJV 1Co 11:21: "²¹ For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk."

The reason anybody could become drunk from drinking it is that it remains the fruit of the vine. Yes it symbolizes the blood of Jesus, but you drink too much you become drunk because despite that it remains the fruit of vine! You claiming it is no more the "fruit of the vine" is just being plain dishonest. If it stopped being the fruit of the vine nobody will get drunk from it. It is wine. normal wine! It may symbolize something, but it remains normal wine! You can call it wine for that is what it is. At no point did it stop being wine! As a professing Christian, don't be dishonest

And it is wine Jesus said he won't drink of again until the kingdom comes, not "what this wine stands for". The "fruit of the vine" he won't drink, not "what the fruit of the vine is representing"

You claim to be Christian. Do not be dishonest with God's word

Everyone pls lemme demonstrate how to subtly twist scripture:

Janosky:




Luke 22:17-18 is the Lord's Supper Jesus ate with the disciples in symbol of his sacrificial death shortly thereafter.

It doesn't matter! Whether this was matters is that Jesus drank "the fruit of the vine"! Whether this was at the Lord's supper, at Pentecost, a wedding, anything! This, again doesn't matter! Because Jesus did not say "I won't drink of symbol of my blood again"; he said "I won't drink of the "fruit of the vine" again, regardless of what it symbolizes! Don't change Jesus words! He said he won't drink of the "fruit of the vine", not "my blood"!

Janosky:
Jesus bood is symbolized by the wine.
Is Jesus sacrificial blood the "fruit of the vine"?

No! Again, he didn't say "I won't drink of my sacrificial blood again"! He clearly said, his exact words, not changing a SINGLE WORD from anything he said, that what he won't drink again, is called the fruit of the vine! It is YOU who changed it to Jesus saying he won't drink of his own sacrificial blood! Pray tell, of what use is Jesus' own sacrificial blood to him himself?! It is useful for us humans, NOT FOR HIM! He won't drink his own sacrificial blood na! That's why he himself said he won't drink of the fruit of the vine! He didn't say he won't drink his sacrificial blood! The disciples need that sacrificial blood, NOT JESUS! In responding back, if you insist, pls tell us just why Jesus will drink his "sacrificial blood". Does he need ransom? From what exactly? Stop changing Jesus' words!

Ok. So you're implying Jesus will one day drink of his own sacrificial blood? Where? Why??

Janosky:
Their feeding with Jesus Christ @ Acts10:40-41 & Luke 24:40-43 ,had no ceremonial significance.

Yes na! That's because he DIDN'T SAY "I won't drink of the fruit of the vine in a ceremony! What he said is simple: "I won't drink of the fruit of the vine", it is you that added "in a ceremony" to his words to switch it up to fit your doctrine!

You see, this is the problem of JWs. Inability to just, in all honesty and humility, accept God's word for what it simply says! It must be changed to satisfy your own doctrine...

Somebody said he won't drink of the fruit of the vine again, you didn't like it and couldn't explain it, so you made him say (or rather said it for him) that he won't drink his own sacrificial blood again, not knowing he doesn't even have need for that in the first place! Not satisfied, you changed it up to make him say "it's only in a ceremony i won't drink of the fruit of the vine again, but normal normal I will". Why not just, in all simplicity and humility, accept the word of God as a child, taking it literally word for word, without feeling the need to add to it? And this is also why you threw away the passage in Colossians 1:13. It couldn't be bent to fit your theology

In all simplicity, accept that Jesus only said he won't drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes. He didn't make a mistake. He didn't say in a ceremony. Just take those words simple as he said them...

Jesus had NO NEED for his own sacrificial blood. He DID NOT drink of it at all either at the Lord's supper or anywhere else. He merely instituted it for his disciples. What he drank was NORMAL WINE; the "fruit of the vine" at the Jesus Jewish Passover where he instituted the Lord's supper for them!

Why not give a proper Bible response to me if you can? All my life I have never seen a proper response from JWs to me! And you proved it again today like the others to who just ignored my post like it didn't exist!

Again JW organization is steep in error. Doctrine with no Bible basis. Beliefs that cannot be proven when one with proper Bible knowledge asks. Prove me wrong today. Actually give a proper response let's see!

Janosky:

Pls exercise your right to deceive yourself.
No wahala.