5. It is not so amazing at all that other Catholic websites conspicuously refer to Mary in these appellations as well as others akin thereto that establish the same idea. For instance, in the Litany of the Holy Name of Mary, we find the following:

Mary, glory of Jerusalem
Mary, joy of Israel

Now, besides those just listed above, she is also called the following in that same Litany:

Mary, our light
Mary, our sure rest
Mary, our hope

This is why pilgrim.1 continues to ask Catholics to simply let us know WHY they have taken the divine titles of God and ascribed them to MARY!  Please see two examples of the Catholic websites that have the Litany of the Holy Name of Mary, so you can confirm these things for yourself:

(http://www.catholictradition.org/Litanies/litany43.htm)
(http://www.memorare.com/mary/litholyname.html)

And just in case you might be wondering about the appellations above ascribed to Mary, our readers should be informed that those titles rightly belong to the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. See the following:

* Our LIGHT

"The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?
the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
- - - [Psalm 27:1]

"The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness
shall the moon give light unto thee:
but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light,
and thy God thy glory." - - - [Isaiah 60:19]

- - - - - - -

* Our HOPE

"To whom God would make known what is
the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."  - - [Col. 1:27]

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment
of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope."
- - [1 Tim. 1:1]

"Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead,
and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."
- - [1 Pet. 1:21]

- - - - - - -

* The Glory of JERUSALEM

"And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying,
Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for
the multitude of men and cattle therein:
For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about,
and will be the glory in the midst of her." - - - [Zechariah 2:4 & 5]



This is why I am still asking just ONE basic question here:  WHY has the Roman Catholic Church taken the divine titles of God and ascribed them to Mary?

@tomX:

Lets stop stirring up unneccesary controversy in a vain and self-righteous attempt to be seen as Holy.

@tomx,

Now, my dear tomx, what you should have done was simple be objective and find out if NO CATHOLIC at all had the original Litany of Loreto containing the appellation to Mary as "Glory of Israel". Did you do that? I suppose not - and I sympathise with you on that (afterall, so many people make narrow presumptions).

Thereto, my observation is that if anyone was being vain and self-righteous in attempts to be seen as "holy", your Catholic brethren who have their stews confused are the ones you should be sobbing to. It is quite unfortunate that you guys do not have acts together before putting your confusion on the internet (in worse case scenarios, I observe that some of the Catholic weblinks have been taken down, are no longer active, or the articles in some others have been edited and certain words changed). In any case, please take your worries to the Vatican and complain to them about the seeming confusion that some of you have simply not been updated on.

What I'd ask you to do for the moment is simply go back and compare the Litanies you posted with those in the other authentic CATHOLIC websites and see the difference. Point made, indeed Catholics have referred to Mary as the "Glory of Israel" - and my questions still remain:

#1. Who is the "Glory of Israel" - is it MARY. . or is it GOD?

#2. Has MARY become "your GOD" (Isaiah 60:9) that she should be called the "Glory of Israel"?!?

Do you care to help us with seasoned answers to these questions?

Thank you again.

Blessings.

ROFL. . .as orobo 50cl dey talk (but me kon remix am) pilgrim na Jesus winch

see as she take dey tear thia yansh. . .make ebos and co. dem dey wear pampers for idi. . .kai!

@Wordsmith,

How body?

Lol. . . I don tell them tire - make them go read their Vatican archives and see wetin the Bishops and Popes talk about MARY - dem no go hear!!

Those who are reasonable have actually faced up to these issues and they are finding faith in Jesus Christ.

Me, I don tire to dey serve them the small feeding bottle. Soon I go post the blasphemies of the recent Popes and Bishops - make Catholics see wetin Vatican turn Mary into, wey many of them dey follow gullibly!!

Anyhow, enjoy!

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,

as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen.

@Pilgrim and others
I will remind you of the three i s of your criticism (Ignorance,Irrationalism,Intellectual indolence)
When Mary is called Glory of Isreal,, jerusalem and you wan quench over it,
You fail to see that all ppl of God (especially jews who lived faithfully) qualify for these titles by the merit of their sonship with God.
Mary as a daughter of zion who lived a live that God is proud of is 'Glory of Isreal',like esther,Elizabeth and others.
I have heard many xtians called 'son of God',are these ppl claiming to be Jesus?No
Many penticos call their pastor's wife 'Mother in Isreal','my spiritual Mother' etc
The point here is that these phrases have their meanings in the context they are used.
The day a pentico friend gave me the Queen of heaven arguement(Jer),I realised that these ppl seem to think through the anus.My answer to him was 'Who is the king of heaven?'.His answer 'Jesus'.I asked again
"in Jesus' heavenly kingdom who is the Queen,
the demon"?He went dumb.I am still waiting for the answer for years now.Probably Pilgrim or anyone can still rescue penticos with the right answer.

Is it not irrational to equate Mary,Queen of Heaven with the ref in Jeremiah.

alliednetw:

The day a pentico friend gave me the Queen of heaven arguement(Jer),I realised that these people seem to think through the anus.My answer to him was 'Who is the king of heaven?'.His answer 'Jesus'.I asked again
"in Jesus' heavenly kingdom who is the Queen,
the demon"?He went dumb.I am still waiting for the answer for years now.Probably Pilgrim or anyone can still rescue penticos with the right answer.

no offence, but that analogy was dumb. if that be the case, then we can say the same for the title "Son of God". Since Jesus is referred to as the "Son of God", then shouldn't logic tell you God had a wife and Mary is his wife? See what i'm driving at? Now, go over to that statement you made and see the flaw in that statement.

To alliednetw,

If Mary is the Queen of Heaven, i think the position of the King of Heaven should automatically be transferred to Joseph her hubby! No be so?

@pilgrim.1,

I stumbled into this forum while doing a Google search on 'bishop ordains 4 men excommunicated' (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bishop+ordains+4+men+excommunicated+) and it was your username that drew me here! I was fuming initially, because I'd thought you were the very same person as another blogger "Pilgrim" on another site (http://www.medjugorjegallery..com/) who posted beautiful pictures as a Caholic, but that you were posing here as anti-Catholic! I would have deeply regretted calling you a hypocrite!


Not being someone to immediately vent my steam, I calmly went through some of your posts, looking for serious flaws. But I gave up after a few, because the more I read, the more your well-articulated arguments were destroying the foundation of my Catholic beliefs! I returned to find your interesting post on 'grace'. Worst of all, your calm reaction to the caustic vitriols you've endured from catholics on this site is amazing. Are you even a human being?

I just thought to let you know that you helped me leave the Catholic church. I regret nothing, except that it took me this long to realize the truth. I haven't decided yet what church to go to; but will still be searching. I''ve tried contacting you by email, because I've loads of questions that you could help me understand from the Bible. (Actually after having tried several times to email you, it seems you didn't really want to reply - perhaps because I was rude? Please forgive me - I was initially really mad at you for telling the truth). I know that you have a lot so much on your hands, but I'd be glad to read some reply from you (look for 'RB Bren').


Oh, by the way, I'm also interested in environmental issues, and you won't believe that one of the websites I visit has a reactor that bears your username 'Pilgrim 1' (http://www.nrc.gov/info-finder/reactor/pilg.html) I was going to tease if you're a "boiling reactor", judging from the way you floored another forumite TV01 on the tithes debates! (I hope you won't 'boil over' with my sometimes 'annoying' questions - but at least, you'd have to remember that you shattered my catholic beliefs and I'm still trying to find my way around).

More of your interesting posts. Keep up the good work.
RB

I'd want to say a few words to Catholics. Your counter-arguments so far are hilarious. Rather than open the same Bible that the Catholic Church has boasted of canonizing, you've been offering excuses for the well articulated exposés that you read from pilgrim.1. Sad, but that is usually how far removed Catholics are from reality. I know - because I've been there once.


There are questions she had asked repeatedly. The one that I've been hoping that any sound Catholic apologist would deal with is this: "Why has the Catholic Church taken the divine titles of God and ascribed them to MARY?"

It is not a question that should solicit lame excuses. There are a few things we need to realize in that loaded question:

1. Is it true that Mary is called those titles that Pilgrim.1 has highlighted? If it is not true, then Catholics should state it so, and then show us with proof that Mary has not been called such. But what we see is a serious laugh, because even though someone tried to deny it, I held my breathe to see how she picked you apart cell by cell and made nonsense of that cover-face!

2. WHY then has the Catholic Church given those divine titles to MARY? I'm not sure that any Catholic has offered an answer to that question (which was one of the reasons forcing me to make this post). I don't even have an answer to that; and yet, we cannot deny that this is what the Catholic Church has done! Especially because she continues to ask if MARY has become our "God" to have merited such divine titles - quoting Isaiah 60:19. Nobody has explained to her the real meaning of what is meant by Mary being the "Glory of Israel", and even though I checked with the lame excuse that our Bishops have given for that, we have to come round the fact that Catholic scholars know that divine title is meant for none other than Jesus Christ.

3. What about the SKULL worship in the Catholic tradition? What answers have we given to the articulate response she made? Is that a false, ill-informed and non-existent practice in the RCC? Or is it a fact - as she has taken the time to show in her responses?
We should stop fooling ourselves here. Pilgrim knows what she's talking about (one could almost mistake her as a former Catholic - seeing that she has such deep knowledge about our own tradition, and yet so many of us have absolutely no clues as to what we think we know). We only tend to follow the Popes blindly, and if anyone is going to share truth with us, we attack her to our own detriment.

I know that many times we seem to struggle with these issues. But, like the Bible says, he that has an ear, let him (or her) hear.

RB.

I ask forgiveness for all who offend our blessed Mother and our Lord on this thread and other places.

"Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do, "

I pray the Lord's mercy will save before his justice chastises, amen.


By the way, @cgift

HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you (Exodus 20:12) is the first commandment with a promise from God himself!!- you see how he himself values the paternal and maternal relationship?

That's preposterous and overtly delusional!I guess when your mother dies, you will make her statues all over the place and start bowing down to it! I guess that's what you call honour!


I actually lifted the Exodus quote from Ephesians 6:2. Thats where its stated that the commandment is the first one with a promise from God himself. Amazing how you can think Ephesians 6:2 is preposterous and overtly delusional!!

Thank God you stopped at honour, what of obey? Gozizi, let me ask you two kweshuns (according to pilgrim.1).


Will you obey your mother if she tells you to go and do something you know is evil? Answer me with all honesty.
Will you obey your priest/bishop if he/she tells you to go and do something you know is evil? Answer me with all honesty.

Our Blessed Mother has asked only one thing of us - ", Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you"

Hello my fellow Catholic brethren,

I want to tell you to be very careful.
My instinct tells me that B.rent and Lawyer and many more others who may claim that Pilgrim.1 and Cgift post in this thread have made them to change their view about catholics should be watched. (It's very hard to convert Catholics to any protestant church)

I think they are all fakes, they are working hand in hand with pilgrim.1 and cgift.

Today's Saint

St. Teresa of Avila (1515-1582)

Teresa lived in an age of exploration as well as political, social and religious upheaval. It was the 16th century, a time of turmoil and reform. Her life began with the culmination of the Protestant Reformation, and ended shortly after the Council of Trent.

The gift of God to Teresa in and through which she became holy and left her mark on the Church and the world is threefold: She was a woman; she was a contemplative; she was an active reformer.

As a woman, Teresa stood on her own two feet, even in the man's world of her time. She was "her own woman," entering the Carmelites despite strong opposition from her father. She is a person wrapped not so much in silence as in mystery. Beautiful, talented, outgoing, adaptable, affectionate, courageous, enthusiastic, she was totally human. Like Jesus, she was a mystery of paradoxes: wise, yet practical; intelligent, yet much in tune with her experience; a mystic, yet an energetic reformer. A holy woman, a womanly woman.

Teresa was a woman "for God," a woman of prayer, discipline and compassion. Her heart belonged to God. Her own conversion was no overnight affair; it was an arduous lifelong struggle, involving ongoing purification and suffering. She was misunderstood, misjudged, opposed in her efforts at reform. Yet she struggled on, courageous and faithful; she struggled with her own mediocrity, her illness, her opposition. And in the midst of all this she clung to God in life and in prayer. Her writings on prayer and contemplation are drawn from her experience: powerful, practical and graceful. A woman of prayer; a woman for God.

Teresa was a woman "for others." Though a contemplative, she spent much of her time and energy seeking to reform herself and the Carmelites, to lead them back to the full observance of the primitive Rule. She founded over a half-dozen new monasteries. She traveled, wrote, fought—always to renew, to reform. In her self, in her prayer, in her life, in her efforts to reform, in all the people she touched, she was a woman for others, a woman who inspired and gave life.

In 1970 the Church gave her the title she had long held in the popular mind: Doctor of the Church. She and St. Catherine of Siena were the first women so honored.

Quote

Teresa knew well the continued presence and value of suffering (physical illness, opposition to reform, difficulties in prayer), but she grew to be able to embrace suffering, even desire it: "Lord, either to suffer or to die." Toward the end of her life she exclaimed: "Oh, my Lord! How true it is that whoever works for you is paid in troubles! And what a precious price to those who love you if we understand its value."

Carlosein I'm very grateful to God that your request has been granted thru d intercession of our mother Mary.
(We go celebrate am o)

Jesus, you are the risen Lord, exalted in glory! In you, we too are raised up! In you, we too share in eternal life!
Holy Spirit, open our mind to the mystery of the Father's plan; help us to understand that we have been called to belong to Jesus Christ. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, who has saved us and given us new life." Amen

Mary, mother of Christ, teach us to pray your rosary as it should be prayed. For these ordinary beads strung on threads, hold within themselves all the mysteries of our holy faith and all the main ways of prayer. Mary, Queen of the Rosary, open to us its holy secrets. Let it be our door to the heart of your Son, his Father, and the Holy Spirit. AMEN (Catherine Doherty)

It is Mary's practice to favor those who long to be protected by her. (St. Teresa of Avila)

My Dear Catholic Brethren,

Its almost impossible to share the faith without disturbance. I am compiling catholic resources for a new thread so we can all go there for references. We have shared so much here but sincere catholic viewers are assaulted at every turn.  

I ask that debaters remain on this thread so that they keep the arguments at their preferred tempo.

I will post extensive information on the new thread. There will be no need for replies. In fact, replies can come only after the first couple of pages, so that by the time a viewer accesses the thread, he or she can have their fill of spiritually uplifting  material before coming across the OTHER stuff. Then, they can either decide to go no further, or engage in idle banter. Either way, it'll be a choice made.

We'll keep this thread active for discussions though. Keep the faith.

Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary!!! . If u dont like this, abeg REPORT ME TO JESUS

I ask forgiveness for all who offend our blessed Mother and our Lord on this thread and other places.

"Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do, "

I pray the Lord's mercy will save before his justice chastises, amen.

@Gozizi
I say a very big AMEN!!!!

@gozizi,

How are you today?

Let me ask you a few kweshuns about something you screamed in bold:

gozizi:


Our Blessed Mother has asked only one thing of us - ", Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you"

Right then. Here are a few posers:

* 1. Did Jesus "tell you" to make statues of Mary to bow down to?

* 2. Did Jesus "tell you" to PRAY TO Mary?

* 3. Did Jesus "tell you" to put all your hopes and trust in MARY?

* 4. Did Jesus "tell you" to call Mary the "glory of Israel"?

I dey wait. Thank you plenty.

b.rent:

@pilgrim.1,

. . . I''ve tried contacting you by email, because I've loads of questions that you could help me understand from the Bible. (Actually after having tried several times to email you, it seems you didn't really want to reply - perhaps because I was rude? Please forgive me - I was initially really mad at you for telling the truth). I know that you have a lot so much on your hands, but I'd be glad to read some reply from you (look for 'RB Bren').

@b.rent,

Thank you for emailing me - I've seen your mail, but it hasn't been easy to find the time to reply every single one of the over 135 mails which keep pouring into my mail box. Your questions are appreciated, and I don't mind however you presented them, lol. Presently, my week is jammed with a lot of stuff on my schedule until the end of the month; but inbetween breaks, you'll read from me.

Meanwhile, I'm glad to read that our posts have helped you to come round the hard facts of what Catholicism is all about. Many people happily come to a genuine faith in Jesus Christ; others are slow to realize them; and yet a few others get really upset and swear to never read anything "pilgrim.1, cgift, or any other animal" (actual words) post on the Forum! I thank them all - and God gets the praise!

Please keep sending in those questions by email - I'm taking my time to gather concise answers that would be of benefit to several others who are asking the same thing. Infact, even within very tight schedules, I had to again squeeze out time to deal with the issue of Mary being called "the Glory of Israel" - that is one question that keeps recurring, and will soon be addressed.

I hope and pray that your search for the truth of Jesus Christ will be satisfied soon enough - and that God will keep you forever out of the "Vatican magic". As I used to say, it's all a matter of time.

Cheers and many blessings.

Oby1:

Hello my fellow Catholic brethren,

I want to tell you to be very careful.
My instinct tells me that B.rent and Lawyer and many more others who may claim that Pilgrim.1 and Cgift post in this thread have made them to change their view about catholics should be watched. (It's very hard to convert Catholics to any protestant church)

I think they are all fakes, they are working hand in hand with pilgrim.1 and cgift.

My dear Oby1,

Isn't it funny that even when truth stares you hard in the face, you would still go on bliding yourself to reality? I'm actuallu not surprised - Catholics are well-galvanized with the hard gloss Vatican heresies; and it would have been such a surprise indeed if I had seen you acknowledge simple truths at any instance.

Not only have you alleged that I and cgift have designed websites against the Catholic Church (a completely false claim), you seem to be chocking so hard on your tears that your reason seems to be taking an overdue vacation. For crying out loud, just HOW could lawyer, b.rent and several others be working in league with pilgrim.1?!? Could you please explain your confusion to your readers? Even when you may have a problem with the new entrant (b.rent), how could you suppose that after all the debates between myself and lawyer in particular, the latter would have been working in league with me and pretending all this while to have been a "Catholic"? How did you manage to weave this fantastic theory? Or is that some huge token that manifests your defeatist mentality?

Please my dear Oby1, I'd like you to know that there are many Catholics far more intelligent than the class of folks I dialogue with on this Forum. You may analyse and pump out a theory on them; but they're not that daft! I've gained from the friendship of some of them, so much so that most of the things I hiterto did not know about Catholicism - they have shared intelligently with me. Oh, I'm not forgetting that quite a handful of them are barely schooled enough to even think for themselves!

All the same, stand by the sidelines and keep sobbing with your fantastic theories! More Catholics are leaving Catholicism and finding saving faith in Christ, and there really is nothing you can do about it. It may please you to keep drinking from the false cesspool of the Vatican, but the day God Himself go touch you where it matters, you eye go open pass this choking exercise you're vomitting here.

For now, stay blessed, stay wrapped up and don't fall outa your chair as you read more of pilgrim.1's posts, you hear?

Shalom.

Hallo @alliednetw,

alliednetw:

@Pilgrim and others
I will remind you of the three i s of your criticism (Ignorance,Irrationalism,Intellectual indolence)

I saw your initial caterwauls earlier (here), but chose to leave you on the 'iggy' botton for a while as you didn't sound like a serious debator. It's not my style to waste breath on unsolicited bloviates of Catholic lay-readers - obviously, not even a handful of you guys have any clues about your tumefied rituals spewing out from the Vatican. But hilarious as you sounded, I'd wanted to let you have enough time to gather your thoughts and grow up. Evidently, you're a newbie to the debate and have no clues how to handle issues with pilgrim.1. Granted, so many people start off with rants of alleging others are 'ignorant, irrational, and intellectually indolent'; but such yowls are only indicative of the fact you've had nothing tangible to offer as alternative.

This is what I'd rather do: reply your snorts, and then come back to deal with this same subject in detail.

alliednetw:

Mary as a daughter of zion who lived a live that God is proud of is 'Glory of Isreal',like esther,Elizabeth and others.

Have you carefully examined the fact that neither Esther, Elizabeth, nor any canonized "saints" of the RCC is ever referred to by that title? Abi you wan overthrow the whole of Roman Catholcism and form you own "Bull" on the subject?   My dear, just relax. . . because not even the Vatican is aware of your own strain of 'classic' apologetics; otherwise, we would have read where the Vatican referred to St. Faustina or Lucia as "glory of Israel".

alliednetw:

I have heard many xtians called 'son of God',are these people claiming to be Jesus?No

Glad to know that even you could not be so dumb. Indeed, Scripture teaches that those who receive Jesus Christ and believe on Him are known as the sons of God (John 1:12); but that doesn't make them "the only begotten Son" (John 1:18 & 3:16). I've often pointed out that there is only One Person in Scripture who is known as the "only begotten" Son, for the Greek term used there (μονογενής - monogenēs) demonstrates that!

alliednetw:

Many penticos call their pastor's wife 'Mother in Isreal','my spiritual Mother' etc.
The point here is that these phrases have their meanings in the context they are used.

I can assure you that anyone from any branch of Christianity who claims a roguish "context" to ascribe divine titles to Mary or any pastor's wife is only drinking from the same cesspool of the Vatican.

alliednetw:

The day a pentico friend gave me the Queen of heaven arguement(Jer),I realised that these people seem to think through the anus.My answer to him was 'Who is the king of heaven?'.His answer 'Jesus'.I asked again
"in Jesus' heavenly kingdom who is the Queen,
the demon"?He went dumb.

I wish I could say this very kindly - but your 'friend' was quite dumb to not have realized that in a Kingdom, you cannot have both a "King" and "Queen" reigning at the same time! I know - it's only human minds working overtime that suppose it is necessary to have a "Queen" in heaven just because there is a "King of heaven" (Dan. 4:37)! You're sounding here more like a 'yin-yang' theorist than seeking to answer straightforward queries. You failed to realize that the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the "King of heaven" is DEITY (John 1:1); and in order to speak of a "Queen of heaven", such a being would have to be essentially the same "DEITY" as the King Himself (?!?)!

But is Mary "deity"? And since she is not, whence then did you guys get this roguish appellation you have ascribed to her, under the excuse that you're "honouring" Mary?

alliednetw:

I am still waiting for the answer for years now.Probably Pilgrim or anyone can still rescue penticos with the right answer.

Rescue who - your dumb friend? Sorry, pilgrim.1 is too busy to waste breath on unsolicited bloviates. If anything, you should patiently wait for my rejoinder addressing this subject in some depth.

alliednetw:

Is it not irrational to equate Mary,Queen of Heaven with the ref in Jeremiah.

Ahh, perhaps you have a point there. It seems irrational indeed to equate Mary to any so-called "Queen of heaven", in as much as God has made plain in Jeremiah that any reference to anyone being addressed as such is a travesty of His glory! Please if you have any Biblical reference to Mary being addressed as such by anyone, could you kindly post it for our mutual benefit? And if no such references exist in God's WORD, what's the next skit you've for us?

All the same cheerio, and enjoy the days ahead!

Now, for the sake of the many who email me on this particular subject, I'll take my time to address it in detail here in 5 sub-titles, covering all the queries as much as I possibly could - especially considering Catholic sources as well. (For those who haven't read from me, I again plead with you to be patient - as combining work and other things with replying the tons of emails is not quite an easy world for a 'lady') .

Let me quote alliednetw again as a starting point:

alliednetw:

When Mary is called Glory of Isreal,, jerusalem and you wan quench over it,
You fail to see that all people of God (especially jews who lived faithfully) qualify for these titles by the merit of their sonship with God.

Only heaven knows where you got that hilarious cacophony from!   You obviously must've dreamed lazily on this while blinding yourself to the plain truth of God's WORD. Perhaps, you could have made a point IF and only IF you had walked me through Scripture to show where at any stretch of imagination you found that "ALL the people of God" are called "these titles" by any so-called merit (nevermind that you could NOT have read my previous entries on the subject before making such assumptions).

By way of a reminder, here are reasons already outlined as to why your fallacy fails to hold substance here:


1. The 'Glory of Israel' is a DIVINE title.

Although I've previously made this point clear, the appellation of "Glory of Israel" is a divine title, and as such is used in Scripture for God and none else. If you're aware of anyone else besides God who was categorically called the "Glory of Israel" in Scripture, please let us know.

However, you should note in the first place that, Roman CATHOLIC scholars themselves undebatably agree that "Glory of Israel" is a divine title. For instance, Fr. René Laurentin (a leading Catholic authority in Marian studies, and theological consultant at Vatican II) made this interesting remark (emphasis mine):

[center][list]

"As Jesus enters the Temple Simeon greets him as 'the glory of Israel' (Luke 2:32). This is a DIVINE title."

[/list][/center]
[center][list][Source: René Laurentin, A Short Treatise on the Virgin Mary (Washington, New Jersey: AMI Press, 1991), pp.27-30.][/list][/center]

Secondly, that the Vatican concedes to the above is underscored by the fact  that Pope John Paul II in some of his Homilies spoke of 'the Glory of Israel' as pointing to the Lord Jesus Christ rather than to Mary. For instance, in his 'Eucharistic Celebration on the Feast of Presentation' (Sunday, 2 February 1997, also posted on an official Vatican website), the Pope is reputed to have said (emphasis mine):

[center][list]

'In that 40-day-old infant it sees the “light” destined to illumine the nations, and presents HIM as the “glory” of the people of Israel (cf. Lk 2:32). It is HIM who must conquer death, as the Letter to the Hebrews proclaims, explaining the mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption: “Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature” (Heb 2:14), having taken on human nature.'

[/list][/center]

Now, one must wonder that Pope John Paul II on the one hand categorically admits that the divine title belongs to Jesus Christ; yet, he does not explain WHY or HOW that same title should have been copped out for Mary by the RCC!

Continuing. . .

2. Catholic Interpretations of LUKE 2:32 for the Divine Title 'Glory of Israel'.

In addition to the two examples just cited (as a way of reminding you of what I've already dealt with), I'd like to help you even further with recent confirmations to the point, that the Vatican authorities certainly know that the title of "Glory of Israel" belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ, and they cannot deny this otherwise. Already, we noted that this appellation is a "divine title", as affirmed by the Marian Catholic scholar Fr. René Laurentin.

In several of the Homilies of Pope John Paull II, we read affirmations that the divine title "Glory of Israel" is used in Scripture in reference to Jesus Christ. Quoting from another one of his Homilies, "The Feast of the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple" (Saturday, 1 February 2003):

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The Holy Spirit opens the eyes of faith of the elderly Simeon who comes near, and, taking the Child in his arms, recognizes in him the Messiah and praises God (cf. Lk 2,25-32). This Child, he prophesies, will be "a light for the Gentiles, the glory of Israel" (cf. v. 32), but also a sign of contradiction (cf. v. 34) because according to the Scriptures he will realize the judgement of God.

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Here is yet another example from the Homily of Pope Benedict XVI on 'The Solemnity of the Epiphany' [Vatican Basilica Friday, 6 January 2006] (emphasis mine):

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"At a superficial glance, God's faithfulness to Israel and his manifestation to the peoples could seem divergent aspects; they are actually two sides of the same coin. In fact, according to the Scriptures, it is precisely by remaining faithful to his Covenant of love with the people of Israel that God also reveals his glory to other peoples. Grace and fidelity (cf. Ps 89[88]: 2), "mercy and truth" (cf. Ps 85[84]: 11), are the content of God's glory, they are his "name", destined to be known and sanctified by people of every language and nation.

However, this "content" is inseparable from the "method" that God chose to reveal himself, that is, absolute fidelity to the Covenant that reaches its culmination in Christ. The Lord Jesus, at the same time and inseparably, is "a light revealing to the Gentiles the glory of your people Israel" (Lk 2: 32), as the elderly Simeon was to exclaim, inspired by God, taking the Child in his arms when his parents presented him at the temple. The light that enlightens the peoples - the light of the Epiphany - shines out from the glory of Israel - the glory of the Messiah born, in accordance with the Scriptures, in Bethlehem, "the city of David" (cf. Lk 2: 4)."

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I've included the lengthy quote so readers can see for themselves that they are not taken out of context. But the facts revealed here are that Pope Benedict XVI makes clear that the words revealing God's glory to other people 'are His name' - cleverly admitting simply that Jesus the Messiah is indeed the Glory of Israel! Two remarkable things in the quote above to note: (i) Pope Benedict XVI acknowledges the fact of this statement is "in accordance with the Scriptures"; and (ii) he does NOT pretend to make Luke 2:32 or Luke 2:4 a matter of interpretation for MARY - we all know that if he did so, he would simply be exemplifying the duplicity of the Vatican!

If words can be any clearer, then the next few paragraphs of the Homily just cited above says the following:

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"The Magi worshipped a simple Child in the arms of his Mother Mary, because in him they recognized the source of the twofold light that had guided them: the light of the star and the light of the Scriptures. In HIM they recognized the King of the Jews, the glory of Israel, but also the King of all the peoples."

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I'd just say that, although Pope Benedict XVI mentioned Mary in his Homily, he did not ascribe the divine title of "Glory of Israel" to her, but rather affirmed that the title was pointing to "HIM" - none else than the Lord Jesus Christ.

Continuing. . .

3. More Catholic Interpretations of LUKE 2:32 for the Divine Title 'Glory of Israel'.

Further to the foregoing, we observe that numerous other CATHOLIC sources give the same pointer as to Jesus being "the Glory of Israel". A few of such:

I wish to remind Catholics of what is written in their Catechism. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church #529, we find the following:

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Jesus is recognized as the long-expected Messiah, the "light to the nations" and the "glory of Israel", but also "a sign that is spoken against".

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A simplified version of that Catechism as proffered by another online Catholic resource, [url=http://www.catholicity.com/catechism/jesus'_infancy_and_hidden_life.html]CatholiCity[/url] puts it this way: 'His "encounter" (the name used in Byzantine tradition) with Simeon and Anna symbolizes the recognition of Jesus as "light of the nations" and "the glory of Israel."'

Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa OFM Cap, the preacher to the papal household (or commonly, 'preacher of the Pontifical Household') is a well-known Catholic figure. In one of his books, "The Mystery of Christmas" (quoted on The Association of Hebrew Catholics website¹), he states the following:

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"The words of the Nunc Dimittis, as well as throwing light on the present problem of the relationship between the Church and non-Christian religions, also throws light on the problem of the relationship between the Church and the people of Israel, between Christians and Hebrews. If Christ is ‘the glory of his people, Israel’, we Christians must do all we can, first of all to acknowledge this ourselves and then to remove the obstacles that prevent Israel from acknowledging it."

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[¹It is important to mention here that the Association of Hebrew Catholics has the Papal blessing the Papal blessing of Pope John Paul II.]

The huge import in Fr. Raniero's article is that there are indeed 'obstacles' that are preventing Israel from acknowledging that Christ indeed is "the glory of His people, Israel" - and one of those obstacles, at least to me, is clearly the fact that the Catholic Church has taken the divine titles that belong to Him and ascribed them to Mary!

4. Whence did the Vatican derive the 'Glory of Israel' for MARY?.

Truth be told, the RCC has no Scriptural basis for ascribing that title to Mary - not one shred of evidence in God's WORD presumes Mary to be the "Glory of Israel". We have seen so far the following:
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* the "glory of Israel" is a divine title
* that divine title properly belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ
* Catholic authorities recognize the above facts as the proper meaning of Luke 2:32[/list]

Of course, we also recognize that Roman Catholicism rejects the Sola Scriptura principle, and therefore must necessarily ferret their ideas from the weathered traditions of confused religious minds. It is therefore not surprising that the opinions of Catholic apologists on this subject are as varied and blistered as ever. What is remarkable is that not in one single instance (at least not to my knowledge) did these Catholic apologists demonstrate clearly from Scripture that Mary is in anywise the "Glory of Israel". Other than forgery of ideas and fantastic prevarications to pepper the notion, those who have attempted explications thereto have cleverly ignored the Vatican interpretation of Luke 2:32! It would indeed be a monstrous duplicity to hold contradictory ideas on just that one verse as to claim it for Jesus and Mary at the same time - so these chaps employ story-telling to fill the gap!

I'll simply pass over the noise of these discordant Catholic apologists and instead focus on just one celebrated premise which the RCC consoles her veneration of Mary with that title. Again quoting from a General Audience address of Pope John II (Wednesday, 29 August 2001):

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"Some of the expressions of the book of Judith will pass, more or less integrally into Christian tradition which sees in the Jewish heroine a prefiguration of Mary. Do we not hear an echo of the words of Judith, when Mary sings in the Magnificat: "He has put down the mighty from their thrones and has raised up the humble" (Lk 1,52). One can understand why the liturgical tradition common to Christians of the East and of the West loves to ascribe to Mary the Mother of Jesus, the praise given to Judith: "you are the exaltation of Jerusalem, you are the great glory of Israel, you are the great pride of our nation" (Jdt 15,9)."

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A few things to note in the quote above:

(a) Judith belongs to the set of books known as the Apocrypha, and does not rank among those recognized as the canon of Scripture even among the Jewish people. This is an important point to make, because even in Scripture we find that unto the Jews were committed "the oracles of God" (Rom. 3:1-3). If anyone should know what books have the distinctives of 'inspired Scripture', the Jews should have been in such a position. For all practical purposes, they did not recognize the Apocrypha as Scripture.

(b) We've seen some of the numerous confirmations of Catholic interpretation for Luke 2:32 affirming that the "Glory of Israel" refers always to the Lord Jesus Christ. Not in one instance to my knowledge have the Popes or Bishops ascribed the words of that verse to Mary; and any Catholic trying to do so at this late hour would either be ignorant or specially endured with duplicity.

(c) Every serious Jew knew well enough that none other than God (not even Judith) was referred to at any time as "the Glory of Israel" (let alone "the great glory of Israel". That appellation is a divine title, and even Roman Catholic authorities and scholars cannot deny the fact. Jews who understood the divine purpose of God, knew and recognized HIM alone as worthy of being called "the Glory of Israel" (which I'd be consequently showing again). Especially confirming the point is the fact that God declared these words through a Jewish prophet: "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I NOT give to another, neither my praise to graven images." (Isaiah 42:8). It is foolhardy for anyone to read such prophecies and still go on to ascribe God's glory to a mere creature!

There's just no basis for the RCC notion of calling Mary the "Glory of Israel".

5. God ALONE is the Glory of His people.

In Scripture, there is none else than God Himself who is referred to as 'the GLORY of Israel'. This is clear in all the verses already cited for this, and we shall only have to remind ourselves here of a few:

A (1 Samuel 15:29, ESV)
"And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret,
for HE is not a man, that HE should have regret."

B (Isaiah 60:19, ESV)
"The sun shall be no more your light by day,
nor for brightness shall the moon give you light;
but the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and YOUR GOD will be your glory."

C (Zechariah 2:5, KJV)
"For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire
round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her."

The above categorically demonstrate the fact that God Himself is the Glory of His people Israel. The saints of the OT recognized none else but the LORD as their glory - which the devout Simeon uttered by inspiration in his recognition in Luke 2:32 as pointing to Jesus Christ.


In closing, I'd again ask these questions:

#1. Who is the "Glory of Israel" - is it MARY. . or is it GOD?

#2. Has MARY become "YOUR GOD. " (Isaiah 60:9) that she should be called the "Glory of Israel"?!?

Answers, please?

Shalom.

My dear Oby1,

I just received an email from b.rent a few minutes ago, and would like to post in part. (We're not allowed to access office PCs for personal emails, but I retrieved it by quickly plugging my laptop into a modem, so I could quickly post it).

Dear [dexed]

Well, at last you replied! Thank you.

# - # - #

But I'm a bit concerned the way you replied Oby1 there. Although you're sharing serious truths that no Catholic has been able to soundly refute, it really matters the way you share them. I have been rude to you a couple of times, and I deeply appreciate the way you responded in grace. Please keep it up, and don't scare some of us away (remember the "Pilgrim reactor" I mentioned earlier? ).

I'm still enjoying your very good responses - detailed, hard-hitting, indepth, analytical, and all else. But please keep enduring the unpalatable remarks that people express towards you, as you've done before. I think you should apologise to Oby1. I've been reading most of her inputs; and even though I now seriously disagree with her, she strikes me like a friendly person.

# - # - #

RB.

Well, I suppose he was referring to my response to you earlier here: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-75506.832.html#msg1586357). I've assured him that I don't go out of my way to be crude to people, and in fulfilling my promise to him, I write to apologise to you in the manner I addressed you. I regret the attitude, and hope that you would not be greatly put off.


One more thing: he wants you to know that he was not a "fake" Catholic. That's as much as I can state here, and hope that he would come back and explain that himself.

Cheers, and many blessings.

---

* The "[dexed]" has been substituted for my name in his email, and the "# - # - #" are parts of his mail which I consider personal to post in a public Forum.

Holy Spirit enlighten the darkness of our intellects by your power so that we may recognize the gospel for what it truly is. We pray that our faith in Christ may grow ever stronger and more perfect. AMEN

Fear nothing; you shall be my true daughter and i will always be your good mother. OUR LADY TO ST. MARGARET MARY ALACOQUE.

Today's Saint 16/10/07

St. Marguerite d’Youville (1701-1771)


We learn compassion from allowing our lives to be influenced by compassionate people, by seeing life from their perspective and reconsidering our own values.

Born in Varennes, Canada, Marie Marguerite Dufrost de Lajemmerais had to interrupt her schooling at the age of 12 to help her widowed mother. Eight years later she married Francois d'Youville; they had six children, four of whom died young. Despite the fact that her husband gambled, sold liquor illegally to Native Americans and treated her indifferently, she cared for him compassionately in the two years before his death in 1730.

Even though she was caring for two small children and running a store to help pay off her husband's debts, Marguerite still helped the poor. Once her children were grown, she and several companions rescued a Quebec hospital which was in danger of failing. She called her community the Institute of the Sisters of Charity of Montreal; the people called them the "Grey Nuns" because of the color of their habit. In time, a proverb arose among the poor people of Montreal, "Go to the Grey Nuns; they never refuse to serve." In time, five other religious communities traced their roots to the Grey Nuns.

The General Hospital in Montreal became known as the Hotel Dieu (House of God) and set a standard for medical care and Christian compassion. When the hospital was destroyed by fire in 1766, she knelt in the ashes, led the Te Deum (a hymn to God's providence in all circumstances) and began the rebuilding process. She fought the attempts of government officials to restrain her charity and established the first foundling home in North America.

Pope John XXIII, who beatified her in 1959, called her the "Mother of Universal Charity." She was canonized in 1990.

Quote

"More than once the work which Marguerite undertook was hindered by nature or people. In order to work to bring that new world of justice and love closer, she had to fight some hard and difficult battles" (John Paul II, canonization homily).

Oby1:

Holy Spirit enlighten the darkness of our intellects by your power so that we may recognize the gospel for what it truly is. We pray that our faith in Christ may grow ever stronger and more perfect. AMEN

Oby1,

We are still friends aren't we? Why is that when i ask you questions you do not reply? Okay lets keep it cool and aswer this question:

Which of these two statements will you pick as a child of God?

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[li]I hereby submit myself to the Bishop of My Diocess in recognition of his superiority over me. I swear that I shall obey him and honour him as my spiritual leader as he directs me in the ways of God and salvation in the Catholic church
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[li]I hereby submit myself to the Bishop of My Diocess in recognition of his superiority over me. I swear that I shall obey him and honour him as my spiritual leader as he directs me in the ways of God and salvation in the Catholic church in as much as his directives are in accordance with the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ as given in the Holy Bible.
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Please in all honesty reply me which you think you would choose in an act of submission to your superiors.

Glory to Jesus

Honour to Mary