@cgift,

How body? No vex - I never fit sidon do email - but I go reach you soon.

Bros. . . you no even leave anytin for me to yan lawyer again! You just take efrytin commot for my mouth . . kai!

Okay, me I queue up to welcome lawyer sha. I don talk am before - "it's only a matter of time".

Wey ebos? _{something tells me he's watching by the sidelines. .} I salute O!

@lawyer,

Hallo again. Glad to see you're back after a while, and sure you were missed. At least, if anything, I do hope that those who had a holy or sacntimonious suspicion would now rest their hearts about the allegation that you were a "fake" Catholic "working hand in hand with pilgrim.1".

lawyer:

What i noticed and i would love to ask the antagonist of the catholic church is that, " Is everything about the catholic church totally negative and there's no positives that could be bettered in future?" Because everything seems to hang on the negatives of the catholic church 100% which imao is not totally fair.

We could give you the credit here - and to be fair, it is quite unhealthy for one to be occupied only with negatives. As far as discussions in public fora go, people are concerned with the veracity of the purity of the CHRISTIAN Faith, rather than merely with the shade of a particular tradition (Catholic, Protestant, or any other).

Many people may argue that we have to accept a system simply because no single denomination is 100% positive. But when we come to grips with the declaratives of the divine counsel in Biblical integrity, it becomes necessary to make a choice between heeding God's warning to "come out" (Rev. 18:4), or follow our own persuasions to remain with clever questions and objections. Which shall it be?

Between what is "fair" and what is not, the real issue is what the Roman Catholic Church truly believes she is in the sight of the Almighty God. This is the basic question that the discussions in various threads are seeking to answer. If one takes away MARIOLATRY from the RCC, what is left? Would the RCC survive that subtraction? Perhaps the answer to that is already a silent dilemma for many.

lawyer:

like every other church, they do have a choir which praises God non stop and they recite passages from the bible. I know at this junction, the endless debate over which bible is right or false will creep in here, but the bottom line is that i noticed, they actually quote from the old testaments for the first gospel passage, the new testament during the second gospel reading and a specific chapter from any of the 4 apostles for the main gospel reading and during the sermon or homily as it's being refered in the catholic church, the priests do actually preach the word of God and although veiled references to Mary and the other saints do crop up, it all about the teachings of God which i don't think is wrong in any manner.

While appreciating your rationale and willingness to independently investigate matters for yourself, I've had so many emailers asking the same questions. This is what I've hitherto offered in response:

Without seeking to be deliberately offensive, let me pose a few pointers:

[list][li]The "veiled references to Mary" are a deliberate exercise by the RCC to supplant the Lord Jesus Christ with MARIOLATRY.[/li][/list]

[list]This is why the Vatican will not seek to explain why her Bishops and Popes have referred to Mary as "the SAVIOR of the people of Rome". This is a development that has come a long way from that which many Catholic lay-readers have come to know as Salus Populi Romani – "Salvation of the People of Rome". Although there are many sources today who embarrasingly euphemise the term to mean "Protectress" or "Health" of the People of Rome (as one may find in resources such as Wikipedia), we know that reknowned Catholic figures translate that term precisely as the former.

If some might suspect this to be somewhat dubious or an untrue rendering, I'm glad to say that the duplicity is not mine but rests in the works and usage of Catholic figures themselves. An example is the well-known and much talked about Josemaría Escriva whose website precisely refered to 'Salus Populi Romani' as "Salvation of the People Rome" - and that was in reference to MARY.

That the term "salus" commonly means "salvation" in Roman Catholic theology, please compare the term in the following phrases in popular RCC verbiage:[/list]

[list]* IHS -- I[/b]n [b]H[/b]ac (Cruce) [b]S[/b]alus :: 'in this (cross) salvation'[/list]

[list]* a cruce salus :: 'salvation from (or by) the cross'[/list]

[list]* concordia salus :: 'salvation through harmony'[/list]

[list]* Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus :: 'Outside the Church there is no salvation'[/list]

The point in all this is that the RCC has supplanted the [b]only Saviour (Jesus Christ - Acts 4:12 and Php. 3:20) with MARIOLATRY, so that not many Catholics are aware that MARY is being held as the "Saviour/Salvation" of those in communion with the "see" of Rome! My question has always been that the Catholic has to choose between (a) CHRIST the only Saviour, and (b) the Vatican supplanting MARY as the "Salus" (Salvation) of their souls. There is just no middle ground on this.

Speaking of Homilies, we have seen several times already that the Popes cannot deny that the Scriptures clearly teach that there is only One Saviour and Redeemer - the Lord Jesus Christ. But more than that, the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church publishes this tenet severally; as for instance:

[center][list]

#432 The name "Jesus" signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation, so that "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

[/list][/center]

Now, if the RCC means business to be honest and faithful to what they preach in the example of the Catechism above, would they not indeed have recognized that Jesus ALONE brings salvation, and that "there is no other name" that can truly save men - not even the name of MARY? On what basis then would the RCC justify the heresy of referring to Mary as the 'Salus Populi Romani' (i.e., "Salvation [or, 'SAVIOUR'] of the people of Rome"?

When we carefully consider the implications, we might as well ask: on what basis could the RCC have declared (even without Biblical justification) that MARY is the salvation of anybody? Some have tried to argue this away on as if it doesn't matter, claiming that it's just merely that she is called that title and there's nothing to it. If that were so, pilgrim.1 would not even cough on the subject; but it certainly carries a deeper significance that multiplied millions of Catholics are simply oblivious to! I have appealed to Catholic lay-readers on this Forum to please go back and carefully read what the Vatican has said about the FACT that the RCC worships Mary - but this has simple been received with stark unbelief at the possibility that such a thing might have occured!

There are tomes of evidence that the Catholic Church "worships" Mary - some which would rattle the nerves of any hard-nosed Catholic who defiantly denies the obvious. Rather than post the mind-boggling ones at the moment, I'd rather refer to excerpts that we're all familiar with - an example from the "Fulgens Corona" Encyclical of Pope Pius XII:

[center][list]

34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity.

[/list][/center]

[list]Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].[/list]

Now, could any Catholic in an objective and sound manner explicate what the Pope Pius XII meant by "this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother"? We've sampled the denials enough - but it's about time to face up to the reality that the Vatican has been cleverly couching this rite in evesive language so that multiplied millions of Catholics the world over are simply left in the dar as to the fact of Marian WORSHIP!

@lawyer,

The foregoing are indeed the pressing issues that require our serious consideration. Before I became a Christian(converted from Islam), we were led to believe that Christianity was a heinous polytheistic religion; because under the influence of the Catholic Church, Muhammad had thought that the "Trinity" comprised the Father, the Son (Jesus), and Mary the mother (nevermind that Muslims rever that fallacy as the 'word of Allah'). You can verify this from the Qur'an in Sura 5:116 --

[list][list]And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? [/list][/list]

Any objective reader would understand that Muhammad was merely being influenced by his own thinking about what he assumed was the Christian doctrine of the "Trinity", and many thanks to the Roman Catholic monk who was his tutor on "Christian" beliefs. My point here is simple: you could just imagine how humongous and far-reaching is the heresy of the Vatican, that the souls of untold millions are led astray by those heresies! Is it any wonder then that God Himself warned in Revelation 18:4 that His people should come out from such a system that unashmedly corrupts the His counsels, though it claim to be doing "a lot of good" ?!? He that has ears, let him hear.

Sapienti sat!

@lawyer,

lawyer:

I took particular interest in last week's sermon that talked about the gifts of the holy spirit ( wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and the fear of the lord)

It also dwelt on the fruits of the holy spirit ( joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, mildness, faith, modesty, continency and chastity)

Now these are positives things about the catholic church that has been constantly overlooked.

Forgive me, but I don't know how many people who have had a sound debate on Catholicism have 'overlooked' the fact that the RCC speaks of such things and more (as they also speak of Jesus being the one who ALONE brings salvation). We know they speak of these matters [and lay members are unaware of the flip side of the story]. But the question is this: what has the Catholic Church done with the truth of God's WORD?!? She had indeed twisted the divine counsels, misrepresent the Biblical messages, displaced the truth of the Lordship of Jesus Christ by supplanting true Biblical Christianity with MARIOLATRY!

I've teased some with a simple question: do Catholics pray to or worship Mary? And the initial reaction was shock and unbelief to even have suggested such a thing! But what do we now have? No Catholic is able to deny the fact that Catholics pray to Mary; but more than that, as has been demonstrated from the Homily of Pope Pius XII, I'd waiting to see more Catholics come forward and deny that from the earliest Christian era, Catholics have "WORSHIPPED the heavenly mother" - MARY! (verbatim quote)!

lawyer:

Nobody is saying the popes of the past having done terrible things to bring the catholic churche's name to disrepute over the years and the current pope has made some gaffs of recent. But in as much as you point out these gaffs and and odd statements of the catholic church, these popes have also said and done things to reconcile other faiths and bring unity one way or the other and i think it's a worthwhile thing but at the same time, we should act as checks and balances for their excesses when they go above board.

Hehehe. . May I ask you this: WHO was responsible for the DISUNITY among Christians in the first place? Is it not ironic that the same Catholic Church that caused such deep disunity among Christians is the same body that now seeks "unity"? Uhm. . wait: at the same time that she pretends to be seeking unity, what did the incumbent Pope Benedict XVI affirm? When he OFFICIALLY affirmed that non-Catholics are not true Churches, was he actually seeking "unity" in the true sense of the word?

Well, I commend your objectivity - but we also ask that you look a bit closer, because "dark mustard yellow" is simply Gamboge and not the same thing as "Gold".

Okay, just teasing. But seriously, the Catholic Church is not working towards the unity of the Spirit of God among Christians. We shall be sharing the real gist of what many people are unaware of in the RCC bid to seek "world peace". It is a political exercise for world domination with sinister powers, which has been casually termed the 'New World Order' (or the elusive 'Illuminati'). I don't mean to frighten anyone; but we shall get there steadily.

@lawyer,

lawyer:

I know it hurts alot of people about the extremities of the vatican, past and present and the doctrines sound totally imbecilic to loads of people, but i chose to ignore the negatives and chose the positives.

A wise thing to do - choose what's right; but do so objectively. Some people make the mistake ignoring Biblical warnings, because often it just makes us uncomfy and rock our gentle boats. However, when it comes to the things of God, He has always asked us to be circumspect (Exo. 23:13); to prove ALL things, not "some things" (1 Thes. 5:21); and to do nothing by partiality (1 Tim. 5:21). It isn't an easy thing to do; but as we seek to obey HIM in dependence upon His Spirit, we shall come to enjoy the glorious release from remaining slaves to falsehood (I know - because it wasn't an easy decision for me to make before I left Islam).

lawyer:

What finally convinced me that the catholic church is not that bad as postulated was a certain event that happened 2 weeks ago. There was this catholic society called the saint vincent de paul society that caters for the poor and neglected in the society. They went round the whole of lagos and collected almost 700 destitutes, retards and kids born with some form of affliction and feted them, clothed them and aided them with gifts and welfare packages from their meagre resources. I asked one of the members why they did such a thing, and he said, it's written in the bible to help the poor and ask for nothing in return, because it could be anybody who could be in that situation. Now i studied this man and found out that he was totally oblivious to the happenings of the vatican or the need to boast about his theological and intellectual superiority. He was just serving God and it had nothing to do with whether mary is the mother of God or who intercedes for who. He was just being a good christian and i know whether he was in another pentecosatal church or not, his quest to serve God is just his motto and nothing more. And it's from this little example, i chose to go back to the catholic faith, not to argue or defend the vatican, but to see it as a place of worship and assimilate the positives that is being thought about Christ and ignore things that i think would affect my beliefs and faith.

It is always a good thing to be occupied with the good as much as we can. That being said, would our salvation rest secure on the good things we do - even with a desire to "please" God? Let's see some answers:

[list][li]Isaiah 64:6 - "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away"[/li][/list]

[list][li]Hebrews 12:25 - "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven."[/li][/list]

It pays to listen to and OBEY God's WORD. We may be engaged in a whole lot of "doing good" and "suffering for His sake"; but nothing will atone for the sin of disobeying His clear instruction. "Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." (1 samuel 15:22).

lawyer:

Every church has that person or group of people who try to explain the obvious beyond the comprehension of what the bible actually teaches and we can chose to accept it hook line and sinker or pray to the one and only God. We all need a medium to communicate and most catholics were born into the catholic church and although bad habits are hard to let go, but i'll go one step better and follow the word of God when it's being explained and preached to me, which is what wqe all need to attain that salvation.

Great to be back and please go on with the debates, it's quite an enchanting, entertaining, intellectual read and spectacle.

God bless.

Wow!! This is awesome, lawyer. . awesome!

Believe me - the highlighted part of your quote is what gladdens my heart, because that is what many people have said again and again in their search for God's truth! Some indeed are undecided as yet, even though they said they had left Catholicism; but my joy is not in leaving this or that (just as I wouldn't have been any better in leaving Islam and arriving nowhere). However, a few said that they simply can't take the 'heat' in the things they read from our debates; and rather than die under the burden of the fear of leaving the RCC, they would die in it! I wished them well and still continue to pray for such.

Yet, for all those who have shared that they'd rather "go one step better and follow the WORD of God". . . my joy knows know bounds as I encourage you to do so. I hope now some of them can now begin to understand why I would rather have them exercise the discipline of seeking God's truth for themselves rather than making it a matter of "please I want to come to your church so that I can be saved!"

God bless all in their individual persuasions and help us all to be deeply convicted by His infallible truth! .

Welcome back, lawyer. You'll continue to be in my prayers.

Worshipping MARY - did YOU know?

I just want to reiterate this - incase my Catholic friends missed it.

When I asked much earlier whether Catholics pray to MARY, the answers from them was a signal denial of the fact - and a postscript was added:

We do NOT worship MARY!

Okay, I hear. For quite a while I've been hinting that I would post the tomes of evidence from Catholic Bishops and Popes themselves who have clearly declared that their worship is to MARY - that they WORSHIP Mary - and also that the lay members should be kept in Mariolatry and not the 'mystery' revealed to all!

Because some emailers whom I have not had the tim to reply all this while, have persistently requested that they want to see me post them, I will only oblige here just ONE that they ought to be familiar with. This is simply to show that there are indeed clear evidence for the assertion I made, contrary to the queries that I was making "empty boasts" without ANY line as proof in the so-called Catholic archives I had referred to several times. (please, 'RB', 'Sven', TX, pay close attention).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

There are tomes of evidence that the Catholic Church "worships" Mary - some which would rattle the nerves of any hard-nosed Catholic who defiantly denies the obvious. Rather than post the mind-boggling ones at the moment, I'd rather refer to excerpts that we're all familiar with - an example from the "Fulgens Corona" Encyclical of Pope Pius XII:

[center][list]

34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity.

[/list][/center]

[list]Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].[/list]

Now, could any Catholic in an objective and sound manner explicate what the Pope Pius XII meant by "this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother"? We've sampled the denials enough - but it's about time to face up to the reality that the Vatican has been cleverly couching this rite in evesive language so that multiplied millions of Catholics the world over are simply left in the dark as to the fact of Marian WORSHIP!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Beyond this, I've been keeping my cool. For those who have pressed the issue, I will next post the diabolic quotes of your POPES as to the real MARY that they worship - then I hope your emails will be carefully worded.

My small kweshun now is: IS there proof or not that the Popes have indicated that they WORSHIP Mary - "heavenly mother"?

Enjoy!

Pilgrim, are you unemployed?!

i don even ask am whether e dey get time for God

marissa:

Pilgrim, are you unemployed?!

Oby1:

i don even ask am whether e dey get time for God

You weaklings

She is just smart and thinks very quickly unlike some people that have nothing to offer just wasting network resources

Oby1:

i don even ask am whether e dey get time for God

marissa:

Pilgrim, are you unemployed?!

Again, these are grossly unintlligent questions? For all you care, she could be making more mony than you I think she is just smart, analytical, detailed and brisk in unsettling the fallacies of your leaders and establishing your humanoid nature as catholics. No worries, just take some pills as you read on so you dont collapse

@ cgift

Are you unemployed too? Abi are you Pilgrim in other clothes?!

@Oby1,

Oby1:

i don even ask am whether e dey get time for God

Lol. . . and wetin be my answer?

@marissa,

How body?

marissa:

Pilgrim, are you unemployed?!

You get work, or you just dey ask? Wetin carry you visit the thread if you and me are "unemployed"?

i hail ooooooooooo

I hail also O!

_{I hope say Catholics no go vex say I no chant Ave Maria!}

Worshipping MARY - did YOU know?

E[/b]xcerpts from the "[b]Fulgens Corona" Encyclical of Pope Pius XII:

[center][list]

34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity.

[/list][/center]

[list]Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].[/list]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My small kweshun now is: IS there proof or not that the Popes have indicated that they WORSHIP Mary - "heavenly mother"?

I hail again O!!

Pilgrim the Pilgrim carry dey go, but make you dey put check and balances, coma and full stop

@Oby1,

Oby1:

Pilgrim the Pilgrim carry dey go, but make you dey put check and balances, coma and full stop

Since I leave school, I don forget my punctuation. But I hear - my articles are well "checked", the coma may be missing here and there, but the fullstop is always the last thing I put at the end!

Full stop[size=24pt].[/size]

na wa 4u o

okay now, here we gfo finally we get the downloads on the atrocities of the catholic church.

all catholics beware o.

The encyclical of Pius XII (kai we are now in trouble).

abeg show me more on the errors of the church, please.

@Carlosein,

How was your weekend?

Carlosein:

The encyclical of Pius XII (kai we are now in trouble).

abeg show me more on the errors of the church, please.

Relax. . . you in particular are not in trouble (unless you want to be in one).

It is not not about showing you the errors of "the Church", but all this while I have been asking simple questions about MARIOLATRY, you guess wanted to rub pancake over the issue.

It is not "the Church" that started the Mariolatry business - it was a few men who dribbled in their way pretending all kinds of sanctimonious visions and all sorts, who have carved out what today has become the prodigal of a lost empire (Rome).

I asked this question about MARY-WORSHIP a couple of times earlier - what was the response Catholics gave? Now only a very small hint has been posted, and una wan faint? Supposing I didn't calm down and posted the mind-boggling ones, wetin you go do?

Relax. . . that was just a dessert - the real dish will come soon!

my mouth is watering already, please forget the pep talk and post the real thing cos i am more than interested o.

Haaarrgh!!    You go fit survive as a member of Ave Maria when you read am?!?

No worry. . . like I used to say - it is only a matter of time! When we get there, pilgrim.1 go post am (punctuations or not).

This one: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-75506.960.html#msg1606839) was for the gentlemen wey dey follow me argue by email exchanges! I wanted them to see it and then send me their replies first. If they are still rascally, then I go oblige the one wey go make them be careful how they address pilgrim.1 for emails.

Cherio.

haa, more pep talk.

No wahala. . . just take style answer that one question so I go add am to the sequel.

hau can i "take style" answer kweshun from the omniscient pilgrim.1.

haba, i don't know anything o.

Carlosein:

hau can i "take style" answer kweshun from the omniscient pilgrim.1.

No talk am again O! How can you claim "omniscient" for this dunce?

Relax. . . as soon as rascal replies provoke the need for the post, you go read them. Prepare your heart!

@pilgrim and cgift

Thanks for your warm response. Greatly appreciated.

I have read your replies and i see the points your trying to bring out which in most situations can be validly said to be true in respect of the negativities of the rcc as claimed but as i said earlier, am not concerned about the negatives because it would be an endless debate to prove this or that that might not necessarily sink into the die hard catholics out to defend the faith whether right or wrong but you have to understand that there is a big line in the way african catholics and european catholics take the issue of catholicism.

Most of the criticsms against the pope would really come as a suprise to alot of african nay nigerian catholics because, i can validly say 75% of them havent seen a pope in real life and rely mostly on the doctrines, media or what has been passed to them from mouth to mouth. The african tradition provides for utmost respect and the need not to question authority especially if it is a religious matter.

All catholics were born into the faith b'cos their parents were catholics and there is a need to follow the tradition till your intellectually wise to sift the grains and chaff. Unlike most protestant churches were you could change churches at will till you come to appreciate the one that fulfills your spiritual need, it's extremely difficult for a catholic to switch from the home he has come to know all his life.

Whether the issue of the mariotary or the issue of venerence to mary or the wordings of the popes and the rcc doctrines mean anything to catholics spiritually, is left for them because it's all the have known all their lives as 100% good and bad, right or wrong. They are neither participants in the politics of the vatican or the debates we so vigourously try to postulate here on this forum and other places of discuss. Think of the catholics some where in the remote part of nassarawa who isnt educated and relies on the teachings of the catholic church to get by day by day or the highly educated ones who choose to do the word of God under the banner of the catholic church such as dora akinluyi and a host of others.

The battle isnt what the catholic church teaches that is wrong or the references to mary and the worship to the statutes, but what these people actually do in their private lives.

Just the way muslims in the middle east are born into the faith and are bound to uphold the tenents of the muslim faith good or bad, is the way catholics feel. Agreed its too dogmatic in nature but imao the positives outweigh the negatives. Loads of priests i know, talk about the goodness of God and the teachings of Jesus alot. Maybe the issue of mary sharing the spotlight is too much for non catholics to stomach but the catholic church is not only filled with statements of prayers towards mary and the saints alone.

A popular prayer in the catholic church called the "Gloria" goes thus

" Glory to God in the highest and peace to his people on earth
Lord God, heavenly king, almighty God and father, we worship you, we give you thanks,

We praise you for your glory.

Lord Jesus Christ, only son of the father,

Lord God, lamb of God, you take away the sins of this world,

Have mercy on us,

You are seated on the right hand of the father, recieve our prayers.

For you alone are the holy one,

you alone are the lord,

you alone are the most high, Jesus christ, with the holy spirit, in the glory of the God the father.

Amen

This prayer actually acknowledges the prescence of God and the role jesus plays in our lives and the need to call on him in times of need. Prayers like this can be said by anyone who is a christian without any form of colouring of denomination and these are the kind of positive things i look forward to in the catholic church.

As cgift asked earlier, who is to act as checks and balances on the catholic church, and i reply, the same congregation would act as checks and balances on erring senior officials either quietly or in the open but it shouldnt be expected that you see it in your morning papers everyday. Diplomacy plays a big role and if you care to check the history of the catholic church, the atrocities in the earlier centuries have been greatly weathered down and hopefully in the years to come, mordern and contemporary ways of doing things would gradually change a tradition that has been there for centuries.

So all am saying is that while i appreciate the points against the catholic church not conforming with mordern day christian attitudes and lifestyles because it is extremely conservative, we should also look at the things that the catholic church has done positively to improve the lot of man and christianity and proclaim these issues more and make them conform more because everybody loves to be given a pat on the back for a job well done but when you expose the negatives more, you either make the person recoil deeper into his shell or make the person more dogmatic in his beliefs which is even more dangerous.

@cgift and pilgrim, i believe the handstance your recieving on these catholic threads from catholics is because the balance between the good and the bad of the rcc is totally non existent and you dwell so much on the negatives and i can assure you if out of 10 issues you bring about the catholic church and you at least give a thumb up for just one thing, concrete and effective debates would ensure devoid of the wranglings that have come to categorize these threads. E.g am no muslim but i appreciate the 5 tenets muslims observe daily. It's a worthwhile thing and if more christians could pick 2 or 3 of these things and apply in their daily lives, the world would be a better place.

So please temper your debates a little bit and you would be suprised the stoic silence from catholics would gradually wane and we could all share more knowledge which might not neccessarily be beneficial to us personally but our kids could grow up to be better christians and more wiser in the wordings of God when we talk to them about our experiences we have garnered.

Peace y'all

lawyer

When you de go monastery? . You go be good priest o.

Today's Saint 23/10/07

St. John of Capistrano (1386-1456)


It has been said the Christian saints are the world’s greatest optimists. Not blind to the existence and consequences of evil, they base their confidence on the power of Christ’s redemption. The power of conversion through Christ extends not only to sinful people but also to calamitous events.

Imagine being born in the fourteenth century. One-third of the population and nearly 40 percent of the clergy were wiped out by the bubonic plague. The Western Schism split the Church with two or three claimants to the Holy See at one time. England and France were at war. The city-states of Italy were constantly in conflict. No wonder that gloom dominated the spirit of the culture and the times.

John Capistrano was born in 1386. His education was thorough. His talents and success were great. When he was 26 he was made governor of Perugia. Imprisoned after a battle against the Malatestas, he resolved to change his way of life completely. At the age of 30 he entered the Franciscan novitiate and was ordained a priest four years later.

His preaching attracted great throngs at a time of religious apathy and confusion. He and 12 Franciscan brethren were received in the countries of central Europe as angels of God. They were instrumental in reviving a dying faith and devotion.

The Franciscan Order itself was in turmoil over the interpretation and observance of the Rule of St. Francis. Through John’s tireless efforts and his expertise in law, the heretical Fraticelli were suppressed and the "Spirituals" were freed from interference in their stricter observance.

He helped bring about a reunion with the Greek and Armenian Churches, unfortunately only a brief arrangement.

When the Turks captured Constantinople in 1453, he was commissioned to preach a crusade for the defense of Europe. Gaining little response in Bavaria and Austria, he decided to concentrate his efforts in Hungary. He led the army to Belgrade. Under the great General John Junyadi, they gained an overwhelming victory, and the siege of Belgrade was lifted. Worn out by his superhuman efforts, Capistrano was an easy prey to the infection bred by the refuse of battle. He died October 23, 1456.

Quote

On the saint's tomb in the Austrian town of Villach, the governor had this message inscribed: "This tomb holds John, by birth of Capistrano, a man worthy of all praise, defender and promoter of the faith, guardian of the Church, zealous protector of his Order, an ornament to all the world, lover of truth and religious justice, mirror of life, surest guide in doctrine; praised by countless tongues, he reigns blessed in heaven." That is a fitting epitaph for a real and successful optimist.