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Culture / Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysRev: 12:30pm On Jul 24, 2011 |
@ Ogbuefi On the 8000/800 thing, you said initially that 40,000 Anioma were killed when I was only discussing the Midwestern 1967 killings, and not any of the other deaths throughout the period. Consequently it seemed very much as though you were saying 40,000 were killed in the Midwest in 1967. Only much later did you actually clarify what you meant when you said 40,000. So I don't know how you got it into your head that I claimed that Ohaneze brought a claim that 8000 were killed from 1966 to 1970 when I was not addressing that. You should have been clearer in what you meant by 40,000. Second, I did not get the 8000 figure from misreading "800". The 8000 figure for 1967 Midwest killings is from an estimate made in a newspaper by someone who was never in Nigeria and it was one of the figures (not the only figure) used by Ohaneze for a 1999 claim for compensation from the federal government. I did not read this 800 figure and it never entered into anything that I said. If the document does indeed say 800, then that is specifically for Benin, which I did not attempt to give any number for. Third, on the claim of 800 killed, yes obviously there were killings and that is clearly an estimate, and I would be interested in knowing how that figure was arrived at. I know that Giwa Amu's full quote (I have read it) on the executions in Benin describes hundreds killed, so I have no issue with the figure itself, though I don't see how his statement or the estimate of 800 based on his statement tallies with the statement that "thousands were killed in Benin by the Binis." Regardless of how it was reached, I have never seen any evidence that anybody claimed that a significant fraction of the populace of Benin was involved in pointing out 800 people for executions. That said, in every society, there are higher elements, and there are lower elements in the society, and it's not beholden upon the entire society to start apologizing for the activities of every scoundrel, criminal, extremist, or bigot in that society but if you need a personal apology, then I do apologize for what some people in Benin did and for those elsewhere in the Midwest who pointed out people for executions in 1967. However, I do not really see what the worth of that apology could be, since it is not coming from those who actually did the deed, and from someone who wasn't even born until decades from then. I don't really approve of the idea of holding whole groups to apologizing for an action that the whole group could not have had control over and holding them to it for decades or centuries. I would no more approve of a random Anioma person approaching a random Bini person and complaining and demanding an apology than I would approve of a random black person in the New World demanding an apology from a random African over slavery, when that individual had no control over the actions and choices of every segment of his group back then, no matter how small. I think the demand for some sort of "universal Midwestern apology" is misplaced and is not likely to happen anytime in the future. People sitting around waiting for apologies from whole ethnic groups over anything, and for what a very small fraction of an ethnic group did, will still keep waiting 100 years from now and 100 years after that and so on. |
Culture / Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysRev: 11:52am On Jul 24, 2011 |
7. Finally, on Jacob Egharevba, it is true that many Binis themselves dispute some things that he wrote. For example, he initially said that brass casting only came at a certain 14th century date, when other oral traditions, and even traditions that he collected and published in his very first edition of A Short History, make a very clear reference to brass casting during the time of the Ogisos. There is also his statement about the demonym "Edo" only coming about in the 15th century, which is not all that plausible. Nevertheless, he is necessarily respected because of the huge extent of his efforts on Benin history (he wrote many books, not just A Short History of Benin) at a time when it was at risk of fading away. There are multiple things that Egharevba stated that were confirmed independently of his statements (such as the extent of Igala power, the exact time at which a certain 18th century Oba of Benin died, some of his statements about moat building taking place in certain centuries,etc.) and there are some that are contradicted by other evidence. This is not that unusual for any historian, whether the historian is recording oral history or materially documented history, so just dismissing Egharevba's work with a wave of the hand is not really sensible. |
Culture / Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysRev: 11:30am On Jul 24, 2011 |
b) Also, the Benin story of Agboghidi was told to a European in 1911, by Oba Eweka (who was then a prince and not Oba). I can provide incontrovertible proof of this, but the spambot keeps hiding the post. So the claim that Egharevba made up the story is just another lie from you. c) I will comment on the Ubulu uku issue again when the spambot regains its sanity, but for now I will move onto other things. |
Culture / Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysRev: 8:22am On Jul 05, 2011 |
16. Your other statements about Prof Dike and Prof Njoku would be more relevant in a debate about academic achievement between the Igbo and a group of equally large size. In all honesty those two areas (history and botany) are not sufficiently challenging/difficult (in my opinion, but probably also to most other people studying the "hard" sciences) to the point where anyone could even make insinuations about any academic superiority by producing Ph.Ds in those areas before another group. I would only chalk that up to a population advantage, and like I said earlier, the Binis were initially behind in education in the colonial era, so it's surprising that Emovon was such an early Ph.D to begin with and that you have not listed anyone from Anioma who was the first in a whole academic field (not a sub-field) despite their educational head start of many years. I'm sure if you dig deep enough you can find someone, but it's surprising that you would have to do so despite your perspective on some sort of superiority in achievements. It's also quite telling that a Bini man beat any Anioma man to earn two doctorates in the mathematical sciences (Dr. Iyahen) and is the first Nigerian to earn a D.Sc (as a higher doctorate than a Ph.D) in any of the mathematical sciences. 18. Regarding the first primary school, I can only laugh. Once again the "lie" you exposed was due to a simple error of omission. You got lucky there. I was actually the one who posted a book link in an earlier post which even said how slaves in the Delta Igbo area in the late 1800s (before 1900) were the most enthusiastic about embracing Western education to save them from the abuses and sacrifices that they had been subjected to by their chiefs and owners. So I was not unaware of missionary schools as I had read that even before this came up, but this question of why they had schools (missionary schools) a quarter of a century earlier, but didn't beat the Binis so hands down educationally is very interesting. Those UN reports on Nigeria that you love so much consistently put Edo state ahead of Delta state with regard to "educational index" (I'm not saying that this statistic is in any way reliable, but you seem to think these reports are truly accurate). |
Culture / Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysRev: 8:19am On Jul 05, 2011 |
Regarding Dr. Frank Ndili being the first nuclear physicist (1965) from black Africa, I would be a little more cautious with that claim. It was rightfully believed by Nigerians that Chike Obi was the first sub saharan African to get a Ph.D. in mathematics because there was no evidence of anyone earlier, but then some Ghanians produced a claim that a Ghanian, A. M. Taylor, got a Ph.D in mathematics from Oxford in 1947. While I have not seen any concrete evidence to buttress that claim, I certainly do not think that the Ghanians would lie and make up a person and a date for such a claim. Also, Nigerians could easily claim that the first black African Ph.D in chemistry (or, if not all of chemistry, then just physical chemistry), was Dr. Emovon, but they have not done so out of cautiousness. I am sure that Alexander Animalu (Igbo, but not Anioma) is the first sub saharan African Ph.D in solid state physics, and Abel Guobadia (Bini) was the second in solid state physics, but I think Nigerians have not yet claimed to have produced the first overall physics Ph.D in all of black Africa out of cautiousness. In the same way, a Yoruba man was the first Nigerian Ph.D in computer science (1971) but I doubt that anyone knows for sure that Nigeria actually produced the first black African Ph.D in computer science or that anyone has claimed that a Yoruba produced the first African Ph.D in computer science. My point is that modesty and cautiousness would serve your case better. |
Culture / Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysRev: 8:18am On Jul 05, 2011 |
9. Of course Mr. Moloku was not an Edo man. There would not be an issue with Mr. Moloku being an Igbo man and there were many non-Binis who passed through that school (such as the first VC of Uniben, who was not Bini) and many non-Binis who were employed there. |
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