You say too much irrelevant things.

My point is, AbduAllah was said to be an idol worshiper. Isn't it? He must have been named after the 'god' in their family. At that time, the whole of Arabia was worshiping various (360) idols. Or are you saying they were muslims? You would be going against history to say they were.

Going by AbduAllah's name as an idol worshiper, allah was in his family before Muhammad was born. The same allah Muhammad met in his family, which he was worshiping and which suddenly became the true God.

When Muhammad came introducing allah, nobody asked him who allah was because they knew he was in his family. Now tell me the difference between the allah AbduAllah was worshiping as an idolater and the one you are worshiping as muslims.

Mose's father could be an idol worshiper but he did not continue in his father's religion. There was no idol named Yahweh.

Jesus as you know had no earthly father. I'm surprised you are saying this. Do you read quran at all?

Let me repeat my question: What is the difference (with proof) between the allah AbduAllah was worshiping as an idol worshiper and the one his son, Muhammad introduced, which you turned to true God?

Answer the question straight and stop the cock and bull stories you always use as your deffensive strategy.

@ RoyPCain

Was it God who spoke in the quran or allah?

You guys are mixing things up. Allah was worshiped by AbduAllah, Muhammad's father. The same Allah was promoted by his son, Muhammad. Muslims worship allah the same way AbduAllah was doing. When did AbduAllah's god turn to true God?

Was it God who spoke in the quran or allah?

You guys are mixing things up. Allah was worshiped by AbduAllah, Muhammad's father. The same Allah was promoted by his son, Muhammad. Muslims worship allah the same way AbduAllah was doing. When did AbduAllah's god turn to true God?

lanrexlan: Each of us is waiting,so wait you too.Maybe wrong belief is implanted in me or you,just wait till the day of judgement.

[/url]http://www.answering-christianity.com/yahya_ahmed/islam_fasting_growing_religion_world.htm
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion

If Islam has a message or not,wait till you are put in your grave.

Stick to that....Peace
N B I have unfollow the thread,don't try quoting me.

How do you want to talk and not wait for reply? Go through this as well, it is more detailed in terms of statistics. You know what? Christians don't tell lies in defence of their religion:

http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html

The Numbers
Overview

The largest overall religions:

1900 1) Christianity 2) Chinese folk-religions 3) Hinduism
1970 1) Christianity 2) Islam 3) Hinduism
1990 1) Christianity 2) Islam 3) Hinduism
1995 1) Christianity 2) Islam 3) Hinduism
2000 1) Christianity 2) Islam 3) Hinduism
2025 1) Christianity 2) Islam 3) Hinduism
2050 1) Christianity 2) Islam 3) Hinduism

The five fastest growing religions in terms of absolute numbers (new adherents per year, in millions):

1. Christianity 25,210,195

2. Islam 22,588,676

3. Hinduism 12,533,734

4. Chinese folk-religions 3,715,548

5. Buddhism 3,687,527

The five fastest growing religions in terms of relative growth compared to existing size of religion:

1. Zoroastrianism 2.65%

2. Bahá'í 2.28%

3. Islam 2.13%

4. Mandeans 2.12%

5. Sikhism 1.87%

The five fastest growing religions by conversions (new adherents per year, in millions):

1. Christianity 2,501,396

2. Islam 865,558

3. Buddhism 156,609

4. Sikhism 28,961

5. Baha'is 26,333

The five fastest growing religions by births (new adherents per year, in millions):

1. Christianity 22,708,799

2. Islam 21,723,118

3. Hinduism 13,194,111

4. Ethnoreligionists 4,098,003

5. Animists 3,985,506

Overall size, absolute numbers
World Christian Encyclopaedia

The World Christian Encyclopaedia (see background), lists the size of the 12 classic world religions.

Religion Numbers % Countries
Christianity 1,999,563,838 33.0% 238

Islam 1,188,242,789 19.6% 204

Hinduism 811,336,265 13.4% 114

Buddhism 359,981,757 5.9% 126

Sikhism 23,258,412 0.4% 34

Judaism 14,434,039 0.2% 134

Bahá'í 7,106,420 0.1% 218

Confucianism 6,298,597 0.1% 15

Jainism 4,217,979 0.1% 10

Shinto 2,761,845 0.0% 8

Taoism 2,654,514 0.0%
5
Zoroastrianism 2,543,950 0.0%
24
Other 1,632,648,595 26.9%
-
Total 6,055,049,000 100%

Table A ––– source: World Christian Encyclopaedia
• At slightly less than 2 billion, Christianity makes up about a third of the world population and approximately the same as the two next largest religions combined; Islam and Hinduism. Christianity is also the only religion represented in all 238 surveyed countries.

• The largest religion (Christianity) is aprox. 68% larger than the second largest religion (Islam) and 246% larger than the third largest religion (Hinduism).

• The nine smallest religions combined have fewer adherents than the third largest (Hinduism).

• And the eight smallest religions combined have fewer adherents than the fourth largest (Buddhism).

• The combined adherents of the three primary Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, makes up approximately 52.8% (3,202,240,666 persons) of the total population - more than half. Some times also Sikhism and the Bahá'í faith are counted as Abrahamic religions, in which case that number will be slightly higher.

• Non-religious people and people belonging to religions not part of the 12 world religions makes up slightly less than 27%. A smaller number than the largest religion, Christianity, but larger than the second largest religion, Islam.
Affiliation detail (Christianity):
Affiliation Numbers % Countries
Roman Catholics 1,057,328,093 17.5% 235
Independents 385,745,407 6.4% 221
Protestants 342,001,605 5.6% 233
Orthodox 215,128,717 3.6% 135
Anglicans 79,649,642 1.3% 166
Marginal Christians 26,060,230 0.4% 215
Table B ––– source: World Christian Encyclopaedia
Affiliation detail (Islam):
Affiliation Numbers % Countries

http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html
Sunni 1,002,542,801 16.6% 195
Suffi 237,400,000 3.9% 204
Shia 170,100,000 2.8% 75
Alawites 1,631,000 0.0% 15
Marginal Muslims 14,950,000 0.2% 110
Table C ––– source: World Christian Encyclopaedia
Affiliation detail (Hinduism):
Affiliation Numbers % Countries
Vaishnavites 549,583,323 9.1% 90
Shaivites 216,260,000 3.6% 60
Saktists 25,720,000 0.4% 35
Neo-Hindus 17,385,000 0.3% 65
Reform Hindus 4,460,000 0.1% 30

Table D ––– source: World Christian Encyclopaedia

Affiliation detail (Buddhism):
Affiliation Numbers % Countries
Mahayana 202,232,757 3.3% 115
Theravada 136,259,000 2.3% 30
Lamaists 21,490,000 0.4% 30
Table E ––– source: World Christian Encyclopaedia

Affiliation detail (Judaism):
Affiliation Numbers % Countries
Ashkenazis 11,079,939 0.2% 120
Oriental Jews 2,378,000 0.0% 25
Sefardis 952,000 0.0% 80
Karaites 24,100 0.0% 5
Samaritans 500 0.0% 5
Table F ––– source: World Christian Encyclopaedia
Figure 1 ––– source: World Christian Encyclopaedia
Figure 2 ––– source: World Christian Encyclopaedia

Britannica Encyclopedia

The Britannica Encyclopedia has some slightly different estimates. And for the year 2005.

Religion %
Christianity 33.06%
Islam 20.28%
Hinduism 13.33%
Buddhism 5.87%
Sikhism 0.39%
Judaism 0.23%
Bahá'í 0.12%
Confucianism 0.10%
Jainism 0.07%
Shinto 0.04%
Taoism 0.04%
Zoroastrianism 0.04%
Other 26.43%
Total 100%
Table G ––– source: Britannica Encyclopedia
The CIA World Fact Book

The CIA World Factbook is an annual publication of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) of the United States with almanac-style information - including demographics & faith statistics - about the 266 U.S. recognized countries of the world and a number of smaller areas. The Factbook only tabulate seven world religions. The numbers only differ slightly from the WCE and The Britannica Encyclopedia.

Religion size %
Christianity 2,234,770,118 33.32%
Islam 1,409,139,261 21.01%
Hinduism 889,347,292 13.26%
Buddhism 391,688,400 5.84%
Sikhism 23,474,476 0.35%
Judaism 15,426,084 0.23%
Bahá'í 8,048,392 0.12%
Other (incl. non-religious & atheists) 1,735,099,128 25.87%
Total 6,706,993,152 100%
Table H ––– source: The CIA World Fact Book, 2008 ed.


http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html

I don't care if this post is deleted like the ones before it.

Bible Testimony

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Quran Testimony

[Quran 5:111]
And when I inspired the disciples, (saying): Believe in Me and in My messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee).

The above is the truth about the Bible that is the Word of God.

Besides, the fact that the Bible existed long before the Quran and it (quran) repeated many things recorded in the Bible is a clear pointer to the fact that the Bible is the Word of God. How would the people who wrote the Bible know the mind of God, which the quran repeated if not by God speaking to them?

The quran is mostly a repetition of the events of the Bible in an incomplete way.

@ golpen

Your people have removed 'Is Muhammad the Last Prophet in Islam' o. What is the offence in that thread? Everything said there is from islamic sources.

They delete any thread they don't have good defence for. If islam is such that you don't have answers to those things that are obscure, why are you in it? Deceiving yourselves. It is a pity.

alexis:

Na only muslims like RoyCain, a semi literate religious adherent who can't see beyond his Quran that can mention Mohammed was the comforter Jesus spoke about.

1. How can a man that slept with a 9 year old be the comforter Jesus spoke about?
2. A man that killed another mans wife and married her
3. A man that robbed caravans
4. A man that suffered from epilepsy and was under the influence of a "spirit" that knocked him down often.

RoyCain === It appears you are delusional

Thank you brother.

RoyPCain: i disagree with the hiding, deleting and definitely banning. the moderator is not Islam. Muhammad [sa] is. So the action of the moderator is based on whatever the corporate headquarters say, i suppose. I am new here and a muslim. yet my posts have been hidden. I do not know why and i am not going to ask. If i find the place not welcoming enough, i curtail my activity which is just posting or just forget it altogether. take heart, man.

Thank you for your spirit of sportsmanship. God bless you.

It has been observed over times that any thread that cannot be effectively defended or where there is no defence at all incurred the wrath of the moderators in this section. It is either it is hidden, or deleted and in some cases the poster banned. I wonder why that is not done in the Christian section. Truth is light and the opposite goes for falsehood.

Why are people afraid of the pen? Why are they fighting for God? Don't you have words to prove allegations false if they are? If they are not, why concealing the truth?

It is true people interfere with some of your posts intended for educating your people, if such interferences are hidden, it could be justified. But what of threads opened for reasonings, or intelligent discussion or to express a personal view?

Nothing including religions can progress without challenges. Anybody running away or avoiding challenges is not qualified for promotion.

I believe banning, hiding or deleting post is a sign of defeat.

Only ONE contradiction you people are unable to clear and you post UNREAL 101 contradictions in the bible for us to answer. Still watching!!!

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel; No one, including the one [SA] God had bestowed His Mercy upon so much so that his name is attached to the Name of Allah [Muhammadanr rRasulullah] should be arrogant and say "I am enough all by myself", which is what you are doing in a way of deriding the one who is not less than the Jesus in the Presence of the Creator.

Well. you wanna know about Paradise? the below are just a snippet of a huge pile of many ways of God news; because the people are God conscious by tremendous effort of obedience to God.




066:008 Khan
:
O you who believe! Turn to Allah with sincere repentance! It may be that your Lord will remit from you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise) the Day that Allah will not disgrace the Prophet (Muhammad SAW) and those who believe with him, their Light will run forward before them and with (their Records Books of deeds) in their right hands they will say: "Our Lord! Keep perfect our Light for us [and do not put it off till we cross over the Sirat (a slippery bridge over the Hell) safely] and grant us forgiveness. Verily, You are Able to do all things."



harunyahya.com/en/Books/700/hopefulness-in-the-qur’an/.../1947



Hadith from the prophet [SA];


Prophet Muhammad () said: “All of my ummah will enter Paradise except those who refuse.” When asked: “O Messenger of Allah, who would refuse?” He () said: “Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise and whoever disobeys me has refused.” [Al-Bukhaari, 7280




Narrated Sa'id ibn Zayd:
AbdurRahman ibn al-Akhnas said that when he was in the mosque, a man mentioned Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). So Sa'id ibn Zayd got up and said: I bear witness to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) that I heard him say: Ten persons will go to Paradise: The Prophet (peace be upon him) will go to Paradise, AbuBakr will go to Paradise, Umar will go to Paradise, Uthman will go to Paradise, Ali will go to Paradise, Talhah will go to Paradise: az-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam will go to paradise, Sa'd ibn Malik will go to Paradise, and AbdurRahman ibn Awf will go to Paradise. If I wish, I can mention the tenth. The People asked: Who is he: So he kept silence. The again asked: Who is he: He replied: He is Sa'id ibn Zayd.
—Collected by Abu Dawood, Sunan Abu Dawood[1]




Abdul Rahman bin `Awf said: The prophet (s) said: Abu Bakr in Paradise, Omar in Paradise, 'Uthman in Paradise, Ali in Paradise, Talha in Paradise, al- Zubair (bin al-'Awwam) in Paradise, AbdulRahman bin `Awf in Paradise, Saad (bin Abi Waqqass) in Paradise, Saeed (bin Zaid), and Abu 'Ubaida bin al- Jarrah in Paradise."
—Tirmidhi[2]



Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I saw myself (in a dream) entering Paradise, and behold! I saw Ar-Rumaisa', Abu Talha's wife. I heard footsteps. I asked, Who is it? Somebody said, 'It is Bilal ' Then I saw a palace and a lady sitting in its courtyard. I asked, 'For whom is this palace?' Somebody replied, 'It is for 'Umar.' I intended to enter it and see it, but I thought of your ('Umar's) Ghira (and gave up the attempt)." 'Umar said, "Let my parents be sacrificed for you, O Allah's Apostle! How dare I think of my Ghira (self-respect) being offended by you? (Book #57, Hadith #28)


Narrated the merits of Bilal bin Rabah the freed slave of Abu Bakr. The Prophet said (to Bilal), "I heard the sound of your shoes in Paradise just in front of me." (Book #57, Hadith #97



After all of the assurances, they are humble and grateful to God.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh): Even I can enter Jannah (Paradise) only by Allah's pardon and mercy
Narrated 'Aisha (RadiAllahu 'anha):



Allah's Messenger ﷺ said:

"Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and receive good news because one's good deeds will not make him enter paradise."

They asked: " Even you, Messenger of Allah ﷺ? "

He ﷺ said: "Even I, unless and until Allah bestows His pardon and mercy on me."

[Sahih Bukhari - Book 76, Hadith 474]



www.questionsonislam.com/.../there-hadith-“no-one-will-enter-paradise-...


Our Prophet (PBUH) points out this truth as follows:

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "No one of you will enter Paradise by his deeds alone." They asked, "Not even you, O Messenger of Allah?" He said, "Not even me, unless Allah covers me with His Grace and Mercy" (Bukhari, Riqaq, 18; Muslim, Munafiq, 71-73).

As paradise is the reward of Allah’s mercy and favor, Hell is the punishment of man’s deeds. As a matter of fact, the following is stated in the Qur’an: “Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee is from thyself”. (result of your sins). (See an-Nisa, 4/79)

Your post is full of confusions, inconsistencies and uncertainty:

Narrated 'Um al-'Ala:
An Ansari woman who gave the pledge of allegiance to the Prophet that the Ansar drew lots concerning the dwelling of the Emigrants. 'Uthman bin Maz'un was decided to dwell with them (i.e. Um al-'Ala's family), 'Uthman fell ill and I nursed him till he died, and we covered him with his clothes. Then the Prophet came to us and I (addressing the dead body) said, "O Abu As-Sa'ib, may Allah's Mercy be on you! I bear witness that Allah has honored you." On that the Prophet said, "How do you know that Allah has honored him?" I replied, "I do not know. May my father and my mother be sacrificed for you, O Allah's Apostle! But who else is worthy of it (if not 'Uthman)?" He said, "As to him, by Allah, death has overtaken him, and I hope the best for him. By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I DO NOT KNOW WHAT Allah WILL DO TO ME. By Allah, I will never assert the piety of anyone after him. That made me sad, and when I slept I saw in a dream a flowing stream for 'Uthman bin Maz'un. I went to Allah's Apostle and told him of it. He remarked, "That symbolizes his (good) deeds.
(Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 266)

Muhammad said:
1. He did not know what Allah would do to him at death.
2. He would never assert the piety of anyone after him. Meaning he could not vouch for anyone's good work.

The same Muhammad who said he didn't know his own fate, who said he could not vouch for anybody is now saying ten people will go to heaven as in:

Narrated Sa'id ibn Zayd:
AbdurRahman ibn al-Akhnas said that when he was in the mosque, a man mentioned Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). So Sa'id ibn Zayd got up and said: I bear witness to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) that I heard him say: Ten persons will go to Paradise: The Prophet (peace be upon him) will go to Paradise, AbuBakr will go to Paradise, Umar will go to Paradise, Uthman will go to Paradise, Ali will go to Paradise, Talhah will go to Paradise: az-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam will go to paradise, Sa'd ibn Malik will go to Paradise, and AbdurRahman ibn Awf will go to Paradise. If I wish, I can mention the tenth. The People asked: Who is he: So he kept silence. The again asked: Who is he: He replied: He is Sa'id ibn Zayd.
—Collected by Abu Dawood, Sunan Abu Dawood[1]

1. Why was he inconsistent?
2. How did he know those ten will go to heaven?

If he saw himself in heaven in a dream, was that a reality? How many times have you dreamt and found yourself in another place, did it mean you were there actually? All these contradictions and inconsistencies are due to UNCERTAINTY. Period.

The truth is that Muhammad was not sure, no muslim is sure, it is all gambling. I pity you if you put your eternal life in gambling. You may not win. Invest your life where you are given assurance of making heaven please.

lanrexlan: It was built by your grandpa abi?

No. Kaaba was not built by his grandpa, it was built by pagans in arabia.

Muhammed says it was built 40 years prior to the Temple at Jerusalem:
Narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which mosque was built first?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Haram." I asked, "Which (was built) next?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem)." I asked, "What was the period in between them? He replied, forty years.
Sahih Bukhari 4:55:636

The Temple at Jerusalem was built by Solomon around 958-951 BC. This implies that if Muhammad were to be believed, the Ka’aba must have been built approximately 998-991 BC. But Abraham lived around 2000 BC and both Abraham and Ishmael would have been dead by then.

If Muhammad is correct, then the Qur’an [and therefore Allah] is wrong. But if the Qur’an is correct in stating that Abraham and Ishmael built the Ka’aba, then Muhammad and the sahih hadith is wrong.

The Ka’aba has nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. It has a wholly pagan heritage. Egyptian Professor and foremost authority on Arabic literature, Dr. Taha Husayn, said the following:
The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons.[1]

The fact that Muhammad considered dismantling it is a fact that it was not built by Abraham as a house of worship.

Narrated Aswad: Ibn Az-Zubair said to me, "Aisha used to tell you secretly a number of things. What did she tell you about the Ka'ba?" I replied, "She told me that once the Prophet said, 'O 'Aisha! Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance (infidelity)! I would have dismantled the Ka'ba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit." Later on Ibn Az-Zubair did the same.
Sahih Bukhari 1:3:128

Muhammad proved quran to be incorrect. Thank you.

In islam nobody is certain of his fate after death. Unfortunately, no muslim has ever died and come back to give them an idea of what is happening over there. In Christianity there is a way you relate with God you become sure of your Afterlife.

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, BUT UNTO ALL THEM ALSO THAT LOVE HIS APPEARING.

The above passage shows the confidence Paul expressed in his Afterlife. Not Paul alone but as many as live godly lives in Christ. The contrary is the case in islam.

[Quran 46:9]
Say: I am not the first of the messengers, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner.

Here it is stated that Muhammad and the muslims do not know what will be done with them. Some islamic defender said the verse is not talking about Afterlife, that is saying that Muhammad as his followers did not know what the unbelievers would do with them: whether they would be killed, harmed or exiled. But the below shows clearly that the verse is actually talking about their Afterlife:

Narrated 'Um al-'Ala:
An Ansari woman who gave the pledge of allegiance to the Prophet that the Ansar drew lots concerning the dwelling of the Emigrants. 'Uthman bin Maz'un was decided to dwell with them (i.e. Um al-'Ala's family), 'Uthman fell ill and I nursed him till he died, and we covered him with his clothes. Then the Prophet came to us and I (addressing the dead body) said, "O Abu As-Sa'ib, may Allah's Mercy be on you! I bear witness that Allah has honored you." On that the Prophet said, "How do you know that Allah has honored him?" I replied, "I do not know. May my father and my mother be sacrificed for you, O Allah's Apostle! But who else is worthy of it (if not 'Uthman)?" He said, "As to him, by Allah, death has overtaken him, and I hope the best for him. By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I DO NOT KNOW WHAT ALLAH WILL DO TO ME. By Allah, I will never assert the piety of anyone after him. That made me sad, and when I slept I saw in a dream a flowing stream for 'Uthman bin Maz'un. I went to Allah's Apostle and told him of it. He remarked, "That symbolizes his (good) deeds.
(Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 266)

The hadith confirms that Muhammad was talking about his Afterlife. He was not sure of what Allah will do to him at death. If the leader is not sure of his position with God, how will the followers? Infact the quranic verse under reference (46:9)also confirms not only Muhammad but all the muslims as well do not know what will happen to them. THIS is GAMBLING WITH ONES ETERNAL LIFE.

Since Muhammad was unsure, he could not give what he didn't have as he could not teach what he didn't know. Since he didn't know how to get to heaven, he was not qualified to teach people how to get there.

RoyPCain: @pointblank321; if you dont know, please dont make things up because the whole world may remember you by what you making up. the reality is that in the lifetime of the prophet [SA], whoever wanted to become muslim comes to Makka, when he was in Makka. When he migrated to Madina, whoever wanted to become muslim comes to Madina. i really dont know how you come about your "Muhammad must know where the reciters came from before he gave them the recitations. He would not expect them to pronounce the same way because they didn't come from the same area. So dialet was not the problem." as you stated, above?

evidently, it seems as if you do not know who was leading the muslim community at the time of the death of the 100 reciters which was the only reason for the suggestion of Quran in a Book Form. the prophet [SA] has passed and Abu Bakr [RA] was the ruler, when this effort to preserve it took place. if the prophet [SA] was alive at this time, maybe there would not have been such a big panic or debate because the true master was among them. Allah has determined what He determined, hence the making the Quran to a book took place as it did, therefore, not only guaranteed that the revelation will get to future generation, not only by oral transmittal but also as a complete package in book form instead of parchments, while the heart of the companions [RA] was at peace that InshaAllah, it is a noble effort.


let me propose something to you before i forget. if somebody were to bring to the attention of Nigerians after MKO [ra] had pssed that he witnessed him hand in hand with General Babangida and MKO announced that was in agreement with the annulment of the June 12 election that he won. do you think Nigerians will believe the was telling the true that he saw what he reported, when it is clear to all and on record today and June 12 is an annual event in nigeria and for many nigerian that MKO was arrested, detained and died in detention, all the while till the end rejected the annulment? if the whole citizenry of Nigeria and indeed the whole of the world say with one voice that they saw, heard that MKO, gave up his right as the person said, if such a farce was agreed upon by the whole world is not as bad and sickening as the deceptions of those who concocted the "satanic verses" ever happened, because it was not possible to have happened as a fact. it is their own fact but in reality a lie because Allah has sealed their hearts against truth and has allowed satan to control them which is the only reason they could arrive at something this despicable because the commitment of Muhammad [SA] to his mission couple with the history of the pagans against him and his community could not have allowed the possibility of anything remotely "satanic" and definitely no satanic verse to enter the book of Allah. whenever you wish to discuss this matter, let me know.


As i read your post, above, you seem not to know what contradiction is in the context you think you are proposing it, because you didn't provide a clear example or answered my question about contradiction you claimed was occuring. to be using the alleged "satanic verses" as your illustration, saying satan cast some recitations "into his tongue" will not do. If Allah is protecting Muhammad [SA] will it not be impossible for satan to cast some recitations into the tongue of the prophet [SA], especially when Allah is unlike the God Whose heart grieves or repenting God? it is impossible for Allah to be The Protector and satan will have a chance to influence what Allah is "guarding". when Truth is guaranteed there is no change for lie to filter in. Allah is not tired or weary, so unlike other Gods, He is Aware 100% of the time. so there is no existence of your "the timely intervention of Allah saved the situation . . ." because Allah is never unaware.


its obvious to everyone here except you and those who intend to egg you on on this path you are now looking bad because your explanation is guess work at best and will not satisfy anyone with any amount of truth in him because your "the contradiction could be due to satan intervention . . ." shows you are just writing without any proof.


Quran is in the heart of muslims today and it is possible in any community and any time to produce from scratch the whole Quran exactly as it is, from the memory of those who have memorized it. the level of commitment of the people of today is nothing compared to the level of commitment to islam of the companions [RA]. it is them you are talking about thinking that they are the lukewarm type of faith as the people Jesus castigated as people of little faith.

Dialect was not the problem I repeat. You said people who accepted islam came from various places to Medina. Wouldn't Muhammad want to know them before dealing with them? Wouldn't he know them well before he would give them recitations? It is a matter of commonsense that he had to know the people he was using. There shouldn't be any argument as to whether he knew their dialect or not. He must know. Besides, as I said before, dialect is not capable of changing the meaning of the quran.

You also asked for the contradictions which I am talking about. It is a well known fact that Allah if he the omniscient God shouldn't make mistakes or commit blunders. Isn't it? But see below a few of the blunders found in the quran, possible as a result of the differences in the memorizers' recitations:

1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).


2. Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).


3. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).


4. Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
2. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).


5. Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).


6. Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).


7. Is wine consumption good or bad?
1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

@ RoyPCain

I tell you the truth, the problem was not that of diatet. Muhammad must know where the reciters came from before he gave them the recitations. He would not expect them to pronounce the same way because they didn't come from the same area. So dialet was not the problem.

Example of contradictions you ask? Contradiction could come in any form. Muhammad too had that problem when satan cast some recitations into his tongue, the timely intervention of Allah saved the situation and that was because Muhammad was hearing from Allah. Therefore the contradictions could be due to satan's intervention and could have changed the entire message of Allah. Unfortunately, the writter had no means of verification. He could only guess.

The issue of the whole community involved in compiling the quran made no difference. It was not the whole members of the community that had the recitation in their memory. If they were up to 5 million in number, they would have to listen to the memorizers. The community had nothing to contribute to the recitations.

Therefore the quran remains a guess-work.

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel: you asked me to clarify matters for you, including answering your two questions. i did clarify and answered your two questions. it is up to you to accept what i said or reject part or the whole of it. the truth is firm and there is nothing you or i can do about the past.

if you do not see the Guaranteeing of Allah to protect The Quran in the story of the muslims you penned above to get a complete "Quran" to syria/shams, from the headquarters where Islam was completes from the company of those who were there at the completion, even were there from the start, unlike the dominance of Paul in new testament, i really cant help your mind.

if you walked into a dialogue with your younger brother making a case for a high fence in addition to cctv and neighborhood watch so that your home is protected and no one who is not supposed to be on the property can be prevented, if you do not understand that also included thieves, i can see why you are still fighting about discrepancies of recitations of the Quran, while you are trying hard to rope-in the 'incorruptibility of the' bible along in here. again, if nothing else, jeremiah tells us that ot is corrupted by the pen of the scribe. nt itself tells us that nt is corrupt by the 4 stories about jesus [instead of the gospel that was revealed to jesus which jesus preached to people] which none of them is a complete or accurate account, because where any intersect with another, they almost always have different details pointing to different holy ghost inspiring each of them [more like 4 holy ghosts for 4 different inspirations].

i dont know where you are from. if you are a yoruba person, egba will speak/recite yoruba oral story with egba accent. ijebu will recite with ijebu accent. oyo may say shin instead of sin, ondo will say beeni while ibadan will say benshin. ekiti will say ora instead of rora. to standardize, if the story is to be taken to bini, maybe it is eko yoruba that we all settle upon, even though i prefer yoruba ibadan. this is the case with the condition of expansion problem where the solution is made easy as the ruler in madina did by producing Qurans from Quran. 'different recitations' is mercy from Allah on muslims so that an indian or chinese who l instead of r is understood in consideration of his cultural quality, just like an arab will say baber when he really means paper. it is the Guidance of Allah guaranteed that did not make the next generation of Muslims, like Paul in the next generation after the disciples over ride what was on the ground. The muslims believed Muhammad [SA] and when he said the best generation is his [sahaba [RA]] with him, they did not fight the sahaba like Paul did peter, telling/challenging peter to his face.


how such a solution is guess work is only from your own desire to deny the obvious. it producing the Quran was an experiment, it should win nobel prize, every year for literature every year, in addition, economics, medicine, chemistry, etc.

I cannot see you guys dancing out of this trouble. You are trying to create the impression that the differences were dialectical. That is very untrue. The fear that was expressed in the hadith was that the quran would disappear as the Jews and Christians allowed the torah and injil to disappear. Quran cannot disappear due to dialectical differences. Whether it is recited in yoruba egba, ijebu, oyo or ijesha, it would still convey the same meaning, there was no reason for them to entertain any fear on this. What actually was wrong was the contradictions in the recitations of the memorizers, in which case the writer has no choice but to gamble on which recitations were correct. I totally agree that the writer did a guess-work trying to know the correct among the different recitations.

FOLYKAZE: To those christians shouting jesus brought peace

Matthew 10:34

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

You are ignorant of the meaning of Jesus statement. Which war did Jesus fight? Who did He kill?

@ golpen

You seem to enjoy it so much when somebody is silent for you because it is no more reasonable to continue with you as you are not making sense. You are an expert in words of abuse and war of words. These are in noway convincing points. If it is one-on-discussion, people like you resort to physical combat. I wouldn't blame you for taking after your prophet who was a warlord, the only prophet in history who led war for evangelism, killing those he was supposed to save.

All of you anti-Christ are working so hard to discredit the Bible and you cannot succeed. The power of the Almighty God that is backing the Bible cannot be overcome. Despite your accusations againt the Christians and the Bible, God continues working in us and through us. Jesus is relating with us till today. He is alive. If there is anything we are doing wrong, He will tell us. If He is silent, it means He could tolerate it.

The quran you praise so much has no power and life inside it. Muslims cannot manifest Allah's power publicly until they go into the secret places to make arabian charms (tira and hontu). Demonic activities from the Devil. If quran is the word of God, why is there no miraculous force in it? God's words contain God's power. I tell you the truth, it is only in Christiendom God manifests His Almightiness: the blind made to see, the death raised to life, the barren made fruitful, sicknesses healed etc. I know you will say they are done by the Devil because you believe your own God does not have power but the Devil. Your own God is not good to humanity by giving them miracles but the Devil.

For your information, your quran has been discovered to be a guess work. The writer of the quran after Muhammad, wrote it when there were differences in memorizers recitations and there was noway he could know the correct ones as he could not hear from Allah to confirm. Tell me, is it reasonable to say such a book written from guess works is reliable? How can you say it is holy?

[Quran 53:19]
Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza,

[Quran 53:20]
And Manat, the third, the last?

[Quran 53:21]
What! for you the males and for Him the females!

[Quran 53:22]
This indeed is an unjust division!

[Quran 53:23]
They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord.

Lat, Uzzra and Manat are all known idols among Arabs.Why would Allah reconcile them and removing the division among them? When did God start to have relationship with idols? What is Allah and Islam about?

ayenny02: So you want to use style to derail from the topic, I have asked you many question and you refused to answer it, I will advice to you to cool down to read the hadith very well becos I can see you u r shaking

Prophet Mohammad (saw)said, "By the one whose hands my life is in, surely the Son of  Mary(as) will descend amongst you as a just ruler."

Just clear statement that he said "by the one who own his soul I.e God and continue with the statement that surely jesus will descend amongst muslim as a just ruler


One of our way we honour him is that we pray to him whenever his name is mentioned by saying ALAYHIM SALAM WA SALAM


There is no saviour besides GOD:

I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour. (Isaiah 43:11)

Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me. (Hosea 13:4)

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Luke 1:47)

These verses refute the Christian phrase “Jesus is my lord and saviour”. There is no Saviour besides Yahweh! Jesus never claimed to be “Lord and Saviour” to the Jews. He explicitly said “I do not accept praise from men” (John 5:41) “In vain do they worship me” (Matthew 15:9, Mark 7:7) and “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) etc

All your Bible quotations are out of context. You did not take into consideration what is said before and after the statements. You also did not take into account the event that gave rise to the statements. In other words, your defence is invalid. The stereo-typed answers you post were not well researched.

But are you saying your prophet didn't know what he was saying? Okay, I can see, you are more knowledgeable than the prophet. That is very good of you.

@ayenny02: I notice you always skip important points and hammer the unimportant ones. What do you see to Muhammad referring to Jesus as his Lord/God in the hadith you quoted? The One (God) who holds Muhammad's life. Thank God it is in English not arabic, everybody can read and understand. JESUS IS LORD EVEN TO MUHAMMAD.

Please how do honour Jesus in islam? Your saying that Jesus is a prophet like other prophets has be been refuted by Muhammad himself.

Since Jesus hold our lives, muslims inclusive, you better turn to Him. Muhammad cannot save himself talk less of others. Muhammad himself will account for his life in front of Jesus. I'm sure you know Jesus is not among the people crossing from hell to paradise, which Muhammad will lead. Jesus is a ruler in heaven not the ruled. I advise you stop your posts and defence for islam that does not offer salvation to anybody.

@ayenny02: You are quoting me out of context. I said Jesus is coming for his church, the body of Christ who he died for and that the Christians are the members of his church. If you are not a member, he is not coming for you.

I'm so happy Muhammad said his life was in the hands of Jesus. He recorgnised Jesus as the One holding his life. This shows who is superior. Can a prophet hold the life of his fellow prophet? No. It is only God who has that power. In other words, Muhammad acknowledged Jesus as God. I will bookmark that hadith to educate the muslims.

You do not know the interpretation of spiritual words. Yes, no more cross. Jesus is coming to establish a government of 1000 years and not a religion. Only members of his church will be there, others will be thrown into hell. Pig is the figurative appearance of the Devil. The hadith is not talking about food or meat. It is talking about the coming of Jesus. He is coming to destroy the pig (the Devil).

One God. Muslims can not woo Jesus with one-God issue. Judaism too teaches one-God. If one-God is what is needed for salvation, Jesus would not have come becos he met them practicing one-God. If the Jew could not attract Jesus with one-God, muslims cannot.

You said you honour Jesus more than anybody in the world. So you honour Jesus more than Muhammad? That is big hypocrisy. You honour him only for the purpose of this thread.

@golpen: I don't believe truthman and nextpart did surrender or ran away, it was simply that they could not cope with your abusive style of arguments. You said you got infuriated and that was why you resorted to abuses, an evidence that you have no points. You know Christians don't fight jihad.

You are a type of person that when is on the ground being seriously beaten would be shouting I'm a winner! winner! winner!

Sometimes it is reasonable to shut up on an argument if you discover the type of person you are argueing with. If it would degrade me to the same level with somebody who is misfiring all the time, I had better withdraw. Do you see a normal person engaging in argument with a lunatic on the street? I can see the true nature of islam is gradually coming up from inside of you. Instead of engaging in jihad with you, I will run away because I have no training in jihad. I'm afraid, you are likely to be a graduate of Muslims Jihad College, Iwo where muslims are trained how to use sword, karate and judo to fight for Allah. Jesus who we follow is not a warlord nor is he a womanizer.

Nobody has lost any argument here but you. It is your style to lose and shout you are a winner. The argument is about Allah saying nothing can change his word and you muslims say, no people can change it and infact they had changed his earlier revelations, Torah and Gospel. Is that not the core of the argument? Other things you are laying emphasis upon is only to muddle up for your lag to be covered.

I dont't need to challenge the quran, it is already challenged. If men succeeded in changing Allah's Torah and Gospel, what justification did he have to ask people to challenge him on the quran? Had he not failed twice before?

I want to leave you and your co-muslims with these ringing loud in your hear:

- Allah said his word cannot change. But how did men change his Torah and Gospel? Or how did the people throw away his Books that they can no longer be found and could not stop them?

- Who is this Allah whose actions do not match with his words.

As there is nothing sensible left to talk with you, I want to say 'O dabo' (bye-bye).

@ayenny02: You are too conscious of religion as a muslim. God is not interested in religion. The Jews were so good in religious activities yet they were wrong and that was why Jesus came. I don't think the muslims are better than the Pharisees in religious services, still Jesus condemned their religion. Jesus did not lay any emphasis on religion but following him. Following his teachings.

You people give honour to Muhammad and have no connection with Jesus. Do you mention Jesus in your routine prayers or religious activities. Is it not when you want to argue you remember him. How do expect him to come for you? It is certain that he will not come for muslims who are on the same path with those who constituted themselves as the enemies of his mission on earth.

Let me ask you, what did Jesus teach for about three and half years. Teachings that took up to that number of years should be as voluminous as a many text books. Where are they recorded in your quran and yet you claim you recorgnise him. Jesus is not coming for those who do not follow his doctrines.

Maybe you have another Jesus that is coming for the muslims but certainly not Jesus Christ of Nasareth.

Anyway you have the right to your opinion and belief. You can even claim Jesus is the leader of islam and his disciples are muslims observing ablution, praying five times daily and facing Kaaba, the exact way moon-god worshipers were worshiping before islam, which islam came to enforce.

@ayenny02: The link you gave makes the quran invalid. All it attempts to do is to disqualify Jesus as the Messiah. Muhammad said Jesus is Messiah. Quran said Jesus is Messiah. If Muhammad was wrong in his hadith as a man, was Allah too wrong in the quran. One of the things I notice about the muslims is that they are ready to defend their religion even against the quran.

Somebody said jokingly that if a muslim is praying and somebody comes to him saying Allah is calling him, he will say wait I'm coming, let me finish my prayer. You have more allegiance to the religion than Allah who owns it.

The name 'Christian' was not given by Jesus but by the people of Antioch who saw the disciples' behaviours and noted they were like Christ. Christianity is only an appellation. Nobody is going to heaven because is a Christian. Christ is coming for his church, that is those who have his Spirit.

The church is the body of Christ, those who have the Holy Spirit, not the building of the church as in Ephesians 5:25
''Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it''. He will surely come for those to whom he gave his body.

Jesus Christ is coming for his church, it is just that members of his church are in Christiendom. He is not coming for every Christian but his church.

How can he come for the muslims who are not interacting with him. Those who say Jesus did not come to save them. I am sure if you hear somebody mention Jesus, you know the kind of hatred that emerges from inside you. How do you expect him to come for you? It is not possible.

Quran says Jesus was not killed but disappeared to heaven. Why did he have to disappear? It was because some people made an attempt on his life. What for? Because he called himself the Son of God. His disciples were killed for the same reason. Muslims are following the path of those who made themselves Jesus enemies and yet expect him to come for them. Never.

dexmond: OP you have tried. However, what you posted was your opinion which I respect. You did not tell us what Islamic scholars said on the matter, neither did you point specifically to any Fatwa. In conclusion, you spoke your mind.

......you spoke your mind. Yes, especially if you compare tbaba's good message with combatant verses in the quran.

golpen: @pointblank

I think we have agreed that the story is a plot to contaminate the image of the prophet (S A W) and I'm using this opportunity to call for Allah's deserved reward for who so ever initiated that false story and those who carry it around without looking into the logic and the sentiments.

You need to shake off the dogma in you and take a travel to the land of rationality. If you ask me to tell the world to believe in the torah which may be found in the bible, what of the corrupted ones. That brings me to the topic here...the first five books in the OT is supposed to be revealed to Moses which is the torah right?, so what is the name of the book revealed to Jesus christ himself. 'The bible' is not an answer, because the new testament compruses of books from different men after his death and none of those books is His. I agree the first five books of the bible is that of moses, but it has been corrupted, from the first chapter. Get the debate I asked @nextpart to get to find out more. And because a higher percentage of the contents of the bible are of men, we have conflicting and contradicting views, leading to the confusion of millions of christians. If there is anything that looks like the torah in the bible and has a standing authencity, there is a more updated version of the same information in the Qur'an, so muslims don't need the bible at all.

This takes us back to the topic here; with the debates and arguments so far, what do you have to say of the topic. The question is;

"Has the bible been corrupted or not?" (Answers with proof to back your points pls, before any other claims). Thanks.

If the first five books of Moses were corrupted from the first chapter according to you, it still amounts to the fact that Allah was unable to protect Torah otherwise men would not have been able to corrupt it. Allah said nothing can change his words and yet men corrupted it. Man decision came to pass against the wish of Allah.

By implication, there would not have been need to send the quran if torah and injil were not corrupted. Many parts of the quran were put into writing after Muhammad's death, how are we so sure that the quran itself had not been corrupted as Allah was unable to protect his earlier revelations.

How are we sure those who wrote the quran put down the exact revelations received by Muhammad as Allah as usual would promise to protect his word but would fail in doing so in the end? You should agree with me that it was usual of Allah not protecting his words as he failed in protecting Torah and again Gospel. What power did Allah acquire after he lost control of Torah and Gospel that would enable him to protect the quran?

I therefore hereby submit that since Allah was unable to protect Torah and Gospel the quran must have been corrupted too due to His inability to protect His words, hence so many things it says against the true identity of Jesus. There is no certainty that Muhammad himself did not have input in the quran as Allah will usually allow men to have their ways. Thank you.