Christistruth00:

gregyboy:

samuk:


I am not sure you comprehend my reply to you. I challenged any one of you to present evidence of Benin having brotherly relationship with Yoruba before 1890, you are submitting 1937 and 1968 fabrications.

The nature of Benin relationship with Yoruba before the fall of Benin in 1897 was purely that of coloniser, Benin simply colonised Yoruba land.

The stories of Benin being related to Yoruba started after 1890. Go back and provide evidences earlier than 1890 or wait for sister and let see what lies she comes up with this time.

gregyboy:


To the future generation reading this,

That is a colonial arrangement it wasnt done by reality before colonization the sitting arrangement was done by favouritsm and population


If it was done on historical ground only the oba of benin would be sitting with prince Philip

samuk:

"The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king." - Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36

Asibong Okon was referring to this

"This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King." - United Empire, Volume 2 (1911), p. 620

The Ooni was politically elevated above the Alaafin after 1824.

samuk:


I am not sure you comprehend my reply to you. I challenged any one of you to present evidence of Benin having brotherly relationship with Yoruba before 1890, you are submitting 1937 and 1968 fabrications.

The nature of Benin relationship with Yoruba before the fall of Benin in 1897 was purely that of coloniser, Benin simply colonised Yoruba land.

The stories of Benin being related to Yoruba started after 1890. Go back and provide evidences earlier than 1890 or wait for sister and let see what lies she comes up with this time.

samuk:
I understand your pains. The Oduduwa myth is one very important myths the Yoruba desperately want to believe to be true, but unfortunately, it's what it is, a fabrication born out of myth without historical evidence backing it.

Benin/Ife history was concocted after the fall of Benin empire in 1897.

There were no mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in the eyewitness documented Benin history between 1400s to 1800s.

I have severally challenged TAO11 to show such evidence but I suspect I may have to wait until the chicken grows teeth before she can find such evidence.

samuk:
...

In summary:

[s]1. There wasn't Benin/Ife relationship in Benin history until 1897, after the fall of Benin empire.[/s]

[s]2. Between 1400s to 1890 vast parts of Yoruba land was either directly or indirectly ruled, colonised or influenced by Benin.[/s]

[s]The other parts such as Ilorin was under the Fulani.[/s]

3. The first time the Europeans visited the hinterland of Yoruba was 1824.

The Alaafin of Oyo was the leader of Yoruba people, not the Ooni of Ife.

4. Any history of Yoruba before 1824 largely centred around the coastline of Yoruba not the hinterland.

5. The current Benin/Ife connection is purely political history not back up by historical evidence.

6. There are only two great kingdoms in Nigeria, Benin and Fulani's Sokoto caliphate.

Benin dominated the Nigeria space for over 500 years.

The Fulani took over in the 1800s and still nominating.

7. The Ooni is not even the spiritual leader of most Yoruba people. The Yoruba people being mostly muslims, the Sultan of Sokoto who have to sight the moon before the commencement of Islamic festivities in Nigeria is the spiritual leader of more than half the population of Yoruba people.

8. Yoruba were once under Benin, today they are under the Fulani.

I know how you guys desperately want the Oba of Benin to be Yoruba, but sorry to break your heart, he is not Yoruba and has no Yoruba ancestry

The Yoruba are not the only ones claiming the Oba of Benin, the Igbo and Igala also have their claims. We only hear more of the Yoruba claims because you guys are more vocal with your claim.

TAO11 opinions and assumptions doesn't amount to history, I am not interested in any of her shenanigans unless she can show me evidence in either Benin or Yoruba history before 1824 that says the Oba of Benin was related to Yoruba.

Yoruba hinterland eyewitness historical accounts may be relatively young haven't only began in 1824 compared to Benin, there are avalanches of Benin eyewitnesses historical accounts spanning over 400 years for TAO11 and any other Yoruba to research and provide evidences of Benin/Ife relationship before 1824.

No matter how long a lie is told, it can never become truth.

Unless you guys can provide historical evidence backing your claims, you guys can continue to wallow in your lies.

Olu317:


Yet Bini king has a Yoruba panegyric ?¿ . You must be a real joke.

After the demise of every Oba Bini, the chosen prince visits Ileife to confirm his acceptance as the Heir to his ancestors throne.

Yoruba introduced her ifaodu to you so that, Yoruba language were learned of by your ancestors. The Yoruba Ifaodu which is more than religious angle,since it comprises God's doctrine, philosophy, alchemy, geography, agriculture science , history etc. And you still boast ?

You came up with fallacious information which has been debunked with various evidence from researchers from within and Western world.


Intentionally Yorubas taught your ancestors sculpture manufacturing so as to keep record of her descendants in your enclave as evidence of Yorubas overlord over Edoland

Yoruba taught your ancestors bead production.
Yorubas were the first to ride horses in Edo during Oranmiyan's time

It's forever a fact that Yoruba taught your ancestors a different civilization that improve your ways of lives.


Instead to accept your fate, as a people whom Yoruba Race stumbled up on by mere chance, you edowarriors turn Oduduwa as your Igoso ewodo's son ,called Ekerledan .

Meanwhile Ekerledan was known in Ughoton as its founder but to you e-edowariors claimed he ressurected at Ileife as Olofin Oshin Oduduwa ? Lies will not harm you people below cruise control.

Funny, Ughoton aborigine attested to the fact that, the town was founded by Ekerledan and not oduduwa. His descendants are still in the place till tomorrow. So, stop peddling unfounded storyline likened to Romeo and Juliet .


How was Ekerland not known amongst strong Yoruba ancient time,since you claim, Yoruba were your slave ? Are you not seeing that it was Yoruba fighting Yoruba due to a Yoruba's Oba bini's friend's interests ? Read Ikere's history to have knowledge of what happened in Ado versus Ikere's war between them.

Unfortunately for Bini kangaroo approach makes her a weakly at every unplanned war prosecution. Afterall, whatever interest of hers ,never goes beyond few years or more after which she's eventually being chased out or assimilated back as Yoruba descendants

Instance are there, some of you, who claim to have maternal bloodline to Yorubas are more comfortable to identify with Yoruba bloodline than even your partrilineal famiies .

TAO11:
Like I have noted twice earlier:

Whenever Benin e-miscreants get humiliated on one subject, it is their modus operandi to quietly flee to another subject hoping to find consolation — only to further get humiliated again.

This fact is playing out here with samuk-the laughing stock. Come along with me.

Starting with the word “mYtH” which you often throw in whenever the going gets rough for you:

Meaning 1: A traditional story, especially one about the early history of a people.

Meaning 2: A fiction.

So, whenever you find historians (from any part of the world) discussing the king Oduduwa, you should — going forward — quickly wake yourself up to the reality that historians don’t dwell on fictions.

It is terrible enough that I had to break this down to a ‘likely adult’.

As per your laughable claim that this is a FaBriCaTiOn without historical evidence; what people of dignity do whenever they make a claim is that they proceed to prove such claims they make.

Do the same if you have an atom of dignity, and if you wish to be taken seriously by the readers.

CoNcOcTeD? LMAO

Who prepared the supposed CoNcOcTiOn? And what proof have you that a CoNcOcTiOn was prepared?

Again, if you have an atom of dignity and if you wish to be taken seriously by the readers, then proceed to adduce evidence for your claim of CoNcOcTiOn.

This is not true.

Eyewitness testimony/writings from the late-1400s & early-1500s which references the monarch of the Ife kingdom & his suzerainty over Benin kingdom exist.

NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language — the symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its [consonant] sound as in this audio sample.

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, [color=#000099]except the Ooni of Ife.

In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that
from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá— i.e. “The place from where the sun rises”.

For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:

(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.

(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 89., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).

This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source was a certain spokesperson of the Benin oba.

Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).

Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”

Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this lord) are early maps.

There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni [in Latin] annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.

These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.

In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.[/color]

Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.

The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.

The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament helps art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.

What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.

Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years]. ~ D. Calvocoressi & N. David, “A New Survey,” 1979, p. 19.

For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:

(A) William. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc

(B) Frank Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.

(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.

In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.

In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

If lying to yourself brings you peace of mind, who am I to ask you to stop lying. Lol.

Cc: rhektor, gomojam, lifeisgood12, nisai, nisiw365, Christistruth00.

TAO11:
Lol. Poor gregyboy, your attachment was debunked in the very comment you quoted.

Going forward, make sure to read the comments you spend your time replying to. Doing so helps make you appear less dum.b.

Your attachment is found on page 37 of A.F.C. Ryder’s “A Reconsideration of the Ife-Benin Relationship”.

Guess when it was published! Take a wild guess! It was published in 1965. Prior to when the debate was heated in the 1970s/1980s.

A good part of my comment which you MiStAkEnLy missed reads as follows:

“NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language — the symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample].

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife. …”

More specifically, Ryder’s hypothesis (not even a conclusion) was devastatingly debunked in R. Horton’s “Ancient Ife” published in the year 1979.

Others like R.C.C. Law (1973), A. Obayemi (1976), F. Willet (1982), R. Smith (1988), Adedotun (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), A. Knobler (2016), et al. have all subsequently reached the same conclusion as Robin Horton’s.

In other words, engage the evidence or ‘go to sleep’.

Shikena!

Cc: Olu317, Christistruth00, nisai, nisiw365, lifeisgood12

samuk:
I repeat Oduduwa was simply a mythical figure,

this is the reason if you asked five people, 2 Edo and 3 Yoruba, the origin of Oduduwa, you are likely to get the following replies:

1. He was from Saudi Arabia
2. He was from Egypt
3. He was originally from Ife
4. He was from Benin
5. He is a myth

Anybody that doubt me should carry out a Google search on the origin of Oduduwa.

Ife wasn't Organe

The Ogane that was referred to by the Portuguese in the 15th century was described to be in a location east of Benin, Ife is west,

the Ogane was said to be a distance of about 900 miles, Ife is about 174 miles from Benin,

Organe was said to have a travelling time from Benin of 20 moons (20 months)

Benin to Ife couldn't possibly have been travelled in 20 months because by 1603, 2 messages were sent from Lagos garrison to Benin daily and Lagos is further away from Benin in distance compared to Ife.

The reason no one have been able to locate this Organe written about in the 15th century Benin history is because it was argued that it probably didn't exist.

There is absolutely nothing in name Of Ogane, distance, direction of travel and location from Benin city that slightly resembles Ife. Yoruba always want to equate Organe to Ife because of their desperation to link Ife to Benin by all means.

If Benin really have relationship with Ife between 1170 to 1897, a period of 800 years of which over 400 years of it was documented by eyewitnesses on the Benin side and at least 70 years of the 800 years documented on the Yoruba side stating from 1824, why was Ife, Oranmiyan and Oduduwa not mentioned once in either the 400 years Benin documented eyewitness historical accounts or Yoruba 70 years eyewitness historical accounts.

One of the few places in Yoruba land that was never mentioned in Benin history until after the fall of Benin in 1897 is Ife. Most towns and rulers in eastern Yoruba, the Alaafin and Lagos were all mentioned but not Ife, Oranmiyan and Oduduwa.

How could Benin have had interactions with Ife in the way the Yoruba want everyone believe and yet not a single mentioned in the historical books.

Benin was a very active kingdom both in war and traditions, if there was an interaction with Ife, it would have be mentioned severally throughout the periods of written records starting from late 1400s to late 1890s, but nothing was said about Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan until after the fall of Benin in 1897.

No aspects of Benin lives was left undocumented by early Europeans, the number of roads in the city, the type of food, trade, traditional institutions, religion, rituals, physical descriptions of the people, architecture, government, area of influence, military installations or garrisons throughout the empire, military strength, internal civil wars, area conquered, etc. In the over 400 years of Benin written history, there is not a single mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan the supposed founders of the kingdom.

Yet TAO11 wants everyone to believe Organe was Ife.

Even if she is right how come Organe was only mentioned once in late 15th century? This is because Organe wasn't Ife.

Yoruba are not the only people that claim to have founded the Benin kingdom, several other tribes have made several similar claims ranging from being the aboriginal inhabitants of the kingdom to even laying claim to the Oba himself just the way the Yoruba have been doing since the fall of Benin kingdom.

Incase the Yoruba don't know, the Igbos also have similar claims to theirs. Some Igbos believe the Oba of Benin was originally from Nri.

The Benin are so sure and confident with themselves that, we will not feel less of ourselves if it turns out the Oba wasn't originally from Benin. Most of us wouldn't care about the origin of the Oba in as far it can be proven with historical evidence.

The problem with the Yoruba claim is lack of evidence to back up the claims.

Like I mentioned to TAO11 before and I will repeat again, just show us evidence of Benin/Ife relationship as late as 1890, just seven years before the British invasion of Benin. Let's even forget the period 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, 1800 - 1890. This is a long period of time. Just give me something in 1890 that suggests Benin/Ife relationship.

There is nothing unique about Yoruba fabricated Benin/Ife relationship claims, rather it's the uniqueness of Benin in world history that is prompting all these claims.

We can not pretend to know it all, any tribes that lay claim to Benin must provide historically backed evidence to be taken seriously.

TAO11:
Lol. Poor gregyboy, your attachment was debunked in the very comment you quoted.

Going forward, make sure to read the comments you spend your time replying to. Doing so helps make you appear less dum.b.

Your attachment is found on page 37 of A.F.C. Ryder’s “A Reconsideration of the Ife-Benin Relationship”.

Guess when it was published! Take a wild guess! It was published in 1965. Prior to when the debate was heated in the 1970s/1980s.

A good part of my comment which you MiStAkEnLy missed reads as follows:

“NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language — the symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample].

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife. …”

More specifically, Ryder’s hypothesis (not even a conclusion) was devastatingly debunked in R. Horton’s “Ancient Ife” published in the year 1979.

Others scholars like R.C.C. Law (1973), A. Obayemi (1976), F. Willet (1982), R. Smith (1988), Adedotun (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Knobler (2016), et al. have all subsequently reached the same conclusion as Robin Horton reached when he debunked A.F.C. Ryder.

In other words, engage the evidence or ‘go to sleep’.

Shikena!

Cc: Olu317, Christistruth00, nisai, nisiw365, lifeisgood12

samuk:
I repeat Oduduwa was simply a mythical figure , this is the reason if you asked five people, 2 Edo and 3 Yoruba, the origin of Oduduwa, you are likely to get the following replies:

1. He was from Saudi Arabia
2. He was from Egypt
3. He was originally from Ife
4. He was from Benin
5. He is a myth

Anybody that doubt me should carry out a Google search on the origin of Oduduwa.

Ife wasn't Organe

The Ogane that was referred to by the Portuguese in the 15th century was described to be in a location east of Benin, Ife is west, the Ogane was said to be a distance of about 900 miles, Ife is about 174 miles from Benin, Organe was said to have a travelling time from Benin of 20 moons (20 months), Benin to Ife couldn't possibly have been travelled in 20 months because by 1603, 2 messages were sent from Lagos garrison to Benin daily and Lagos is further away from Benin in distance compared to Ife.

The reason no one have been able to locate this Organe written about in the 15th century Benin history is because it was argued that it probably didn't exist.

There is absolutely nothing in name Of Ogane, distance, direction of travel and location from Benin city that slightly resembles Ife. Yoruba always want to equate Organe to Ife because of their desperation to link Ife to Benin by all means.

If Benin really have relationship with Ife between 1170 to 1897, a period of 800 years of which over 400 years of it was documented by eyewitnesses on the Benin side and at least 70 years of the 800 years documented on the Yoruba side stating from 1824, why was Ife, Oranmiyan and Oduduwa not mentioned once in either the 400 years Benin documented eyewitness historical accounts or Yoruba 70 years eyewitness historical accounts.

One of the few places in Yoruba land that was never mentioned in Benin history until after the fall of Benin in 1897 is Ife. Most towns and rulers in eastern Yoruba, the Alaafin and Lagos were all mentioned but not Ife, Oranmiyan and Oduduwa.

How could Benin have had interactions with Ife in the way the Yoruba want everyone believe and yet not a single mentioned in the historical books.

Benin was a very active kingdom both in war and traditions, if there was an interaction with Ife, it would have be mentioned severally throughout the periods of written records starting from late 1400s to late 1890s, but nothing was said about Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan until after the fall of Benin in 1897.

No aspects of Benin lives was left undocumented by early Europeans, the number of roads in the city, the type of food, trade, traditional institutions, religion, rituals, physical descriptions of the people, architecture, government, area of influence, military installations or garrisons throughout the empire, military strength, internal civil wars, area conquered, etc. In the over 400 years of Benin written history, there is not a single mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan the supposed founders of the kingdom.

Yet TAO11 wants everyone to believe Organe was Ife. Even if she is right how come Organe was only mentioned once in late 15th century? This is because Organe wasn't Ife.

Yoruba are not the only people that claim to have founded the Benin kingdom, several other tribes have made several similar claims ranging from being the aboriginal inhabitants of the kingdom to even laying claim to the Oba himself just the way the Yoruba have been doing since the fall of Benin kingdom.

Incase the Yoruba don't know, the Igbos also have similar claims of theirs. Some Igbos believe the Oba of Benin was originally from Nri.

The Benin are so sure and confident with themselves that, we will not feel less of ourselves if it turns out the Oba wasn't originally from Benin. Most of us wouldn't care about the origin of the Oba in as far it can be proven with historical evidence.

The problem with the Yoruba claim is lack of evidence to back up the claims.

Like I mentioned to TAO11 before and I will repeat again, just show us evidence of Benin/Ife relationship as late as 1890, just seven years before the British invasion of Benin. Let's even forget the period 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, 1800 - 1890. This is a long period of time. Just give me something in 1890 that suggests Benin/Ife relationship.

There is nothing unique about Yoruba fabricated Benin/Ife relationship claims, rather it's the uniqueness of Benin in world history that is prompting all these claims.

We can not pretend to know it all, any tribes that lay claim to Benin must provide historically backed evidence to be taken seriously.

People may be tempted to laugh off the Igbo claim, but don't forget this is how the Yoruba claim began and the similarities between both claims are clear enough.

One can't discount future intellectual fight between Yoruba and Igbo on the historical ownership of Benin. As times goes by, Benin history ages like old wine in a bottle that everybody will want to own. This is more so because of the nearly 500 years documented historical gap between Benin and the other two tribes of Yoruba and Igbo.

Below is a similar Igbo claim.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4xXMdK8HYQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytmPqtA65YY

gregyboy:



You want her to show you evidence.. You want her to use her hands to end her career

The last time i asked for an exact quotation from the Portuguese who visited lagos in 1472
And named lagos lago de Curamo,

She told me the quote hasn't been digitalizsd yet... It was so funny to grasp but at thesame time i felt pity for her, something tells me we are chatting with a very ugly hopeless lady that finds relieve trolling with niggas on the internet

samuk:




Ajayi Crowder was probably the first Yoruba to mention Benin in his writings in the 1870s but never mentioned Benin/Ife relationship.

By the 1870s Yoruba returnee slaves with western education had started writing about Yoruba and it wasn't until after the fall of Benin in 1897 that another Yoruba former slave, Samuel Johnson linked Benin with Yoruba in a way that suggested that they were the same people.

Ajayi Crowder travelled through the Benin areas to Asaba and to the east in his missionary works and wrote about the people. It was in his writings in 1875 that he mentioned the people of Asaba tracing their origin to Benin but said there were Igbo who then recently migrated from the east to joined them, whilst Ajayi Crowder was in Asaba, he wrote that the people still used some Benin words.

Those that argued that Asaba original inhabitants were from the east, I have requested for eyewitness historical evidence earlier than 1875 to prove their claim, I am still waiting just the way I have been waiting for the Yoruba to provide anything that support Benin/Ife relationship earlier than 1890.

If Benin had any relationship with Ife Ajayi Crowder would have written about it.

samuk:
I repeat Oduduwa was simply a mythical figure , this is the reason if you asked five people, 2 Edo and 3 Yoruba, the origin of Oduduwa, you are likely to get the following replies:

1. He was from Saudi Arabia
2. He was from Egypt
3. He was originally from Ife
4. He was from Benin
5. He is a myth

Anybody that doubt me should carry out a Google search on the origin of Oduduwa.

Ife wasn't Organe

The Ogane that was referred to by the Portuguese in the 15th century was described to be in a location east of Benin, Ife is west, the Ogane was said to be a distance of about 900 miles, Ife is about 174 miles from Benin, Organe was said to have a travelling time from Benin of 20 moons (20 months), Benin to Ife couldn't possibly have been travelled in 20 months because by 1603, 2 messages were sent from Lagos garrison to Benin daily and Lagos is further away from Benin in distance compared to Ife.

The reason no one have been able to locate this Organe written about in the 15th century Benin history is because it was argued that it probably didn't exist.

There is absolutely nothing in name Of Ogane, distance, direction of travel and location from Benin city that slightly resembles Ife. Yoruba always want to equate Organe to Ife because of their desperation to link Ife to Benin by all means.

If Benin really have relationship with Ife between 1170 to 1897, a period of 800 years of which over 400 years of it was documented by eyewitnesses on the Benin side and at least 70 years of the 800 years documented on the Yoruba side stating from 1824, why was Ife, Oranmiyan and Oduduwa not mentioned once in either the 400 years Benin documented eyewitness historical accounts or Yoruba 70 years eyewitness historical accounts.

One of the few places in Yoruba land that was never mentioned in Benin history until after the fall of Benin in 1897 is Ife. Most towns and rulers in eastern Yoruba, the Alaafin and Lagos were all mentioned but not Ife, Oranmiyan and Oduduwa.

How could Benin have had interactions with Ife in the way the Yoruba want everyone believe and yet not a single mentioned in the historical books.

Benin was a very active kingdom both in war and traditions, if there was an interaction with Ife, it would have be mentioned severally throughout the periods of written records starting from late 1400s to late 1890s, but nothing was said about Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan until after the fall of Benin in 1897.

No aspects of Benin lives was left undocumented by early Europeans, the number of roads in the city, the type of food, trade, traditional institutions, religion, rituals, physical descriptions of the people, architecture, government, area of influence, military installations or garrisons throughout the empire, military strength, internal civil wars, area conquered, etc. In the over 400 years of Benin written history, there is not a single mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan the supposed founders of the kingdom.

Yet TAO11 wants everyone to believe Organe was Ife. Even if she is right how come Organe was only mentioned once in late 15th century? This is because Organe wasn't Ife.

Yoruba are not the only people that claim to have founded the Benin kingdom, several other tribes have made several similar claims ranging from being the aboriginal inhabitants of the kingdom to even laying claim to the Oba himself just the way the Yoruba have been doing since the fall of Benin kingdom.

Incase the Yoruba don't know, the Igbos also have similar claims of theirs. Some Igbos believe the Oba of Benin was originally from Nri.

The Benin are so sure and confident with themselves that, we will not feel less of ourselves if it turns out the Oba wasn't originally from Benin. Most of us wouldn't care about the origin of the Oba in as far it can be proven with historical evidence.

The problem with the Yoruba claim is lack of evidence to back up the claims.

Like I mentioned to TAO11 before and I will repeat again, just show us evidence of Benin/Ife relationship as late as 1890, just seven years before the British invasion of Benin. Let's even forget the period 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, 1800 - 1890. This is a long period of time. Just give me something in 1890 that suggests Benin/Ife relationship.

There is nothing unique about Yoruba fabricated Benin/Ife relationship claims, rather it's the uniqueness of Benin in world history that is prompting all these claims.

We can not pretend to know it all, any tribes that lay claim to Benin must provide historically backed evidence to be taken seriously.

People may be tempted to laugh off the Igbo claim, but don't forget this is how the Yoruba claim began and the similarities between both claims are clear enough.

One can't discount future intellectual fight between Yoruba and Igbo on the historical ownership of Benin. As times goes by, Benin history ages like old wine in a bottle that everybody will want to own. This is more so because of the nearly 500 years documented historical gap between Benin and the other two tribes of Yoruba and Igbo.

Below is a similar Igbo claim.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4xXMdK8HYQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytmPqtA65YY

gregyboy:



The binis who decided tp soil their history for political benefit nkor......

And they decided not to retrace such fraudulent history back to default and correct it


I dont blame the yorubas for taking advantage if not that Tao11 is ab obsessed bitch we wouldn't have gone this deep in our history to find truth we will probably still believing on the made up history

Stoplying:
I would like to add that Ogané was actually a mythical kingdom led by prester john (a mythical figure), the whole thing was made up by crusaders in search of a mythical powerful christian king.

They looked for ogané in several regions of the world.

Stoplying:
[s]I would like to add that Ogané was actually a mythical kingdom led by prester john (a mythical figure), the whole thing was made up by crusaders in search of a mythical powerful christian king.

They looked for ogané in several regions of the world.[/s]

samuk:
You are right, that's why no one can locate it.

TAO11:
Ogané is not even a kiNgDoM. So, I wonder how it could then have been a mythical kingdom.

On the other hand, Ogané is a Portuguese rendering of the title/name of a king. And the information was provided by a representative of the Benin king.

The information was collected from Benin by different Europeans across different centuries.

Prester John is a different thing entirely. Prester John is a lost Christian figure in early Europe, the stories of whom the Europeans kept to heart. Whether he is a fiction or not is his problem.

Whenever the Europeans heard of a power king in a part of Africa, they quickly go to make inquiries to see if this real Afrcan king is their own lost Prester John.

One of such real African kings whom they encountered (or heard tell of) is the king of Ife who was known (and is still sometimes known) in Benin as Oghene.

It was from Benin that the Europeans heard of the Ogehen [n'Uhe] whom they transcribed as Ogané.

Clarity drives liars insane.

PS:
And he (Ogané) has long been identified by historians -- he is the Ooni of Ife.

Stoplying:
[s]Let me repeat one of my rules (there are several): if you are a yoruba and your level of education is beneath masters degree, then expect no reply from me. We are not equals, I can't possibly gain anything from an exchange with you and most of you guys reward my lecturing you with insults, only to copy me in one way or the other later on. So no more talk with the uneducated yoruba. Thank you.[/s]

TAO11:
Ogané is not even a kiNgDoM. So, I wonder how it could then have been a mythical kingdom.

On the other hand, Ogané is a Portuguese rendering of the title/name of a king. And the information was provided by a representative of the Benin king.

The information was collected from Benin by differen Europeans across different centuries.

Prester John is a different thing entirely. Prester John is a lost Christian figure in early Europe, the stories of whom the Europeans kept to heart. Whether he is a fiction or not is his problem.

Whenever the Europeans heard of a power king in a part of Africa, they quickly go to make inquiries to see if this real Afrcan king is their own lost Prester John.

One of such real African kings whom they encountered (or heard tell of) is the king of Ife who was known (and is still sometimes known) in Benin as Oghene.

It was from Benin that the Europeans heard of the Ogehen [n'Uhe] whom they transcribed as Ogané.

Clarity drives liars insane.

PS:
And he (Ogané) has long been identified by historians -- he is the Ooni of Ife.

samuk:


According to you the Benin told the Portuguese about the king of Ife in the 1400s, yet none of the Europeans who have been looking for their Prester John bothered to travel to Ife for 400 years to verify this Ife powerful king Benin talked about.

The European continuously visited Benin for 400 years and even establishing European stations in Benin and were not once curious enough to visit the founder and supposedly more powerful king of Ife.

Even if Ogane existed, the description given by the so called Benin doesn't match, the name of Ife, location, direction and distance of Ife from Benin. It's a shame that this is all you can hold on to as evidence of Benin/Ife relationship pre 1890.

samuk:
According to you the Benin told the Portuguese about the king of Ife in the 1400s,

yet none of the Europeans who have been looking for their Prester John bothered to travel to Ife for 400 years to verify this Ife powerful king Benin talked about.

The European continuously visited Benin for 400 years and even establishing European stations in Benin and were not once curious enough to visit the founder and supposedly more powerful king of Ife.

Even if Ogane existed, the description given by the so called Benin informant doesn't match, the name of Ife, location, direction and distance of Ife from Benin. It's a shame that this is all you can hold on to as evidence of Benin/Ife relationship pre 1890.

It's a good thing people are reading the demolishing of the Benin/Ife relationship fabrications.

samuk:

[s]"The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king." - Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36

Asibong Okon was referring to this

"This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King." - United Empire, Volume 2 (1911), p. 620

The Ooni was politically elevated above the Alaafin after 1824.[/s]