Image123:


Here is your style, maybe it will help. It is very clear from the Bible and from human experience. People of all colour, time, nature and economies have a God void that they fill up, which is only satisfied in the knowledge of the true God. Go into even the basest of cave men history, humans tend to attribute things to a higher power, devotions, prayers, rituals. When you are afraid or hungry or want to survive, by instinct humans ask for help from a perceived higher power. From God to luck to the sun to rivers or trees or the dead etc.

Thanks for the link. But it still falls short my brother. Let's not go far. When you were born you had no concept of God. But your instinct was to survive and avoid pain. This meant that one was ignorant of the world they found themselves. Your need to survive predates religion....you were born not knowing anything. Bar Nature vrs Nurture, the way we see the world is heavily based on our experiences. The God concept is not a biological concept but a social one. But the need to survive is biological...a state of ignorance predates knowledge and experience. One needs a reasoning(conscious) brain to consider God, one just needs to be alive to consider pain or discomfort. Your link just tells me that religion is older than we thought. Good education.

Workch:
Argumentum ad populum.
You see yourself in the celestial North Korea when you die with your dictator god receiving your praises

What a funny expectation

You are either deceiving yourself or totally off point on the subject. The fallacy you seem to just learned talks about stating that something is real because the majority thinks so. If you are intelligent enough, you will notice that i have not attempted to claim or prove anything to be real. It is a simple undebatable fact that the population of atheists in the world is a shameful minority. It doesn't prove or disprove anything, it is simply a fact of the atheist's irrelevance. i don't need to prove God to you or anyone, i don't owe you neither do i have to.

GeneralDae:

Because you opened a thread saying religon would die as people get more intelligent. So I assume you are not only very intelligent to have abandoned religion, but must have discovered a secret completely disproving the existence of God and/or religion.

You need to at least prove the existence of a god. How can one disprove what hasn't been proven to be true?

kimco:


Thanks for the link. But it still falls short my brother. Let's not go far. When you were born you had no concept of God. But your instinct was to survive and avoid pain. This meant that one was ignorant of the world they found themselves. Your need to survive predates religion....you were born not knowing anything. Bar Nature vrs Nurture, the way we see the world is heavily based on our experiences. The God concept is not a biological concept but a social one. But the need to survive is biological...a state of ignorance predates knowledge and experience. One needs a reasoning(conscious) brain to consider God, one just needs to be alive to consider pain or discomfort. Your link just tells me that religion is older than we thought. Good education.

Brother, there is no attempt to predate anything here, whatever wants to predate religion is free to. The point remains that humans are naturally disposed to religion, whatever stage you may put it. Just like reproduction comes at a certain stage in humans, it's not immediate does not make it a stranger or learned thing. When it is time, the hormones will come, there will be 'heat', and the boy of yesterday will be a father. It's in him. Go to any cave in any part of the world and meet cave men there, they are worshipping something or someone. Man will continue to subscribe to some higher power of sorts. It's in the nature. It's another thing to now be taught and redirected to the right path or God. But a natural man is religious or if you prefer, will be religious by instinct.

Judybash93:


You need to at least prove the existence of a god. How can one disprove what hasn't been proven to be true?

You need to prove that the universe is eternal and was not caused by something.

GeneralDae:

You need to prove that the universe is eternal and was not caused by something.

I didn't make any claim in relation to the universe. I asked you to prove that the god you proclaim exists.

Judybash93:


I didn't make any claim in relation to the universe. I asked you to prove that the god you proclaim exists.

If the universe exists due to a cause and began at some point in time, then it is most likely that a God exists.

Image123:


You are either deceiving yourself or totally off point on the subject. The fallacy you seem to just learned talks about stating that something is real because the majority thinks so. If you are intelligent enough, you will notice that i have not attempted to claim or prove anything to be real. It is a simple undebatable fact that the population of atheists in the world is a shameful minority. It doesn't prove or disprove anything, it is simply a fact of the atheist's irrelevance. i don't need to prove God to you or anyone, i don't owe you neither do i have to.

So what are you wanking about?

Citizen of Celestial North Korea

Workch:
So what are you wanking about?

Citizen of Celestial North Korea

Don't be shy. Is that your closet hobby?

Image123:


Brother, there is no attempt to predate anything here, whatever wants to predate religion is free to. The point remains that humans are naturally disposed to religion, whatever stage you may put it. Just like reproduction comes at a certain stage in humans, it's not immediate does not make it a stranger or learned thing. When it is time, the hormones will come, there will be 'heat', and the boy of yesterday will be a father. It's in him. Go to any cave in any part of the world and meet cave men there, they are worshipping something or someone. Man will continue to subscribe to some higher power of sorts. It's in the nature. It's another thing to now be taught and redirected to the right path or God. But a natural man is religious or if you prefer, will be religious by instinct.

Are you saying man is naturally religious because of cave paintings? I must humbly disagree. But you are free to establish that claim by providing evidence. Painting are not evidence of religion being in man's nature. Only that early men were religious. Establish the correlation then i will understand you.

And also if you agree that ignorance predates religion why are you saying man is by default religious? The null hypothesis states that man is ignorant of his world and has no worldview. That's what I want you to understand. Your statement is wrong. Early men worship higher authority does not equate man being religious by default....

Default equals "before external interference"

GeneralDae:

If the universe exists due to a cause and began at some point in time, then it is most likely that a God exists.

I don't think you are arguing for probability of existence of God...because if you were that would be okay. But you are arguing certain knowledge of a being you couldn't possibly know existed. Believe is not knowing.

kimco:


I don't think you are arguing for probability of existence of God...because if you were that would be okay. But you are arguing certain knowledge of a being you couldn't possibly know existed. Believe is not knowing.

And how did you come to this conclusion especially after I used the words "most likely" in my previous comment? I wonder how you deciphered from my posts that I am arguing certain knowledge of a proposed being. I am only saying there is a much higher probability that a God (the God) exists given the fact that the material universe and time as we know it, all had their beginning 13.5 billion years ago.

GeneralDae:

If the universe exists due to a cause and began at some point in time, then it is most likely that a God exists.

So, what you're doing is making claims upon claims. The universe exists, so god? Btw, which god? And where did god come from?

God of gaps.

Image123:


Don't be shy. Is that your closet hobby?

Celestial North Korean, why running from pillar to post?

Workch:
Celestial North Korean, why running from pillar to post?

Apparently, you're the one running around. i have maintained the same fact on your minority and irrelevance.

kimco:


Are you saying man is naturally religious because of cave paintings? I must humbly disagree. But you are free to establish that claim by providing evidence. Painting are not evidence of religion being in man's nature. Only that early men were religious. Establish the correlation then i will understand you.

And also if you agree that ignorance predates religion why are you saying man is by default religious? The null hypothesis states that man is ignorant of his world and has no worldview. That's what I want you to understand. Your statement is wrong. Early men worship higher authority does not equate man being religious by default....

Default equals "before external interference"

i do not refer to cave painting but to cave men. This is because of the insinuations that religion was imported. This is not true, because if we go to the extremes of uncivilized people i.e cave men, we find them also religious. We both agree that early men were religious which is FINE.
The talk about predating is irrelevant and off point. Just like i mentioned, sexuality is innate. That humans don't generally have sex or want to until after puberty doesn't mean it's not an instinct. Whatever hypothesis you attach to man doesn't make his sexual feelings imported. It is the same with religion. Man doesn't need external help to be religious. Go from the most educated to the crudest cave man, the human being looks for something or someone to be religious about.

Workch:

So what are you wanking about?
Citizen of Celestial North Korea

I'm somehow curious.
Who invited you to our zoom meetings?
What prompted you to join the meeting?

Workch:
I joined one of your zoom meetings this morning. Your church zoom meeting.

Is it what you've been seeing in my comments or you have been dealing with JWs secretly?
My reason for asking is because we no more open out worship centers for public use so the zoom meeting code is only given to our friends who have been studying the Bible with us, that's when noneJWs can join our meetings!
So how did you get the meeting code?

Workch:
They blocked me from the meeting because I was asking questions they don’t like

Your questions should have been directed to the person who gave you the code, because the meeting is not for such purpose. So if you have any questions you should have asked me or any other JW before joining our meetings!

Workch:
When you don’t have answers to lies

You should have found out if they are lying from members who are ever ready to attend to your questions instead of going to disrupt our WORSHIP with your Inquisition!

Workch:
I should just swallow all they things they were saying?

I began swallowing everything they say after studying God's word with their members who came to my house. I scrutinized them to the extent that they began suspecting me whether i was an investigator. That's what you too should have done before attending their meetings. Imagine if you have to attend meetings with all the religious sects in the world all in the name of scrutiny, how wise do you think such a move will be?

Judybash93:


So, what you're doing is making claims upon claims. The universe exists, so god? Btw, which god? And where did god come from?

I am not making claims, I'm just using common sense. I don't know which God, but what I know is there has to be a first cause not caused by anything else. That's what sounds reasonable. If you don't think there must be a first uncaused source of all, then let me know why.

Image123:


i do not refer to cave painting but to cave men. This is because of the insinuations that religion was imported. This is not true, because if we go to the extremes of uncivilized people i.e cave men, we find them also religious. We both agree that early men were religious which is FINE.
The talk about predating is irrelevant and off point. Just like i mentioned, sexuality is innate. That humans don't generally have sex or want to until after puberty doesn't mean it's not an instinct. Whatever hypothesis you attach to man doesn't make his sexual feelings imported. It is the same with religion. Man doesn't need external help to be religious. Go from the most educated to the crudest cave man, the human being looks for something or someone to be religious about.

You statement

"Man is by default, religious"

Is what we are talking about. That statement is not evidenced. Man is by default ignorant, therefore non theist(in relation to religion, for now). I use non theist because i believe one needs to have information of said Gods to claim atheism. But if one is ignorant of said Gods, I believe he is non theist. Corrections are welcomed.

Again the null hypothesis is that man doesn't know anything until environmental exposure. To form any religious concept of anything man needs to be exposed to these things. My point about predating is very relevant because you tried to pass early men believes as the definition for "Default". It is established that man is sexual by nature, it is demonstrated and reason have been given. That which you have not done yet so the parallel drawn by you is just drawn for drawing sake. Until you can establish this fact that we have in our DNA the need to be religious we will assume that man is not by default (nature, as you put it) religious.
Also If you could provide your definition for religious, that might clear things up.

And I don't think anyone claimed religion was imported rather that the judeo-christian religion was imported. You can disregard anyone saying otherwise, I'm with you on that.

GeneralDae:

I am not making claims, I'm just using common sense. I don't know which God, but what I know is there has to be a first cause not caused by anything else. That's what sounds reasonable. If you don't think there must be a first uncaused source of all, then let me know why.

Like i said earlier, I'm not making any claims in relation to the origin of the universe neither am i girded with enough knowledge in that area. So, i don't know. But you assuming that god could be the cause is the reason why I'm still asking how you came to that conclusion? Is there enough evidence to point to that claim?

Judybash93:


Like i said earlier, I'm not making any claims in relation to the origin of the universe neither am i girded with enough knowledge in that area. So, i don't know. But you assuming that god could be the cause is the reason why I'm still asking how you came to that conclusion? Is there enough evidence to point to that claim?

Whatever the cause is, is what is called God Or whatever the cause of the cause of the cause is.

My evidence is that if we agree that nothing suddenly happens without a cause and the universe has a cause and that cause probably has a cause, then the very first uncaused cause of all the causes is God.

What or Who that God is, is the only mystery worth thinking about.

Image123:


Apparently, you're the one running around. i have maintained the same fact on your minority and irrelevance.

A majority citizen of Celestial North Korea.

GeneralDae:

Whatever the cause is, is what is called God Or whatever the cause of the cause of the cause is.

My evidence is that if we agree that nothing suddenly happens without a cause and the universe has a cause and that cause probably has a cause, then the very first uncaused cause of all the causes is God.

What or Who that God is, is the only mystery worth thinking about.

Well, we have spontaneous reactions and that cannot be taken off the table. If you start with god, then the next question would be what caused god? Since you said nothing suddenly happens. I see what you're trying to do kole werk! god is the uncaused cause arrange yourself o

Judybash93:


Well, we have spontaneous reactions and that cannot be taken off the table. If you start with god, then the next question would be what caused god? Since you said nothing suddenly happens. I see what you're trying to do kole werk! god is the uncaused cause arrange yourself o

Lol I didn't start with God o, it's just deductive logic. If anything caused God then that thing is the real God. The God I am defining here should be uncaused. We don't know much about this God. You could call her energy, mother nature, or spirit. It could be any of those or all of those, we don't know. What I know is that given my deductive logic, there is a high probability that she exists.

GeneralDae:

Lol I didn't start with God o, it's just deductive logic. If anything caused God then that thing is the real God. The God I am defining here should be uncaused. We don't know much about this God. You could call her energy, mother nature, or spirit. It could be any of those or all of those, we don't know. What I know is that given my deductive logic, there is a high probability that she exists.

Well, i don't know and you've still not convinced me

kimco:

You statement

"Man is by default, religious"

Is what we are talking about. That statement is not evidenced. Man is by default ignorant, therefore non theist(in relation to religion, for now). I use non theist because i believe one needs to have information of said Gods to claim atheism. But if one is ignorant of said Gods, I believe he is non theist. Corrections are welcomed.

Again the null hypothesis is that man doesn't know anything until environmental exposure. To form any religious concept of anything man needs to be exposed to these things. My point about predating is very relevant because you tried to pass early men believes as the definition for "Default". It is established that man is sexual by nature, it is demonstrated and reason have been given. That which you have not done yet so the parallel drawn by you is just drawn for drawing sake. Until you can establish this fact that we have in our DNA the need to be religious we will assume that man is not by default (nature, as you put it) religious.
Also If you could provide your definition for religious, that might clear things up.

And I don't think anyone claimed religion was imported rather that the judeo-christian religion was imported. You can disregard anyone saying otherwise, I'm with you on that.

Brother, i don't have the strength for all this grammar policing. If you do not want or like "by default", take "by nature". All these six and half a dozen argument doesn't save anybody. Illustration is not necessarily a parallel. Illustration is done so that you can see the unseen or complex through means that are easier or that you are used to. Worship/Devotion/Religion is largely a spirit thing BTW. i hereby disregard all the atheists and wannabes on NL except kimco.

Image123:


Brother, i don't have the strength for all this grammar policing. If you do not want or like "by default", take "by nature". All these six and half a dozen argument doesn't save anybody. Illustration is not necessarily a parallel. Illustration is done so that you can see the unseen or complex through means that are easier or that you are used to. Worship/Devotion/Religion is largely a spirit thing BTW. i hereby disregard all the atheists and wannabes on NL except kimco.

So you are saying, naturally, man is religious? This you have to give evidence to. You can cite a research to that effect. Im wiling to learn.

kimco:


So you are saying, naturally, man is religious? This you have to give evidence to. You can cite a research to that effect. Im wiling to learn.

You're the one that relies heavily on research and science, i don't. It's like me asking you to write your thesis in my language instead of the language you studied in. While it's possible, it's not very convenient. But since you continue to insist, i will point you to links in "the language you understand" Check this and this. Or Google "man is naturally religious", maybe you'll find what you are looking for. Me, na Bible and experience i go quote for you.

Image123:


You're the one that relies heavily on research and science, i don't. It's like me asking you to write your thesis in my language instead of the language you studied in. While it's possible, it's not very convenient. But since you continue to insist, i will point you to links in "the language you understand" Check this and this. Or Google "man is naturally religious", maybe you'll find what you are looking for. Me, na Bible and experience i go quote for you.

Goid I knew I could trust you to give me links. Good to learn. Reading the links though the info I got was that man has the tendencies to be religious.

It goes like this

Ignorance --> confrontation (with the world) --> fear--> introduction to comfort (could be parents or big daddy in the skies)

Man hates to bear responsibility or be alone or be helpless. This makes it easy to slot religion as a comfort zone....

The default settings of man is ignorance. The natural tendencies of man is not man's default settings. Man is naturally capable of evil...man is not by default a killer lol...

So im going to concede to your definition of default aka natural tendencies. Yes, man has the natural tendencies to be religious....thanks for the links bro
Sorry for the late reply, nairaland won't let me login in for some reason.
It all boils down...survival...

kimco:


Goid I knew I could trust you to give me links. Good to learn. Reading the links though the info I got was that man has the tendencies to be religious.

It goes like this

Ignorance --> confrontation (with the world) --> fear--> introduction to comfort (could be parents or big daddy in the skies)

Man hates to bear responsibility or be alone or be helpless. This makes it easy to slot religion as a comfort zone....

The default settings of man is ignorance. The natural tendencies of man is not man's default settings. Man is naturally capable of evil...man is not by default a killer lol...

So im going to concede to your definition of default aka natural tendencies. Yes, man has the natural tendencies to be religious....thanks for the links bro
Sorry for the late reply, nairaland won't let me login in for some reason.
It all boils down...survival...

No worries bro. The Bible teaches that man is a sinner as well, it's in tandem with man's natural capabilities for evil.

kimco:


Goid I knew I could trust you to give me links. Good to learn. Reading the links though the info I got was that man has the tendencies to be religious.

It goes like this

Ignorance --> confrontation (with the world) --> fear--> introduction to comfort (could be parents or big daddy in the skies)

Man hates to bear responsibility or be alone or be helpless. This makes it easy to slot religion as a comfort zone....

The default settings of man is ignorance. The natural tendencies of man is not man's default settings. Man is naturally capable of evil...man is not by default a killer lol...

So im going to concede to your definition of default aka natural tendencies. Yes, man has the natural tendencies to be religious....thanks for the links bro
Sorry for the late reply, nairaland won't let me login in for some reason.
It all boils down...survival...

Does that mean you have tendecies to be religious?



Google is wrong!!!!!!


Man refers to mankind (all humans)


But it's not all humans that can be religious.


I can't be religious.



If you accuse me of not understanding anything,then that will be in vain because it doesn't mean you have the understanding of anything




Spits.......