Aemmyjah:

DID PERFECTION REQUIRE THAT ADAM AND EVE BE UNABLE TO DO WRONG?
The maker of a robot expects it to do exactly what he has programmed it to do. But a PERFECT ROBOT WOULD NOT be a PERFECT HUMAN. The qualities viewed as essential are not the same. Adam and Eve were HUMANS, not ROBOTS.

Wrong!

Every creation is a robot or toy to its Creator exactly as your mannequins, cars, phones, mascots etc.

All creations are toys and robots.

Man is just robot who has been made to exercise the many powers he has been given on his own calculated choosing even up to the option of choosing what pleases him.

Aemmyjah:
Hmmm
I just wanted to see the comments in the thread but the latter comments are really something else and very very unbiblical as we have this flawed definition of perfect.

Mine is not!

As God warned Peter "how can you call what He (God) had Said is clean, unclean?" (Which is exactly what the makers of the 1979 Rolls Royce will tell you)

Same warning in Isaiah 45:9

So, also can no man lay down perfect on a thing they did not create.

Dtruthspeaker:


Wrong!

Every creation is a robot or toy to its Creator exactly as your mannequins, cars, phones, mascots etc.

All creations are toys and robots.

Man is just robot who has been made to exercise the many powers he has been given on his own calculated choosing even up to the option of choosing what pleases him.

And here we go
Go and check the dictionary meaning of robots
You did not read what I wrote well
Do you want to compare man to robots? Robots have no choice of their own as they must keep doing whatever they're programmed to do. That of man, even perfect man and angels demonstrate obedience out of love , respect, loyalty, submission and not automatic
Besides, you can compare human inventions to living creatures like you and me
I agree with your last words but I don't accept that man is a robot. Man is a moral BEING or creature. He is not 'just robot'

Aemmyjah:

And here we go
Go and check the dictionary meaning of robots
You did not read what I wrote well
Do you want to compare man to robots? Robots have no choice of their own as they must keep doing whatever they're programmed to do. That of man, even perfect man and angels demonstrate obedience out of love , respect, loyalty, submission and not automatic
Besides, you can compare human inventions to living creatures like you and me
I agree with your last words but I don't accept that man is a robot. Man is a moral BEING or creature. He is not 'just robot'

The bold, is man not programmed?

Is he not programmed to choose?

Is he not doing according to his programming?

Can he do beyond his programming eg fly with his natural body like a bird or stay under the sea with his natural body like a fish?

Exactly like a robot, he is bound by his programme.

Programme means Law! And therefore like the robot he is only doing what He has been Law'd to do and like the robot, he can not go beyond it

Dtruthspeaker:


Could you make your question clearer?

Yes. My mistake, I made a typographical error but I have corrected it, so it may be clear enough for you to read now. Incase it still is not clear enough, let me rephrase below.

Dtruthspeaker:


Potential for evil is not evil like battery acid is potentially evil.

But the battery acid is also potentially good.

Agreed.

Dtruthspeaker:


So what then is evil?

Evil means unlawful use which causes harm

And the potential to harm or to refrain from harming lies in the exercise of your power to act freely aka freewill

Agreed but my question is why did God make us with the potential to harm and do evil which is integral in free will?

Dtruthspeaker:


Mine is not!

As God warned Peter "how can you call what He (God) had Said is clean, unclean?" (Which is exactly what the makers of the 1979 Rolls Royce will tell you)

Same warning in Isaiah 45:9

So, also can no man lay down perfect on a thing they did not create.

Sorry, I can't read Isaiah 45:9 and comment on it as sleep de my eyes. Been doing research on soul and spirit cos I was invited to explain the Bible meaning to one guy

As for the unclean, note that it was God himself that told his people what was clean and unclean FOR THEM and not in His (God) eyes. He first told Noah to bring the clean animals by sevens and the unclean animals by twos, male and female into the ark. Later, Jehovah, through Moses gave the nation of Israel the criteria of knowing which animal is clean and unclean for them and they were not to eat them.
Peter grew up as a Jew and he knew such animals. He must have seen that and when he was commanded to eat it, he objected cos they were unclean. Everything was actually a vision na and kind of a 'prophetic lesson' that helped Simon Peter to realize that those that the Jews used to see as unclean which are the Gentiles have now been sanctified by their faith in the ransom of Jesus Christ and can become heirs of the kingdom and serve Jehovah God and his son, Jesus Christ and the first were Cornelius and his household. Peter himself acknowledge it when he said that he 'NOW know God is not partial but everyman in every nation who fears God and does what is right is acceptable or pleasing to Him' - Acts 10:31
Later, ask he spoke, they received the holy spirit and got baptized. Naturally, Peter in his Jewish mind will not even knock on the home of a Gentile let alone enter their home and spend 'some days' with them. The vision he received was timely and that shows the wisdom of Jehovah God.
There's a part in the Gospel writings that said that Jesus Christ declared ALL foods clean. Initially, there were some foods that were unclean to them

I really admire you bro for many things, your zeal and your conviction in the existence of the Creator and how you prove it to these Atheists. You're not just a premium churchgoer. After you, there's no one else I've seen that's not a Witness that shows same spirit but when it comes to WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY TEACHES, I don't want to be egoistic and I don't mean to insult you but you should give us that respect

Dtruthspeaker:


The bold, is man not programmed?

Is he not programmed to choose?

Is he not doing according to his programming?

Can he do beyond his programming eg fly with his natural body like a bird or stay under the sea with his natural body like a fish?

Exactly like a robot, he is bound by his programme.

Programme means Law! And therefore like the robot he is only doing what He has been Law'd to do and like the robot, he can not go beyond it

See where you're contradicting yourself
I've caught you and it's bad I can't highlight your error

Unlike humans, robots are NOT programmed to CHOOSE (or make choices)

You've jumped from perfection and sin and freewill to make moral choices into another thing entirely - environment. Man can't fly naturally like birds but they can still fly by planes or skydiving and that is not bad in God's eyes. We can't swim like fishes but we can travel far on or under water with the use of boats or submarine. It is because we're made in God's image. That means we can reflect God's personality and one of his attributes is Wisdom

Good morning

Anormalguy:

Agreed but my question is why did God make us with the potential to harm and do evil which is integral in free will?

This is still the same question you said so I take it, this is Truly the question you intended asking.

First your question is not in tandem with the Truth for you impute what is not there.

God did not create us to do evil behold, He even kept evil trapped in a fruit.

Therefore, we enjoyed the advantage of being good and exercising the freewill of doing all good.

Aemmyjah:

...Unlike humans, robots are NOT programmed to CHOOSE (or make choices)...

As you have programmed them to not choose.

If you wanted your robot to choose, you would programme them to choose.

Aemmyjah:
...After you, there's no one else I've seen that's not a Witness that shows same spirit but when it comes to WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY TEACHES, I don't want to be egoistic and I don't mean to insult you but you should give us that respect

Truth is I respect people who give respect And truth is, you have been very decent and respectful even we do not agree. I love and respect that.

I humbly do not like your group because of the choice of Life and Death Choice and I choose Life and run away from death, and I humbly think that some of your thinkings and practices and teachings are inclined towards death most especially when I can reasonably see that it is also fuelled by our natural wishes and desires rather than Truth. Even if I would not like the Truth, I choose that I should be given the Truth.

The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable. James A. Garfield

Inspite of this, I'll stick take The Truth.

Half Truth is a Lie and all Lies kill, whereas Truth gives Life. And as I said, I choose Life!

Hence I am anti-Lie and and anti-death which is why I attack all Lies and death, hence my attack on your group when the occasion rises.

Dtruthspeaker:


I saw you at the bottom but I see you did not respond to my call for clarity.

So I think you deliberately asked this question with malice.

For you deceivingly imply God caused man to unlawfully harm which is not True for it is not God Who caused it but Satan. Therefore, this is a bad faith question,

Giving you fair hearing I therefore ask, is my surnising True? Then kindly state what your True question is.

No, I did not ask my question with malice and it is my true question. I first modified the original question to fix the error then went to type another post to rephrase my original post. In addition, I was doing some things on the side.

My intention is to come to an understanding of the perfection of freewill because I believe everything God creates must be perfect in it's own way but with freewill, I cannot wrap my head around it being perfect since it constitutes the potential for evil. You have to be patient with me as I am still getting used to writing posts on nairaland.

Anormalguy:


No, I did not ask my question with malice and it is my true question. I first modified the original question to fix the error then went to type another post to rephrase my original post. In addition, I was doing some things on the side.

My intention is to come to an understanding of the perfection of freewill because I believe everything God creates must be perfect in it's own way but with freewill, I cannot wrap my head around it being perfect since it constitutes the potential for evil. You have to be patient with me as I am still getting used to writing posts on nairaland.

Alright!
I answered it up

Dtruthspeaker:

Funny, God even gave them the advantage of being on His Side (good only).

Where did you get that?
With freewill you can choose either to be dependent or reliant on God or to be totally independent of Him.

Dtruthspeaker:

Evil was outside of them and confined to the fruit exactly like hypo is outside us.

So, the question is "how did the thing (evil) which God placed outside of them, and it has been outside them since, now get into them to change their good settings like hypo in the body?"

You got a computer for a young boy, installed all the softwares he needed on it with a simple instructini. "Under no circumstance should you accept ANY softwares from anyone to avoid risk of infection."

Someone told the boy, you have only the latest Nintendo softwares, the old ancient versions of Nintendo is much more interesting. The person who gave you the computer doesn't want you to enjoy your computer that is why he locked up all the old beautiful interesting gaming softwares!

So, you boy got this new software installed on his machine. Now, he got a new set of softwares BUT his system is now infected with Trojans, Viruses and Worms!
Now the whole computer is misbehaving because of the virus.

Your question was, how did this EVIL virus get inside the boys computer?

How does a virus get into a computer?

Dtruthspeaker:

God did not create us to do evil behold, He even kept evil trapped in a fruit.

Therefore, we enjoyed the advantage of being good and exercising the freewill of doing all good.

I don’t understand this part. Perhaps you are referring to something related to the Adam & Eve story. Please clarify.

Freewill is an illusion.

No freewill, you'd either end in the lake of fire, or be with Jesus at the new earth and heaven, after this life choices.

Jokerman:
Freewill is an illusion.

No freewill, you'd either end in the lake of fire, or be with Jesus at the new earth and heaven, after this life choices.

That one na the lie wey your pastors and mogs, men who know absolutely nothing about God, dey feed una.

DON'T FOLLOW FOLLOW. DON'T BE IDOLATROUS.

Dtruthspeaker:


As you have programmed them to not choose.

If you wanted your robot to choose, you would programme them to choose.

Da!
Try and read all I wrote in that comments again
Man is a moral or freewill agent. Robot are not. Do not try to mix both together. That is why man can obey based on LOVE, loyalty, they can choose from right and wrong, obedience or disobedience.
You're the one mixing things up

Anormalguy:


Yes. My mistake, I made a typographical error but I have corrected it, so it may be clear enough for you to read now. Incase it still is not clear enough, let me rephrase below.



Agreed.



Agreed but my question is why did God make us with the potential to harm and do evil which is integral in free will?

My comments answered your question

Dtruthspeaker:


This is still the same question you said so I take it, this is Truly the question you intended asking.

First your question is not in tandem with the Truth for you impute what is not there.

God did not create us to do evil behold, He even kept evil trapped in a fruit.

Therefore, we enjoyed the advantage of being good and exercising the freewill of doing all good.

Show us where the Bible said God kept evil in a fruit
If so, where does the wrong desire come in?
Satan did not eat fruit but he was already evil
Besides,what's your ground for Truth cos we're discussing something that has to do with God himself

Dtruthspeaker:


Truth is I respect people who give respect And truth is, you have been very decent and respectful even we do not agree. I love and respect that.

I humbly do not like your group because of the choice of Life and Death Choice and I choose Life and run away from death, and I humbly think that some of your thinkings and practices and teachings are inclined towards death most especially when I can reasonably see that it is also fuelled by our natural wishes and desires rather than Truth. Even if I would not like the Truth, I choose that I should be given the Truth.

The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable. James A. Garfield

Inspite of this, I'll stick take The Truth.

Half Truth is a Lie and all Lies kill, whereas Truth gives Life. And as I said, I choose Life!

Hence I am anti-Lie and and anti-death which is why I attack all Lies and death, hence my attack on your group when the occasion rises.

Lol
John 17:17
God's word is truth
Truth is a life and death thing so you can't tell me I chose the death choice
Like you said, there was choice and there are basis to choices especially as to regards to religion if there is only one true religion in God's eyes. The road is narrow and cramped and FEW are on it. Jesus christ himself gave prophecies about his followers in the last days that they will be busy preaching the good news of the kingdom until the end comes
Like Jesus Christ, we honor the father and 'make known his name to all men'. That's why we restored the Divine name to his only book and adopted his name to become his Witnesses
Jesus christ said his disciples will be hated and persecuted by all nations but they will be identified for the self-sacrificing love they have among themselves. You can tell us such group here. Love is based on action. Every religion preaches love but in the face of conflict,they kill one another in the spirit of nationalism and ethnicity. Love among God's people goes beyond that, they are not learning war anymore and those among God's people are turning their swords into plowshares and helping others become friends of the true God. Trinity is not biblical; hellfire and purgatory is not biblical; immortality of the soul is not biblical; all souls goes to heaven is not biblical. We based all our beliefs and teaching on the truth of God's word and allow it to refine us

TenQ:

Where did you get that?
With freewill you can choose either to be dependent or reliant on God or to be totally independent of Him.


You got a computer for a young boy, installed all the softwares he needed on it with a simple instructini. "Under no circumstance should you accept ANY softwares from anyone to avoid risk of infection."

Someone told the boy, you have only the latest Nintendo softwares, the old ancient versions of Nintendo is much more interesting. The person who gave you the computer doesn't want you to enjoy your computer that is why he locked up all the old beautiful interesting gaming softwares!

So, you boy got this new software installed on his machine. Now, he got a new set of softwares BUT his system is now infected with Trojans, Viruses and Worms!
Now the whole computer is misbehaving because of the virus.

Your question was, how did this EVIL virus get inside the boys computer?

How does a virus get into a computer?

Pls accept my commendation as your illustration was really Epic. My eyes nearing stood up in ovation as I read them

Dtruthspeaker:


Mine is not!

As God warned Peter "how can you call what He (God) had Said is clean, unclean?" (Which is exactly what the makers of the 1979 Rolls Royce will tell you)

Same warning in Isaiah 45:9

So, also can no man lay down perfect on a thing they did not create.

I just read Isaiah
How does this scripture fit in

Dtruthspeaker:


Alright!
I answered it up

When the Bible says Adam was perfect, it meant that he lived up to his standards in creation. For example, in a class, you may mark someone work as good, bad, poor, excellent or perfect.
Still God gave him freewill to do what he pleases. That freewill was not to be automatic but his choices should come from his heart. He may choose to obey his Creator or not, do what is bad or not if he wishes. Satan himself was perfect but he misused his freewill too. Joshua even urged his people to use their freewill to serve God when he said that if it seem good to them, they could choose to serve God or not.
Adam could eat whatever he likes, drink and breathe. That does not mean that because he is perfect, he can stay without air or just eat any kind of food or climb a cliff to land headfirst. His freewill will help him and us as well to decide what we WANT to do regarding moral laws. Accept them or reject them. God is love and he expects his intelligent creatures to show that same attitude of love towards him. If won't make sense if they were like robots. Jesus christ too was tempted and we all know of his temptation yet he CHOSE to want to obey God. Something Adam and Eve foolishly failed to do

Kobojunkie:
1. A terribly flawed conclusion on your part! As to whether I have taken a stance or not regarding perfection, my stance means nothing since this ought to instead be about that which is written. According to the story, man, Adam, was not made perfect by God from His beginning. This goodness certification is a quality of the work done by the creator, and not a characteristic of the man himself.

2. If you would stick to what is written rather than these numerous attempts to redefine/redraw that which is written, you will find that it ain't as complicated as you think it is. God created all creatures, He breathed life —the breath of Life which is spirit and belongs to God — into every one of the living creatures that He created. There are no ambiguities in any of what is written as is written.

3. There you go insisting that it should all have been according to how you supposed. Adam was given a choice and made to know the consequence of disobeying said choice. Oh well!

4. In your confusion, you keep forgetting that evil was created by God Himself. You know what, You need to make up your mind whether you want to argue the delusions and musings of you or need to focus instead on seeing what is written as it is written.

This goodness certification is a quality of the work done by the creator, and not a characteristic of the man himself.

1. You're stretching this further and further. How did man got these characteristic if not from God's likeness. Its like making a robot and you'd expect it to just perform the task you built it for, without the necessary programmes and instructions it need to be fed with, to execute it. . Such creation is nothing more than a caricature!


If you would stick to what is written rather than these numerous attempts to redefine/redraw that which is written, you will find that it ain't as complicated as you think it is. God created all creatures, He breathed life —the breath of Life which is spirit and belongs to God — into every one of the living creatures that He created. There are no ambiguities in any of what is written as is written.

2. Since God breathed life into every living creatures. I am sure the the carnivorous animal we have today, initially started out vegans or how did they got the knowledge of killing other animals to help them survive. Or was it part of the plan too? Or was it humans fault, that made them share in the punishment too? Please explain this.



There you go insisting that it should all have been according to how you supposed. Adam was given a choice and made to know the consequence of disobeying said choice.

3. Maybe your error is you believing that I had wanted a perfect world, where everything would have worked out as plan. As if eating the supposed apple wasn't even part of the plan! since the consequence of eating the apple was stated, the it had to be part of the plan, else God would've made only the tree of good only, to save himself the stress of regret of making man. I said it earlier that the fact the tree of good and evil exist, then he should've had the premonition of what to expect. The flaw didn't just come spring up from "thin air", even though he saw it that it was good. This does not invalidate the possibilities of the probabilities of Adam going the opposite way of the "intended plan" . Stop looking at this from only one side of the coin. Adam was given a freewill within a constraint set of choices ffs! It's like the dilenma choosing between A and B, Of which it present in its enticing possibilities. Common. Man, do not make it look as if Adam deserved. Don't be God's jury here. You don't even know its intention, even though he said he regretted making man. Haven't we ever entertained the thought of going back to our childhood when the world then was without pressure and responsibilities, when we received the attentions and care, but the constraint is we have to grow. And by growing, we shoulder more responsibilities.




In your confusion, you keep forgetting that evil was created by God Himself. You know what, You need to make up your mind whether you want to argue the delusions and musings of you or need to focus instead on seeing what is written as it is written

4. If evil was created by God, what was the intention of him creating it, if he created a perfect world? Are you telling me the all knowing God do not know the probabilities of the outcomes of his own action!!!!! Tell me please. Make me understand. Even of he wanted to test Adam with the tree of good and evil, then he should still know what the outcome will be on both sides, which means God's creation was good in "making" but not entirely good in characteristics. And if this is still the case, God who created evil himself is capable of evil, because he can comprehend what evil is, even if he's not inclined to do so. It's like two side of a coin. Both are inseparable!!!!! So in essence God's creation can only be assumed to be good in aesthetics, and not in their characteristic; of each of his creation.

No matter how y'all spin it. Imperfection has always and will always be part of creation. We only want to turn a blind eye to it .

Aemmyjah:


Pls accept my commendation as your illustration was really Epic. My eyes nearing stood up in ovation as I read them

Thank your sir!

hayoholla:
No matter how y'all spin it. Imperfection has always and will always be part of creation. We only want to turn a blind eye to it .

When the manufacturer creates the laptop computer, does he load it with virus?
OR
Virus get into the computer because the USER connected an unverified software source accessing the computer?

TenQ:

When the manufacturer creates the laptop computer, does he load it with virus?
OR
Virus get into the computer because the USER connected an unverified software source accessing the computer?

. Incorrect bro. If there's no such thing as a computer "system", how will a computer virus exist . Try harder next time.

Aemmyjah:

When the Bible says Adam was perfect, it meant that he lived up to his standards in creation.

I know. That means he was perfect according to the assessment of his Creator, like the Rolls Royce, iPhone, mannequin etc.

Aemmyjah:
..Still God gave him freewill to do what he pleases. That freewill was not to be automatic but his choices should come from his heart. He may choose to obey his Creator or not, do what is bad or not if he wishes.

You have said the words of programming which is "God gave him" which means God set him, the same way iPhone and other toys are set in their own way.

hayoholla:


. Incorrect bro. If there's no such thing as a computer "system", how will a computer virus exist . Try harder next time.

SMH!
1. I didn't speak of ANY computer system
2. Except your solution is that :
To ELIMINATE computer VIRUSES, it is sufficient to eliminate all COMPUTERS.

A Computer VIRUS is a kind of low level computer program made by a malicious software programmer.

In this case, the computer is good UNTIL the user introduces a FOREIGN Trojan gift into it.

TenQ:

SMH!
1. I didn't speak of ANY computer system
2. Except your solution is that :
To ELIMINATE computer VIRUSES, it is sufficient to eliminate all COMPUTERS.

A Computer VIRUS is a kind of low level computer program made by a malicious software programmer.

In this case, the computer is good UNTIL the user introduces a FOREIGN Trojan gift into it.

This is what you said down here�

When the manufacturer creates the laptop computer, does he load it with virus?
OR
Virus get into the computer because the USER connected an unverified software source accessing the computer?

And I replied you. I asked if there's no computer system, how will computer virus exist. So Where's the confusion in my reply.


You even replied again with this�

You even replied that Except your solution is that :
To ELIMINATE computer VIRUSES, it is sufficient to eliminate all COMPUTERS

So obviously you understood my reply.


And also you said,

I didn't speak of ANY computer system

When you initially started with this�

When the manufacturer creates the laptop computer, does he load it with virus?
OR
Virus get into the computer because the USER connected an unverified software source accessing the computer?

Or is it my use of "computer sytem" that's confusing you?