"The one thing you should always remember is that all these movements, all these groups, are battling for the individual. They have found the secret that only Soul, the individual, is the central operating unit in the worlds of God.

Nothing can happen except through Soul. Nothing can exist without It. The ECK, or reality, will only respond to Soul and nothing else.

This means that whoever can capture Soul, as you might net the fish of the sea—as the Christians put it—will have the greatest power known.

Cont'd

"So why does man continually throw himself into groups and movements?

He sees himself as a Christian, a Democrat, a Communist, or a thousand other designations, but never as Soul, the individual.

He feels the need to belong, so he searches out a group consciousness. He dearly loves to live by rules and regulations, so he joins an organization.

Alone, he feels helpless, so he takes part in some action team with high aspirations to change the world. This is Soul's way of looking for survival.

Cont'd

chieveboy:


Identify this "main body of science" please. Give it a distinct identity if you can.

It is not true that "nobody takes you serious" if any of your work does not pass through the criteria of "main body of science". A dead giveaway on this is your statement on a certain "higher self" and "Soul", at least we have one irrefutable guest to this as your person. You make me laugh all the time, I give you that.

Where did you read that scientists have accepted soul as real or that humans have a soul? It's only amomgs those who study spirituality that the soul is recognised .

If you don't know the difference between individual scientists working on their own and other groups of
trained scientists in the natural sciences who are expected to publish their research findings for it to be peer reviewed by others before it can be accepted as fact, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can tell you again, not especially after you already boasted that you can teach me quantum physics.

You call peer review journal *ss journal? SMH
.

I can imagine the seriousness in opting for the game plan in using this angle of argument that since the Eck Masters have not been scientifically proven, they are false, so you expect every one to fall for this. It is so naive as to draw derision..

I don't have your assumed game plan. It's your habit to just imagine anything and immediately shift it to me.

You were the one, not me, that bought the science talk into the discussion. You first declared that Eckankar is science and also that physics is one of its branches. Have you forgotten so soon?

Labelling anything science or scientifically proven is not enough. Anybody can make that claim. The important thing after such declaration is to demonstrate it or provide evidence . if not , you have made an empty claim.

I have asked you severally to substantiate your claims, but each time instead of responding directly, you went off on a tangent to lecture me on metaphor, fiction, quantum physics, imagination, astral plane and what not that has no relevance to the question asked.

Eckankar is not taught in public schools as part of the natural science,. So why do you expect the public to swallow your claim without questioning it?
.

Science if anything is 80% theories. This is what drives science literally: unverified OBSERVABLE phenomena!!! Big Bang, Evolution, and so many others!!!

Digest the below and marry it with the above.



1: In science, it's called a 'Theory' if not yet a 'Law' or Formula. For it to be one, it must pass through a verification process relative to expected outcome that are usually 'Substrate Neutral and according to certain 'Guidelines'. This however changes with the branch of science in question and applications of it. .

You have displayed a layman understanding of scientific theory up there, and still think you're qualified to teach anyone science?

You went to do a Google search and don't understand what you researched. Go and find out from trained scientist ,who studied it in the university, what is scientific theory in the sciences and come back here to inform me what you're told.
.

2: You need to get how the system works--the Peer Review System.

It's basically an assessment of your work to check if it meets certain standard (Relative to the Guide' IN YOUR FIELD. This could be anything like the study of the Paranormality of ECK Masters!!! In other words, the Peers are people who are equally versed in what you do. So you can't take Peers from Microbiology to review Parapsychology!.

Another Google search you didn't understand.
.

A field of study is Pneumatology. It is a branch of theology that deals with the study of the 'Holy Spirit'. Left to your "body of science", it's "lie lie lie". I suppose you will send in a letter of reprieve and 'rubbishment' that a certain "body of science" had not yet "scientifically verified" this thing called "Holy Spirit"..

Just imagine the wayward comparison. So, Pneumatology a branch of theology which studies the ' holy spirit' is now part of the natural sciences such as physics, chemistry etc ?

Chai ! no wonder.
I now understand better the person I have been chatting with. This is the last reply from me.
.

3: More to open your consciousness: An intrepid maverick by the name Maxwell Chikumbutso invented a power generator that runs out of 'nothing'. Your "scientifically approved" guys went to check it out here in Africa Zimbabwe, they are Peers.

They did all manner of tests and couldn't identify any point where the 'laws of conservation of energy' held sway. Even for this reason, the guy can't yet secure a patent on this because he has no "Peers". Still, the generator powered cars non-stop, he fitted it into a TV that connects to no grid. The tech is featured in the documentary "Thrive 2" where world-acclaimed physicists where the Peers. I suppose since your "body of scientists" could not make anything of how the tech works, he was deceiving people. . .

He is not deceiving people .Unlike you who says something but cannot provide proof or demonstrate it, only sharing stories. The young man didn't not share any story. He showed them the real thing live and direct.

It's just a matter of time for the scientists looking at it to rationally explained how it works, and who knows, he might even win a Nobel prize for his invention after .

Scientific truths are rationally explained truths. If it cannot be rationally explained then, it's not considered science yet. The things you learnt in schools in the sciences are thoroughly explained to show how they work. The term, Eck or holy spirit is never used in the natural sciences to describe anything. Don't use that to confuse your followers.

Scientists talk of energy and not holy spirit or Eck. Eckankar is using Eck to replace energy. I'm aware of that, but it's a way to connect what they do with science.




.

Lol, "scientific methods" are just yardsticks that some folks agree between themselves. They are not static but dynamic, the yardstick keeps changing to absorb new knowledge because we "we learn everyday".

Science has branches, "scientific methods" that applies in Chemical Engineering does not apply in Sociology or Economics. This is why it beats me to see you running the little antic of introducing the "scientific body" game just so to say Eckankar claims are not verified in one lab likely in the USA .

I don't think you know much about the scientific method.

Economics is social science and not the same as the natural sciences You want to confuse me here as usual. But you failed again.

While Social scientists work with experiential data , those in the natural sciences work with experimental data. So they both cannot be compared in their use of the scientific method.


You claimed that physics is a branch of Eckankar , meaning it's part of the natural sciences and also a higher form of it. If that's true can you please mention just one experimental data eckist are currently working with or have worked with to prove Eckankar claims. Just one.

What you have posted here so far as proof are personal experiences.



.

Guess how "scientifically proven" is done in disciplines like psychology and sociology for instance? Same way you have people who experience something like the ECK Masters in Eckankar.

It a no brainer!!! Random sets of people come in and identify these Masters often years before finding out they are real and there are others who continue to work with them DAILY. Not just daily, but PHYSICALLY, often with distinct scents that accompanies the presence of these guys who do some real stuff like giving them stuff in the dream and the wake up to find it with them, or healing them of diseases that awon "scientifically proven" can't heal!!!

Funny man! .

You are talking to me forgetting that I didn't hear about Eckankar just yesterday. Most of the things you mentioned up there were some of the things I also repeated to others about Eckankar. You only me reminded of the past. That's all.

You're the funny man here.

I never affirmed that if something is not scientifically proven that it means it cannot work or is not true.

Some herbal medicine are not scientifically proven but work better than the orthodox one. On their labels you usually find the disclaimer from the FDA that the claims of cure made by using the product is yet to be proven . Is that not so?

There are alternative methods to prove or discover truth in the world that we live in ,but these other methods, even though they sometimes work or a far effective, are still regarded as pseudoscience, by trained scientists in the natural sciences..

You haven't been able to demonstrate the science that is Eckankar on this thread up till now yet you want the public to accept your claims that it's a higher form of scientific practice.

.

If it works, there goes the 'Scientific Proof', No Peer review needed. If it doesn't, then it is a theory that needs subjecting to methods laid down by the manufacturers on how to use the supposed fake medicine. If it fails, it is fake. Follow the manufacturer's method that led to their claims, if the effects are reproducable, there is your 'science'!

The Igbo traditional healers use steam from some plants to cure Iba. Those are the procedures, use " the steam and cover yourself in it", Iba is gone! USA people don't have that in their "procedures" and no one needs a "body of science" for that. .

I already explained this. Above, and it's not the first time.
Trained scientists in the main body of science don't stop with 'if it works' , then it's good. They also want to know what causes it to work so it can be replicated by others: Why did it work and can it be rationally explained in a way everyone can understand it?
If you go online to search ,you will get a very detailed explanation of how the phone you're currently using works to enable you make call and post on Nairaland. Nothing is hidden.


.

Lol, refer to the above.



The stories shared in this thread as I have told you earlier is proof. There is no such a thing as randomity in nature as it where. People just can't have inner and outer experiences with distinct and specific set of Non-existent set of people called the ECK Masters as you try hard to make people believe.

Studies have been conducted on the matter of death, it's not under a microscope as you have us reason, they ask people their experiences lol, same thing you try hard to rubbish here. What these people report is what most set of the group report: "Passing under a tunnel of darkness to a light".

Who conducted these researches: "A body of Scientists" lol..

NDE experiences is currently being studied in the sciences. Google, AWARE11 , for latest updates. You cannot compare NDE with those of meeting with Eck masters. The later is wholly subjective.

People who have had an NDE would sometimes report, after been resuscitated, some of the things doctors were doing to bring them round at the time they were pronounced clinically dead, proving that the experience is not hallucinatory or completely subjective.

Morever, scientist studying NDE have been able to observe through modern brain scanners some of the activities going on in the brain when people are having those experiences.. The knowledge gathered so far has helped them to determine the exact period people pronounced clinically dead have NDE.

Even though they still cannot explain everything, they now agree people actually have those experiences, and that not all of it is hallucination. This wasn't arrivedd at through guesswork or by only listening to NDE stories alone, but by a meticulous study of the phenomenon.

For Eck masters nothing is known only unverified stories of people who claimed to have met them.

The main reason why it's difficult to sell Eck masters to the public is that there's evidence Paul created them.

Members of Eckankar either don't know this or know it but afraid to look at the evidence for fear of losing their beliefs. The first time I knew of it, I was disappointed and didn't waste my time to walk away. I don't like being deceived and I also try not to deceive anyone.

.

What was the yardstick or 'Guide': The oral reports of people who where once clinically "dead".

What was the outcome? Same "Tunnel... light"

The didn't go through or see the rainboots of Superman, or the Mainland bridge, their reports had a single thread running all of them!!! Science MR!!!


We learn daily!.

You are not coherent here. It's not the 'oral reports' alone I will post a link for you to see what's actually being done at the moment

.

Hahahaha, na you we suppose ask you o, you so many years there yet here you are and someone who joined Eckankar from Nairaland is giving 'disturbing' updates .

Actually, Jesus has a parable on that. It's found in the Book of Matthew 13:1-23.

We learn everyday!.

You only repeated what I have done away with for long. Nothing you can tell me about Eckankar that I have not heard before.

.

Lol, it's basic use of English where ones application of Semantics and Pragmatics could have been of help. It means the people who use a form of Soul Travel are 'Scientists', simple!

Meanwhile, till today, scientists are still bringing counter arguments on established scientific facts like on 'photons' for instance. You on the other hand are fixated on some beef. If science have branches, how can someone say all scientists adopt what other scientists adopt? Crazy indeed.

.

You just want to use any means to connect Eckankar with objective science when there's no such connection at all. You don't care if it makes any sense or not to do so.
.

There goes several answers to your affront on Eckankar!!! First, science study the body of ECK which forms the physical. In other words, any material thing is a condensate of the ECK at the highest level and the Atom or Matter at the coarse or base level.

Current apparatus with earth scientists are limited to the material atom indeed and people who know what they are doing admit this limit, when would you yours?

Scientists however have made headway in going beyond the atomic level with new machines I hinted on earlier.

If you have not yet grasped the above, invite me to a thread so we can go into the Eckankar-Physics relation. This thread is already over-derailed.

You have been usimg Eckankar terminology to describe what is being done in the natural sciences in order to link it to Eckankar. That's deception.

You can only deceive the gullible public with that ,and not me. The natural sciences and Eckankar are two parallel lines. They don't meet.

The word, Eck, is not understood by outsiders to mean anything. Scientists don't use that word to describe anything they're dealing with, and there's no dictionary, except Eckankar dictionary that the word, Eck, is described the way it's understood by eckist. I can equally fit in the word, 'mago mago' in the place where you have using ,Eck to link it with objective natural sciences, without any change in meaning. I will also declare that 'mago mago' means the holy spirit.

Use a common language next time if you are sincere and not trying to deceive the public. I know you cannot do that because everything you have explained is exactlly how it's explained in Eckankar, and you cannot deviate from it, without getting into trouble. You will be sanctioned for departing from Eckankar teachings and doctrine.

Finally, the blame for the thread being derailed belongs to you.

That's why I won't be responding again ,unless you answer directly to my first comments of how it is possible for anybody to still continue to live in their physical body for 500 years now.

Or provide evidences that can be independently verify concerning your claims . Anything else is ignored from this moment.

Thank you.

triplechoice:
Where did you read that scientists have accepted soul as real or that humans have a soul? It's only amomgs those who study spirituality that the soul is recognised .

If you don't know the difference between individual scientists working on their own and other groups of
trained scientists in the natural sciences who are expected to publish their research findings for it to be peer reviewed by others before it can be accepted as fact, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can tell you again, not especially after you already boasted that you can teach me quantum physics.

You call peer review journal *ss journal? SMH
.

I don't have your assumed game plan. It's your habit to just imagine anything and immediately shift it to me.

You were the one, not me, that bought the science talk into the discussion. You first declared that Eckankar is science and also that physics is one of its branches. Have you forgotten so soon?

Labelling anything science or scientifically proven is not enough. Anybody can make that claim. The important thing after such declaration is to demonstrate it or provide evidence . if not , you have made an empty claim.

I have asked you severally to substantiate your claims, but each time instead of responding directly, you went off on a tangent to lecture me on metaphor, fiction, quantum physics, imagination, astral plane and what not that has no relevance to the question asked.

Eckankar is not taught in public schools as part of the natural science,. So why do you expect the public to swallow your claim without questioning it?
.
You have displayed a layman understanding of scientific theory up there, and still think you're qualified to teach anyone science?

You went to do a Google search and don't understand what you researched. Go and find out from trained scientist ,who studied it in the university, what is scientific theory in the sciences and come back here to inform me what you're told.
. Another Google search you didn't understand.
.

Just imagine the wayward comparison. So, Pneumatology a branch of theology which studies the ' holy spirit' is now part of the natural sciences such as physics, chemistry etc ?

Chai ! no wonder.
I now understand better the person I have been chatting with. This is the last reply from me.
.

He is not deceiving people .Unlike you who says something but cannot provide proof or demonstrate it, only sharing stories. The young man didn't not share any story. He showed them the real thing live and direct.

It's just a matter of time for the scientists looking at it to rationally explained how it works, and who knows, he might even win a Nobel prize for his invention after .

Scientific truths are rationally explained truths. If it cannot be rationally explained then, it's not considered science yet. The things you learnt in schools in the sciences are thoroughly explained to show how they work. The term, Eck or holy spirit is never used in the natural sciences to describe anything. Don't use that to confuse your followers.

Scientists talk of energy and not holy spirit or Eck. Eckankar is using Eck to replace energy. I'm aware of that, but it's a way to connect what they do with science.




.

I don't think you know much about the scientific method.

Economics is social science and not the same as the natural sciences You want to confuse me here as usual. But you failed again.

While Social scientists work with experiential data , those in the natural sciences work with experimental data. So they both cannot be compared in their use of the scientific method.


You claimed that physics is a branch of Eckankar , meaning it's part of the natural sciences and also a higher form of it. If that's true can you please mention just one experimental data eckist are currently working with or have worked with to prove Eckankar claims. Just one.

What you have posted here so far as proof are personal experiences.



. You are talking to me forgetting that I didn't hear about Eckankar just yesterday. Most of the things you mentioned up there were some of the things I also repeated to others about Eckankar. You only me reminded of the past. That's all.

You're the funny man here.

I never affirmed that if something is not scientifically proven that it means it cannot work or is not true.

Some herbal medicine are not scientifically proven but work better than the orthodox one. On their labels you usually find the disclaimer from the FDA that the claims of cure made by using the product is yet to be proven . Is that not so?

There are alternative methods to prove or discover truth in the world that we live in ,but these other methods, even though they sometimes work or a far effective, are still regarded as pseudoscience, by trained scientists in the natural sciences..

You haven't been able to demonstrate the science that is Eckankar on this thread up till now yet you want the public to accept your claims that it's a higher form of scientific practice.

. I already explained this. Above, and it's not the first time.
Trained scientists in the main body of science don't stop with 'if it works' , then it's good. They also want to know what causes it to work so it can be replicated by others: Why did it work and can it be rationally explained in a way everyone can understand it?
If you go online to search ,you will get a very detailed explanation of how the phone you're currently using works to enable you make call and post on Nairaland. Nothing is hidden.


.

NDE experiences is currently being studied in the sciences. Google, AWARE11 , for latest updates. You cannot compare NDE with those of meeting with Eck masters. The later is wholly subjective.

People who have had an NDE would sometimes report, after been resuscitated, some of the things doctors were doing to bring them round at the time they were pronounced clinically dead, proving that the experience is not hallucinatory or completely subjective.

Morever, scientist studying NDE have been able to observe through modern brain scanners some of the activities going on in the brain when people are having those experiences.. The knowledge gathered so far has helped them to determine the exact period people pronounced clinically dead have NDE.

Even though they still cannot explain everything, they now agree people actually have those experiences, and that not all of it is hallucination. This wasn't arrivedd at through guesswork or by only listening to NDE stories alone, but by a meticulous study of the phenomenon.

For Eck masters nothing is known only unverified stories of people who claimed to have met them.

The main reason why it's difficult to sell Eck masters to the public is that there's evidence Paul created them.

Members of Eckankar either don't know this or know it but afraid to look at the evidence for fear of losing their beliefs. The first time I knew of it, I was disappointed and didn't waste my time to walk away. I don't like being deceived and I also try not to deceive anyone.

. You are not coherent here. It's not the 'oral reports' alone I will post a link for you to see what's actually being done at the moment

.

You only repeated what I have done away with for long. Nothing you can tell me about Eckankar that I have not heard before.

. You just want to use any means to connect Eckankar with objective science when there's no such connection at all. You don't care if it makes any sense or not to do so.
.


You have been usimg Eckankar terminology to describe what is being done in the natural sciences in order to link it to Eckankar. That's deception.

You can only deceive the gullible public with that ,and not me. The natural sciences and Eckankar are two parallel lines. They don't meet.

The word, Eck, is not understood by outsiders to mean anything. Scientists don't use that word to describe anything they're dealing with, and there's no dictionary, except Eckankar dictionary that the word, Eck, is described the way it's understood by eckist. I can equally fit in the word, 'mago mago' in the place where you have using ,Eck to link it with objective natural sciences, without any change in meaning. I will also declare that 'mago mago' means the holy spirit.

Use a common language next time if you are sincere and not trying to deceive the public. I know you cannot do that because everything you have explained is exactlly how it's explained in Eckankar, and you cannot deviate from it, without getting into trouble. You will be sanctioned for departing from Eckankar teachings and doctrine.

Finally, the blame for the thread being derailed belongs to you.

That's why I won't be responding again ,unless you answer directly to my first comments of how it is possible for anybody to still continue to live in their physical body for 500 years now.

Or provide evidences that can be independently verify concerning your claims . Anything else is ignored from this moment.

Thank you.

You missed the meaning of the paragraph you quoted on your first paragraph.

Try to understand words even from their face values so you won't need to insinuate we use Google to digest basic compound sentences and words, do this for especially the word "Science". "Peer review" has its meaning staring at you in the face even for someone who didn't do any form of research.

After you grasp the meaning of the two words in their conventional definition and application, come back let's talk of how to scientifically verify ECK Masters. Remember, be sure to come with a conventional definition of "Science", I have already broken down "peer review" earlier. This is crucial especially how you chose to construe the word "science".


Science, has words for ECK, God and Soul.
That you mentioned scientists don't use the term "ECK" as validation for your point expresses naivety on a basic level where it is common knowledge that most body of knowledge and discipline use terms relative to their field while dealing with same thing.

If science says "energy" and I use "ECK", I don't see how this help you establish any basis of attack on Eckankar considering the definitions of both terms by both parties.


I am not sure at what point I told you this thread is to link Eckankar with natural sciences even though the whole of the natural sciences and social sciences are sub-branches of the science of Eckankar. You have further not responded to us having a specific thread for that.

I am not sure why you will not have it that Physics is a branch of Eckankar without making an effort to grasp the meaning of Eckankar in view of your obvious futile romance with it. I am sure however that you know that this would somehow demystify Eckankar to the public and this is likely not good for your motives.

I suggest you digest the discourse between Rebazar Tarzs and a student of Eckankar on what Eckankar could possibly be. It is the latest story above.

Triplechoice

The main reason why it's difficult to sell Eck masters to the public is that there's evidence Paul created them.

Members of Eckankar either don't know this or know it but afraid to look at the evidence for fear of losing their beliefs. The first time I knew of it, I was disappointed and didn't waste my time to walk away. I don't like being deceived and I also try not to deceive anyone.

If you marry your earlier admittance that scientists themselves recognize the limit of their apparatus and systems and also to the fact that, a Universal creator for instance cannot or had not been scientifically proven and many others, then you will see the futility of your argument on the aforementioned less than you will see it in a case where several people especially me, meet DISTINCT "inventions" of Paul Twitchell (often) years before hearing of them anywhere else personally or in dreams and NDE, often perfectly describing the looks, smell, etc of these beings.

It gets more difficult for you where these "inventions" or "phantoms" are able to perform everyday actions physically and even cause supernatural events like healing to occur.

This summarizes your dilemma.

chieveboy:


You missed the meaning of the paragraph you quotes first.

Try to understand words even from their face values so you won't need to insinuate we use Google to digest basic compound sentences and words, do this for especially the word "Science". "Peer review" has its meaning staring at you in the face even for someone who didn't do any form of research.

After you grasp the meaning of the two words in their conventional definition and application, come back let's talk of how to scientifically verify ECK Masters. Remember, be sure to come with a conventional definition of "Science", I have already broken down "peer review" earlier.


Science has words for ECK, God and Soul.
That you mentioned scientists don't use the term "ECK" as validation for your point expresses naivety on a basic level where it is common knowledge that most body of knowledge and discipline use terms relative to their field while dealing with same thing.

If you were sincere or progressive, perhaps you would have sought definition of those terms ( despite the fact that I did that from the beginning of the thread).

I am not sure at what point I told you this thread is to link Eckankar with natural sciences even though the whole of the natural sciences and social sciences are sub-branches of the science of Eckankar.

I am not sure why you will not have it that the Physics is a branch of Eckankar. I am sure however that you know that this would somehow demystify Eckankar to the public, this is not good for your ambition.

Lol . Which ambition? This is Nairaland. Once you post anything here expect it to be challenged. You want to guilt trip me?

The other time it was beef and then later an affront against Eckankar. Talking of affront, do you know what it means for a person or organisation to mislead another person with lies to make them act irrationally for years believing they were doing the right thing.

I don't hold on to anything, and it's the reason I still say Eckankar has its good side, something I know some ex members would never admit I know of someone who angrily left with all the property he once donated to Eckankar for use. You can imagine that.

I suspect you're trying to postulate me into something that's all. It won't work.

Please just focus on your Op which has to do with the Eck masters .

I had mentioned at the beginning that the Eck masters such as Rebazar Tarz were fictional creation of Paul Twitchell. I still stand by that. The ball is in your court to prove me wrong. I'm not interested in your peer review, physics , or meaning of any word deflections

What do you want to tell me now? , 'Eck', means spirit and that
'ankar' means, the way and when put together, Eckankarr means the way of the holy spirit?

You want me to keep reminding you that I knew of Eckankar before you?
Just focus on your Op so the thread is not derailed again or better still, ignore me. If you can't answer my question about Rebazar Tarz.

triplechoice:


Lol . Which ambition? This is Nairaland. Once you post anything here expect it to be challenged. You want to guilt trip me?

The other time it was beef and then later an affront against Eckankar. Talking of affront, do you know what it means for a person or organisation to mislead another person with lies to make them act irrationally for years believing they were doing the right thing.

I don't hold on to anything, and it's the reason I still say Eckankar has its good side, something I know some ex members would never admit I know of someone who angrily left with all the property he once donated to Eckankar for use. You can imagine that.

I suspect you're trying to postulate me into something that's all. It won't work.

Please just focus on your Op which has to do with the Eck masters .

I had mentioned at the beginning that the Eck masters such as Rebazar Tarz were fictional creation of Paul Twitchell. I still stand by that. The ball is in your court to prove me wrong. I'm not interested in your peer review, physics , or meaning of any word deflections

What do you want to tell me now? , 'Eck', means spirit and that
'ankar' means, the way and when put together, Eckankarr means the way of the holy spirit?

You want me to keep reminding you that I knew of Eckankar before you?
Just focus on your Op so the thread is not derailed again or better still, ignore me. If you can't answer my question about Rebazar Tarz.

If you understand the basics of what constitute the Peer Review System, set it up and let's go to work verifying Rebazar Tarzs. This is the only reasonable way.

chieveboy:


If you marry your earlier admittance that scientists themselves recognize the limit of their apparatus and systems and also to the fact that, a Universal creator for instance cannot or had not been scientifically proven and many others, then you will see the futility of your argument on the aforementioned less than you will see it in a case where several people especially me, meet DISTINCT "inventions" of Paul Twitchell (often) years before hearing of them anywhere else personally or in dreams and NDE, often perfectly describing the looks, smell, etc of these beings.

It gets more difficult for you where these "inventions" or "phantoms" are able to perform everyday actions physically and even cause supernatural events like healing to occur.

This summarizes your dilemma.

It's said that what you don't know or understand is what other people who know it can use to scam or deceive you. I have tried to explain why people have those experiences, but it's not yet making sense to you. The time will come.

Eck masters are not the only phantom beings people have experienced.

Just provide an experiment people can conduct themselves to prove the Eck masters are real. That's how things are done n the natural sciences where attention is more on experimentation
to prove something before it's later observed and confirmed in natural settings.

You said Eckankar is connected to physics. Let's see that without any time wasting.

chieveboy:


If you understand the basics of what constitute the Peer Review System, set it up and let's go to work verifying Rebazar Tarzs. This is the only reasonable way.

Lol. You want to put the cart before the horse. First of all demonstrate your truth here before you talk about peer review. It's between you and me now.

Peer review is for the public after you must succeeded in demonstrating in private what you know.

triplechoice:


Lol. You want to put the cart before the horse. First of all demonstrate your truth here before you talk about peer review. It's between you and me now.

Peer review is for the public after you must succeeded in demonstrating in private what you know.

My truth is demonstrated to a large extent from my experiences on the subject and that of others I have shared here. It is substantial even based on scientific yardsticks, given that same outcome of an exactness in the physical appearance and attributes of the Masters is obtained from each accounts from neutral and u related subjects of the 'experiment' where some are shared by the organization.

You keep seeking "a neutral group" for the study, but it was derived from those in Theosophy, Buddhism, Christianity and even atheism. The neutrality was even such that subjects of the experience where not subjected to any form of suggestion whatsoever especially in my case as a clueless Sunday-School-going child!!!

The idea of asking you to grasp the Peer Review system is that just you alone could form one, you could in every ramification of it and the process given the hypothesis at hand. At least you have the basic qualification as especially an informed critic.

So now have the awareness to request a "scientific process" to verify the Masters right?,you however didn't ask this earlier but was emphatic by saying "lies lies lies" to the account of people on the Eck Masters.

That was the actual putting of the cart before the horse, and is what inspired the prognosis of "Eckankar Beefer" and other adjectives I described you. They were apt and exact! It was based on obvious data you left behind not a "guilt shaming". Infact it is a form of guilt-shaming to say I was guilt-shaming you based on the apparrent cart on front of your horse.

It will take you a while to grasp that the mere stories I share here are scientific proof in the sense of the word. And that Eckankar being novel relative to the conventionality of mainstream science and it's research methodologies (much like millions of other uncovered grounds by mainstream science) has equally novel and unconventional processes for it's science.

At least you earlier admitted to the limit of current scientific systems and equally admitted to science not fully graping matters like some African medicine for instance. The only exception you have proven to make to this reality is when Eckankar is involved.

Can you see why we see what we see in terms of your apparent intent and motive although very very inconsequential after all is said and done?

chieveboy:


My truth is demonstrated to a large extent from my experiences on the subject and that of others I have shared here. It is substantial even based on scientific yardsticks, given that same outcome of an exactness in the physical appearance and attributes of the Masters is obtained from each accounts from neutral and u related subjects of the 'experiment' where some are shared by the organization.

You keep seeking "a neutral group" for the study, but it was derived from those in Theosophy, Buddhism, Christianity and even atheism. The neutrality was even such that subjects of the experience where not subjected to any form of suggestion whatsoever especially in my case as a clueless Sunday-School-going child!!!

The idea of asking you to grasp the Peer Review system is that just you alone could form one, you could in every ramification of it and the process given the hypothesis at hand. At least you have the basic qualification as especially an informed critic.

So now have the awareness to request a "scientific process" to verify the Masters right?,you however didn't ask this earlier but was emphatic by saying "lies lies lies" to the account of people on the Eck Masters.

That was the actual putting of the cart before the horse, and is what inspired the prognosis of "Eckankar Beefer" and other adjectives I described you. They were apt and exact! It was based on obvious data you left behind not a "guilt shaming". Infact it is a form of guilt-shaming to say I was guilt-shaming you based on the apparrent cart on front of your horse.

It will take you a while to grasp that the mere stories I share here are scientific proof in the sense of the word. And that Eckankar being novel relative to the conventionality of mainstream science and it's research methodologies (much like millions of other uncovered grounds by mainstream science) has equally novel and unconventional processes for it's science.

At least you earlier admitted to the limit of current scientific systems and equally admitted to science not fully graping matters like some African medicine for instance. The only exception you have proven to make to this reality is when Eckankar is involved.

Can you see why we see what we see in terms of your apparent intent and motive although very very inconsequential after all is said and done?

Round about talk as usual without demonstrating anything.

Rebazar Tarz is a fictional character created by Paul Twitchell. That's a fact.. There's no Tibetan that's over 500 years old

Be bold to search for the information on this and know the truth. Start from there first.

Exam you never pass. You dey ask for certificate.

Person wey never produce bottle water nor they demand for NAFDAC approval.(peer review)

Produce something first make people see.

triplechoice:


Round about talk as usual without demonstrating anything.

Rebazar Tarz is a fictional character created by Paul Twitchell. That's a fact.. There's no Tibetan that's over 500 years old

Be bold to search for the information on this and know the truth. Start from there first.

Exam you never pass. You dey ask for certificate.

Person wey never produce bottle water nor they demand for NAFDAC approval.(peer review)

Produce something first make people see.

How about we keep it simple and in your terms:

Produce a scientific fact to your "evidence" that Paul manufactured the Eck Masters. Remember you earlier mentioned a certain evidence existed to such claim.

Let's start from there at least.

chieveboy:


How about we keep it simple and in your terms:

Produce a scientific fact to your "evidence" that Paul manufactured the Eck Masters. Remember you earlier mentioned a certain evidence existed to such claim.

Let's start from there at least.

The burden of proof is on you ,and not me.

Defend your Op first. Don't run away.

triplechoice:

The burden of proof is on you ,and not me.

Defend your Op first. Don't run away.

I provided such from people collected from all manner of backgrounds like Christianity, Islam, atheism and so on. I even hinted on mine and my dad's. Eckankar further provided methodologies to contact these ascended masters.

From the look of things, you're actually with the ball, especially how you rather prefer "scientific" corroboration to things like this. I like you to set an example.

Waiting...

chieveboy:


I provided such from people collected from all manner of backgrounds like Christianity, Islam, atheism and so on. I even hinted on mine and my dad's. Eckankar further provided methodologies to contact these ascended masters.

From the look of things, you're actually with the ball, especially how you rather prefer "scientific" corroboration to things like this. I like you to set an example.

Waiting...

Personal stories are not proofs. You should know that already.

Provide proofs that Rebazar is from Tibet and was once a living Eck master.

triplechoice:


Personal stories are not proofs. You should know that already.

Provide proofs that Rebazar is from Tibet and was once a living Eck master.

You will wonder how scientists who conduct research on NDE perform such research lol.

Personal stories are no proof indeed

chieveboy:


You will wonder how scientists who conduct research on NDE perform such research lol.

Personal stories are no proof indeed

You are not current about NDE studies.

At the moment scientists have found a way to verify NDE unlike in the past when it wasn't possible to so . That's the difference.

Your stories are not yet verified to be true and besides Paul created Rebazar Tarz and Gopal Das.

And you think Eckankar is the only religion where members share similar stories. No.


I already ask you to search for AWARE11 studies to see how scientists are currently verifying NDE and compare it with your own Eckankar stories.

Please don't deflect again into NDE. Focus on your Op.

triplechoice:

You are not current about NDE studies.

At the moment scientists have found a way to verify NDE unlike in the past when it wasn't possible to so . That's the difference.

Your stories are not yet verified to be true and besides Paul created Rebazar Tarz and Gopal Das.

And you think Eckankar is the only religion where members share similar stories. No.


I already ask you to search for AWARE11 studies to see how scientists are currently verifying NDE and compare it with your own Eckankar stories.

Please don't deflect again into NDE. Focus on your Op.

Before your AWARE11, weren't people having NDEs? Answering this is crucial to my point because it is only a matter of time and scientists would help us see other 'dimensions' physically, for now, they are only beginning in matters of NDE and such.

Who mentioned only Eckankar share such stories? Who "manufactured" the beings shared in other stories outside Eckankar? Paul?

How come Paul created "lies" that are able to meet people physically and in the inner worlds to talk to them about real-life stuffs even without prior information or clues to and of these "creations" as in the case of me and my dad?


If I invented a phantom, the phantom should not predate my date of invention as it where in the case of people meeting the Masters way before Eckankar's reemergence in 1965.

There are records of Gopal Das in some Egyptian libraries FYI.


Let's pretend we don't care if Paul Invented these guys or not, simply provide logical (if not scientific) clues, reasons to the questions above.

"But one day Soul outgrows these outer movements, which lose their fascination for It. Soul begins to ask questions such as: Who am I?


Where am I going? But no one can answer them except the individual. Then Soul begins the long, hard road to extricate Itself from the group consciousness and regain Its individuality.

This is when the ECK Masters step in to offer their assistance, and thus the path of ECK appears when the time is ripe. Now do you see how this all ties together?"

"I think so," I answered. "But then, how can there be an organization carrying the name of Eckankar? Isn't this a contradiction?"

Cont'd.

"There is not much in this world that isn't," he said. "When the ECK, the Life Force, flows into this world It takes every form. It might be a flower, a river, or a solar system.

It might even be a mirage in the desert or a vision of God. The ECK flows into this world but never finds completion or perfection, so It is always changing: always dying in Its old forms to be born into the new.

It might come together to produce a spiritual era, or It might hide for ages behind the traditional teachings. The ECK is all of life, so don't try to fit It into some little box.

Cont'd

"The Living ECK Master might use an organization if his mission dictates it, or he might work with a few close ones as a team.

He is free to use whatever means he can. But the minute his followers begin to feel they are above others, the minute they begin to talk in "shoulds" or "should nots"—or limit in any way a person's individual path of truth—then they can become more of a hindrance than a help.

He might try to lift them beyond these areas, but he cannot force them; and if the situation grows bad enough, he might just leave everything behind and walk the lonely hills by himself, searching for those who truly seek the Light of God.

Cont'd.

chieveboy:


Before your AWARE11, weren't people having NDEs? Answering this is crucial to my point because it is only a matter of time and scientists would help us see other 'dimensions' physically, for now, they are only beginning in matters of NDE and such.

People certainly were having NDE, but the stories that came from it were not verified until recently that scientists are starting to look into it.

Just focus on your Op . AWARE11 is not mine. So don't refer to it as 'your AWARE11' in order to dismiss it .

It's a research study currently being conducted by those in the main body of the sciences drawn from various disciplines, involving neuroscientists, doctors and nurses in some selected hospitals in different parts of the world, and not just
a group of individuall scientists working independently on their own. They're not comparable to creation scientists who are fundamentalist Christians seeking to prove that Bible myths were actual historical events.

So, it's not what you think. If you want to discuss NDE , create another thread for that.

Who mentioned only Eckankar share such stories? Who "manufactured" the beings shared in other stories outside Eckankar? Paul?

Every religion has its egregore( 'manufactured beings')

An egregore is an autonomous non physical entity that has arising from the collective thoughtforms of a group of people.

Every religion or spiritual paths has created its own egregore either consciously or unconsciously. Angelic beings that some persons sometimes report encountering either in dreams or in waking state, are examples of egregores.

The devil or Satan is an egregore. The great white brotherhood, in AMORC is another example of an egregore or egregores.

A spiritual adept who knows how , can consciously create an egregore to control the consciousness of members in any group or movement he or she is seeking to establish or has established. Egregores once formed, starts to feed or depend on the thought energy of those ,who have been drawn into its reality, for its continual existence.

Egregores certainly can provide help and spiritual assistance to anyone who believe and trust in them, but there's a price to pay sometimes which maybe huge and difficult to pay.

The nine silent ones and the other Eck masters which appear to people are all egregores which controls and determines what members of Eckankar, or anyone drawn to the religion experiences.

How come Paul created "lies" that are able to meet people physically and in the inner worlds to talk to them about real-life stuffs even without prior information or clues to and of these "creations" as in the case of me and my dad?

The 'lies' I talked about are the fake version of history he created and superimposed on well known figures in history in order to give Eckankar an impressive historical past to make it appealing to the public.
Pythagoras, Rumi, Lai tso that he changed to Lai tsi, never had anything to do with the rellgion of Eckankar. There's no single connection whatsoever to link them to Eckankar that was created in the sixties.

If I invented a phantom, the phantom should not predate my date of invention as it where in the case of people meeting the Masters way before Eckankar's reemergence in 1965.

You don't know much about Eckankar history. Even though Paul registered Eckankar in 1965, he had already been teaching some group of persons about the religion he was later to register from books he wrote years before that time.

Some of these books were the flute of God and the Tiger's fangs, originally the God Eaters, with contents that were heavily plagiarized from the works of others.

The published dates of those books were not the same day Paul wrote them. He wrote them long before that time. So, what are you talking about?

In the original manuscript of the Tiger's fang, God Eaters, Paul had mentioned kirpal Singh ,one of those who taught him soul travel, as the person who took him on those inner journeys described in the book, but when he broke away from Singh after a quarrel, he replaced his name with the unknown Rebazar Tarz he created in order to get it published later. This information is documented and available online if you search for it.


Still on your question, before anything manifest in the physical plane, it has already happened in the inner where it still can be experienced by anyone. I already mentioned that the higher self has the capability to know things, past, present and future in the present moment. It's not limited by time and space.

It's a surprise to me that inspite of your knowledge of some of the things I have explained concerning the capability of the higher self, soul, which I know you're aware of, you still want to see things from the position of the lower self that's mystified by such experiences.

Don't you think you're trying to deny the truth that you know so well so you can continue to believe?

There are records of Gopal Das in some Egyptian libraries FYI.

Here we go again. Another wild claim not supported by any valid historical document anywhere. Eckankar says so, and without corraboration from elsewhere, it's immediately accepted as fact by you.

What dynasty did Gopal Das create the cult?

Who was the reigning Pharaoh at the time he created the cult?

And where are the links to the libraries, or any books on it. Mention just one name.

Let's pretend we don't care if Paul Invented these guys or not, simply provide logical (if not scientific) clues, reasons to the questions above.

I have done so above.

I'm still waiting for your evidence that a certain Tibetan who is over 500 years old is living in a hut in the Hindu Kush mountain.

triplechoice:
People certainly were having NDE, but the stories that came from it were not verified until recently that scientists are starting to look into it.

Just focus on your Op . AWARE11 is not mine. So don't refer to it as 'your AWARE11' in order to dismiss it .

It's a research study currently being conducted by those in the main body of the sciences drawn from various disciplines, involving neuroscientists, doctors and nurses in some selected hospitals in different parts of the world, and not just
a group of individuall scientists working independently on their own. They're not comparable to creation scientists who are fundamentalist Christians seeking to prove that Bible myths were actual historical events.

You may not be aware, all the guys above would get are nothing beyond 2d representations of 'white matter' reaction to what goes on with the subject. Whats the point? Isn't it to 'verify' NDEs? Does the scanner captures images of the Soul's 'withdrawal'? NO!

The AWARE guys are not the first. Products have been developed off of these 'brain postures' to induce (matching) desired brain states (Alpha, beta theta) using frequency generators or distinct sounds matching these postures. No one sees nothing beyond white matter posing for the camera. no NDE is confirmed owing to the subjectivity of the whole event. If the research captures a subject leaving their body and seeing what they see, that would be your confirmation and not some brain dance images.

So, it's not what you think. If you want to discuss NDE , create another thread for that. Every religion has its egregore( 'manufactured beings')

An egregore is an autonomous non physical entity that has arising from the collective thoughtforms of a group of people.

Every religion or spiritual paths has created its own egregore either consciously or unconsciously. Angelic beings that some persons sometimes report encountering either in dreams or in waking state, are examples of egregores.

The devil or Satan is an egregore. The great white brotherhood, in AMORC is another example of an egregore or egregores.

You shot yourself here trying to mock up a lame explanation on why people met Eck Masters even when there was no active group by Paul especially on the next quote

A spiritual adept who knows how , can consciously create an egregore to control the consciousness of members in any group or movement he or she is seeking to establish or has established. Egregores once formed, starts to feed or depend on the thought energy of those ,who have been drawn into its reality, for its continual existence.

Egregores certainly can provide help and spiritual assistance to anyone who believe and trust in them, but there's a price to pay sometimes which maybe huge and difficult to pay.

The nine silent ones and the other Eck masters which appear to people are all egregores which controls and determines what members of Eckankar, or anyone drawn to the religion experiences.
The 'lies' I talked about are the fake version of history he created and superimposed on well known figures in history in order to give Eckankar an impressive historical past to make it appealing to the public.
Pythagoras, Rumi, Lai tso that he changed to Lai tsi, never had anything to do with the rellgion of Eckankar. There's no single connection whatsoever to link them to Eckankar that was created in the sixties.

Now Paul is a "spiritual adept" (not psychic). I see. Remember the basic operating principle of an Egregore is a social or group consciousness. I suppose you mean here Paul successfully and Masterfully did it even without a group in the case of people meeting Masters before 1930s and further.

You don't know much about Eckankar history. Even though Paul registered Eckankar in 1965, he had already been teaching some group of persons about the religion he was later to register from books he wrote years before that time.

There are incidences of people meeting Masters in the 30s and further. The Sufi Islamics and their literature is replete with cases of people meeting your dreaded Rebazar Tarzs, Fubbi Quantz, and others. Theosophy has literature on Kata Daki and other masters which I have read about.

You actually do not know what 'Eckankar' actually is unfortunately. I notice this ignorance played out in most of your argument especially when you hear that Pythagoras could have been an Eck Master or that it is a Science and more. Further on its "history", my brother it goes beyond time.

Eckankar, Vardankar, Way of Truth, Shabda Yoga any other name you wish to call it or had been called earlier or otherwise deals primarily with riding the cosmic Sound back to wherever it's Source is. This process when engaged kickstarts other processes and effects like Matter, Energy, Space and Time (MEST). In other words, the very actions dealings of Soul with the Cosmic sound GAVE RISE to what is called reality in the psychic universes. MEST then is short for organizations, Cults, Emotions, Imagery, Marriages, Soul Travel, Religions, Dreams, Space. Medicine, Physics, Philosophy, Believes, Politics and any other thing imaginable.

At the core of all of the aforementioned is a singular thread which if ridded of all associations is what Paul calls "ECK" much as he didn't originate the word nor is it not the only word IT is known by, neither is Paul the first to deal with this THING.

The act of 'Riding' this THING back to its Source which Scientists lately found acts like a wave 'somehow' is called "Eckankar", "Vardankar" when done 'directly', this act if done 'indirectly' devolves to the sciences and religions. A dead give away explanation of this is the ten blind men and the elephant riddle you must have heard. The blind who hug the tail of the elephant is your Physics, the one holding the tusk is religion...and so on. Its very simple I suppose.

Still on your question, before anything manifest in the physical plane, it has already happened in the inner where it still can be experienced by anyone. I already mentioned that the higher self has the capability to know things, past, present and future in the present moment. It's not limited by time and space.

It's a surprise to me that inspite of your knowledge of some of the things I have explained concerning the capability of the higher self, soul, which I know you're aware of, you still want to see things from the position of the lower self that's mystified by such experiences.

If you notice, I tend to desist from discussing anything that may necessary fall under "not scientifically proven" with you. In one breath, you will accept non-scientific claims like egregores and whatnots when it suits you, but when Eckankar is mentioned in same breath, you would not have it. This is your problem--a legit personal issues! If you came out as mystic from the beginning who accepts the objective and subjective arts, I would have considered.

Your embrace and romance of the very unproven phenomena of "Egregores", "Soul", "Higher selves" "Phantoms" so far have demonstrated evidence that you only accept non-scientific phenomena when Eckankar is not involved.

Don't you think you're trying to deny the truth that you know so well so you can continue to believe?

Here we go again. Another wild claim not supported by any valid historical document anywhere. Eckankar says so, and without corraboration from elsewhere, it's immediately accepted as fact by you.

What dynasty did Gopal Das create the cult?

Who was the reigning Pharaoh at the time he created the cult?

And where are the links to the libraries, or any books on it. Mention just one name.



I have done so above.

I'm still waiting for your evidence that a certain Tibetan who is over 500 years old is living in a hut in the Hindu Kush mountain.

Incidentally I have stumbled on materials where this dude was written about by an Egyptologist even with old copies of manuscript of some of his work, but here you are...


I will furnish you with materials (free) on Gopal Das if you provide scientific data as to how Paul managed to generate "egregores" and whatnots. God knows I need scientific data or corroboration too.

PYTHAGORAS


Pythagoras was a ECK Master in the Fifth Century B.C., an adept in the
Ancient Order of the Vairagi adepts, and well known as a Greek philosopher.

Pythagoras’ greatest statement was, “So that, ascending into the radiant Ether, midst the Immortals,
shall be thyself a God.” Pythagoras was one of the first who was well versed in the “mys-
teries of what effort is required to do something.”

According to Pythagoras, soul could
be at one of three points in relation to the body. It could be inside the head, just outside
the skull or off at a distance. The great Greek teacher said that the top of the head is the
point where the human merges with the divine.

chieveboy:



If you notice, I tend to desist from discussing anything that may necessary fall under "not scientifically proven" with you. In one breath, you will accept non-scientific claims like egregores and whatnots when it suits you, but when Eckankar is mentioned in same breath, you would not have it. This is your problem--a legit personal issues! If you came out as mystic from the beginning who accepts the objective and subjective arts, I would have considered.

Your embrace and romance of the very unproven phenomena of "Egregores", "Soul", "Higher selves" "Phantoms" so far have demonstrated evidence that you only accept non-scientific phenomena when Eckankar is not involved.





Incidentally I have stumbled on materials where this dude was written about by an Egyptologist even with old copies of manuscript of some of his work, but here you are...


I will furnish you with materials (free) on Gopal Das if you provide scientific data as to how Paul managed to generate "egregores" and whatnots. God knows I need scientific data or corroboration too.

You seem to derive some pleasure from misrepresenting me. I reproduce below what I said in the past on this same thread.

And mind your words please. I don't have any legit personal issues. That's going too far and being reckless with the way you address people. Is that the love Eckankar ask you to share with others?
Stop the personal attacks please and focus on your Op

triplechoice:



Everyone believes something. There's nobody without something that they believe in. Even scientists have what they believe too.

I have shared what I believe on this board too.

But each time I do so, I always issue a disclaimer that what I share doesn't yet find scientific support amongst scientist in the main body of the sciences. With that, I'm always free to share with the public the truth in life I have discovered.

Not every truth in the world is supported or proven in the sciences.

One can use ones knowledge of objective science to validate or explain personal or group truths to the public. But it's deception to then declare next that such truths have become scientifically proven.

Things that are accepted as scientifically proven in the sciences are always published in a peer review journal. That's the only time it's accepted as scientific facts, and not before.

Eckankar truths are not scientifically proven nor is it a branch of physics as you once declared. If that were true, It would be taught in public schools everywhere .


Nobody likes to be deceived. .

triplechoice:


You seem to derive some pleasure from misrepresenting me. I reproduce below what I said in the past on this same thread.

And mind your words please. I don't have any legit personal issues. That's going too far and being reckless with the way you address people. Is that the love Eckankar ask you to share with others?
Stop the personal attacks please and focus on your Op

It was nothing beyond statement of facts and nothing personal. The mango never falls too far from the tree does it?

You never mentioned nor issued any disclaimers or even alluded to such in your explicit statements like "lies lies lies" "Eckankar needs your money", "Paul invented the Masters" "phantoms" , and all such statements that qualify as highly defamatory Paul Twitchell and the organizational Eckankar.

You cunningly employed the 'had-not-been proven-by-any-science' dynamics because you felt it gave you a good basis for your arguments about the validity of the masters, but then in another breath, you admit science is rather infantile in catching up to realities. You set a double standard, to what end and for what motive?

Now, if you had admitted that those online resources you hinted at where you said where the sources for when Paul "invented" the masters too where not really verified no proven by any means you hold "scientific", you would have been absolved of any suspicion of harbouring personal issues with the path. You're only (falsely) mentioning you give disclaimers after I requested scientific proof too, and you never did no alluded to any such disclaimers!

Is that the love Eckankar ask you to share with others?

Awwwn, so you know about the "love" huh? Poor you sir, I am 'legitely' sorry if I hit a nerve, I am! Know however that what you're getting is LOVE, not "love".

At least we have peeled off an unnecessary layer today revealing that the reality that since ECK Masters are no lab rats that scientists could catch and put under their scopes, perhaps science if interested would explore other current or novel scientific methodologies for the venture.

Also you by now, you should be ditching the notion that science not verifying anything lends any discredibility to things! If anything, science had been a very good source of misinformation and deceit afterall. This is if you have your ears to the ground lately.

So please kindly take it by face value. It walked and quacked like a duck because it was one.

chieveboy:


It was nothing beyond statement of facts and nothing personal. The mango never falls too far from the tree does it?

You never mentioned nor issued any disclaimers or even alluded to such in your explicit statements like "lies lies lies" "Eckankar needs your money", "Paul invented the Masters" "phantoms" , and all such statements that qualify as highly defamatory Paul Twitchell and the organizational Eckankar.

You cunningly employed the 'had-not-been proven-by-any-science' dynamics because you felt it gave you a good basis for your arguments about the validity of the masters, but then in another breath, you admit science is rather infantile in catching up to realities. You set a double standard, to what end and for what motive?

Now, if you had admitted that those online resources you hinted at where you said where the sources for when Paul "invented" the masters too where not really verified no proven by any means you hold "scientific", you would have been absolved of any suspicion of harbouring personal issues with the path. You're only (falsely) mentioning you give disclaimers after I requested scientific proof too, and you never did no alluded to any such disclaimers!



Awwwn, so you know about the "love" huh? Poor you sir, I am 'legitely' sorry if I hit a nerve, I am! Know however that what you're getting is LOVE, not "love".

At least we have peeled off an unnecessary layer today revealing that the reality that since ECK Masters are no lab rats that scientists could catch and put under their scopes, perhaps science if interested would explore other current or novel scientific methodologies for the venture.

Also you by now, you should be ditching the notion that science not verifying anything lends any discredibility to things! If anything, science had been a very good source of misinformation and deceit afterall. This is if you have your ears to the ground lately.

So please kindly take it by face value. It walked and quacked like a duck because it was one.

It's not about hitting a nerve as you didn't hit any. it's about calling you out for not showing any form of respect for the people you interact with.

This is not the first time you have thrown caustic comments at me. The evidences are all over this thread.

But I have ignored them , and not react accordingly because I don't want the discussion to degenerate into the ones we see often on this board.. The comment you made has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I have said. It was a very reckless and wayward talk. If I have to respond to that directly, believe me you will run and hide. No one wins a mud slinging contest. You should know that.

I thought you would act like a gentleman just like Benodic who I have never for once seen displaying the kind of overly condescending attitude you have been displaying all along

You think you know all about Eckankar and can defend it? No you don't. Even Harold, your master, wouldn't not answer certain questions you have been using subterfuge to answer.You're certainly overreaching yourself.

Since you want to go the way of some other people here , I think it's high time the discussion is discontinued.

You never tried to provide any direct answers to any of the questions asked concerning your claims but to deflect into irrelevant things to steer the conversion into other areas.

None of your claims have you tried to substantiate. Not even one.

You shouldn't deceive yourself to think we are on the same page on anything here as you try to suggest in this latest reply of yours. There's a difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence. You have tried to blur the lines between the two in order to make me accept some of the things you have said.

You're the one that claim science, not me, and that what you do is scientific, and and blah blah blah.
But to demonstrate the science or provide the scientific proof in support of your claim, you have failed to do so.

You don't talk scientifically proven, you demonstrate it. That's the way it's done in the natural sciences you claim Eckankar is part of.


I don't like deceiving people.I tell it the way it's.,and it's the reason I declared that my claims don't yet find full scientific support, but it doesn't mean they're not true. There are alternative methods of knowing or validating truth as I already explained.

Finally, you can keep your Gopal Das evidences. I don't need them because I know it won't prove anything. There's no valid historical documents anywhere in support of your claims for the phantom being, and even for the other Eck masters.

Paul Twitchell invented all of that. This is public knowledge. Most eckist are not aware of this, or know about it, but have found away around it in order to continue to believe in the teachings of Eckankar.

The article below contains useful information that's corroborated elsewhere to be true

https://innersonickey.org/2016/06/20/the-genealogical-connection-kirpal-singh-paul-twitchell-and-eckankar/

triplechoice:


It's not about hitting a nerve as you didn't hit any. it's about calling you out for not showing any form of respect for the people you interact with.

This is not the first time you have thrown caustic comments at me. The evidences are all over this thread.

But I have ignored them , and not react accordingly because I don't want the discussion to degenerate into the ones we see often on this board.. The comment you made has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I have said. It was a very reckless and wayward talk. If I have to respond to that directly, believe me you will run and hide. No one wins a mud slinging contest. You should know that.

I thought you would act like a gentleman just like Benodic who I have never for once seen displaying the kind of overly condescending attitude you have been displaying all along

You think you know all about Eckankar and can defend it? No you don't. Even Harold, your master, wouldn't not answer certain questions you have been using subterfuge to answer.You're certainly overreaching yourself.

Since you want to go the way of some other people here , I think it's high time the discussion is discontinued.

You never tried to provide any direct answers to any of the questions asked concerning your claims but to deflect into irrelevant things to steer the conversion into other areas.

None of your claims have you tried to substantiate. Not even one.

You shouldn't deceive yourself to think we are on the same page on anything here as you try to suggest in this latest reply of yours. There's a difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence. You have tried to blur the lines between the two in order to make me accept some of the things you have said.

You're the one that claim science, not me, and that what you do is scientific, and and blah blah blah.
But to demonstrate the science or provide the scientific proof in support of your claim, you have failed to do so.

You don't talk scientifically proven, you demonstrate it. That's the way it's done in the natural sciences you claim Eckankar is part of.


I don't like deceiving people.I tell it the way it's.,and it's the reason I declared that my claims don't yet find full scientific support, but it doesn't mean they're not true. There are alternative methods of knowing or validating truth as I already explained.

Finally, you can keep your Gopal Das evidences. I don't need them because I know it won't prove anything. There's no valid historical documents anywhere in support of your claims for the phantom being, and even for the other Eck masters.

Paul Twitchell invented all of that. This is public knowledge. Most eckist are not aware of this, or know about it, but have found away around it in order to continue to believe in the teachings of Eckankar.

...I think I further unblurred the lines between me and ben odic. I mentioned this fact explicitly to someone earlier on this regard. If you do anyhow, you get the stick in a way an Eckist can and should 'administer' it. You didn't know there is that too right? I see you are yet trying another angle of "gentleman" and "love"...

If you must know, there was yet one here whom I gave the Ben odic treatment, the person only loves to troll. You were engaged because I felt your concerns where legit and you walked the talk of that "gentleman"...

You opened up later mentioning "Eckankar needs your money" and all manner of libellous statements.


I invited you to open a thread where we can talk the sciences on Eckankar,you would rather keep on, you were "winning" after all...

If anything, you proved to be yet another troll who consumed baked and unbaked materials on Eckankar elsewhere and felt you should weaponise it here especially that "claims about Eck Masters are not verified elsewhere" and "Paul was a fraud"...

If anything, I did a fantastic job of shinning the light on what holds this little weapon of yours together and it shattered right in your eyes and now you're sobber and needs "love", when that was infact what you're getting all the while.

More can be done if another thread where I present my 'claims' further is opened.

I think You can go now sir, with blessings of course.

chieveboy:


...I think I further blurred the lines between me and ben odic. I mentioned this fact explicitly to someone earlier on this regard. If you do anyhow, you get the stick in a way an Eckist can and should 'administer' it. You didn't know there is that too right? I see you are yet trying another angle of "gentleman" and "love"...

If you must know, there was yet one here whom I gave the Ben odic treatment, the person only loves to troll. You were engaged because I felt your concerns where legit and you walked the talk of that "gentleman"...

You opened up later mentioning "Eckankar needs your money" and all manner of libellous statements.


I invited you to open a thread where we can talk the sciences on Eckankar,you would rather keep on, you were "winning" after all...

If anything, you proved to be yet another troll who consumed baked and unbaked materials on Eckankar elsewhere and felt you should weaponise it here especially that "claims about Eck Masters are not verified elsewhere" and "Paul was a fraud"...

If anything, I did a fantastic job of shinning the light on what holds this little weapon of yours together and it shattered right in your eyes and now you're sobber and needs "love" when that was infact what you're getting.

More can be done if another thread where I present my 'claims' further is opened.

I think You can go now sir, with blessings of course.

You have finally revealed your self, and I'm not surprised. You have been hiding behind a smokescreen of fake love and pretended humility . I know your type back then in Eckankar. You joined for power. You will disappointed in the end

The path of power leads to destruction for those who follow that route.

None of the things I mentioned so far about Eckankar were direct attacks on your person. You are not Eckankar, but want to take it personal and start threatening me? I Lol





Just keep your eckist stick nonsense to yourself so you don't end up fooling yourself.

Everything I have mentioned here are the truth about Excankar. They are supported by evidence.

1. It's true Paul Twitchell set up Eckankar as business venture for profit. True or false?

Yes, Excankar desperately need your money for survival.No true master anywhere will ever charge you money for initiations or anything else. That has been the tradition.Black magicians are the only ones who charge you for the services they offer you.


2. It's on record that Paul admitted to his wife and close friends he was going to use Eckankar to make money for himself and become very rich.But, unfortunately he didn't live long enough to enjoy the fruits of his ' labour: Others are enjoying it now


.3.Most of the Eck teachings were copied from elsewhere.I will be mentioning those later
Copied is putting it midly. He actually stole them and there are enough evidences of how he did that and where he copied from. The first time stumbled on the truth of how he plagiarised the works of others, I felt duped and realised instantly I have been wasting my time , money and energy... The most disappointing one was even copying from the Christian Bible and passing it off as something said by one of the Eck masters, Lai tsi.I shared a link already. Dare go through it and begin to get exposed to the truth

4. Finally, Paul invented some of the Eck masters. The others he superimposed his own fake version of history so as to link them to Eckankar. If it is true Rumi, Plato, Pythagoras, and others were living Eck masters in the past, the million dollar question is, why is there no record of them ever mentioning or using the name of God, Sugmad, which Eckankar claimed is God's ancient and sacred name. Or did God change his name in the sixties when Paul created Eckankar?


The above started information can be verified
Go verify them.

You want to go where you will bitterly regret.

This is a public forum where I have family and friends who may be deceived by the lies of your Eck teachings. I take it upon myself to protect them just like others helped me to break free in the past.

If you think what you are spreading here are facts, then quit the ad hominem are defend them. But you surely can't do that hence the personal attacks and the threat.

triplechoice:


You have finally revealed your self, and I'm not surprised. You have been hiding behind a smokescreen of fake love and pretended humility . I know your type back then in Eckankar. You joined for power. You will disappointed in the end

Modified*

I thought to make it simpler for you on the guilt-tripping:

1: I can give it to you hot if the occasion warrants and feel no iota of guilt about it. I understand your dynamics of blackmail too well. You can even write Chanhassen about my 'uneckist' attitude. It's all an antic

2: Of course you never directed any "attack" on me and non were directed at your person either. See below.

3: You seem to be mistaking the Master strokes applied to showcase your motive and intent for "personal attacks", anyways, I told you earlier above: emotional blackmail is not for me.

4: Please bring all the fact out. I am here waiting for you lol, I am so happy to hear that threat .

Thanks.