raumdeuter:


People in Kansas a reliably Republican state voted for abortion. I guess those people are not conservatives since they voted for abortion

There are some conservatives who are pro abortion, and some liberals who are anti abortion

you will be shocked how they go around showing their demagoguery without even knowing it.

Xavier5:


But the sperm, bacteria, plant cells are not living human organisms. The question is not if the fetus is living, but if it's a human life... or in this case, a living human life.



The argument is not whether it has attained sentience, but if it's a living human organism. If it is, then who gives any one the right to kill a human life? If it is, and if human life irrespective of race, gender, intelligence, viability, socio-economic status, or stage of development, have intrinsic value (thanks to the universal intrinsic knowing of the value of human life), then who gives anyone the right to kill a human life with intrinsic value?

Also, according to your definition of personhood, new born babies and people on life support, aren't persons since they aren't viable enough to live independently. So in other words, we can take the life out of them. I'm so loving this view 😂😏😌

Calling a human life an unwanted object is the equivalence of Nazis and slave owners referring to Jews and blacks as Vermin and animals. Dehumanizing a human life is always the first step to committing crime against it or them. Talk about neo Nazism 😏



As far as the child will be well taken care of by parents or government child care systems, then why not? So what does that have to do with the fact that a human life... in this context, living human life is being killed.



#Xavier

The video below is from Kano, a highly Conservative state, where abortion obviously is illegal. The streets are littered with young boys and girls begging for food

https://youtube.com/shorts/_nEG-66dJZY?si=jklOe5ivbFHgX6pT

To me this is far more dehumanising than abortion.

I wrote a long post on liberals who oppose abortion and conservatives who support abortion but spaaambo00t wont let me post it

wirinet, budaatum, Xavier5

Is the person below Conservative or liberal?

How is Xavier5 different from the man in this above?

A liberal actually a man Long term senator on the Democratic presidential ticket who oppose abortion

Now to the flip side
wirinet budaatum, xavier5
Is the woman in the picture conservative or liberal?

She is a Republican Senator and supports abortion

raumdeuter:
Now to the flip side
wirinet budaatum, xavier5
Is the woman in the picture conservative or liberal?

She is a Republican Senator and supports abortion

when you leave no room for nuance, you won't make any reasonable argument for who is a liberal and who is not.

raumdeuter:
I wrote a long post on liberals who oppose abortion and conservatives who support abortion but spaaambo00t wont let me post it

wirinet, budaatum, Xavier5

Is the person below Conservative or liberal?

I keep saying you have 0 idea how any of this works.
1.) There are lines in between. Someone can be not liberal and not conservative.
2.) You can be personally against abortion like me yet still believe it is a person's choice to make.

raumdeuter:
Now to the flip side
wirinet budaatum, xavier5
Is the woman in the picture conservative or liberal?

She is a Republican Senator and supports abortion

Murkowski is a known moderate.
Again, you have 0 idea how this works.

IjeBos:


I keep saying you have 0 idea how any of this works.
1.) There are lines in between. Someone can be not liberal and not conservative.
2.) You can be personally against abortion like me yet still believe it is a person's choice to make.

Is Tim Kaine personally a liberal or a conservative given his opinions on abortion

IjeBos:


Murkowski is a known moderate.
Again, you have 0 idea how this works.

How is Tim Kaines position different than Xavier5

Does Tim Kaine claim to be liberal?
Is he anti abortion?
Does Xavier5 claim to be liberal?
Is he anti abortion?

bemeruca:
when you leave no room for nuance, you won't make any reasonable argument for who is a liberal and who is not.

There are social conservatives, fiscal conservatives, social liberals, fiscal liberals etc and different iterations Thats why Guiliani, Charlie Baker can be conservatives who support abortion and Tin Kaine, Bob Casey are liberals who oppose abortion

IjeBos:


I keep saying you have 0 idea how any of this works.
1.) There are lines in between. Someone can be not liberal and not conservative.
2.) You can be personally against abortion like me yet still believe it is a person's choice to make.

Dude shut up you are not against abortion. And this shows how all over the place you are. Confused simply put.

raumdeuter:


How is Tim Kaines position different than Xavier5

Does Tim Kaine claim to be liberal?
Is he anti abortion?
Does Xavier5 claim to be liberal?
Is he anti abortion?

My mind can't even comprehend the rubbish you are asking.

Kaine considers himself a left leaning centrist or a moderate. Hence his positions.
Murkowski considers herself a Conservative leaning centrist or a moderate. Hence her positions.
Xavier claims to be a liberal. His positions are contrary to that. He may be a Nigerian liberal or like Murkowski a conservative leaning Moderate.

You somehow think that people must be either Conservative or Liberal.

You should really read a book. You don't understand how much you don't know because you don't read.
I'm not joking. Read some books or editorials in the Newspaper. May make you smarter. But you have such a deficit who knows.

bemeruca:


You are a sick person. You are reporting me to the mods because I said something about FEMA you don't like? Good lawd. You are damaged beyond damage.

Get a life, you are a loser. Everything said is true.

I've never seen such lunacy. Because you don't agree and it's all over the news about FEMA diverting funds, Mods should ban you. I had posted this image below a few days ago.

Bemeruca. Never reveal your details here. This lunatic if he got hold of your address is the type that can call FBI and claim you are an ISIS terrorist or something like that . Or call your employer with a fake story just to have you fired.
Obrigardo though mentally incompetent would never do that. Resident idiot is capable of that.

bemeruca:


You watch idiots speak questions begin to arise.

wirinet thinks you cannot be a liberal and oppose Abortion.

Group think. If you are a liberal these are the tenets you must believe in and advocate for
LGBTQ
Abortion
etc etc

bemeruca:


you will be shocked how they go around showing their demagoguery without even knowing it.

A lot of conservatives including married get unplanned pregnancies and seek abortions.
Abortion ban if put to secret ballot would never pass anywhere including the Vatican I guess.

IjeBos:


1.) Independent isn't the middle of Conservative and Liberal. Moderate is.

2.) You've made the choice to call yourself a liberal, I'm not sure why. Is their power in that word?
Some people's perspective range. And so I'm not sure why anyone would want to be constrained by one box. I have social conservative views but I'm liberal in the rest of my thinking. I'm a registered independent because neither the Dems pr Republicans fully encapsulate my views.
I think that's ok.

P Diddy and his freak off party lovers would love abortions a day before birth for obvious reasons.
Jeffrey Epstein would like abortions also for obvious reasons.
A lot of women, married and unmarried get unplanned pregnancies and seek abortions. Liberals get pregnant, flaunt baby bumps on social media, 8th month discovers baby daddy is a creep , so she aborts the baby.
Abortion should be controlled somehow.

IjeBos:


Your Bullshit are not Facts.

Who was in that Senate panel? Had some members been briefed of efforts to spy on Trump by Comey long before elections of 2016.
Didn't the IG find that the opening of Crossfire Hurricane had no predicate

basilico:


Group think. If you are a liberal these are the tenets you must believe in and advocate for
LGBTQ
Abortion
etc etc

As a liberal, I don't believe in and certainly won't advocate for LGBTQ. Having said that, I believe sex is a private affair and what two consenting adults do in the privacy of the bedroom is non of my business. My problem is when they do it in public.

basilico:


A lot of conservatives including married get unplanned pregnancies and seek abortions.
Abortion ban if put to secret ballot would never pass anywhere including the Vatican I guess.

Yeah I know that. It's a complicated stuff

basilico:


I've never seen such lunacy. Because you don't agree and it's all over the news about FEMA diverting funds, Mods should ban you. I had posted this image below a few days ago.

Bemeruca. Never reveal your details here. This lunatic if he got hold of your address is the type that can call FBI and claim you are an ISIS terrorist or something like that . Or call your employer with a fake story just to have you fired.
Obrigardo though mentally incompetent would never do that. Resident idiot is capable of that.

Don't worry about my details, it is crazy to follow. You end up nowhere.

wirinet:

As a liberal, I don't believe in and certainly won't advocate for LGBTQ. Having said that, I believe sex is a private affair and what two consenting adults do in the privacy of the bedroom is non of my business. My problem is when they do it in public.

Exactly, after saying this can you agree to Xavier5 calling himself a liberal?

wirinet:


The video below is from Kano, a highly Conservative state, where abortion obviously is illegal. The streets are littered with young boys and girls begging for food

https://youtube.com/shorts/_nEG-66dJZY?si=jklOe5ivbFHgX6pT

To me this is far more dehumanising than abortion.

Still does not negate the dehumanizing of the fetus, which you admit with your definition of a human life, as being a living human.

The government and the society does not have the right to decide what people do with their lives and bodies, that I heavily champion. But the government has the right to preserve human life. And a fetus is a human life.

If a fetus is a human life, my morality, altruism, and values of human rights and equality makes be pro-life. It makes me unable to discriminate against a powerless, innocent, voiceless human life simply because it's in the womb. Equality and human rights applies to all human life irrespective of gender, race, intelligence, viability, socio-economic status, and stage of development.

All human life, including a fetus, deserve to be loved and cared for. I can never dehumanize a fetus simply because it can not speak or fight for itself, if I do so, how does that make me different from the Nazis, racists, sexists, slave owners, jihadist, the twin killers in ancient Calabar etc?

Talking about my pro-life. I'm against extreme pro-life, but rather I stand for common sense or rational pro-life. That's why I advocate for;

* The respect, care and protection of all human life... fetus inclusive.
* The creation of systems (which I personally refer to as Abortion Mitigating System aka AMS) that ensure the woman isn't forced to be mother against her will while simultaneously ensuring the protection of the life of the unborn babies, the care or welfare of children, the protection of the life of women, and the tackling of the menance of unwanted pregnancies.
* The allowance of temporal pro-choice until the above system is effectively established.

Yes, establishing the mentioned system is going to be physically, mentally, emotionally and financially straining, but hey, a human life is worth those strains. And as a person, I've decided that I'm not just going to be a sit and watch pro-life but an action one. I have plans to establish an organization that would be heavily committed to establishing the above systems via;

* Funding child support and orphanages
* Ensuring good and accessible healthcare for women and children
* Subsidizing birth controls to make them affordable, available and accessible.
* Spreading the message of celibacy and protected sex with the aim of establishing such culture.
* Allowing Abortion in the CRITICAL CASES which are pre-adolescent pregnancies, severe deformity of the fetus, and medically or surgically unremedied life threatening pregnancies. Critical cases majorly deal with the woman's life.

If the above is effectively done;

1.) Women won't be forced to be mothers against their will thanks to well funded orphanages.
2.) The life of the unborn babies will be protected thanks to well funded child support and orphanages.
3.) Children will be taken care of thanks to well funded child support and orphanage, likewise good and accessible healthcare
4.) The life of women will be protected thanks to good and accessible healthcare, and the allowance of abortion in the critical cases (which majorly deals with the woman's life)
5.) Unwanted pregnancies will be tackled (higher chance) thanks to subsidized, accessible, affordable and available birth controls, likewise a pro celibacy and protected sex culture.

It's going to take lots of time and a whole lot of work and resources, but I believe it can and will be possible, and I also believe that with such efforts, governments, individuals, and organizations will jump on board with time. If things are effectively done, I see abortion not being an issue in the future.

That's Xavier's pro-life view, and I'm proud to hold such view. I don't see a reason why anyone with a conscience will have issues with that. So rather than push for abortion, why don't we create such systems... while allowing temporal pro-choice until the systems are effectively in place?



#Xavier

raumdeuter:
I wrote a long post on liberals who oppose abortion and conservatives who support abortion but spaaambo00t wont let me post it

wirinet, budaatum, Xavier5

Is the person below Conservative or liberal?

I doubt you understand how this works. Do you know that a person can be against aborting for themselves but support the fact that others may want the choice?

Biden, being a Catholic, is not likely to want to abort, but he understands that others may want to, so chooses pro-choice Kamala as his VP.

Being able to allow others to chose for themselves to abort or not just as you have chosen not to, is liberal.

bemeruca:


i am not talking about rape. most women who are doing abortions are not doing it because of rape. So that is an exception.

You are not talking about rape because you say it is rare, and "most women who are doing abortions are not doing it because of rape", but you want to talk about abortions up to birth, despite that being very rare and what hardly any woman would do?

Hope you see why I call you an si?

bemeruca:

can you have sex with a woman if she does not agree to it?

You obviously can "have sex with a woman if she does not agree", just as your pussy grabbing idol does grabs pussy without consent, but then we have agreed that you don't know what consent means, so no surprise there.

kkins25:

Yes, that would make you fascist. After all, my brain, my choice!

Thanks for recognising that it would indeed be fascist of me to insist 'your brain my choice'.

kkins25:
Republicans are taking a huge heat due to Trump's stup.i.dity. But, the team has something the Demos currently lack--- "blind unity." Biden must be crying himself to sleep. hahahahaha.

Republicans are taking a huge heat due to their loyalty to Trump's stup.i.dity, which I'm glad Biden does not have.

And to be honest, the only reason you'd think "Biden must be crying himself to sleep" because he doesn't have "blind unity" is because you think he must be and reason like dump who was crying and couldn't sleep after he lost an election, when the truth is, Biden did something very admirable indeed, to the point he shot up in my ranking of humans when he stepped down.

Values, as I say to Xavier5, are very subjective indeed.

kkins25:
Maga, I think, is a one-time sensation that will die when Trump loses steam.

Anyone left for a Tea Party, lol.

Xavier5:


Thank God you talked about liberty and equality, which are fundamental liberal values. But the question is, what are the value of equality and liberty based on? If human life does not intrinsically has value irrespective of race, gender, intelligence, viability or stage of development, then what's the significance of the whole idea of liberty and equality?

[b]And talking again about human value, you didn't read my post, otherwise you wouldn't have brought up Elon Musk. Because I clearly explained what I meant by human value, which is the belief that all human life have value irrespective of race, gender, intelligence, socio-economic status, viability and stage of development, but because they're humans. And I went further to explain why, which is where the statement of universal intrinsic knowing of the value of a human life came in, which ironically you dismissed as being insignificant to the discuss, which to me is funny as hell 😁.




So when Jews were being slaughtered because Nazi Germany sanctioned it, it wasn't murder or genocide right? Funny how we redefine words to suit our narratives.

The real question is if there was some universally known intrinsic human value why would the Nazis have killed so many Jews. Because there isn't is why. All value is subjective. And to answer your particular question, the Nazis didn't see it as murder, the Allies did, once again showing that it is a legal matter that expresses the subjectivity.

Is capital punishment murder? Is killing of enemy combatants in battle murder? Is killing in self defense murder? In killing someone accidentally murder? The answer to all these questions is NO because murder has a narrow definition that does not encompass all forms of killing.

You see why I said you should ask questions, rather than making conclusions. Do you know what the critical cases are, and why I made them exemptions?

What conclusion did I make?

On what basis are you saying a fetus isn't a human life and hence has not the right to live except some superior power say so? So in your view, certain lives are superior to others, and these superior lives has the right to eliminate the inferior life if it helps their cause?

Point out where I said the fetus isn't a human life and hence has not the right to live except some superior power say so.

The fetus does not have the right to use the resources and body of another human without permission. Nobody has that right.

Nope in my view I subjectively value some humans over others, just like you value your mother's life over mine. And when it comes to choosing you will choose according to your subjective value.

Also point out where I used the words superior and inferior.

And I come back to the core of the issue, if all human life has value irrespective of gender, race, intelligence, viability, socio-economic status, or stage of development, but because they are human life, and if a fetus is a human life, doesn't that fetus has the right to live? Which now brings us to the question, is a fetus a human life? What makes an organism human? And does the fetus meet that requirements? These are the questions we should be asking.

If truly the fetus is a human life, then what should we do? Jump on the boat of abortion or pro choice? Or the government and society should create systems that ensure, one, the woman doesn't have to be a mother if she doesn't want to; two, the menance of unwanted pregnancy is being tackled, and three, the babies life is being preserved? Why do we think we can't create such system where all three issues are being addressed?

And guess what, the latter is the part I take, I strongly believe we should create such systems, rather than just jump on the boat of abortion or pro choice. What systems, am I talking about? Very simple, ask me and i will explain.

Look, I'm enormously pro right to one's body, but when a human life is being hurt, then I strongly believe that we have to take a step backward, and evaluate things.

And so you know, the critical cases I mentioned are based on life... life of the woman, and not bodily liberty. But as I said, ask questions on what I mean by critical cases, and not make assumptions.

Like I already said the fetus has no right to use the woman's body without consent. It's her life the fetus has to depend on, it literally has to live off of her blood. Do you think somebody should have the right to just come take your blood without your consent?

And my response to these is, I question the liberalism that negate or sideline human value all in the name of bodily liberty. So much for human rights and equality 🙄

As I've said, and will continue to say, if truly the fetus is a human life, what should we do, jump on the boat of pro abortion or pro choice? Or the government and society should create systems, systems that ensures;

* The woman doesn't have to be a mother if she doesn't want to.
* The menance of unwanted pregnancy is being tackled.
* The babies life is being preserved.

Why do we think we can't create such systems? What systems am I talking about? As I initially said, ask questions, and I will explain.

As for the complexities of abortion, I'm open to discussing on them, if you ask.


#Xavier

If you can find a way to preserve a fetus that is between 0-5 months old outside of the woman's body that would be great. Till then the owner of the body should have the right to agree or disagree with growing something inside her.

wirinet:

As a liberal, I don't believe in and certainly won't advocate for LGBTQ. Having said that, I believe sex is a private affair and what two consenting adults do in the privacy of the bedroom is non of my business. My problem is when they do it in public.

Same case. A woman cannot get a third trimester abortion within her state so poor thing has to travel out of state to obtain her reproductive rights abortion
To prevent that every state must allow abortion at whatever trimester.

LordReed:


The real question is if there was some universally known intrinsic human value why would the Nazis have killed so many Jews. Because there isn't is why. All value is subjective. And to answer your particular question, the Nazis didn't see it as murder, the Allies did, once again showing that it is a legal matter that expresses the subjectivity.

Is capital punishment murder? Is killing of enemy combatants in battle murder? Is killing in self defense murder? In killing someone accidentally murder? The answer to all these questions is NO because murder has a narrow definition that does not encompass all forms of killing.



What conclusion did I make?





Point out where I said the fetus isn't a human life and hence has not the right to live except some superior power say so.

The fetus does not have the right to use the resources and body of another human without permission. Nobody has that right.

Nope in my view I subjectively value some humans over others, just like you value your mother's life over mine. And when it comes to choosing you will choose according to your subjective value.

Also point out where I used the words superior and inferior.



Like I already said the fetus has no right to use the woman's body without consent. It's her life the fetus has to depend on, it literally has to live off of her blood. Do you think somebody should have the right to just come take your blood without your consent?






If you can find a way to preserve a fetus that is between 0-5 months old outside of the woman's body that would be great. Till then the owner of the body should have the right to agree or disagree with growing something inside her.

Dehumanizing a foetus. If not for abortion maybe someone would have obtained a Cancer Abortion should not be about feelings, I hate that " thing" so I need my medical insurance to pay for my hospital bill to get rid of it.

basilico:


Same case. A woman cannot get a third trimester abortion within her state so poor thing has to travel out of state to obtain her reproductive rights abortion
To prevent that every state must allow abortion at whatever trimester.

Doctor says your wife will die if she does not terminate her third trimester non-viable pregnancy. What would you do?

Reasons for late terminations of pregnancy include when a pregnant woman's health is at risk or when lethal fetal abnormalities have been detected.[7][8]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy

basilico:


Dehumanizing a foetus. If not for abortion maybe someone would have obtained a Cancer Abortion should not be about feelings, I hate that " thing" so I need my medical insurance to pay for my hospital bill to get rid of it.

Point out where I dehumanized a fetus.