johnw74:


Stop puffing yourself up, you know I have nothing to discuss with non believers,
you don't believe the scriptures I posted showing Jesus is to be worshipped.

johnw74:


Discussing scripture with jw who change what the scriptures say, would be for me, like discussing scriptures with the devil.

johnw74:
Not only do scriptures say that Jesus Christ is to be worshiped, which jw does not believe, and try and belittle Jesus saying such things as:

(1) does Jesus have a God?
(2) was Jesus sent ?
(3) who sent Jesus ?
(4) who do you think is superior , Jesus or the one who sent him .
(5) is Jesus the father?
(6) if you think Jesus is not the father, who do you think deserves our worship , Jesus , the father or both ?
(7 ) is Christ under subjection to anybody ?
(cool if you are in subjection to another, is that person not superior to you ?

In their warped thinking they think these questions show that Jesus Christ is not to be worshiped.

Even without any scriptures saying so, Christians know that Jesus Christ-God is to be worshiped


Jesus Christ is God and God is to be worshiped:

John said "the Word was God": Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Timothy said "Jesus is God": 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus shows "He is God" along with the Father: Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Lord in that verse is "kurios" meaning God, "God our God is one God", God is one God, the Father and I are one

Thomas called Jesus "God": John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

David called Jesus Christ "God": Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Isaiah said "God is with us": Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Immanuel means: "with us is God".

Matthew said "God is with us": Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus Christ is "equal to God", that is:- the Word was with God, the Word was God:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Titus called our saviour Jesus Christ, "the Great God": Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Father God calls Jesus Christ "God" Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of

John shows "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit to be God": 1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Mar_12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Jesus Christ-God certainly is worshiped by believers-Christians, and of course
He is not worshiped by antichrists, unbelievers, sects, false religion.

dolphinheart:
All should consider this questions

(1) does jesus have a God?

(2) was jesus sent ?

(3) who sent jesus ?

(4) who do you think is superior , jesus or the one who sent him .

(5) is jesus the father?

(6) if you think jesus is not the father, who do you think deserves our worship , jesus , the father or both ?

(7 ) is Christ under subjection to anybody ?
( if you are in subjection to another, is that person not superior to you ?

paulGrundy:


Jehovahs witnesses claim that worship of Jesus is idolatry!

"Trinitarians who believe that Jesus is God, or at least the second person of the triune God, do not like to have Jehovah's witnesses say that it is unscriptural for worshipers of the living and true God to render worship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ" Watchtower 1964 Nov 1 p.671

"Reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry, which is condemned in both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. Accordingly, true Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty." Awake! 2000 Apr 8 pp.26,27

Emusan:


One mistake that people who raised questions like these are making is the INABILITY to distinguish between when The Word of God entered the creation and was given the name Jesus and His preexisting life from eternity.



When He took on flesh(became part of creations) the Father will automatically be His God as the Father is God for every creations.



Yes to earth by His Father.



His Father!



The Father is superior IN AUTHORITY/POSITION than Him.



He is not the PERSON of the Father but He is an EVERLASTING FATHER Isaiah 9:6 [s]which placed Him in Equality with the Father.[/s]

In fact this is one of the verses that spelled out the Deity of Jesus.



The worship giving to Jesus is also for the Father no difference because "That ALL (including JWs) may HONOR THE SON, [size=14pt]EVEN AS[/size] they (including JWs) HONOR the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth the Father which hath sent him" John 5:23

Let me ask you this maybe you can answer it since JWs I've asked always dance around and swept over it, do you honour the Father through your worship or In what way do you honour the Father? Remember Jesus said [size=14pt]"...EVEN AS/JUST AS..."[/size]
*Note: Don't ridicule your post by now giving me the definition of the word 'Honour' from dictionary.



Then do the Trinitarian ever claim that Jesus is superior than His Father?

It's better you get a Trinity book and read for your own benefit and leave everything Watchtower had told you about Trinity because it never presents Trinity the way Trinitarian teaches.

johnw74:
Not only do scriptures say that Jesus Christ is to be worshiped, which jw does not believe, and try and belittle Jesus saying such things as:

(1) does Jesus have a God?
(2) was Jesus sent ?
(3) who sent Jesus ?
(4) who do you think is superior , Jesus or the one who sent him .
(5) is Jesus the father?
(6) if you think Jesus is not the father, who do you think deserves our worship , Jesus , the father or both ?
(7 ) is Christ under subjection to anybody ?
(cool if you are in subjection to another, is that person not superior to you ?

In their warped thinking they think these questions show that Jesus Christ is not to be worshiped.

Even without any scriptures saying so, Christians know that Jesus Christ-God is to be worshiped


Jesus Christ is God and God is to be worshiped:

John said "the Word was God": Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Timothy said "Jesus is God": 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus shows "He is God" along with the Father: Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Lord in that verse is "kurios" meaning God, "God our God is one God", God is one God, the Father and I are one

Thomas called Jesus "God": John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

David called Jesus Christ "God": Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Isaiah said "God is with us": Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Immanuel means: "with us is God".

Matthew said "God is with us": Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus Christ is "equal to God", that is:- the Word was with God, the Word was God:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Titus called our saviour Jesus Christ, "the Great God": Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Father God calls Jesus Christ "God" Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of

John shows "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit to be God": 1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Mar_12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Jesus Christ-God certainly is worshiped by believers-Christians, and of course
He is not worshiped by antichrists, unbelievers, sects, false religion.

JMANO5:

If u are so sure of ur stand, let's discuss this with open mind. I assure u, u are going to meet a surprise.

dolphinheart:

For the benefit of others who seek the truth, can you provide answers to the question if you know it?

One who is assured of the truth Ib his words will be ready to discuss his beliefs always. You believe in something, then let's discuss it here, no fighting, no abusive speech, so that I, you and others on these thread will get a better understanding of the truth.

If its ok by you , can we start with 1 Timothy 3:16 ? One of the bible verses you quoted.

johnw74:

Stop puffing yourself up, you know I have nothing to discuss with non believers,


Discussing scripture with jw who change what the scriptures say, would be for me, like discussing scriptures with the devil.

Maamin:


"THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" - Jesus Christ A.D 33

Maamin:

9:6 [s]which placed Him in Equality with the Father.[/s]

johnw74:



Yet Jesus Christ considered Himself equal with the Father, because along with the Father He is God.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The scriptures are true, believe them,
if you use scripture against scripture, (strike out one and believe the other) it's because you don't know or understand the scriptures.

johnw74:


jw wouldn't know the diffrence between a letter box and an Elephant's behind

don't send them to post your letters.

johnw74:

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Maamin:
"THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" - Jesus Christ A.D 33

Emusan:


One mistake that people who raised questions like these are making is the INABILITY to distinguish between when The Word of God entered the creation and was given the name Jesus and His preexisting life from eternity.



When He took on flesh(became part of creations) the Father will automatically be His God as the Father is God for every creations.



Yes to earth by His Father.



His Father!



The Father is superior IN AUTHORITY/POSITION than Him.



He is not the PERSON of the Father but He is an EVERLASTING FATHER Isaiah 9:6 which placed Him in Equality with the Father.

In fact this is one of the verses that spelled out the Deity of Jesus.



The worship giving to Jesus is also for the Father no difference because "That ALL (including JWs) may HONOR THE SON, [size=14pt]EVEN AS[/size] they (including JWs) HONOR the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth the Father which hath sent him" John 5:23

Let me ask you this maybe you can answer it since JWs I've asked always dance around and swept over it, do you honour the Father through your worship or In what way do you honour the Father? Remember Jesus said [size=14pt]"...EVEN AS/JUST AS..."[/size]
*Note: Don't ridicule your post by now giving me the definition of the word 'Honour' from dictionary.



Then do the Trinitarian ever claim that Jesus is superior than His Father?

It's better you get a Trinity book and read for your own benefit and leave everything Watchtower had told you about Trinity because it never presents Trinity the way Trinitarian teaches.

Maamin:


i understand the scripture perfectly well

...we are also in the form of God i.e (image of God), does that makes us equal with God also? NO!

yet the scripture can not be broken, is high time we quit making the scripture interpret our own desire.

lexiconkabir:
That verse wasnt talking about jesus(being this son), the firstbegotten here means the first person to be created and was put unto the earth! and who is that? Adam! God ordered all the angels to bow down(worship to you) for Adam. now according to the quran, satan refused to bow down for Adam, because Adam was made from dust and he(satan) was made from the flame of fire viz satan was arrogant(the bible never talked on how satan disobeyed God), this was why satan was accursed(thats BTW). Lets remember that Adam was also called son of God in the bible(see luke3:38). if you look at heb1:9(NIV) God is refering to this "son" saying "therefore God, YOUR God, has set you above your companions..." if you believe this verse is talking about jesus your "GOD", will God refer to him(jesus) as being his(jesus) God? let me see your view about this.

johnw74:


Yet you don't believe them, you jw aren't u

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Scripture doesn't say we are equal with God, but scripture does say that Jesus Christ thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
and equal is the correct word there

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father,
making himself equal with God.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Jozzy4:


He is not a JW , your thinking faculty has been conditioned to view everyone that disagree with you as Jw , you need h.elp .

That mean we are also equal with God , Philipian 2:5 said we sud keep that same mind thats in Christ Jesus



The jews are wrong . Use your thinking faculty , " the Father Is GREATER than I" Joh 14:28

Thank God, he didnt say I and my Father are ONE GOD.

dolphinheart:
New Living Translation
As Peter entered his home,
Cornelius fell at his feet and
worshiped him.
- acts 10:25.

Is peter God? If no , why is he worshiped?.

dolphinheart:

Do you have any bible verse(s) to support [size=14pt]ur views[/size] expecially the "word of God entered the creation"? note key word we are looking for *"enter creation" *

Do you have any verse(s) that supports the statements: (a)"took on flesh"
(b)became part of creation?
*note the key words we need from the scriptures :"took on flesh" and " became part of creation.
Words not used in the right format or probably deliberately twisted can give one a different understanding . The different translations I read on john 1:14 says " the word became flesh " and " word was made flesh "!. * note key word : "became"!

Now you say jesus had a God when he took on flesh , to me this implies that he did not have a God [size=14pt]before coming to earth(correct me if I'm wrong).[/size] Now did he still have that God or did not have that God when he went [size=14pt]back to heaven[/size] after his ressurrection ?

My remarks:
I agree with you, jesus was sent by the one true God.

You said:
His Father!

My remarks :
Ur statement shows that jesus and the father are not equal in authority and position , the father is superior to jesus

My remarks:
You earlier stated that the father is superior to jesus , that they are different persons, now you state they are equal?.
How can they be equal when one is superior to the other?

Isaiah 9:6 said :"he will be called....... evalasting father". This denotes that at a particular time he was not called "evalasting father".

Are you saying that when we worship jesus, we also worship the father? Or we worship both at the same time

Thank God john 5:23 did not say " everyone will worship the son just as they worship the father".

I will show you my understanding of the verse by quoting it and also adding more info in bracket.

( your deity, jesus, said he only does what he sees the father doing, he does not do anything of his own initiative, yet some say the father and son are equal, how can they be equal when the son does not take any action unless the father tells him to?).

Whatever the Father does, the Son also does( can you see superiority here too, no verse in the bible ever says "whatever the son does, the father also does".

20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing( the father teaches the son ). In fact, the Father will show him how to do even greater works than healing this man( the father will still teach the son how to do greater things in the future). Then you will truly be astonished. 21 For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead, so the Son gives life to anyone
[size=14pt]he wants.[/size] ( the father has giving the son the ability and taught him how to raise the dead) 22 In addition, the Father judges no one.

Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge, (the father gave the son the authority, at a Particular time jesus never had the authority ) 23 ( since the father has giving this authority to the son , what happens next) so that( the word "so" links verse 23 to verse 22 ) everyone will honor the Son, [size=14pt]just as[/size] they honor the Father.

Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

If a king sends a messenger on an errand with his seal or sign of authority, that messenger is honored like you'll honor the king . Jesus said all will honor the son like they honor the father cus of [size=14pt]the authority the father gave him.[/size] He definitely did not mean worship the son like they worship the father.

Children honor/value there parents
Servants honor/value there masters
Jesus honors/values God
God honors/values jesus
Servants of God honors/values God
God honors/values his loyal servants

Since it was God who highly exalted his Son, all who refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the immortal King of kings and Lord of lords dishonor the Father. Because of who he is and what he has accomplished, the Son deserves honor and loyal support.
All who desire to be honored by the Son as his approved disciples must imitate his example and faithfully adhere to his teaching.— Romans 2:7, 10.

I value the father cus he is my creator, I value the son cus of what he has done for me.

My remarks :
Sir , you have not answered question 7 .

johnw74:


@ red, Hebrews 1:6 is talking of Jesus Christ, that is clear. Adam was not begotten of God, God made him from the dust of the ground.

Jesus Christ being begotten means He is from God, part of God. He is the only begotten of God.
the Father and the Son is God

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

lexiconkabir:
you are yet to show me how that verse refers to jesus, some translation uses firstborn, please who was the firstborn on earth and pls address heb1:9. where that son was told "therefore God, your God has placed you above your companions ...."

Emusan:


And if you now add verse 10 that applied creation to the Son.

Was it Adam that created everything?

I know you're a Muslim trying to bring Islam understanding into Christian.

johnw74

Duh, that's what the verse means

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word Jesus is God, ⁽¹⁾ Father is God, ⁽²⁾

I and my Father are one

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

[s] 1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost is one, one what? one Spirit, one God

Jw cannot possibly understand it, oh that's right you are not jw,

It's understandable that I keep forgetting that.

[/s]

lexiconkabir:
read from 8 and you will see that it was that son talking to God. and God is truely the creator of all things.

Emusan:


Stop bringing Islamic theology into what doesn't concern you.

Verse 8 reads: "But to the Son He (The Father) says..."

Bible isn't like Qur'an where the speaker switched from First Pronoun to second pronoun or from third to another.

Emusan:
Next time make your post well arrange by using quotation tag (instead of typing You said or I said or my remark) if not I won't reply you.

Attacking strawman, @bold how can view/understanding of verse be found in the scripture? When you yourself did the same below.

The two @bold show you never grasp the point; but let me help you.
Jesus came to earth NOT WITH HIS FLESH but He went to heaven with His Flesh.

So He was not sent by His Father, right?



But no comment, since the Father is different from the one who sent Him according to you by changing The Father to the ONE TRUE GOD in above.

You read me well.



President Muhammad Buhari is superior than Me (It means PMB is superior than me in Authority and Position)
President Muhammad Buhari is equal to Me (It means as a Nigeria Citizen we are equal)
Let your reasoning faculty do the rest

Now that He's CALLED Everlasting Father, how many EVERLASTING FATHER DO YOU HAVE?

I believe you read and understood my post.



The question is, do you honour God THROUGH YOUR WORSHIP?



Can you provide scripture for your understanding here as you said of me earlier?



Do you know the meaning of SUPERIORITY?



In fact your scriptural perversion is alarming. NOTE here, Whatever the Father does, THE SON ALSO DOES! What does that mean to you? Beside, Did I say there's no SUPERIORITY?

The @bold is the key here, which means Jesus can also carry out HIS OWN WILL without conflicting Father's will. Which brought the whole previous verses into ONE. As even though Jesus can INITIATE His OWN WILL He still Allow the Father to lead.
I know you didn't see this.

We will see how perverted you are with this your understanding.

Now that He has the Authority. Has Jehovah take back the Authority? If NO! How many people do you have HAVING ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY? If YES! Kindly explain.[/quote
]

No , jehovah has not taking back the authority . Bro, the authority giving to jesus is not absolute!. The scriptures never said absolute authority . The scriptures explains that despite jesus being giving authority , he is still subject to the father who gave him the authority. So in no way was jesus ever equal to the father in authority at any point in time



[quote]Imaging after in your own illustration when the messenger will be honored LIKE YOU'LL honor the King later change to not mean worshiping the Son like they worship the Father which we can then ask, how will people would've honored the King if the King that was actually seen by the people in place of that messenger?

I believe you don't understand your own illustration and this is where JWs always miss it.

The meaning of your illustration is very simple, the SEAL and the AUTHORITY can be interpreted If I (the King) be the one who APPEARS in your PRESENCE or come to you, how will you have treated me? In other word it means if it is Jehovah who actually came to earth with is OWN SEAL and Authority WILL YOU WORSHIP HIM or NOT?

Illustration upon illustration without knowing how it refutes your own claim.
Is it the same way the loyal servants honor God that God will honor them back? But Jesus said "...EVEN AS/JUST AS..." which means IN ANYWAY YOU HONOR THE FATHER HONOR ME IN LIKE MANNER.

As for me and the rest of TRUE BELIEVERS all over the world, we honor the Father through our worship, praise, prayers. I don't know about JWs but I know because you knew the gravity of this verse over your believe you decided to limit your HONOR to Jehovah ONLY for being the CREATOR.



Was it because The Father is also immortal King of kings and the Lord of lord that made them dishonor Him? Since the statement was "...EVEN AS/JUST AS they honor the Father."



You've given that beautiful verse two different meaning now because of your twisted tongue @bold, do you mean what Jesus did for you it's not Jehovah who did it?

Then you must value The Son as the creator too because "...EVEN AS/JUST AS you value (if we replace honor with value just for your own taste) the Father" that's what the verse says.

your question is YES, is that ok?

But my question has been danced around and u swept over as usual.

lexiconkabir:
you are yet to show me how that verse refers to jesus, some translation uses firstborn, please who was the firstborn on earth and pls address heb1:9. where that son was told "therefore God, your God has placed you above your companions ...."

Jozzy4:


Nope ! That will contradict 1 cor 8:6 for us there is one God , THE FATHER . ONLY THE FATHER .



But we are also one in the same sense ! John 17:22 , Does it mean we are Almighty God and a part of trinity too?

Check the numbers ! Just admit you serve TWO Gods .

Thats why God prayed to the other God the Father . And when God 1 died , the other God didnt die .




We are also one In The same sense (john 17:22)



Since It was God that was manifested in the FLESH , do you now admit Mary is the mother of God ?



Spurious Text .