Patchesagain:

Africa has nothing to do with it
Itwould simply be our success

It is completely irrelevant arguing over what doesn't exist. I'm not interested.

Henry240:


It is completely irrelevant arguing over what doesn't exist. I'm not interested.

Nigeria is

Henry240:


Everything can be debated.


However, MI-17terminator and MI-35M are both from the same contract.

The MI-35M is a Heavy dedicated attack helicopter, terms are only going to confuse you.

Air Force = MIL

Army = EADS


What isn't standardised in the fleet?


Now...... You've gone pretty much off topic.

Mi-35M is not the class of the Apache, Mi-28 and the Rooivalk.

How many helicopters types does the Nigerian military fly?

africaken:
do you know how many forward operating bases we have in somalia .also a vulnerable border where alshabaab sneak in to ambush both military and police,plant IED and attack police stations and everyone want close air support and you still need to carry ISR tasks.this also is hundreds kilometers from where you carry out air craft overhaul

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2phuxU6xYnA

Again read about the fire force in the link I shared.

QRF is a capability most African armed forces still have to build.

- Ground and air.

africaken:
for a peace time army like south africa army may be,but not countries like kenya and nigeria dealing with insurgents

The SA army currently doesn't operate like a peacetime army with multiple deployments.

Patchesagain:


Wtf are you talking about?

It said "narrow miss" - so how do we know a soft skinned vehicle would survive?

Also, targeting was done by a Grip - how do we know Rooikvalk would miss if it targeted?


Dude, your argument is ludicrous!!

Marketing propaganda to save face in front of foreign potential customers....narrowly by how many metres? How many metres off target?

ATGM can only kill a tank by directly hitting target.

If the distance is off target by a number of meters, even a soft skin Toyota will escape alive because Mokopa warhead is small, and missing target does not mean it hit the ground beside the target, it can just glide closely beside it and pass by to keep flying aimlessly till missile fuel finishes.

Who will use expensive Mokopa to kill terrorists rag tag old model second hand used Toyota soft skin that costs $5,000 ? The missile probably costs 10 times more than the target. What kind of battlefield tactics is that? Who can afford the financial costs?

None of those potential customers who watched the marketing demo will come back for any reason. They saw combat failure of the Rooivalk, they saw the exact opposite of Denel marketing claims, they saw a $40 million Rooivalk fail to hit a well known and already revealed target with an expensive guided missile that was used even not up to it's claimed range.

Okay, you now say Gripen has poor laser designation capabilities. I see. I agree with you, Gripen is a $60 million jet that CANNOT designate target with the acclaimed and advertised Link ZA superb tactical datalinks that we are told has made Gripen and Rooivalk capable of exchanging target information 'effectively' and the LITENING advanced laser targeting pod, and the 'advanced' Rooivalk cockpits targeting systems, upgraded, state-of-the-art, and the high performance long range many years tested, market ready Mokopa guided missile, and the $40 million Rooivalk allegedly praised for 'super performance' by the UN in Congo DRC, is now missing target, clearly marked, designated, pre-confirmed, Denel planted and location disclosed target that the Rooivalk did not even have to look for....and still fired and MISSED AN EASY TARGET !!!!

African air forces should just do what africaken has said, use $40 million to buy 10 units of Gazelle or Fennec type of scout attack helicopters at $4 million each and go kill Al, Shabab, Boko Haram, Ansar Dine with guarantee of hitting target, cheap air to ground munitions are in the world market.

MikeCZAR:
The SA army currently doesn't operate like a peacetime army with multiple deployments.

those peace keeping missions is whats making your blood boil

africaken:
those peace keeping missions is whats making your blood boil

what will be different with combat missions?

sharper teeth and a healthy tail?

MikeCZAR:
Again read about the fire force in the link I shared.

QRF is a capability most African armed forces still have to build.

- Ground and air.

stop comparing your bush wars with what we are facing ,even if you come up with all sort of terminology

MikeCZAR:
what will be different with combat missions?

sharper teeth and a healthy tail?

are you going to tell us again your M23 story!

agaugust:


Marketing propaganda to save face in front of foreign potential customers....narrowly by how many metres? How many metres off target?

ATGM HEAT can only kill a tank by directly hitting target.

If the distance is off target by a number of meters, even a soft skin Toyota will escape alive because Mokopa warhead is small, and missing target does not mean it hit the ground beside the target, it can just glide closely beside it and pass by to keep flying aimlessly till missile fuel finishes.

Who will use expensive Mokopa to kill terrorists rag tag old model second hand used Toyota soft skin that costs $5,000 ? The missile probably costs 10 times more than the target. What kind of battlefield tactics is that? Who can afford the financial costs?

Okay, you know say Gripen has poor laser designation capabilities. I see. I agree with you, Gripen is a $60 million jet that CANNOT designate target with the acclaimed and advertised Link ZA superb tactical datalinks that we are told has made Gripen and Rooivalk capable of exchanging target information 'effectively' and the LITENING advanced laser targeting pod, and the 'advanced' Rooivalk cockpits targeting systems, upgraded, state-of-the-art, and the high performance long range many years tested, market ready Mokopa guided missile, and the $40 million Rooivalk allegedly praised for 'super performance' by the UN in Congo DRC, is now missing target, clearly marked, designated, pre-confirmed, Denel planted and location disclosed target that the Rooivalk did not even have to look for....and still that easy MISSED TARGET !!!!

African air forces should just do what africaken has said, use $40 million to buy 10 units of Gazelle or Fennec type of scout attack helicopters at $4 million each and go kill Al, Shabab, Boko Haram, Ansar Dine with guarantee of hitting target, cheap missiles are in the Chinese market.

You are now just arguing for the sake if it, clearly Nigerian interest in the Rooivalk has embarrassed you after so many years of you criticising it

1. The report said narrowly, that is all we know.
1a. You go stand on the back of a pickup and let me set off a missile next to you

2.Endless money forms the sinews of war - Cicero

3. Where did a say Gripes was bad? It marked the target, passed info onto Rooivalk and it narrowly missed the target at a range the hellfire cannot even reach. How many attack helicopters can do that?


4. MONUSCO commanders praise for the Rooivalk is not "alleged"

Lol, you are really saying you would rather have light attack helicopters?

It's obvious bias and embarrassment has tainted your thinking - you are criticism the rooivalk for doing something almost no other attack helps can do

agaugust:


Marketing propaganda to save face in front of foreign potential customers....narrowly by how many metres? How many metres off target?

ATGM HEAT can only kill a tank by directly hitting target.

If the distance is off target by a number of meters, even a soft skin Toyota will escape alive because Mokopa warhead is small, and missing target does not mean it hit the ground beside the target, it can just glide closely beside it and pass by to keep flying aimlessly till missile fuel finishes.

Who will use expensive Mokopa to kill terrorists rag tag old model second hand used Toyota soft skin that costs $5,000 ? The missile probably costs 10 times more than the target. What kind of battlefield tactics is that? Who can afford the financial costs?

None of those potential customers who watched the marketing demo will come back for any reason. They say combat failure of the Rooivalk, they saw the exact opposite of Denel marketing claims, they saw a $40 million Rooivalk fail to hit a well known and already revealed target with an expensive guided missile that was used even not up to it's claimed range.

Okay, you know say Gripen has poor laser designation capabilities. I see. I agree with you, Gripen is a $60 million jet that CANNOT designate target with the acclaimed and advertised Link ZA superb tactical datalinks that we are told has made Gripen and Rooivalk capable of exchanging target information 'effectively' and the LITENING advanced laser targeting pod, and the 'advanced' Rooivalk cockpits targeting systems, upgraded, state-of-the-art, and the high performance long range many years tested, market ready Mokopa guided missile, and the $40 million Rooivalk allegedly praised for 'super performance' by the UN in Congo DRC, is now missing target, clearly marked, designated, pre-confirmed, Denel planted and location disclosed target that the Rooivalk did not even have to look for....and still that easy MISSED TARGET !!!!

African air forces should just do what africaken has said, use $40 million to buy 10 units of Gazelle or Fennec type of scout attack helicopters at $4 million each and go kill Al, Shabab, Boko Haram, Ansar Dine with guarantee of hitting target, cheap missiles are in the Chinese market.

Telemetry missile.

Used for test and evaluation. Post flight data like how close the missile missed the target or flight time are collected during the missile's flight. To measure missile's performance and flight characteristics in certain scenarios against tarhets.

Those tests were carried out in 2011 the Mokopa has even been bought by Algeria after that.

The Hellfire and many other missiles missed targets during tests.

Patchesagain:


Where did a say Gripen was bad? It marked the target, passed info onto Rooivalk and it narrowly missed the target

It's obvious bias and embarrassment has tainted your thinking - you are criticism the rooivalk for doing something almost no other attack helps can do

Yes, other attack helos don't miss an easy target....like the Rooivalk missed
.

agaugust:


Yes, other attack helos don't miss an easy target....like the Rooivalk missed
.

8km is easy?

List which attack helos can engage targets at 8km and above

Patchesagain:


Nigeria is

Show me where NAF source says Nigeria has interest in Rooivalk. Denel official is not an official spokesman for NAF....and Denel is known to tell lies in marketing desperation.

agaugust:


Show me where NAF source says Nigeria has interest in Rooivalk. Denel official is not a qualified spokesman for NAF.

They attended for fun?

Patchesagain:


8km is easy?

List which attack helos can engage targets at 8km and above

Actually the marketed range is 10 km, so why was Denel deceiving the world? I have always said the Mokopa was not ordered because it will not work long range effect, now I am proved right. Surely it will even miss target at 6 km.

agaugust:


Actually the marketed range is 10 km, so why was Denel deceiving the world? I have always said the Mokopa was not ordered because it will not work long range effect, now I am proved right. Surely it will even miss target at 6 km.

No, stop trying to slither away and change the argument

You said it missed an easy shot

So 8km is easy range then?

Plus list attack helicopters that can engage targets at that range

Ps: Mokopa has been ordered

MikeCZAR:


Mi-35M is not the class of the Apache, Mi-28 and the Rooivalk.

How many helicopters types does the Nigerian military fly?

I think what our friend africaken meant was African military needs to incorporate more armed scout helics to supplement heavy attack helics.

Patchesagain:


They attended for fun?

Yes, as it happens all over the world. Thousands of air forces officers around the world attend many aircraft demo shows and buy nothing.

A demonstration is not a purchase contract. Even the far cheaper T-129 ATAK we have attended demo show and not bought it. There is no Rooovalk talk from any NAF officer. Only Denel is saying it.

agaugust:


Yes, as it happens all over the world. Thousands of air forces officers around the world attend many aircraft demo shows and buy nothing.

A demonstration is not a purchase contract. Even the far cheaper T-129 ATAK we have attended demo show and not bought it. There is no Rooovalk talk from any NAF officer. Only Denel is saying it.

You say they attended for fun?

What evidence do you have to support this?

You have none. You simply say this because naf being interested in the Rooivalk proves that you have been wrong all these years.

Please, for the sake of this thread let us be factual

africaken:
are you going to tell us again your M23 story!

Because?

The performance of SA forces in battle has been noted by those operating within the intelligence departments of many African armed forces.

But in modern age the media beast must be fed is what they, that's why the army has been saying in future ops journalists will be embedded with forces on the ground. This is already happening during exercises. Exercise young eagle being an example.

This will go further to enhance better reporting and bolster the trust of the South African population in the armed forces.

Patchesagain:


No, stop trying to slither away and change the argument

You said it missed an easy shot

So 8km is easy range then?

Plus list attack helicopters that can engage targets at that range

Ps: Mokopa has been ordered

No evidence of any Mokopa order anywhere for SANDF.

Yes, 8 km is an easy target range for a guided missile, it is guided to an electronically marked, programmed, and connected/linked, and already known target.

Yes thats easy target....but visiting air force officers saw a real failure. Sure Denel is embarrased for telling lies in marketing.

Agaugust...u de waste energy on dz oponu fa

All these beef no go carry person go heaven oh
Country wey manufacture missile wey miss target better pass the one wey no get

agaugust:


No evidence of any Mokopa order anywhere for SANDF.

Yes, 8 km is an easy target range for a guided missile, it is guided to an electronically marked, programmed, and connected/linked, and already known target.

Yes thats easy target....but visiting air force officers saw a real failure. Sure Denel is embarrased for telling lies in marketing.

Algeria bought the Mokopa

I said list the attack helicopters that can engage at that range and above - stop trying to slither away

List. Them.

agaugust:


Actually the marketed range is 10 km, so why was Denel deceiving the world? I have always said the Mokopa was not ordered because it will not work long range effect, now I am proved right. Surely it will even miss target at 6 km.

1. Lack of knowledge. You wanna talk missile ranges?

2. The Algerians bought the missile and they have a better military than Nigeria. Your opinion is better than evaluations of Algerian men in uniform?

upko1:
All these beef no go carry person go heaven oh
Country wey manufacture missile wey miss target better pass the one wey no get

What you fail to realise is that we missed at target at a range that most attack helicopters cannot fire their missiles.

MikeCZAR:


1. Tests.

2. Not production missile.

3. The Hellfire and the Nag ATGMs did miss targets in tests.

Denel said DEMONSTRATION FOR INTERESTED BUYERS not test.

Tests had been done repeatedly before now. Stop lying, its a marketing show to alleged interested buyers not an internal Denel laboratory experimental test.

If the Mokopa had hit target, you wont come here and tell us it was a test. We are not kids or fools here, mister Mike.

agaugust:


Denel said DEMONSTRATION FOR INTERESTED BUYERS not test.

Tests had been done repeatedly before now. Stop lying, its a marketing show to alleged interested buyers not an internal Denel laboratory experimental test.

If the Mokopa had hit target, you wont come here and tell us it was a test. We are not kids or fools here, mister Mike.

Tell us which missiles can do the same

You criticise it yet you have nothing to compare it to!!

Patchesagain:


What you fail to realise is that we missed at target at a range that most attack helicopters cannot fire their missiles.

Other countries were not making false claims of a 10km air launched ATGM.

You were deceiving the world by claiming a long range that was beyond the capacity of South African technology for an ATGM. Learn your lesson, Denel should be honest next time.