patches689:


From what I have read, it is rated against 30mm all round and RPG's on the front glacis.

Thats all you really need against BH.

Yeah you're correct
But,
I've seen a 105mm howitzer mounted on a truck chasis used by bh for maybe direct fire role.
I'm not so sure the vickers can take three to four RPG hits like a boss on the side.

M14A1:

Well
Fire power doesn't equate armour, which is in relation to my post. Good gun great rounds, but it's armour is obsolete.
There is a reason Nigeria had 200+ of the vickers but opted for T72, to prosecute the war

Nigerian Vickers are the MK3 version. They are not old or obsolete, with the last set delivered to the Nigerian Army in the 90s. A good number of the later deliveries also had modern FCS.


What i agree with you is armour upgrade. Armour upgrade, NVGs and improved FCS across the fleet ( we've started with the ones shown in the video), we should extend the upgrade to the rest of the fleet.

best special task force video ever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg5JYo_PoiE

Henry240:


Nigerian Vickers are the MK3 version. They are not old or obsolete, with the last set delivered to the Nigerian Army in the 90s. A good number of the later deliveries also had modern FCS.


What i agree with you is armour upgrade. Armour upgrade, NVGs and improved FCS across the fleet ( we've started with the ones shown in the video), we should extend the upgrade to the rest of the fleet.

I clearly stated that the amour is obsolete, the odds would not play in Favour of it againt existing and emerging threats.
Upgrading should be a last resort, if not get more T72s and T90s, that should keep us above the water for some years to come.

patches689:
That moment when you get your VPN working and you can finally catch up on 2 months worth of defenceweb articles

Great Firewall of China aint got shit on me... I am an Internet Ghengis Khan!

Lmao

Nigerian Navy Logistics.


"What's the essence of buying Ships if you can't fuel them?", there cannot be an operation without logistics.


To this end, Oando group, Africa's largest privately owned oil & gas company has built Tank farms on the Nigerian naval dockyard. The company also built additional pipelines from their depots to the Naval dockyard.

M14A1:

I clearly stated that the amour is obsolete, the odds would not play in Favour of it againt existing and emerging threats.
Upgrading should be a last resort, if not get more T72s and T90s, that should keep us above the water for some years to come.

The Vickers armour isn't obsolete for it's current engagement. The priority would be to give the tank night fighting capabilities.


The current upgrade we are currently seeing is the most suitable trajectory, while a proper replacement is sought.

Henry240:


Nigerian Vickers are the MK3 version. They are not old or obsolete, with the last set delivered to the Nigerian Army in the 90s. A good number of the later deliveries also had modern FCS.


What i agree with you is armour upgrade. Armour upgrade, NVGs and improved FCS across the fleet ( we've started with the ones shown in the video), we should extend the upgrade to the rest of the fleet.

Vickers Nigeria got uses the Marconi EFCS 600.

Its quite an old FCS

Main problem is a lack of day/night scope for the Gunner... in low visibility the commander has to take over and aim the gun with his sights because he has Day/Night... which means he cant command properly.

Its real advantage is that it has HESH and Cannister rounds (yes, a 105mm shotgun) and some out there argue that the EFCS 600 is better than the FCS found in the T72B.

So its a trade off:

Eagle Tank:

- you have lots of them
- very versatile main gun
- FCS is about as good or better than most of your T-72's
- carries more on-board ammo than a T72

But:
- slow
- poorly armored

Remedying the flaws would the quite easy and relatively cheap.

Vickers is a great tank and I am sad that the Nigerian Generals are not letting it play with the other tanks

#ReleaseTheEagleTank

Henry240:


The Vickers armour isn't obsolete for it's current engagement. The priority would be to give the tank night fighting capabilities.


The current upgrade we are currently seeing is the most suitable trajectory, while a proper replacement is sought.

Ok
I guess you are still dwelling on the now. I like to see matters from the angle that they have escalated or would escalate regardless of current engagement.
That way I'm prepared.
Let's say the north east turns into a Gaza strip overnight, would you still support the current posture?

M14A1:

I clearly stated that the amour is obsolete, the odds would not play in Favour of it againt existing and emerging threats.
Upgrading should be a last resort, if not get more T72s and T90s, that should keep us above the water for some years to come.

Nigeria faces no enemies or potential enemies with capable tank formations.

Upgrading the existing fleet is cheaper than buying 100 T-72's and, with carefull design and planning, you would probably end up with something that is at least as good as the T72B but likely better

M14A1:

Ok
I guess you are still dwelling on the now. I like to see matters from the angle that they have escalated or would escalate regardless of current engagement.
That way I'm prepared.
Let's say the north east turns into a Gaza strip overnight, would you still support the current posture?

You are asking what nigeria will do if the NE has a popultion density increase of like 200% and undergoes massive urbanization and serious topographical changes?

patches689:


So its a trade off:

Eagle Tank:

-you have lots of them
- very versatile main gun
- FCS is about as good or better than most of your T-72's
- carries more on-board ammo than a T72

#ReleaseTheEagleTank

Which is my only plus, cash strapped Nigeria can't throw away all those mbts.

patches689:


You are asking what nigeria will do if the NE has a popultion density increase of like 200% and undergoes massive urbanization and serious topographical changes?

Scratch that I mean Hamas styled frontline, la fireworks

M14A1:

Scratch that I mean Hamas styled frontline, la fireworks

Well unless you get your hands on a latest gen western Isrealy gear you are fvcked because they are the only army on earth designed to fight in an environment like that.

patches689:


Well unless you get your hands on a latest gen western Isrealy gear you are fvcked because they are the only army on earth designed to fight in an environment like that

patches689:


Well unless you get your hands on a latest gen western Isrealy gear you are fvcked because they are the only army on earth designed to fight in an environment like that.

F#*k you for making me laugh this hard.

M14A1:

F#*k you for making me laugh this hard.

Funny but sad though

Look at how American gear in Saudi hands fared in Yemen.

People often forget that things are designed to be used a certain way. When you dont use it that way, its near useless.

American gear is designed for shock and awe combined-arms high mobility operations... not sit on a hill and wait for some guy in a turban to knock you out with a cheap chinese ATGM

Russian gear is designed to be cheap to build, cheap to operate and used in huge numbers... not seiging some syrian town and waiting for some guy in a turban to knock you out with a cheap chinese ATGM.

But Isreal, they design their gear for that kind of fighting.

Just one example is that the Merkava 4 has the thickest roof armor of any MBT because they got tired of being knocked out by RPG's fired from high buildings. Or the Namer's pre-decessor the IDF Achzarit which was created when Isreal realized (in Lebanon) that they need a heavy APC to move troops around in built up areas with lots of ATGM's.

patches689:


Funny but sad though

Look at how American gear in Saudi hands fared in Yemen.

People often forget that things are designed to be used a certain way. When you dont use it that way, its near useless.

American gear is designed for shock and awe combined-arms high mobility operations... not sit on a hill and wait for some guy in a turban to knock you out with a cheap chinese ATGM

Russian gear is designed to be cheap to build, cheap to operate and used in huge numbers... not seiging some syrian town and waiting for some guy in a turban to knock you out with a cheap chinese ATGM.

But Isreal, they design their gear for that kind of fighting.

Just one example is that the Merkava 4 has the thickest roof armor of any MBT because they got tired of being knocked out by RPG's fired from high buildings. Or the Namer's pre-decessor the IDF Achzarit which was created when Isreal realized (in Lebanon) that they need a heavy APC to move troops around in built up areas with lots of ATGM's.

You forgot to add American tech Cost shieet tons of money to field and operate.
www.nairaland.com/attachments/3268839_x3_jpeg867ab08405bcb1840afe2d75fafd4b78

www.nairaland.com/attachments/3269194_facebook20160107192132_jpegeb8d1c89ba5b4eabd2dbb7685495969a

M14A1:

Ok
I guess you are still dwelling on the now. I like to see matters from the angle that they have escalated or would escalate regardless of current engagement.
That way I'm prepared.
Let's say the north east turns into a Gaza strip overnight, would you still support the current posture?

Nigeria currently faces no requirement that would have us purchase Tanks like the T-90 in the "interim", the T-90 would always be long term. what we need is to be able to deploy the full spectrum of assets we have, and in their most effective capabilities.


The N.E and Gaza are not the same. When making comparisons you take into account the political realities of each individual environment, on an individual basis.

M14A1:

Which is my only plus, cash strapped Nigeria can't throw away all those mbts.

You don't throw away MBTs which were last delivered in the 90s. No army does that, cash strapped or not.

Henry240:


You don't throw away MBTs which were last delivered in the 90s. No army does that, cash strapped or not.

Military hardwares don't upgrade themselves, you don't take delivery since 90s and start sipping tea, while threats have steadily been evolving and would continue to evolve beyond your capabilities, that's why stuffs become obsolete. In this case the amour really is.
We really can't throw away 200+ MBTs even though certain components have become moribund, somebody needs to start thinking how to either upgrade the vickers to a low cost and acceptable modern contemporary mbt alternative or getting a fresh T90 and fast.

Henry240:


Nigeria currently faces no requirement that would have us purchase Tanks like the T-90 in the "interim", the T-90 would always be long term. what we need is to be able to deploy the full spectrum of assets we have, and in their most effective capabilities.


The N.E and Gaza are not the same. When making comparisons you take into account the political realities of each individual environment, on an individual basis.

Its a good tank, patches689 has put in some pros of it for me to better appreciate it, but I would be lying if i say key components are not obsolete. Remember my first post was about it being a crematorium, which it currently really is.

M14A1:

Military hardwares don't upgrade themselves, you don't take delivery since 90s and start sipping tea, while threats have steadily been evolving and would continue to evolve beyond your capabilities, that's why stuffs become obsolete. In this case the amour really is.
We really can't throw away 200+ MBTs even though certain components have become moribund, somebody needs to start thinking how to either upgrade the vickers to a low cost and acceptable modern contemporary mbt or getting a fresh T90 and fast.

Hence the upgraded ones we saw in the video.


Our current threats haven't evolved beyond our capabilities, over the past 6 years we've been able to contain the threat to Borno state, pushing the threat from 12 states to 1.

I'm sure you've seen the war zones of Turkey and Russia, despite fielding top of the line MBTs(equipment), threats especially in Turkey have escalated.


My point is, before replacements are found Nigerian Vickers are well equipped to deal with our current threats as long as they are serviceable. The machine is just a tool, it is the man that wins the war.

algeria gendarmerie displaying their skills

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTzsCH20f8M

M14A1:

Military hardwares don't upgrade themselves, you don't take delivery since 90s and start sipping tea, while threats have steadily been evolving and would continue to evolve beyond your capabilities, that's why stuffs become obsolete. In this case the amour really is.
We really can't throw away 200+ MBTs even though certain components have become moribund, somebody needs to start thinking how to either upgrade the vickers to a low cost and acceptable modern contemporary mbt or getting a fresh T90 and fast.

Buying a T90 in 2016 is a bad idea

If you are a country like Algeria or India and your orders are well over 200... yeah, then it does because of the costs involved. And because countries like Algeria/India replace their MBT fleet every 20 or so years.

But for Nigeria who's order will likely be 100 or less?

T90 is pushing obsolescence, the latest Russian upgrade programe is slated to be the last and has squeezed every single gram of capablity out of it. That means it will steadily be dating from now on.

There are many, many tanks out there that are just as good, but cheaper or just outright better.

Korea is about to have excess K1's (best option IMO), Ukrain is ramping up Oplot production and should soon be able to deliver more than 5 a year, Turkey has a couple hundred Leo 1's that are about to be available... poland has about 400 T-72's that can all be upgraded to "twardy" status for export and finally India has hundreds of Ajeya-M2 that will be available once Arjun production commences*

And those are just tanks that can be bought on the cheap.

Its a simple question of:

- Cheap tank for immediate use

- Long term aquisition for a dynasty platform

T90 fills neither of those two categories.

*yes, I am aware than a couple of these are just fancy T-72s

M14A1:

Its a good tank, patches689 has put in some pros of it for me to better appreciate it, but I would be lying if i say key components are not obsolete. Remember my first post was about it being a crematorium, which it currently really is.

My response was, they are neither old or obsolete for our current threats. We cannot be planning for the future, when we've channeled our resources to deal with the present.


For this Boko-Haram type threat, they are appropriate.

Henry240:


Hence the upgraded ones we saw in the video.


Our current threats haven't evolved beyond our capabilities, over the past 6 years we've been able to contain the threat to Borno state, pushing the threat from 12 states to 1.

I'm sure you've seen the war zones of Turkey and Russia, despite fielding top of the line MBTs(equipment), threats especially in Turkey have escalated.


My point is, before replacements are found Nigerian Vickers are well equipped to deal with our current threats as long as they are serviceable. The machine is just a tool, it is the man that wins the war.

Valid
But we really can't tell what's current threat when dealing with insurgents of this calibre.
Tomorrow you could roll into battle and find out you are getting plucked like low hanging fruits with patches689 proverbial Chinese ATGM, that's gonna suck.
This insurgency should have thought us one thing which is never to learn the hard way.

Henry240:


My response was, they are neither old or obsolete for our current threats. We cannot be planning for the future, when we've channeled our resources to deal with the present.


For this Boko-Haram type threat, they are appropriate.

Cash strapped it is.
I'm buying the upgrade story the army is selling about the vickers, but my concern is what exactly are the upgrades, because from the news excerpt I didn't hear nothing on amour, which is the major short fall

M14A1:

Cash strapped it is.
I'm buying the upgrade story the army is selling about the vickers, but my concern is what exactly are the upgrades, because from the news excerpt I didn't hear nothing on amour, which is the major short fall

To be honest the video does not say anything about an upgrade

the threat posed on soft skinned vehicles in an I.E.D prone environment

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkArivAssJg

patches689:


Buying a T90 in 2016 is a bad idea

If you are a country like Algeria or India and your orders are well over 200... yeah, then it does because of the costs involved. And because countries like Algeria/India replace their MBT fleet every 20 or so years.

But for Nigeria who's order will likely be 100 or less?

T90 is pushing obsolescence, the latest Russian upgrade programe is slated to be the last and has squeezed every single gram of capablity out of it. That means it will steadily be dating from now on.

There are many, many tanks out there that are just as good, but cheaper or just outright better.

Korea is about to have excess K1's (best option IMO), Ukrain is ramping up Oplot production and should soon be able to deliver more than 5 a year, Turkey has a couple hundred Leo 1's that are about to be available... poland has about 400 T-72's that can all be upgraded to "twardy" status for export and finally India has hundreds of Ajeya-M2 that will be available once Arjun production commences*

And those are just tanks that can be bought on the cheap.

Its a simple question of:

- Cheap tank for immediate use

- Long term aquisition for a dynasty platform

T90 fills neither of those two categories.

*yes, I am aware than a couple of these are just fancy T-72s

It doesn't have to be a T90.

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