joey150:
doctor alien we have dabbled about this on and on. My evidence for purgatory is clear. Read up and choose to believe or dont.

Because you are beginning to ask very petty questions now. If you dont believe that there is a place where sin can Be attoned for other than earth as Jesus and saint Paul stated. Then really i have nothing to add or subtract regarding this.

We are going in circles and its clear the rotation would be infinite judging at this rate we are going.

Just bear in mind that other than earth there is actually a place where some sins can be attoned for. If you dont, even after Jesus himself said so. Why bother read the bible at all? Since you choose which parts to follow and which not to.

joey150:
so everything has to be stated word for word and letter for letter jn the scripture? Despite the fact that you know all Jesus works and teachings where not all documented in the scripture.

DoctorAlien:


So Jesus' atonement is not enough?

Explain purgatory in the light of this verse: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Heb. 9:27

joey150:
ohh really.

.explain how Lazarus could still awake after 3 days. oh was he judged and then Jesus brough him back from heaven ir hell.

or was Jesus joking around when he mentioned next world??

souls in purgatory are not spiritually dead, they are heaven bound in 1corinthians 15:29 saint paul mentions that people where baptizing for the dead or even john 11:42 where Jesus prays for the dead.
in John 11:25 and romans 8:35-38- Jesus and saint paul made it clear that even those who are dead and believe in Christ even after biological death would continue to live on.

joey150:
unpleasant in the sense that.. its still purification by fire.

as mentioned in 1 Corinthians: 3. 13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

even Jesus hinted at it in Matthew: 12. 31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the next .
take note of "nor in the next"

DoctorAlien:


It is very funny how you isolate verses from their contexts and misconstrue them. Paul, in 1 Cor. 3 was talking about labour in the gospel mission. Just read from verse 6, and you will see that Paul was not talking about the so-called purgatory. He was talking about building up of the church. Every teaching built on false ideas must collapse, while the people who taught such will have a chance to repent.

It says a man's work will be tried, not the man. His work, not him.

joey150:
not to say that christ suffering and death was insufficient or incomplete, but we still have our role to play. to think that Jesus has taken care of our future sins is plain ridiculous. even saint Paul even made a remark in phillippians 2:12 "work out your salvation in fear and trembling" . salvation is complete. but take for instance a football tournament..everything is set the stadias are Ready to host. but participants must still have to qualify,buy tickets, some will not even make it to the tournament. this dosent change the fact that the stadium is Ready to host any team that makes it through.

joey150:
oh well, first you dont just opt to be in purgatory or hell or heaven.. did the rich man die in Gods grace? did he merit purgatory? thats a bit sketchy.

secondly,souls in purgatory are heaven bound there are no damnation of souls in purgatory. one cannot make amends after THE GRAVE. if you merit Gods grace while on earth and you are not perfectly clean you will be purified before uniting with him. nobody is saying you automatically choose after death and opt for purgatory or that we should live unholy lives and aim for it in the end.

it is simply put, purification by fire.

Jesus himself was well aware when he said in Matthew 12:31-32 "niether in this world nor the NEXT" meaning there is actually somewhere else apart from this world where sins can be attoned for.

analice107:

Theres no doubt about a Next world, but i will need your scriptures on people dying in Gods grace yet not being totally clean to enter heaven and are kept in purgatory.
Sir pls, a scripture as to what a soul needs to do to merit purgatory. And the purging or cleansing agent used to process these souls for heaven

joey150:
lol. funny you.
i didnt know about islam. but note that purgatory isnt for everybody. as i have clearly stated.

its safe to assume that either all the time you where in the catholic church you never understood what was going on, or some other events actually influenced your decision to leave.

that is why half education is dangerous.

analice107:

When you are in Catholic Church, these things don't mean anything to you. You just believe anything you are told, when you start reading the Bible, you will question these things. That is what happened to me.

joey150:
We know from the Bible that Jesus ascended 10 days before Pentecost and that He was crucified during the Passover. So, that would mean he was on earth approximately 40 days before His ascension.

analice107:

Go back and read your Bible. When Mary Magdalene wanted to hold Jesus out of amazement that he has indeed risen from the death, what did Christ tell her.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, Do not cling to Me [do not hold Me], for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brethren and tell them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.
That very day, Jesus ascended into Heaven and presented himself to His father, before coming back to give the last instructions.

joey150:
clearly alot of things happened to you.

alot also happens to the jihadist. they read the Quran and suddenly nothing they tell them in the mosques ever makes sense.

its a trend...its been happening thats why we have oure 4000 christian denominations. everybody is reading and seeing "things" if you fault the church st Peter himself lead and on which christ promised to build his church, safe to say that you keep reading amd maybe you'll see "things" that will lead you back to your faith.

cheers Ana! you sound smart. am sure you'll still come around

joey150:
well at this junction i think this is the most pin point explanation i can point to..

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/the-burning-truth-about-purgatory.html

try and read up on the link as its comes from the negative point like you do .

doctoralien
analice107

i am not a theologian. but i will continue to point you to the truth

analice107:

lol. am not smart. Am a regular babe. cheers dear. Stay blessed.

analice107:

Hahahahahahahahahaha. Theres no truth anywhere else outside the Bible. For no other foundation can any man lay other than the one laid by Christ. Thanks for kinds words anyways.

joey150:
well at this junction i think this is the most pin point explanation i can point to..

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/the-burning-truth-about-purgatory.html

try and read up on the link as its comes from the negative point like you do .

doctoralien
analice107

i am not a theologian. but i will continue to point you to the truth

joey150:
Jesus himself was well aware when he said in Matthew 12:31-32 "niether in this world nor the NEXT" meaning there is actually somewhere else apart from this world where sins can be attoned for.

ayoku777:


Your interpretation of this verse is not correct.

Matthew 12v32 -And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither IN THIS WORLD, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME.

The word "world" there is the greek "aion" which means "age". What the verse means is "in this age or in the age to come". It doesn't mean another place other than this world. It is still this world, but the age to come -the millenial reign. The "NEXT" there is not purgatory but the millenial.

What Jesus meant is that those who reject the Spirit of God in this age and refuse to believe in Jesus (which is the sin against the Holy Spirit), would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come -the millenial (some unbelievers would still be alive in the millenial reign).

Now, that being said, scripture also says;

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

At the judgment seat of Christ, our works shall be tested by fire. And believers with wood, hay and stubble (works of the flesh) will suffer loss, but they themselves would be saved; yet so as by fire.

What this implies (I stand to be corrected) is that believers whose spirits have been saved and regenerated through faith in Christ but who did not have their souls reformed by the word of God through fellowship with the Spirit of God, but continued walking in the lust of the flesh, would have their souls reformed as by fire at the judgment seat of Christ.

Carnality will not be allowed in heaven, even though it will not cost us our salvation or eternal life.

Even so, the judgment seat of Christ is not purgatory. Jesus didn't preach purgatory and the apostles didn't either. And if we christians are going to keep ourselves within the revealed truth of God's word and refuse to go above what is written, we will not preach purgatory either.

Believers go to be with the Lord when they die.

2Cor 5v8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

Philippians 1v23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST; which is far better:

The only thing between the death of a believer and heaven is the judgment seat of Christ -not purgatory.

Hebrews 9v27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

2Cor 5v8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

You see? After the death of a believer, it is the judgment (seat of Christ), then heaven -not purgatory. Let's not go above what is written.

Shalom

DoctorAlien:


What truth are you pointing me to? Belief in purgatory that is clearly a pagan idea that has found its way into the apostate church?

The Scripture is the truth, not the teachings of men.

analice107:


Sir. You are mixing something up here.
look at that 1Cor 3:13 again. as a matter of fact read down to 23 to get a clearer picture of what Paul is saying. You are Isolating Verse 13 and trying to make it mean something else.

Bible 1 Corinthians 3:13-23 The work of each [one] will become [plainly, openly] known (shown for what it is);

for the day [of Christ] will disclose and declare it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work each person has done.

If the work which any person has built on this Foundation [any product of his efforts whatever] survives [this test], he will get his reward.

But if any person’s work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.


@Ops. 1 Cor 3:13 is not talking about Purgatory at all.

joey150:

First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Mt 7:21-23, Jn 8:40, Gal 5:19-21)? If these works do not represent sins and imperfections, why would they need to be eliminated? Second, it is impossible for a work to be cleansed apart from the human being who performed it. We are, in a certain sense, what we do when it comes to our moral choices. There is no such thing as a work floating around somewhere detached from a human being that could be cleansed apart from that human being. The idea of works being separate from persons does not make sense.
Most importantly, however, this idea of works being burned up apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives . . . he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he
will be saved, but only as through fire” . The truth is: Both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by Paul so that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like purgatory, doesn’t it?

doctoralien

joey150:
Anyway where was Lazarus for 3days? if after death is judgement as you said?

joey150:
judgement seat of Christ... well thats a new one.

joey150:
if nothing unclean shall enter heaven, which i suppose you believe.. and if there is actually just heaven and hell...hmmm what are the odds of finding perfectly unblemished at the time of their death??

joey150:
anyway read 2maccabees 12:45-46.
or read 1corinthians 15:29 where saint Paul tells us people baptize for the dead.

oh even Jesus prayed for a dead man in John11:42
ohh what about 1john 5:16.

joey150:
fact that there is no outright bible scripture that actually says yes there is purgatory.. evidences in the same bible point to a place where sin can be attoned for even after death.

joey150:
and overtime,after the age of the bible. saints and religious overtime have confirmed the existence. but if i bring that to the fold it would sound like a fairytale. . which is the opposite of my objective..do read those and tell me what you think of them.
cheers!

joey150:

First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Mt 7:21-23, Jn 8:40, Gal 5:19-21)? If these works do not represent sins and imperfections, why would they need to be eliminated? Second, it is impossible for a work to be cleansed apart from the human being who performed it. We are, in a certain sense, what we do when it comes to our moral choices. There is no such thing as a work floating around somewhere detached from a human being that could be cleansed apart from that human being. The idea of works being separate from persons does not make sense.
Most importantly, however, this idea of works being burned up apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives . . . he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he
will be saved, but only as through fire” . The truth is: Both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by Paul so that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like purgatory, doesn’t it?

ayoku777:


Until Jesus Christ died and rose, no one was righteous enough for paradise or eternal life.

John 3v13 - And NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

So before Christ death and resurrection, everyone who died went to sheol. Even Samuel;

1Samuel 28v14 -And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that IT WAS SAMUEL, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

And David;

[color=red] Acts 2v34 - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

That was also where Abraham and Lazarus were in the story of Jesus, the restful side of sheol (also called Abraham's bosom) while the rich man was in the torment side.

So since the Lazarus of John 11 died before Christ death, he obviously was in Abraham's bosom, the restful side of sheol during the three days before he was raised back by Jesus.



Well, its a new one to you; not to the scriptures. The doctrine of the judment seat of Christ is a biblically sound doctrine.

2Cor 5v10 - For we must all appear before THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



You were so quick to reply you didn't see that I explained this question with the scripture.

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

At the judgment seat of Christ, our works shall be tested by fire. And believers with wood, hay and stubble (works of the flesh) will suffer loss, but they themselves would be saved; yet so as by fire.

What this implies is that believers whose spirits have been saved and regenerated through faith in Christ but who did not have their souls reformed by the word of God through fellowship with the Spirit of God, but continued walking in the lust of the flesh, would have their souls reformed as by fire at the judgment seat of Christ.



How does the practise of the Corinthian church of being baptized for the dead become proof of purgatory to you?

Believers were baptized immediately after conversion in the early church. So loved ones that were baptised for were loved ones who died before Jesus came.

The early church believed that Jesus went to preach to spirits in sheol during the three days of his death, that is, those who died before the gospel came.

This can only be the dead loved ones that the Corinthian church formed a doctrine of being baptized for, since they only got to hear the gospel after death. And there was no where it was said that any other church practised it or that believers should emulate the practise, even though Paul didn't exactly rebuke the Corinthians for it.

And how does the raising of Lazarus from the death also proof purgatory? Can the dead not be raised from sheol? All the souls in torment in sheol now will still be raised to life at the end of the millenial reign.

So raising the dead does not prove the existence of purgatory.



Show me a place where the bible said there is another place where sins can be attoned for even after that?

What Jesus said is that those who reject the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. "Aion" means age.



You're right, it would sound like fairytale to me. Because we christians establish doctrine with scripture, not with the supposed visions and dreams of people, no matter who they are.

Whatever cannot be clearly backed up with the scriptures is of private interpretation not Holy spirit revelation.

2Peter 1v20 - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Shalom!

analice107:

You want that scripture to mean what you want it to mean, fine.

joey150:


lol really?
its making sense..but urm as usual.. you dare not agree that its correct because agreeing means accepting purgatory. and hell no! you have seen the truth and as such you dare not agree on that catholic tradition.


this is why half education is dangerous..i still maintain you where never a Catholic concerned deeply with her faith. you only knew everything halfway and never really understood in depth. sadly there are so many others like you out there. who'll go and read books and then their mind becomes disjointed.. and they buy the idea that the church scammed you.

i will leave you with
Matthew: 16. 18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. come back to God's one true church! come back home!!
cheers ana.

analice107:

So you think the Church Christ means there is a particular Church? Sorry.

joey150:
ahan. here is a new twist.
but you just accused me of interpreting the bible how it suited me . lets see your own version of this one. educate me please.