Wealthyone:


@mazaje, He's God not god. Its very obvious u are mocking Islam cos ur earlier comments reveal dat. If u dont belief in Allah, must u open mock or blaspheme? i wont abuse/attack u on this issue, the all-knowing and all-seeing is aware of all u do/say/write about him.


]Innah Llah Gafur Rahim

LordAdam:

Maybe you need to read through our previous discussions to stay on topic. There's a link between morals and empathy. I said sure, you said not true. I've also told you that this is complex, but establishing a fundamental link is vital to understanding morals.

Giving replies to your points would lead this discussion elsewhere. Most universal morals like not committing murder impinges on empathy, I'm least concerned about local norms or customs because they're bound to change as well as have a significant number of people who dismiss societal norms.

The fact that our contemporary society frowns on homosexuality does not signal my respect for the disapproval, nor make me accept it (the disapproval) as my morals. When I discuss morals, I discuss it on the individual scale, not communal - which tends to be boggled up.

On an individual scale, and using my self as an example, I would not steal because of empathy for the person I'd be stealing from. And most times, when parents discipline, caution or try to instill morals in their kids, they do so by establishing the implicating rather than consequential reason why they (the kids) should adhere to the morals--especially when they're able to comprehend rationality.

We are adults on here, some of us have children, some are yet to: the more we give good empathic reasons to stick with certain morals the less we'd go against them. That my friend is the link between empathy and morals.

ifeness:

i doubt Allah deserves a capital g

E nice: God may exist, i don't know. But what i know is that the concept of God as written in the bible is wrong. My reason is this: how can God hand over the earth to the devil just because Adam ate one fruit. He now wants to redeem less than 10% of his own property by sacrificing his only begotten son to the same devil. This is beyond reasoning.

grandstar:

Many thanks for your response above and I apologise for my last response. Just saw it yesterday and a laptop is best to reply you and not a phone.

You asked a valid question,"why do I believe there is a Creator?". I too don't subscribe to blind faith. Even the bible says" You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe knowing from whom you learned them" (Acts 3:14).

Also Proverbs 14:15 says a " A fool will believe anything"

Back to your question, why do I believe there is a Creator?

Well, if I owned a samsung 4 with all its effizzy, will I think it came by chance, thats its just a wild concidence it exist? Would you?

How much more a human being? It is said that the possibility that an the probability that the protein in a cell came by chance is 1 in 10 raised to the power 150. Science says anything greater than 117 should be dismissed as impossible. If the protein in a cell can notr come by chance , hoiw much more a whole person!

It is said that the earth rotates round the sun and the moon round the earth. How it does this with precision still s baffles the mind. Its like a supergigantic watchpeice that is precision personified. Pls imagine the movement for a second. If a rolex watch can not come by chance, how much more the precise movements of these galactic bodies.

The book of Isaiah gives us an answer (Isaiah 40:26)

26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who brings out their army by number;
He calls them all by name. Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power,+ Not one of them is missing.

Who regulates the Heavens if not the one we call God the Creator.

We can see intelligent design all around rather than anarchy.

Apostle said " For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made,+ even his eternal power and Godship,so that they are inexcusable (Romans 1:20)

If you need to know more , pls pm me

Wealthyone:

Never knew so many atheists exist here in Nigeria till I came across this thread. I can't imagine a human being claiming there's no GOD. Haba!!!

mandhi!!!!:
@generalsheperd, if I may ask, y don't u believe in GOD.

KenGali:

These your questions do not in any way disprove intelligent design.
One of the fallacies used by people who refer to baseless logic is to jump to secondary questions without answering primary one.

The nature of the origin of the intelligent designer does not in any way interfere with the fact that all the designs we have seen are evidences of his existence. You questions are totally irrelevant to the question of existence of an Intelligent Design with purpose and consciousness.

Further, assuming you can ascribe him to chance, it is definitely not the same chance that you can you would like to ascribe to yourself, as you do not share the same capability or environment or realm as the designer. The fact still remains that you and I live in a world so complex, and volatile, that the probability of having originated from random chance is way smaller than the probability of passing a horse through the eye of a needle.

GeneralShepherd:

If another more intelligent designer designed god,do you not think He/she/it will throw both you and god into hell?

The problem of infinite regression is the major problem of intelligent!

LordAdam:

I did not point out in my post that multi-religiousness is secularism. I think there's a flaw in your understanding to construe that from my post. I only pointed to the core moments of our celebration of human advancements at times when religious groups co-existed peacefully. It was only when each had more tolerance towards each other, that the seeds of rational thinking was born (no one thinks rationally when there is strive). Of course, these thoughts were regulated by the religious institutions, but the lesser attached these thinkers were to religion the more advancements were made. Thoughts flowed from one religion to the other, respect flourished, and if the barriers were not there believe you me they'd have gone farther than they did. For example, Isaac Newton had to cock up some of his convictions so he wasn't accused of heresy. Galilieo had it worse, all because of established religion.

Now if religion had it's way, more than 50% of the world presently would not use contraceptives, think of the implications. People are more inclined to behave more rationally when they associate and are allowed to go about with as little divisions as possible, thus multi-religiousness breeds secularism. They distinct but related, the growing number of Nigerian Atheists, Free-thinkers, Agnostics, Non-religious theists; is a testament of this archetype.

Atheists would still mourn their loved ones, they'd lay wreaths, visit the tombs of their loved ones, pay their taxes, donate to charity, protect the environment. The greater call of us all to stand up for ourselves, uphold fundamental human rights, protect our environment, say no to devious crimes and established propanda even when they're a way of life in certain places: is totally as a result of secularism. Part of that can be attributed to Evolution and or Darwinism. Think of it, if the Portuguese knew the Dodo were an indigenous specie that should be hunted in moderation because they undoubtedly have a role to play their ecological habitat, instead of just creatures of God; they'd not be extinct today.

Religion is a chain, I've been a better person since I stopped being religious, everyone I know who has stopped has too. It might be in a big way or in a small way: people have cultures, ever heard of Atheist Christians, Atheist Muslims; they're people who do not believe in God but still hang out with their family come Christmas, or any of the Eid holidays. We are a social species, it may not be out of place to argue that Religion has evolved as a result of our habits as a species to be social, but now we've evolved to the point where we recognize each other's worth without the cloak of religion. And we are gaining new strides, of course we are not perfect, no one has the magic potion but looking back at what we've achieved in the last century, I'm proud to have lived in present times and not in the dark ages were religion was mainstream and as much as 30 million people were killed during the Inquisition.

Religion still has it's ackles firmly in humanity, the respect for important figures like the Pope, the Shah, the Dalai Lama; various religious leaders in all 200+ countries in the world: is reason enough to just beat out the notion of humans becoming non-religious in the next quarter of a millennium (even if inter-stellar travel becomes possible in as soon as 2035). The Roman Catholic Church still is the world's richest organization having the largest reserves of the real currency that has value-Gold. Religious wars still happen as more people would die this year from religious crisis than from AIDS.

In this all, forgive me for not being optimistic about a few pockets of people around the world denouncing Religion for being a fraud and opting for rationalism. Like Mandela said, it's a long walk to freedom. Gandhi said, I have no problems with Christ, it's Christians I have problem with. I'm proud to not be religious, I feel letting people know the importance of rationalism and humanism predates that of the unholy assertion--follow us or face eternal damnation.

LordAdam:

Now I was hoping you'd make this a hard nut to crack but like kids say it's easy peasy.

You claim to have studied intelligence design--guess what I have too, but that's the point. The point is that you obviously were doing the study with a biased mind; either that or you were doing the study while paying no attention to your science classes.

A physicist or mathematician would give you a detailed reason why our Sun is not dead yet (it's still a theory that the there are multiple universes so you'd be hard-pressed to find a pro to prove why our Universe is not dead yet). That's if you can stay long enough to listen to scientific jabber: but more lightly it has to do with the age of the Sun. You see things don't just happen in our Universe, there's an explanation, the fact that we don't know it does not mean it ain't there. Oh, and if you want to say how can the Mathematician prove that, try to remember that Newton calculated the gravity of the moon, and it's distance from earth centuries before we stepped on the moon, many particles and phenomena like the Higgs Bison, anti-matter, dark holes were proven theoretically before they were ever discovered.

If I can sit down and understand that the present cosmos is ordered, that a Comet is a space mass that entered Earth's orbit and was pulled in by gravity, instead of a fiery projectile thrown by Zeus on Olympus, then I have no trouble dismissing an intelligent design as reason for the stability. Times past earthquakes were regarded as the god's, God's judgement, today we know they're as a result of tectonic plates having a trudgy romance.

Did you miss science class when it was said that Energy can neither be created nor destroyed? If yes, why do you discuss the importance of essence? Many stars go kaboom every night somewhere in the universe & new celestial bodies (planets, asteroids, even galaxies) are formed; and you're here in your little arguably negligible microcosm talking about essence of destruction and its relationship to intelligent design. It's the kind of story you tell to people who believe Yahweh destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha with hails directly from the sky (when today it's been proven it was most probably a volcanic eruption that laid waste to the civilization that once occupied that land.

Intelligence design is simply an assumption. It is a theory likened to the one that Aliens built the Pyramid of Giza, that it was literally impossible for the Egyptians to build a pyramid that big within the time period it's being historically recorded to have been built: not to mention the engineering marvels that have been described by modern Engineers as unbelievable for the times. These are theories that are believed not proven. A believer of the Alien construction or Alien seeding or historic Alien-human interaction, can not give the Pyramid of Giza as a proof of their belief. In the same light, you can't give the complexities in the world and the universe as we know it to be a conclusive proof of Intelligent design.

As much as I try to feel comfortable with your sense of humor, mankind have the habit of sticking to what they know till there's a literal explainable proof to dismiss what they know. Again I'd refer you to my earlier question of you ever attending a science class--surely you know of Newton's laws. I'm not saying one should not explore and conquer (it's actually our nature, we do it most times subconsciously and sometimes we continue even in the face of it being illogical): we should only dismiss an acknowledged belief when there's an unarguable reason to. For now, the known universe does not give us an indisputable reason to accept intelligent design, if anything better luck next time.

Erelu_Y:

WHAT A DUMP RESPONSE AND DEFENSE.

KenGali:

Again you are mixing religious tolerance with secularism. Secondly you seem to think that only atheist are Scientific. Kindly note that some of the fundamental advances in mathematic were made by Moslem scholars. That you were told that the time saw tolerance of non religious view does not translate that the view holders where not religious. You mentioned Newton, note that his treatise on the falling apple is one of the fundamental ideas used by theologians in concluding the existence of God.
Galileo was more a victim of an age that was not open to ideas than the Christian religion. The bible texts as written in the book of Genesis is totally compatible with Galileo's ideas. The religious men were simply sticking to there own interpretation and ideas of the universe, while Galileo had an Alternative which did not contrast with his belief. I hope you know Galileo was a very religious man. A devote Catholic.

So your write up is mixing a lot of ideas together. On one hand you sound like you are advocating religious tolerance, which I am for. Then you switch to the idea that religion is the only problem to advancement. Without basis of course, as most of the advancement you reference were made by highly religious man. If you were in the dark ages you will still be proud to have lived then, since you will have no idea of a more advanced life. Just like in future, some people will be looking back at us an deride the kinds of political wars we fight today and the mayhem. Do not mix up human advancement as a prize for non-religiousness, especially when you have no basis to make such conclusions. scientist all over the world are still by huge portion religious people. While we enjoy more freedom of ideas, there is still room for conservatism in the face of our new abilities to wake up long extinct species and even blow up our own planet.

KenGali:

Easy queasy!!!!!
You spent your time up there telling me about how things are organised without providing a single proof about who or what did the consistent organisation we see everywhere. What crap are you talking about essence.

Of course when you look at an internal combustion engine, it seems perfectly logical to have something for ignition, some timing rod, or even a crank shaft, except someone made it carefully. Similarly. When you look at that the sun, our great nuclear reactor and all the harmful rays it spews, it seems logical to have a shield, the ozone, but again someone thought of it.

When I tell you that I spent more than half my life studying intelligent designs, I mean my science class, so have no doubt about my education. How ever on your own side, I think you need to go beyond classical theories, to appreciate my view point. Classical Mechanics is only a subset of a much larger Reality. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed is just a classical theory, I believe I spoke about something different, the inter convertibility of energy and matter, the famous E=MC^2 from Einstein, the dual paradox of light photons behaving like particles and again like waves, or the ability of gravity to attract and prevent escape of light in black holes. Do get yourself up to date, am sure when you do and appreciate how complex and beyond classical theories the world is, you will appreciate intelligent design.

Last you want to retain beliefs until you can prove otherwise. Yet you are here talking about Atheism without any conclusive proof or alternative evidence of non-conscious processes that randomly and intelligently design complex functioning entities. Do yourself a favour and take your own advise, stick to what is obvious and leave elusive shadows.

I hope you can see that if I extend your argument above about the Pyramids of Egypt, you can also not conclude that they were not built by Aliens, which is the equivalent of Atheist saying there is no God without any solid scientific proof. Finding contradiction in religious text is not a proof that there is no God.

Peterken05: @lord adam, can you pls leave him alone, i know his type

Wealthyone:

Never knew so many atheists exist here in Nigeria till I came across this thread. I can't imagine a human being claiming there's no GOD. Haba!!!

Uyi Iredia:

Chances are you will proudly claim there's no Amadioha, Zeus, Ra, Ogun etc or at least state they pale in comparison to Jesus. You will easilly denounce Muhammad, Buddha or Zoroaster yet be shocked someone can denounce Jesus. This is ironic.

PAGAN 9JA:


who is this fellow?

Dude NElson Mandela sufferred more than the mythical jesus. He stayed in prison for decades. you should go worship him!

since you like worshipping men. .

SAVED BABA: Jesus is God,Nelson Mandela is man, PIONT OF CORRECT:Jesus is nt mythical

GeneralShepherd: Since I officially dumped the idea of a god, I haven't seen my parents. I went home this christmas,it was a wonderful holiday for me,little did I know my mum was hurting deep down inside!

She called me today being the 1st of January 2014 and started telling me how she asked Yahweh to give her a son after she had four girls(who are all married) which He did according to her. She told me how she has barely slept most nights in the pasy year because of my atheism. Also said it might lead her to her early grave if I continue living without god.

My dilemma is I can't pretend about god and the bible,yet I don't want my mum to die or have sleepless nights! When people read the bible the smile on face shows I don't believe any of it, when I try to pray I feel like I'm mad talking to myself or like a kid talking to Barney and friends!

How do I undo what has been done! [size=15pt]How do I unknow what I know about god and religion?[/size] How do I ignore the inconsistencies?

I love my mum so much and will gladly become a sheeple for her to be happy

Mr_Anony:

What exactly do you know about God and Religion?

Mr_Anony:

What exactly do you know about God and Religion?

kjhova:
A lot of guys here have raised the idea that design in nature supports the existence of god or at least a "higher intelligent being".

Ok. Let's test this arguement. Suppose design in nature is proof enough of a higher being, who is to say if this being is a "he" as most have been saying? Can this being be a "she"? Or an "it"? Then perhaps we are actually dealing with a set of beings? As someone suggested that automobile production is analogous to natural design, can we then suppose that the universe was designed by a mega factory of gods? If we accept that design in nature is proof of god, which of the existing gods win the bet? Allah (with no son), Jehovah (with 1 son) or Zeus (with many sons & daughters)?

Then let's introduce Satan which is the arch enemy of the Abrahamic gods (Jehovah/Allah/Yahweh), since he was "cast unto Earth" according to the bible, are we safe from his operations if we move to, say, Saturn or Mars? If human biosphere spread to the next galaxy, will god grant satan a charter there too or will he find another satan for that realm so he can send his son to die there too?

Finally, is there really a difference between the god theory & the big bang theory of the origin of the Universe? Religionists have always attacked the big bang with one main challenge which is "what started the bang & where did the bang materials come from?" We can ask the same of the god theory, what started god & where was god before he/she/it/they started??

UyiIredia:


Don't you think men have found peace and meaning in life millennia before Jesus came ? And what makes u sure or religion is true above others ?

Teempakguy:
This is the most shocking comment I've read in a long time.

GeneralShepherd:
Since I officially dumped the idea of a god, I haven't seen my parents. I went home this christmas,it was a wonderful holiday for me,little did I know my mum was hurting deep down inside!

She called me today being the 1st of January 2014 and started telling me how she asked Yahweh to give her a son after she had four girls(who are all married) which He did according to her. She told me how she has barely slept most nights in the pasy year because of my atheism. Also said it might lead her to her early grave if I continue living without god.

My dilemma is I can't pretend about god and the bible,yet I don't want my mum to die or have sleepless nights! When people read the bible the smile on face shows I don't believe any of it, when I try to pray I feel like I'm mad talking to myself or like a kid talking to Barney and friends!

How do I undo what has been done! How do I unknow what I know about god and religion? How do I ignore the inconsistencies?

I love my mum so much and will gladly become a sheeple for her to be happy

ilovetheline:
same here, but 2016. How has yours turned out? I just shut my eyes