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Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 10:59am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Okay friends, let me humbly present the response i got when i asked the Holy Spirit, Why He said we should abstain from sex during fasting as couples. He first began by asking me to define FASTING, i gave him the same defination and explanation Ubenedictus gave here. He said, that's how humans view it, but that's not all of it. He said, Fasting doesn't mean absitnence, it means TO FASTEN SOMETHING TOGETHER. It means to tie two together. It means to melt, to fuse, to bind, to glue, to unite tow together. With a purpose. He said, when we Fast, we FASTEN our spirits to His. We become one with Him by melting, fusing, and uniting into Him as one, with the intent of drawing from Him, something we need in the physical world. Something which does not yet exist in the material realm and make it exist. Prayer is calling those things out with our mouths. Abraham calleth things that be not as though they were, and they became. He said, Sex or love making is the same thing. When a man have Sex with his wife, or anyone else, they melt, fuse into each other with the intent of drawing from God a New Life which does not exist yet into existence. He reffered me to Genesis 2:24 which says And a man shall leave his mother and father and join himself to his wife and they both shall become one . It was at thia point i got a deeper understaning of this verse. He said, the reason for which He asked a man to stay away from melting into his wife while melting into Him is that, a man can not melt into God and be melting into his wife at the same time.. When a man and his wife agrees for instance to go to Him in Fasting and prayer asking for a Child or anything else, both of them stand as individuals, separately standing before Him. They melts individually into Him, not as a couple. They may have the same motive, but they are different distinct entities possessing single units of Spirits, and it is with this Spirits they Fasten or fuse into Him. Hence, THEY CAN NOT FUSE INTO GOD AND FUSE INTO each OTHER at the same Time. Here is the reason for abstinence. It has nothing to do with taming the flesh to boost the Spirit. Sex tie souls or Spirits together. It is a highly Spieitual exerxise. Unbelievers do it too to draw from their master what they needs. Someone mentioned People of other faiths, we shd remember that if there's fake it's becos there exists the original. Unbelievers don't Fast, at least not to Jesus. Salom. Cc: Sarassin. Butterflylion Muttleylaff, mujtahida, Ubenedictus, Ronpet777. 1 Like |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 11:16am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Mujtahida:I believe because this is not the first time i have asked and receive answers that i have never heard from anyone before. Mujtahida:Hahahahahahahhaa. When you said you had been a Christian for years, you performed all thise feats in his name, how did you do it? Did He speak to you face to face believe and win souls and perform the miracles you did? How was he communicating with you? Did you lie that you were a Christian? Did you ever had a relationship with Him? I doubt it very much. Okay sir, wait, he wi soeak with you enh. Mujtahida:Sir, this is not about religious books. Pls look for a thread about it and take your consideration there. Thanks. Mujtahida:Hahahahahahahaha. Only those who do not know that sex is a beautiful instituted by God will be doing it in guilt. And, you lie to say sex in marriage enenders guilt. That's completley not true. Only when sex is doen outaide marriage it brings guilt because the inner man bears witness against it. One doesn't need to be a Christian to know that. Pls don't derail this thread. Shalom. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by MuttleyLaff: 11:20am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone:Wow, not bad. You could have knocked me down with a feather sha |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by butterflyl1on: 11:21am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone: Isaiah 58: 6 - 12 Note that fasting as depicted there IS ALL ABOUT OTHERS. However note verse 7b. Compare that to Ephesians 5:31 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 1 Like |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 11:25am On Feb 27, 2018 |
butterflyl1on:(First bolded) Sex in marriage is totally holy to me, but i believe if God says don't do it while fasting is for a reason which doesn't mean it's a bad thing. And i believe that if God says, don't and you do, in that you transgress. And since you are asking or petitioning Him for something, if you transgress and have sex, you won't have it. (Second bolded) pls explain more. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Mujtahida: 11:30am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone:You are entitled to your beliefs. Please there are very serious practical needs in this world, so many diseases, poverty, problems of international politics, people are in pains, hearts are hurting. Kindly ask the Holy Spirit to tell you what the permanent cure for AIDS is. While at it let me ask I thought the Bible says that the two shall become one. In fact the Bible says that believers are already one with the Lord. So how is it that just because couples want to fasten to God, they have to uncouple from themselves (as in your definition of fasting) when they are one in themselves and one with God already as believers. You even said that they fasten to God as individuals. So what God has joined together, God or man can put momentarily asunder through fasting? Kai, thank God I freed myself from the mesh of religion. You need your religious exceptionalism just so that you can continue to logically believe your faith. It's not that your faith is more valid than others. In reality there's no exception for Christians : they are just like every other men, they suffer what others suffer, they enjoy what others enjoy, they die like other men(ironically even with their notions of everlasting life they are more orless afraid of death as other men) |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 11:30am On Feb 27, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff:I gave names. For just Sex, Onan with Tamar, And, Isaac and Rebecca for love making. So, since having sex in marriage is Holy, you'd say Homosexual couples are engaging in a Holy act? It's marriage, isn't it? |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 11:31am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Mujtahida:I mentioned you in a post pls read it. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 11:32am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Ronpet777:Yes ke. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by butterflyl1on: 11:36am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone: God did not say don't. The language is EXCEPT IT BE WITH CONSENT". paul said "defraud ye not one another except....... " What this means is EVEN WHEN CONSENT ISNT GIVEN OR GOTTEN STILL GO AHEAD AND FAST WHILE HAVING SEX. let me rephrase. He said deny each other sex ONLY WITH CONSENT. this means without consent sex should continue. His focus isn't so much on sex than it is on agreement. Fasting is NOT ABOUT PETITIONING GOD FOR SOMETHING. I have posted Isaiah 58: 6 - 12 to show you what fasting is. Fasting is different from prayer. But we always often put them together when we says FASTING AND PRAYER. Jesus lived his life based on what Isaiah 58 said about fasting. He was all about others and not himself and when you are moved by love in this nature, and you pray, God quickly answers. Fasting is simply TRAINING OURSELVES TO LOVE GOD BY LOVING OTHERS MORE AND MORE. There shouldn't be anything selfish about fasting. It's all shades of selflessness. 1 Like |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Mujtahida: 11:42am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone:Bro, let me leave you to discuss things that pertain to your beliefs. I am not a believer. I will rather argue against the things you write cos my perspective is not framed by the Bible and I'm sure that's not what you want. You sound like a nice guy though. Cheers |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 11:47am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Mujtahida: Yes i am, as you are too. Mujtahida:There are consequences for actions bro, if you eat your cake, you loose it. You can't reject God and do as you like yet expect that everything will just run smoothly. When you sow a seed, when the friuts comes, you'll eat from them. Point is, you won't be the only one eating from the seed you planted. Hosea 8:7 He that sows the Whirlwind shall reap it storms The world rejects God to serve satan abi? Enjoy. Mujtahida:We are to with Him i dividually in slavation. Itst the same thing as saying, Christianity is a personal race. The husband doesn't get saved for the wife. A man and his wife together as a couple can not fuse into God because they are two distinct spirits. They do that seprately. He makes the rules, you either take them or leave. God is not a Democrat. He dictates and you follow or leave. Mujtahida: You have said nothing here. I just told why the Holy Spirit said no sex during Fasting or Fastening, i expected you to dwell on it. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 11:51am On Feb 27, 2018 |
butterflyl1on:The Isa 58 you quoted tells us what Our Father expects us to do physically when we Fasten ourselves into Him.these are the things that will make Him release to us quickly what we are fastening ourselves to Him. When we need something from God, thus, fasten ourselves to Him, we shd do this do that... Is what the Holy Spirit says in Isaiah. Those are the things whixh pleases God. What he is saying is, to get from me, please me first. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 11:52am On Feb 27, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff:Why? |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by MuttleyLaff: 11:53am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone:Homosexual couples are having sex, they aren't making love. There is a difference. Adam knew Eve, as in made love with Eve. Cain knew his wife, as in Cain made love with his wife Adam knew his wife again, made love again with Eve Judah and Omar went into Tamar, both did NOT make love with, but only had sex with her King David and Bathsheba went into each other and weren't necessarily in the real sense, making love Emmanystone:I think after my above up there, you're feeling the drift |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 11:53am On Feb 27, 2018 |
Mujtahida:Then argue against it. No problem with that. We are having a conversation ba? We must not agree. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by butterflyl1on: 12:00pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone: We are saying the same thing. However it is fasting and not fasten. Jesus said, when I was homeless you sheltered me. Naked you clothed me, in prison you visited me......... Whatsoever you do to the least of these ones you do unto me. Like I said, fasting is all shades of selflessness just like God who because he gave us Jesus, how can he not along with Jesus give us all things. We please God by focussing on the people we see. The Bible says "how can you say you love God but hate your brother"? 1st John 4:7 -8 says Beloved let us LOVE ONE ANOTHER, for LOVE IS OF GOD. FOR EVERYONE THAT LOVES IS BORN OF GOD AND KNOWS GOD....... HE THAT DOES NOT LOVE DOES NOT KNOW GOD FOR GOD IS LOVE. Fasting is all about Love for others. 1 Like |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Mujtahida: 12:03pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone: Let tackle where I believe the thought encapsulated in the bolded takes its ultimate rise from: Because Adam sinned all sinned. Isn't that where the bolded comes from? Well, Na your believe. Adam was Adam. I am me. Ezekiel 18 v2-3 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: “‘The parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. So I join my mouth with Jehovah and say don't tell me how I carry the burden and consequences of Adam's sin. It's all a fiction created in a book. And if my deeds or misdeeds have consequences I should be held responsible not those who are affected by it(going by your seed metaphor) We are to with Him i dividually in slavation. Itst the same thing as saying, Christianity is a personal race. The husband doesn't get saved for the wife.. Dictates by dictating to men to write a book, Dictates by speaking through proxies. I bet God is dictating through you now. Surely your God is a dictator cos he even commands men to love him. Something that if a human being does we'd regard them as suffering from one form of mania or the other. If you know the meaning of what you just wrote you will know that you have automatically said that your God is loveless. While love does not mean lawlessness, it also doesn't mean dictatorship. You have said nothing here.You were trying to show that Christian fasting is different. And I am saying how else could it be. Your faith is all about exceptionalism yet you guys are just like other men |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 12:08pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Yes, it says dont. butterflyl1on:Sir, it says to avoid sexual immorality always have sex with each other, but only when you are fasting and praying stay away. The except there means, the only time you do not is when you are fasting and praying butterflyl1on:Yes, deny yourselves sex only when fasting, but that shd be discussed and agreed between bith parties. But if one party refuses, that means no fasting shd be done because, sex fastens and three can't fast as one. If the woman wants to fast, the her husband says no, then no fasting. You can't fast and couple at the same time, as i understand the Holy Spirit butterflyl1on:That is not what fasting is, that is what we shd do for our fasting to be acceptable. You cant fast without prayer, but you can prayer wirhout fasting. butterflyl1on:Exactly. He pleased the Father by being all about others. That is what we shd do for our father to answers us quickly. butterflyl1on: butterflyl1on:Fating is 'Training ourselves to Love God' by loving others. No. Sir Christianity is Training ourselves to.love God by loving others. Not everyone is a Christian, but many non Christians fast. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Emmanystone: 12:13pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Like I said, fasting is all shades of selflessness just like God who because he gave us Jesus, how can he not along with Jesus give us all things. We please God by focussing on the people we see. The Bible says "how can you say you love God but hate your brother"? 1st John 4:7 -8 says Beloved let us LOVE ONE ANOTHER, for LOVE IS OF GOD. FOR EVERYONE THAT LOVES IS BORN OF GOD AND KNOWS GOD....... HE THAT DOES NOT LOVE DOES NOT KNOW GOD FOR GOD IS LOVE. Fasting is all about Love for others. [/quote] butterflyl1on:Well, the Holy Spieit replaced Fasting with Fastening. I never ever associated fasting with tying or fastening two things together until i now. So, am obliged to go with Him. I will reply the others in the evening. I garrogo naw. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by MuttleyLaff: 12:29pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone:I know the feeling, I left home late this morning because of leaving responses on the thread. Even after leaving, had to find a place to park, to continue again responding |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by butterflyl1on: 12:33pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone: The foundation of others who fast is different from our foundation. Also motive matters the most. Others fast because they wish to be seen and known to fast e.g the Muslims who announce theirs for everyone to know and see. When your motive is based on what the scripture says "do not let your left hand know what the right is doing " then this is a solid foundation. Regarding the legal language used by Paul, I do not think you understood the interpretation thereof. Paul said NEVER DENY YOURSELVES SEX AT ALL. THE ONLY TIME YOU SHOULD DO SO IS IN THE FACE OF FASTING BUT EVEN AT THAT, LET IT BE DONE VIA CONSENT. he is not saying do not fast and have sex. He is saying that, this should be the ONLY grounds abstinence should be done and not through hatred, strife, bitterness, etc. This is why the bible says BE ANGRY BUT SIN NOT. LET NOT THE SUN GO DOWN IN YOUR WRATH". Paul meant that you can only deny yourselves sex for the right mutually agreed upon reasons and not out of some selfish reason and fasting is a good reason he gave but even at that, agreement is very important. He implied that it is better to fast and have sex in agreement than to fast and have sex in disagreement or in reverse, it is better not to have sex during fasting BASED ON AGREEMENT. The man and the woman as a married couple are now ONE FLESH so must come to God with ONE heart. This foundation was laid when the bible said we should not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. When we miss this foundation then we open ourselves to all sorts of errors. Agreement is everything. Oneness is everything. 1 Like |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Nobody: 12:53pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone: Aaah Cara Mia nothing can change my love for you, except when you quote dodgy verses. That verse in Corinthians is quite clear, Paul pre-supposes that Sex is good, he also pre-supposes that sex during fasting is not even an issue subject to consent, I agree largely with my good friend butterflylion in his comments , though I disagree slightly with the legal largesse, I believe that the consent to be sought is that both parties “agree not to engage in sex” during a fasting period, other than that- then there should be no reason why either the husband or the wife denies the other, the pleasure of its charms or the nectar of its flower. I would go further and say that the use of the word “consent” is in itself a bit of a red herring since we were dealing with a patriarchy anyway, that consent was merely code for…."if the husband agrees". In reality the woman’s views on the matter were irrelevant. 1 Like |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Nobody: 1:18pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone: I don't think you thought this one through and ascribing your thoughts to the Holy Spirit is rather disingenuous. The reasoning here is flawed and disjointed, you went up a hill and came down a mountain. Like to see what the brethren have to say. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by MuttleyLaff: 1:59pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone: Sarassin:The greek word used in that verse was "sumphonos", it means and is correctly translated as "mutual consent" In reality, all men have the feeling and/urge to immediately roll over and fall to sleep after having sex and/or making love whereas the woman is left wide awake A guy on a fasting and prayer mission might want consider not having sex with his wife because of not wanting to fall asleep after and thereby jeopardise his fasting and prayer mission, but as Paul was asked about, whether it was good for a man not to have sexual relation with a woman, he broadened the answer, to squash and deal with any thought of denying having sex with one another on the basis of being on a fasting and prayer mission. His advice was, you can, note in 1 Corinthians 7:6 it wasn't a command though but is an advice, you can abstain from having sex with other for having a meaningful fasting and prayer mission BUT it has to be on mutual consent. At least if mutually consented, then veering into sexual immorality can't be a defence Sarassin:I wouldn't begrudge her about that. Sometimes you have to grow into what exactly the Holy Spirit is offering for wear Sarassin:That's why I said my sister could have blown me over with a feather |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by FlipGamBino: 2:30pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Sarassin: LMAO!!!!!.... Sarassinnnnnnnnnnnnnn...I have not had a reason to laugh this hard in weeks. But then I don't think this story is complete, I am particularly interested in a detailed narrative as to how she met the Holy Spirit. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Nobody: 3:05pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff:Well, I hardly think rolling over and falling asleep after sexual exertion is the main reason for avoiding the act during fasting, but I defer to your superior knowledge on the matter. MuttleyLaff: Broadly, I concur. Therefore by extension sex between consenting couples during a fasting period cannot be carnal. And yes you are right, that verse was never a command. The point of divergence for me is on the insistence that it must be by consent, here I disagree, Paul's own views on women are ambivalent to say the least and there was never any concept of equality of the sexes in first century Palestine, this idea of a man seeking his wife's consent for sex would be alien, in my view, it was an afterthought. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Nobody: 3:09pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
FlipGamBino: Talk about lighting a fuse. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by FlipGamBino: 3:36pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone: Now the principal reason for fasting is to enter what one can refer to as "A state of Grace", but then; this is but one of many pathways. Now the question is 'what is demanded from he who seeks to enter the "Grace of God"?, one very important requirement is maturity, within all traditions a level of general maturity is required, this includes physical, spiritual and even mental maturity, to this effect a lot of effort is put to focusing ones mind on very little through this period of fasting. Sex is by no means canal within any period of marriage under the edicts of the Divine. As a matter of fact Sex is divine in nature. What matters more is the issue of expedience and within Sarassin's context, consent within this process. Thank you. 1 Like |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by Mujtahida: 3:40pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Emmanystone:The believing brain. Anyway let me respect your wishes and not derail your thread. |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by MuttleyLaff: 3:55pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Sarassin:Now for the matters you wrote about: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman -1 Corinthians 7:1 1 Corinthians 7:1 is the genesis or what originated Paul's advice Someone clever, thought it is a good idea not to have sexual relations with a woman and asked Paul about it. Paul improved the question, by responding that, if at all one wants to not have sexual relations with a woman, then it has to be mutually consented. Why answer the question in this manner, it is because his reply was in the context or background of marriage. Except if tired, women aren't biologically wired up, to want to immediately roll over and fall asleep after having sex. If a man is on a fasting mission and praying session, then as a safety measure, such man might want to stay away from having sex, so not to have interruptions in his focused plan but then, that isn't an excuse to deny your partner their conjugal rights on that basis and without a mutual consent. That is the gist of the matter. Having sex not only induces sleep, it also drains and makes you lighter through losing a few hundred kilograms Sarassin:Dont waste your charm on me Sarassin:If not familiar with Paul's style of writing and idiosyncrasies, then he is often misunderstood and pigeon-holed like you've just done You also toe the afterthought line like budaatum does 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Is Sex In Marriage Carnal? by MuttleyLaff: 3:55pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
FlipGamBino: Sarassin:The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Holy Spirit or how they met the Holy Spirit |
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