shadeyinka:

The beast is figurative BUT the instrument of Satan it represents is Literal.

I'll like you to compare with
Rev 12:3:
"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns , and seven crowns upon his heads."

Now, who is the Dragon?
The Dragon representative Satan: Yes or No?
Is the dragon a Government?

The Dragon is thrown into the lake of Fire: is that Literal or Figurative?
Unfortunately, even if you treat the lake of FIRE as figurative, it means a place of Great Torment. It's a lake because it is stagnant (no way of escape) and made of fire (a means of torment).

Of course fire needs oxygen to burn and it doesn't form lakes. This means that this thing feel and burn like fire. Even satan the dragon who is a spirit is burned by this fire. If you ask me, it's more ferocious than Physical Fire

I do not think that the Beast with 7 heads OR the Beast with two Heads represent Government? The Beast presides over Governments. And like satan, the beast is a personality!

The Beast represent Someone who controls/rules over Governments. It's this person who makes war against the Saints and overcome them.

As an example:
During the WW2, there is a difference between Germany and Adolf Hitler. Hitler is dead now but Germany is still alive. Hitler presided over Germany

shadeyinka:

I wish I can explain why the Scripture put it in form of "for now I know that...".

Freewill isn't freewill if it is shielded from temptation!
Did God know that Job will pass the test of satan?

I am afraid, if God isn't Omniscient, then how can He be Almighty?

Is God not the Alpha and the Omega?
It means He is the Beginning and the End. God sees the Beginning as He sees the End. God is Not going to become the End, He is the End.

However, whenever a Scripture is to be understood, we have to look at the harmony of the total Scriptures eg.

Isa 42:9:
"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them."

Isa 44:6-8:
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them show unto them. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

God says He alone know and declare the future (things that are coming)

Isa 46:9-10:
"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

This means God know the end from the beginning!

1Pet 1:1-2:
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

This Scripture is saying the elect have been foreknown!


So, the conclusion:
You choose to believe that your God isn't Omniscient
I choose to believe that my God is Omniscient.

Maximus69:

I WANT TO GO AND INSPECT IF WHAT I HEARD about Sodom and Gomorrah IS TRUE! Genesis 18:21
FOR NOW I KNOW! Genesis 22:12

Hmmm he truly knows everything for real!
Well you might not accept the truth but what God meant by knowing the end from the beginning connote the SURETY of his own program! Isaiah 55:9-11
He simply means THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN HINDER HIS GOOD PLANS unlike humans who only propose without the ability to dispose! Psalm 146:3-5
So God's thought or plans can never be erased, it will surely take place just as he purposed it to be.
It is only when he decides to do what is not in line with his plans but according to our wickedness that his thoughts could be erased because of his holy name! Numbers 14:11-24 Psalms 23:3
If he knows everything FROM THE BEGINNING, did he also know that he will get enraged and Moses [his earthly creature] will speak to change his mind?
Humble yourself and go back to study more with God's people!

Barristter07:


The death am reffering and which the angel talkd about is Physical death or Adamic Death . and that's the focus of my quote.

Here it is again :
" Why are you looking for the living one AMONG the dead " an angel ask @ Luke 24:5.
Exposing your hypothesis.


You can't be physically dead and alive. That's the point above! Its Either living or dead ,

Barristter07:


Okay, let's see



Direct contradiction to shadeyinka . he maintained there is a difference but you maintained they are all born again.]

Barristter07:

Your position was that once a person believed in Jesus, they become born again , and a born again have the hope of going to heaven .

But Jesus himself said a person who is to he born again must be born of water and spirit NOT Just believe.

Can u explain what this means ? Is Moses, John the baptist and David Baptized in Water ?

Regarding been born by spirit. He explained this at John 3:8 as something an individual didnt choose or desire for himself ?.
How do u reconcile this with your ordinary faith stand ?


To test your stand: Why was the thief on Jesus side promised Paradise and NOT Heaven despite he believed in Jesus ?

alBHAGDADI:
I don't know what you mean by the difference you say he spoke of, but one thing is for certain, one cannot have eternal life except by being born again which is the same as having faith in God .


Alm th prophets had faith in God and that counted for righteousness. If we today have faith I God and are counted as righteous, then nothing differentiates is from them. God who operated today operated then and with the same method, which is salvation is by faith alone, not by works.



Don't confuse yourself. Being born again is nothing physical but spiritual. It is God who gives birth to us, not by ourselves. Baptism is a show of faith but not what shows you are born again. JW get baptized but they dont believe in being born again as the Buble says because they don't believe they are going to the kingdom of God except some 144,000.

The Bible says once you believe, you receive the Holy Spirit. Baptism only follows and not compulsory. But you have mistaken it to mean that If one doesn't get baptized , he cannot see the kingdom of God. This is to say John the Baptist was also part of the salvation process. This is wrong.

Below is an excerpt from a website that explains your misunderstanding of the term BORN OF WATER...



Nicodemus had no glue what Jesus was talking about. He thought Jesus was talking about being born twice physically, being physically born a second time.

Different views…

(1). John’s baptism .
Jesus nowhere makes John’s baptism a requirement for salvation. John’s baptism was preparing them for the Messiah.

(2). Christian baptism.
Some say water baptism but this would be meaningless to Nicodemus before the church was even born at Pentecost. Water baptism is not a condition for salvation nor was it instituted at this time.

(3). Human birth.
Some say “water” refers to the amniotic fluid of human birth. One has to be born physically before he could be spiritually born (note it is water and spirit).

(4). Regeneration by the Spirit or the cleansing by the Spirit through the Word of God ( Ezek. 36:25-26 ).

Ezekiel 36:25-26 – Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances.

I want to give 4 reasons that it is probably the latter view…

1. Titus 3:5 – Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; water is not baptism or physical birth.

2. Eph. 5:26 – To make her holy, cleansing her with the washing of water by the word.


As seen above, Born of Water is not baptism of water but washing by spiritual waters which washes away sins.

Being born again has nothing to do with the physical because it is entirely a spiritual thing. The water and the spiritual are spiritual effects.


1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV)
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Barristter07:


The Bible itself specifically identify Satan as the dragon. So that's not the issue here

Barristter07:

Its either physical fire or spiritual

Actually , A Spirit can't be harmed by physical fire. Take a clue from what happened during Nebuchadnezzar regime when a Spirit appeared In a ferocious fire.

Barristter07:

That's a wrong analogy because Hitler only ruled Germany not even the earth .
Who is that someone then ?

JMAN05:


If the water refers to the word of God, on what basis were Jesus disciples baptizing new believers with water? Why use water in the first place and not just the word?

shadeyinka:


There are two major beasts spoken about in Revelation.
1. The beast with seven Heads
"Rev 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

2. The beast with Two Heads
Rev 13:11: "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

Satan himself is the Dragon who gave powers to the beasts

Rev 13:4:
"And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast : and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"


The two beasts aren't literal. They are figurative expression of Satan ruling over the Governments of this world through his instruments .

The most solemn warning in the Bible is given to people who worship the beast.

“If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.” Revelation 14:9,10


It seems that the second beast with two heads is also referred to as the False Prophet

Rev 16:13: "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

Rev 19:20: "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Rev 20:10: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"

shadeyinka:

It still doesn't stop you answering my question.

It is when that question is answered that we can understand each other. Otherwise, we shall be using the same words but mean Different things.

How many kinds of Death is spoken in the Scriptures?

Barristter07:



@ highlighted, it's better you do or else your position that God knows the freewill someone will exercise is UNTRUSTED and UNSCRIPTURAL

That further questions your stand to Maximus69 that he knew Adam and Eve would sin .

Jozzy4:


Come out clearly, Now that we know the beasts are not literal, lead the way ... Who does this beast represent ? Its important to know

shadeyinka:

I couldn't help but laugh on this.

Let's look at two similar sets of Scriptures together.

First Scripture:

Rev 12:3,9:
"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon , having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on his heads. … And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

BIBLE INTERPRETATION:
Dragon= Satan (a personality)
MY INTERPRETATION:
Dragon = Satan (Personality)
JW's INTERPRETATION
Dragon = Satan


Second Scriptures
Rev 13:1: "And I stood on the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns , and on his horns ten crowns, and on its."heads the name of blasphemy."

BIBLE INTERPRETATION:
Beast= No direct interpretation
MY INTERPRETATION:
Beast = A Personality (Instrument of Satan)
JW's INTERPRETATION
Beast = Government

Can you see how similar/dissimilar your interpretation is!!

Jozzy4:


I like that point he made on physical death. U should have challenged that.

I know two, physical and spiritual death. But what Barrister07 said on both is still correct.

You can't be spiritually alive and dead at the same time

You can't also be physically dead and alive at the the same time.

shadeyinka:

It still doesn't stop you answering my question.

It is when that question is answered that we can understand each other. Otherwise, we shall be using the same words but mean Different things.

How many kinds of Death is spoken in the Scriptures?

shadeyinka:

Do you think God acted in wisdom by putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden? What was the purpose of that tree?

Remember,

Gen 1:12:
"And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

shadeyinka:
@ Jozzy4 , Barristter07 , JMAN05 , TATIME , Janosky

Jesus says unless a person is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. To be born again means to be Baptized in the Holy Spirit or have the seal (mark) of the Holy Spirit. Since you claim not to have the Holy Spirit with the exception of the 144,000,

1.Can you show me from the Scriptures where only 144,000 people are said to be born again?
2. Can you also show from the Scriptures that only 144,000 will be in heaven?

If you aren't born again, I fear for your eternity.

shadeyinka:

I couldn't help but laugh on this.

Let's look at two similar sets of Scriptures together.

First Scripture:

Rev 12:3,9:
"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon , having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on his heads. … And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

BIBLE INTERPRETATION:
Dragon= Satan (a personality)
MY INTERPRETATION:
Dragon = Satan (Personality)
JW's INTERPRETATION
Dragon = Satan


Second Scriptures
Rev 13:1: "And I stood on the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads the name of blasphemy."

BIBLE INTERPRETATION:
Beast= No direct interpretation
MY INTERPRETATION:
Beast = A Personality (Instrument of Satan)
JW's INTERPRETATION
Beast = Government

Can you see how similar/dissimilar your interpretation is!!

This fire is even worse. It's s lake of fire. And it doesn't use petrol or kerosine to burn. It is stagnant meaning No escape!

If you are worried if the fire is Physical or not compare Balaam and the Spiritual sword carried by the angel. Count the Angels sword have killed Balaam?

My God can even reverse the situations. If Physical fire wouldn't burn Physical human beings by the decree of God, how much more if God allows fire to burn a spirit.

Of course, the fire only burns hard but it isn't Physical.

Hitler would have been described as a beast with one head and one crown. Hitler is not the beast.

shadeyinka:


No one gets born again by a "personal decision" but by depending on the INTEGRITY OF GOD.

It is a gift of God:
Eph 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

The Question is do you want this gift?

Permit me to quote a long passage:

Luk 13:23-29
: "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?
And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God."

The key word I want you to see is the word Strive. Who is to strive to enter the kingdom of God?



1Pet 1:18-23:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold , from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."
The question is who was Peter addressing? Was it the church of Christ or the 144,000?



John 3:15-16:
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

God gives the gift BUT man has the duty of TRUSTING/BELIEVING the WORD of God.

We are not saved by prayers; the bible didn't teach that. We are saved through our FAITH.

Eph 2:8-9
: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Our faith is only expressed through the confessions of our mouths to God.

Rom 10:10-11:
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

In the confession of our mouths we ASK for the Seal of the Holy Spirit.

Luk 11:13: "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"



Let me start with a Scripture:
John 16:7:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
But hasn't the Holy Spirit at work up till that time He came after the death of Christ?

The Difference is this:
Those who are Born again are SEALED by/with the Holy Spirit while before Christ, the Holy Spirit comes UPON them to empower them.

2Cor 1:22
: "Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Eph 1:13:
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,"

Eph 4:30: "
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit comes upon a select few to perform some function for Him
Num 11:29: "And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon [/b]them!"

[b]Num 24:2: "And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him."

Judg 14:19: "And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house."

Barristter07:


When did similarity becomes the basis of a good interpretation, ? . Beast representing Government and Kingdoms has a solid scriptural basis. Check the book of Daniel

But don't forget why am asking this , provide that personality it represent ?


So funny, you and all this theories. That was how you theorize the other time on Freewill

Not physical , Is it Spiritual ?



Then who ?

we need to identify this , to know where Satan will be or his condition

TATIME:
God's WORD Jesus actually said 'you must be born again before you can SEE the kingdom of God' John 3:3
So literally we can say only the born agains can SEE the kingdom of God. But when it comes to Jesus' words, we need to meditate thoroughly to fully grasp everything he said!
For instance he called the Pharisees [ in whose group Nicodemus is a prominent member] "blind guides" Matthew 15:14,23:16,23:24
Plrease can we now conclude that Nicodemus and other members of his group were literally blind so that they lack the ability to SEE? :

Barristter07:


Go back and explain what it means when God said " For now I KNOW" . it destroys your theory of God knowing the freewill a person will exercise.

Concerning the tree, its Wisdom . Freewill can only be exercised where there are multiple choices

Barristter07:


@ exactly 1:12pm on May 17 , you made the below post which I responded to


" Just imagine after death to discover that you are still alive. Maybe then you will remember how you have been misled! " - Shadeyinka

Which death were you talking about in this Post ?

After your response , let's see if its the same death described at Luke 24:5 .

shadeyinka:

After your physical death to discover that you are still very much conscious of yourself (alive).

But then answer my questions!

shadeyinka:

Before you run off at tangent as usual.

Look at a similar interpretation from Daniel

Dan 2:36-38: "This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. You, O king, are a king of kings: for the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wherever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven has he given into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all. You are this head of gold."


If Nebuchadnezzar is a Personality AND he is the head of Gold, consistent with the interpretation of the Beast as a Personality (like Nebuchadnezzar) how come you insist that the beast is a Government?

On Fire:
You are the one insisting on whether it is physical or Spiritual. All we know is that it is called the "Lake of Fire" figuratively a "Prison of Torment".


Figuratively, what do you think the Lake of Fire symbolises?

Then who?
The bible didn't say, did it?

shadeyinka:

I have answered your question. So please be kind to answer mine!

Modified:
If everything God created was good, what was the purpose of the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil?

Barristter07:


When did similarity becomes the basis of a good interpretation, ? . Beast representing Government and Kingdoms has a solid scriptural basis. Check the book of Daniel

But don't forget why am asking this , provide that personality it represent ?


So funny, you and all this theories. That was how you theorize the other time on Freewill

Not physical , Is it Spiritual ?



Then who ?

we need to identify this , to know where Satan will be or his condition

Barristter07:


That question contradicts John 3:8 , You don't direct the wind!!! Or say I want wind to come over here .

Barristter07:

@highlight. Eternal life is not the issue here . Why? Been born again is becoming heirs with Jesus in heaven .

Barristter07:

But Some righteous people will live forever on Earth - Psalm 37:29 . this hope every Jew regard as Paradise. This same hope Jesus held out to the theif at his side .

They also have eternal life as evidenced by " Living forever "

Barristter07:

Either sealed or come upon, They Have the holy spirit! . This highlight my point that having holy spirit in whatever form doesn't justify that a person is born again.

shadeyinka:

See how conveniently you side-stepped my questions.

Barristter07:


Since the reference was to physical death.

@ Luke 24:5 , don't look for the living among the dead . stark contrast between living and dead .

The above was also a reference to physical death, does that not destroy your theory that a person can be physically alive and dead same time ?

alBHAGDADI:


You are getting things wrongly.

No one is saying it is wrong to wear shoes or not to do so. What we are saying is that it is wrong to insist for one to do or not to do so. They are wrong for insisting and you are wrong for saying it is wrong not to wear shoes during worship. But of you are wrong.

As for Daddy GO. Your problem is that you think everyone who is not a JW must be under some Daddy GO.

I am under the word of God, not under a daddy GO. You are under Daddy Governing Body.

alBHAGDADI:


Do you know what your problem is? You don't know that you are actually in the same boat as most of the names and denomination you wrote up there.

When Shadeyinka was telling you that despite him attending ECWA, it does mean he has a denomination. He only attends ECWA because they hold the same believe as his. And what is that believe? It is saved by Grace only aka Once Saved Always Saved. This means that if he goes to Togo tomorrow and he can't find an ECWA branch, he will simply look for a church that holds the same Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.

That doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved is the central gospel of Jesus Christ. Any church or gathering that claims to be Christian but doesnt hold that doctrine is not Christian at all but false people. Such false people believe in work based Salvation instead of the salvation from Jesus Christ alone.

Now, who are those who belong to the work based salvation group? They include many of the names you mentioned above. Glaringly, Jehovah's witnesses organization, in as much as they love to claim they are different, they also belong to that group that believes in work based salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

As seen above, the Bible says we are saved by Grace not of works and not of ourselves. Yet the Jehovah's False Witnesses and these other denominations say otherwise.

Below is an excerpt from JW.org which says a person can lose his salvation.

[I]Can you lose out on salvation?

Yes. Just as a person saved from drowning could fall or jump back into the water, a person who has been saved from sin but fails to keep exercising faith could lose out on salvation. For this reason, the Bible urges Christians who have received salvation “to put up a hard fight for the faith.” (Jude 3 ) It also warns those who have been saved: “Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”​— Philippians 2:​12 .[/I]

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-salvation/


As seen clearly, your foundational doctrine says Jesus Christ is not enough to save a man. Same thing is what most other denominations say. This makes you brothers with them, whether you like it or not. But for me and Shadeyinka, we might attend different denominations, but we are brothers because we believe in the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. We believe we are not saved by works by by the Grace of God and we believe we can never lose our salvation. That's why we can fellowship together because we carry the same spirit. Yes, we can sometimes be wrong and differ in certain doctrines, but never the most important doctrine which is salvation by grace alone through faith, not of works. Any man that claims s to be 100% right on all doctrines is a liar. But that doesn't mean we should be wrong on the doctrine of salvation.

So you see, you are brothers with Adeboye, Oyedepo etc because you preach the same thing, while I and all Once Saved Always Saved doctrine preachers are brothers.