@ Kay17
I agree 100% that some people's practice of religion (not just Christianity) fits well into your description. They are 'blind', confused and need help. But it is not new: remember that Jesus acknowledged the 'lost', 'blind', people described as seeds sown on rocks, sown among thorns etc. And should the leader of any denomination be 'blind', He/She raises an army of 'blinder' followers who agressively defend their "faith". It is a sad reality.

Lead us not into temptation...

Man in synch with the creative God

"...Deliver us from all evil..."

I guess we share some agreement since you didn't criticize my position.

Your first sentence is a fallacy of generalisation because even if there are such people (it cannot be proved that the set is exclusive to theism), not all theists belong there. All religions have a lot of truly satisfied people as members. If people need to be loved, then they must get it from those who are rich in love. So even by your stance, there are satisfied theists.

God, for theists, is manifest in all creation but bigger than creation. So, for them, experiencing love from other people or circumstances is still love from God. In Christianity for example, showing love to others is the central theme.

Davien
i have been as honest as anyone can. when you read all the responses of other 'atheists' here, you will see i am very correct. apparently, just like in other religions, atheism has denominations too.

Are people really possessed? Possessed by what? Religion tends to group everything it does not understand along a line of thought under a broad subject. Many deliverance sessions are not exactly real. I have read about many people who “receive healings” from mega-televangelists or pastors but who got worse and sometimes gave up in the process. Many Christians brand those who do not agree with them as possessed even when the accusers do not understand what they defend.

A story
I came back from Texas sometime and drove to see a friend’s mum with the goodies he sent. She greeted me with tears (without even asking after his son) and a bucket load of complaints about the possessed 14 year old boy, Samuel, she stays with. Previously she had arranged for him to be delivered in three different churches at different times but to no avail. He has a strong “winch”, according to her. Then I was expected to ‘beat him well well’ on her behalf.

So what is the problem?
“He is very stubborn”. Samuel joined her since he was 9 years old but even after 5 years he was still not tops with house chores. Every day came with similar challenges. Of course the boy disagreed. I inspected the washed plates and got the pictures clearly. They are both right.

Redefinition of washing
The kid had no intention of being stubborn and no motive to be disobedient. Mama understandably does not want mechanised equipment. I took the boy to the kitchen and redefined washing for him, practically. To wash plates is not rubbing soapy sponge on an item one intends to wash. Washing means to remove all the stains anyhow you can. Soap and sponge only helps to achieve the result. I redefined a few other tasks and he got the picture (smart lad).

It’s a miracle!
About a week later, my friend in Texas called.
“’Sup bro. What did you do at mama’s house”
“Like what?”, I asked. “Anything the matter?”
“She said you must be a pastor, that the change in Samuel was unprecedented. And that you neither beat nor prayed with him”. I laughed.

Deliverance is knowledge
Samuel was delivered by equipping him with knowledge. Jesus said, “that men shall know the truth and the truth will set them free”. Most times, people only need to understand for them to change. The task should be to appropriately communicate the reasons for change. There is a difference between telling people things and communicating to them. The only test for communication is that the intended idea is well understood.

@ Davien
You want to drop this line of questioning. The idea of a fora like this should be to educate. Arguments don't change people.

@Hiswordxray
Same goes for you bro. Jesus said no one cometh to Him except the Father bringeth him. You could say what u believe but you won't be able to force it down.

Thanks guys for stopping the unhealthy exchanges

Father is ...

I'm afraid this thread has been hijacked by people who are doing exactly what I hoped to avoid. It's supposed to be a mingling of ideas where confidence in what one believes and the maturity to co-exist (tolerance) peacefully allows/disallows mutual philosophical fermentation. No one is supposed to win here.

#NEVERFIGHTFORGOD

Is a worm a more complex entity than an amoeba? Is a man more compex than a worm?

@ johnydon22

If you read all I have posted on this thread, u will see that I do not preach that u accept religion. I uphold that religion has no business attacking atheism. Nothing wrong with seeing God in those wonderful people either.

@ urheme
Forget what uninformed theists say. Nothing wrong with free thinking. Just think a little deeper and you'd be surprised.

@davidhume1
Ok. I won't associate atheism with a belief. But the some total of what u agree with, is what theists believe, provided you remove the cloak of personality traits associated with God (which, in my opinion, simply helps religion teach and relate with the complex abstraction that atheism often encounters)

So who should we call father?

Yes of course I group them because every position has a belief. In your case, atheism, believes there is no God.

Nothing I wrote is a lie. Neither have I preached any religion. The thread represent a novel perspective. You seem bent on attacking just parts without due consideration to the whole.

Teach yours the way you understand it.

reactions

reactions are welcome

reactions are welcome

reactions are welcome

Jesus walked on water. And so does man today. Tonnes of metal (not just floating logs) bearing tones of load sit atop waters (lakes, seas and oceans) around the world. Jesus healed the sick. Humans, in numbers, with all manners of sicknesses get relief in our hospitals today. The blind saw? River blindness, for example, is treatable today. Artificial eyes, limbs, organs, are used today, and perfection is in the pipeline. Tonnes in weight criss-cross the skies every single day. Today we talk to people thousands of miles away whenever we want. We watch live events, almost to the second, of things happening anywhere on the globe. And there are millions of such miracles (small and mighty) that science and technology have permitted.

Anti religion?
Does religion have issues with these modern miracles? No, of course. Remember Jesus said, “verily, verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do . . .” (John 14: 12, KJV). That’s why we pay to experience these miracles when we buy electronic devices; services from medical advancements; live or work in architectural wonders; use loudspeakers, microphones and projectors in religious centers; and the many other provisions of science and technology.

Any doubts
Do I intend to lead people away from Jesus? No. On the contrary, I will to lead people to him via truth. Jesus said, “I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE...”. When man seeks a WAY out of a problem or towards a certain goal, or Heaven if you choose, he will find the TRUTH and this TRUTH will give him life (wholesome satisfying results). Again Jesus said that “… men shall know the truth and the truth will set them free”. Jesus also said that we should seek to find since all who seek must find ( Mathew, 7: 7 – . Science only seeks to know the truth and then uses the knowledge to set man free from his numerous natural and imposed limitations – “my people suffer for lack of knowledge”.

Are they really miracles?
We can answer this by comparative assessment. Imagine what a man who lived 500 years ago (let me not go to 2000 years) would think if he were teleported (moved forward) to this millennium. He knew of birds flying. Today he will see ‘birds’ (planes and rockets) bigger than buildings, carrying hundreds of men from place to place. Common diseases that killed then are easily managed today. Preventive therapy keeps some diseases out completely. He will remember that moving from Egypt to the Promised Land was to take 40 days (I’m not so sure again). Today, a Ferari will do it in minutes. Jesus converted water into a beautiful wine. Today, thousands of wonderful bottles of premium wine (both alcoholic and otherwise) that will blow the wedding chairman away with pleasure are being produced by the minute. God created a miracle in man. And man has not disappointed in keeping the tradition. To ask why we cannot do it like the Lord Jesus did is like asking why Jesus did not make a phone call for his donkey to be sent to him. Everything is in its place.

The future
And tomorrow? The possibilities are endless. For example, todays transportation will be snail speed compared to the next 200 years. Then, one will enter a chamber in Lagos, press the codes for New York city and he will appear in another chamber located in New York at the speed of light. Good bye to Airplanes. There are thousands of universities, research institutions and laboratories around the world where new truths are being discovered to be tested and put to use for the benefit of humankind.

To God be all glory.

@ davien

I really think we agree. Or better put, I agree with you 100%. My write-up addresses the perception that atheism (and indeed all the other –isms) antogonize religion. Religion, atheism, pantheism, monotheism, polytheism, science and the likes, all represent the numerous ways man seeks for meaning and purpose in creation. If we forget the nomenclatures used by the different lines of thought in this pursuit and remove the ‘cloaks’ with which they respectively dress their present understanding, it will all be the same essence, at different levels.

Please read my response to Plaetton above. Whatever school of thought you represent, there has got to be a name you call things - both what understand and what u are yet to understand. Attempt explaining your analysis of my write-up to a 15 year old or to an illiterate adult. If you don’t take time, you will create another religion for them.
So I quite agree with you.

I agree with you

Prayer changes

Yeah and that includes boyfriend, girl friend, fiance, fiancee ...

...Yeah and that includes boyfriend, girl friend, fiance, fiancee ...

I have read stories about young girls who were sexually abused by their fathers. There are fathers who ‘leave’ their sons to figure out their way through life on their own. What of a 13 year old boy in the US who has never met his biological father his whole life? The father even avoided the boy at a ceremony where the boy had expected a happy, emotional first meeting. The boy said he threw a solid punch at him out of frustration. Fathers?

So who is a Father?
We really need to differentiate between a biological father and the fatherhood that actually merits the title. A father is supposed to be that man who guides and helps one through the many challenges of life on beautiful earth as one pursues meanings and goals. Specific roles will include protection, training, information, and preparations for what the future holds etc.

If a man fails while trying to do these things, we’ll understand. If he makes mistakes while trying to do these things, he should be forgiven. But if he does not play the role, he shouldn’t be accorded the exulted title of father, or dad. He’s just Mr. name.

Called a father.
There are many examples of such people who could but never tried being dad. They may or may not have been physically abusive. They expect to be called father just because they injected a biological matter into a woman in the course of enjoying themselves. There is supposed to be a flawless transition between the injection of sper.m and the assumption of the responsibility of fatherhood when the result materializes (whether married or not). This transition is assumed when those who injected the sper.m are usually referred to as fathers by society. Most times they never fail to remind theirs children of the responsibilities owed to them as if the child asked to be favoured by being born.

Changing with the times
Of course this isn’t limited to fatherhood. The world has taken a few positive steps forward and we need to respond to change. All relationships have a role to play and people should play the part for them to be accorded the dignity of titles such as father, mother, brother, sister, friend etc.

A lovely woman in India carried her lovely daughter’s zygote/embryo (fertilized egg) to term (7months in her case) since her daughter medically couldn’t. Who is the child’s mother? So carrying the pregnancy (surrogacy) no longer qualifies motherhood. It is the role played in the life of the child. Same for adopted parents, or those who have legally adopted children for themselves; they are proud parents, by being loving and caring towards them.

So?
So be a father, mother, brother, sister, husband, wife or child by playing the role.
Biology isn’t what establishes the title.

@ Plaetton


My position is that different people have the freedom to perceive and experience That Thing as they can. So what would u rather call It? From your response I see words like Wonders, Mystery and PROCESS. Is Mysterious PROCESS of Wonders good enough? ICE, water and steam are different states of the same thing. One isn’t wrong to say H2O is solid, liquid or gaseous. If anything, we merely understand the physical state the person met it in.
Religion appoints a super, super, human attribute for that Being. Maybe it makes it easier to explain and relate with much the same way one would break a complex event down for a kid using what the kid has experienced already. Science sees it in laws that span many disciplines because scientists can comprehend abstraction. But the very ‘nature’ and essence of this Mysterious PROCESS of Wonder remains the same.

People fail to see the common ground because they are busy defending their positions and pointing fingers - the hallmark of religion.

@ stuff46

Thanks

Change how you pray

Regardless of Religion, anyone can decide to be kind, loving and godly.

@ Alexpissu

That applies too

Ok what? Lol