ijawkid:

I just found out that only if you are humble would you discard the trinity dogma........it has eaten so deep in you that you've chosen to twist a clear scripture to support the trinity......

Paul said there is only one GOD the father,you are saying because Jesus was called the 1 Lord,then that makes him part of the 1 God the apostle paul was talking about......

Seriously anony you need to throw away pride to accept the truth........

______________________________

You are in effect telling us that the isrealites including Jesus worshipped a 1 GOD that is made up of 3 persons.......smh!!!!!....

Twisting deuteronomy 6:4 to allign with the trinity is so surprising..I'm shocked bro......!!!!!!

Even Jesus acknowledged that we have and share 1 God who is the Father(john 20:17),but you anony is saying the opposite............

My friend, you guys read the bible with an "anti-trinity" bias so even where there are clear scripture showing us that Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God, you heartily ignore them so I will tell you the same thing I have told Barrister. Please define God. Lay out His attributes. Point out out those things that only God can possess and if Christ does not possess them, we can conveniently drop the whole "trinity" issue.

@Mr Anony

Perhaps this might be the best way for us to understand what is meant by Trinity is to ask you to define God. Who is God?

Is He omniscient?
Is He omnipresent?
Is He omnipotent?
Can you show me these 3 words in the bible? I am sure you can't because they simply are not in the bible however we read verses that confirm these attributes of God.

I can show you verses that show that the Son can be at more than one place at a time like the Father (omnipresence),
I can show you verses of the Son reading people's minds i.e. they couldn't hide their thoughts from Him like the Father (Omniscience),
I can show you the Son assuring us that He will do anything we ask for in faith(omnipotence)

bolded above is where confusion sets in, they are not bible concepts! and since it is not defined in the bible,but rather different interpretations culminate in the concept, i cannot give you my mandate on this because its not defined in the bible, but we know God to the extext described in the bible as the most powerful and abundance of knowledge ,how powerful he is,rests within the bible context, maybe he is all powerful? or all knowing should not be our inflated imaginations!
Mr Anony

The Son was uncreated and existed from the beginning [/b]with the Father (The Son is also eternal)

you lied!

Proverbs 8:22-24
(NIV)
22 “The Lord [b]brought me forth as the first of his works,[a]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,

''The Lord [b]brought me forth'' ''I was formed'' ''I was given birth'' i was created by the LORD


prov 8:22 king james ver.

I was 'possesed'

using the original hebrew/greek translation H7069=Create
H7069

קנה

qânâh

kaw-naw'

A primitive root; to {erect} that {is} create

New International Version
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
New Living Translation )
"The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.

English Standard Version
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.

New American Standard Bible
"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The LORD[b] made me[/b] at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago.

International Standard Version
"The LORD[b] made me[/b] as he began his planning, before his ancient activity commenced.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The LORD possessed [/b]me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Lord Jehovah [b]created me [/b]at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.”

God proposed to make jesus 'my firstborn'

Psalm 89:27
King James Bible

Also [b]I will make him [b]my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth[/b].

The Son accepted worship to Himself (Mind you this is something no angel would dare to do)

he was granted by the father to receive worship! phil 2:6-9
and His father is exempted!

Mr Anony

I will tell you the same thing I have told Barrister. Please define God. Lay out His attributes. Point out out those things that only God can possess and if Christ does not possess them, we can conveniently drop the whole "trinity" issue.

i was compiling my reply when i saw a replica of my reply to that questions you ask,beautiful answers, so i concur,in otherwords,accept 'todaynatoday' post as part of my contribution to your question i have continued from the objection you raise to 'todaynatoday' post, ok?

Some on this forum want us to perform the art of mental gymnastics to merge 3 persons into 1 person , something which defies all logic.

Go to YouTube and watch videos on the Trinity and see how Christians are bringing mockery to Christianity by trying so hard to explain the Trinity using all sorts of mathematical formulas, symbols, scientific theories and all manner of quite honestly nonsense , almost forcing us to accept this most strange notion.

Some example comments below on the following Video :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUy-H5MmeGU


blicksflicks 2 weeks ago
The guy in this video says God can't be a spirit. However, the Bible says God is a spirit. "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). lol


sheeshyall100 14 hours ago
The Almighty God of Israel was, is, and forever shall be, one. There was no God formed before him, neither shall there be after him (Isaiah 44:8 ). He is the only saviour (Isaiah 43:11). He created heaven and earth by himself (Isaiah 44:24, Genesis 1:1, John 1:1-3, 10-14). He has sworn that every knee shall bow to him (Isaiah 45:23, Philippians 2:10), and he will not give his glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11).
Christ is not God, but in him dwelleth God(Colossians 2:9).


BK Roy 2 days ago
that's all great and all, but you are failing to explore the fact that
1. It is unbiblical: It is not in the scriptures. Actually, the OT and NT both refute any claims to the trinity. John 5:7 was a blatant and evil plot to include the doctrine, but even Christians saw it which is why all bibles throw out the trinity from that verse.
2. It is historically pagan, i.e. it existed in Roman circles (same Romans who later declared Christianity the new religion) and is not actually REAL christian.

Xeonxtreme 1 day ago
Again your video is base upon philosophies of men, instead of scriptures. Have you not read "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" PLEASE no more wisdom of men, use the scriptures to explain other scriptures. The wisdom/philosophy of mankind is useless rubbish.

Samkablawi 2 weeks ago
Dude if god is a trinity or whatever. Why is it nowhere to be found in the bible If it is that important then surely god will put it in the bible And you better not quote John 5:7 as that was thrown out by YOUR Christian scholars as a fabrication. You start talking like god has to take up space 3d or something Wth?


Don May 2 weeks ago
if the father n son are co-equal why did jesus pray to the father does god pray to god . if the son is eternal n existed at creation who was his mother at that time gal 4-4.is jesus in the godhead or is the godhead in jesus the latter col 2.9. who raised jesus from the dead the father eph 1.20 or jesus john 2:19-26 or the spirit roman 8-11. if the spirit proceed from the father is he also a son of the father if not why not. can some one help me

Mr_Anony:
The verses provided by y'all are all true, yes but my contention is that you are interpreting it based on what you already want it to say rather than what it is saying.

Why interprete something that needs no further interpretation. God is one, only by twisting scriptures would you interprete one as "three-in-one".

Actually, the Holy Spirit is not such a being that throws away logic. The bible is a very logical book. Without logic, the reading would be meaningless. Resurrection is very logical because if God can do all things, then raising Christ from the dead is not a big deal. It logically follows. Same with Trinity. God is by nature a multi-personal being.

To an ordinary human, many things in the bible defy logic. Only by the leading of the Holy Spirit can you get true understanding of the scriptures. And God is one not a multi-personal being.

It is interesting you should bring that up and define God as love because love is something that can only exist in relationships between persons. Now consider this:

If you say that God is love, then who was He loving before creation? Himself? Or did He only start loving after He had created?

If God started loving only after creation, then it would mean that God's love couldn't possibly be perfect because He would have to grow in love. If this is true, then it would be inaccurate to say that God is love.

I'll leave you to ponder this.

God is, was and will always be love. God never changes. Creation of the universe, heavenly beings, man etcetara etcetara was borne out of love.

Mr_Anony:
My friend, you guys read the bible with an "anti-trinity" bias so even where there are clear scripture showing us that Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God, you heartily ignore them so I will tell you the same thing I have told Barrister. Please define God. Lay out His attributes. Point out out those things that only God can possess and if Christ does not possess them, we can conveniently drop the whole "trinity" issue.

Lol..........God is all Good ..........

Prove to me Jesus is all GOOD just like the Father.......that's just a definition of GOD........

also GOD cannot die...........did Jesus die??....

Mr_Anony:
Perhaps this might be the best way for us to understand what is meant by Trinity is to ask you to define God. Who is God?
Is He omniscient?
Is He omnipresent?
Is He omnipotent?
Can you show me these 3 words in the bible? I am sure you can't because they simply are not in the bible however we read verses that confirm these attributes of God.

I can show you verses that show that the Son can be at more than one place at a time like the Father (omnipresence),
I can show you verses of the Son reading people's minds i.e. they couldn't hide their thoughts from Him like the Father (Omniscience),
I can show you the Son assuring us that He will do anything we ask for in faith(omnipotence)
The Son was uncreated and existed from the beginning with the Father (The Son is also eternal)
The Son accepted worship to Himself (Mind you this is something no angel would dare to do)

I am sorry but the Scriptures disagree with you. Let us take these attributes one after the other:
1. OMNIPOTENT:
Jesus is not omnipotent. He has been GIVEN a lot of power by his father. But the Bible is quick to remind us that God who gave Jesus the power is still greater.

PHILIPPIANS 2:10
Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed upon him the name which is above every name ...

1 CORINTHIANS 15:27
For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that 'everything' has been put under him it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. -NIV

I believe this needs no further explanation.

2.OMNISCIENT:
Jesus is not all-knowing. He admits to there being limits to his knowledge.
MATHEW 24:36
But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, only the father.

MATHEW 20:23
Jesus said to them: You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right hand or my left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.

Even when Jesus returned to heaven and was glorified, he still depended on his father for knowledge:
REVELATION 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE HIM to show his servants what must soon take place.

As for omnipresence.....well I reserve my comments for now!!

@Mr. Anony
about your video. I watched it and it was not convincing.
1. The speaker says if God is a spirit then he must be just like the angels and couldn't have created the angels. That does not make sense. A spirit is a form of life that is different from ours. Not all spirits are equal just as not all humans are equal. A father and his grown son may both be men, but one may be more powerful or stronger than the other.
God and his angels exist in Spirit form, but God is more powerful.

2.He says that for God to be truly God, he has to be in a form we do not understand. if we could understand him then he would not really be greater than we are. The fact that he is a trinity and therefore confusing is what makes him the true God.
Well the Christian Trinitarians are not unique in worshipping a triune God. Ancient Egypt, Babylon, Assyria and even modern India have their trinities. Are all those triune idols therefore truly Gods?

3. The cube example does not really explain the Trinity. One face of the cube is not the whole cube. It is still just that: one face of a cube. One side of a cube does not make a complete cube. It still needs the other five sides to make it a cube. I am sure you are not trying to insinuate that Jehovah the Almighty is incomplete as God without Jesus.

Should we agree that God has changed?
Num 23:19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1Samuel 15:29: And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Malachi 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

It is so clear, that God is not LIKE a man to repent or change his mind, God is not LIKE a man to be weak and have no power, God is not LIKE a man to becom a servant. This is the main msg that God is telling. If Jesus is indeed God, then God has suddenly taken a drastical decision to change. The change is not because he became a man or son of man,but becaus his attributes and essence have completely CHANGED.

God’s attributes never change, he is ALWAYS all POWERFUL He has all power and authority.

Jesus was not ALL POWERFUL or all KNOWING, all He had and known was from the God. (Matthew 24:36) Power and authority was GIVEN Him. ((John 5:30-47) Christ could do nothing one His own, all miracles, and His teaching. Were directly from He who is greater than Him "God" ( John 12:49)

God is not "LIKE" a man. So basicaly if trinitaeians are to believe Jesus is God, then they are in no doubt saying that God did change and lied when he said he does not change.

Scripture says Christ needed His Father. John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that ""I do nothing of myself""; "but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things".

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Hebrews 5:7-8 7During the days of Jesus life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and [b] tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered [/b]

God OWNS everything, power, authority including His Son: Eeverything Christ had was from His Father. John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.(Mat 28:18, John 13:3,) .

The OT confirms God gave Jesus power and authority: Daniel 7: 13-14 13“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Jesus is in no way God, and if Jesus is God, then God did definitely change! This contradict the 3 previews chapters i posted.
Christ cannot be the same God who said he does not change.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Jesus is the messenger of Yahweh, He is not God. God cannot be messenger of HIMSELF.

where are Ubenenedictus, Olaadegbu,true2god,free123,chukwudi44 etc..

even on their own tread, they are nowhere with their contribution,but rather, the most contribution that dominates their own tread is from non-trinitarian, na waoo!

MR Anony

I can show you verses of the Son reading people's minds i.e. they couldn't hide their thoughts from Him like the Father (Omniscience),

why is 'the son'(jesus), parralled in ignorance with 'the angels' by not having the a 'knowledge of the day and hour' of which the father possesed.

in affirmation, jesus declared 'no one except the father have the knowledge' note in the context that he is not making a case for his bodily form,because 'the fulness of deity lives in him bodily'

Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

fast pls!

Mr_Anony:
My friend, you guys read the bible with an "anti-trinity" bias so even where there are clear scripture showing us that Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God, you heartily ignore them so I will tell you the same thing I have told Barrister. Please define God. Lay out His attributes. Point out out those things that only God can possess and if Christ does not possess them, we can conveniently drop the whole "trinity" issue.

i thing you are getting confuse with the word/title "God".

Please, we have the "almighty" God = Yahweh
Exodus 6:3

and we have Jesus christ as reference as "mighty" God.
Isaiah 9:6.

Even satan also carry the title god in the bible.
2cor 4:4.

So, you are saying that Jesus is Yahweh, abi?

(pls, lets stick with the name of the almighty(Yahweh) and work with that so that the word "God" does not confuse Anony.)

Mr_Anony:



If you say that God is love, then who was He loving before creation? Himself? Or did He only start loving after He had created?

those are your vain opinion.

This is what the bible says :

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. " (John 3:16).

@Mr Anony

deny this one by one, i will still supply more;

If Jesus were the “true” God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― why would he need to request from himself legions of angels,

“Do you think I cannot call on my Father and he will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?” (Matthew 26:53 King James Version)

Apparently Matthew did not consider that Jesus was God because Matthew clearly said it was the Father not Jesus who granted the sons of Zebedee to sit at the right and left of Jesus in heaven as he wrote:

“It is not mine to grant but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matthew 20:20-23 KJV)

THINK! If Jesus was God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― he could have anyone he wanted to sit beside him in heaven.

If Jesus was God, why did he cry out:

“My Father, if it is possible may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will but as you will”,

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV)

Jesus, knowing he was going to die, showed who was his superior. He prayed in the garden (not to himself):

“Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me, not by my will, but yours.” (Luke 22:42 KJV)

Luke continues:

“Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46 KJV)

Would God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― need to beg and cry to himself to save himself from death? Jesus offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the one who was supposedly able to save him from death! Apparently Jesus was not crying to himself! I wonder how Christians, who maintain Jesus was God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― and even God incarnate, explain him crying to himself. Maybe it was just for dramatic effect in future “Passion” plays and movies. THINK Christians, THINK!

When Jesus was near death on the cross, Mark wrote that Jesus cried out:

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me.” (Mark 15:34 KJV)

Was Jesus co-equal to God then? Was Jesus God then? Was Jesus God incarnate then?

Even John had trouble associating Jesus to being the one and only God. John showed a Jesus that insist that the Father is the “only true God” ― the Invisible Man in the Sky. The gospel of John claims Jesus spoke:

“Father, the hour is come; glorify your Son - as you have given him power over all flesh”

John continues:

“…know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17:1-3 KJV)

Time and time again, Jesus showed that he was separate from God; having a God above him, a God whom he worshiped and a God whom he called “Father.” Ergo, Jesus is subordinate to God and was neither God, nor God incarnate!

Jesus supposedly made statements such as:

“The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing.” (John 5:19 KJV)

Jesus states that he and God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― are two separate beings as he said:

“I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.” (John 8:18 KJV).

As the Son of God he could not be God himself, for John says:

“No one has ever seen God at anytime.” (John 1:18)

The New Testament is very clear about the relationship of God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― to Jesus and Jesus could never be co-equal with God in power or strength. Why would John say Jesus told Mary that he considered her Father as his Father and her God as his God?

“Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17 KJV)

John sums it up when he wrote,

“I (Jesus) go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28 KJV)

Mark did not believe that Jesus was the “true God” either. Mark's Jesus said to the women,

“Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” (Mark 10:17-18 KJV)

Mr Anony

you tried to sell the insinuation that in colosians 2:15 'jesus as the firstborn of creation',

that what is meant was that he (jesus) is the 'first to exist' instead of him (jesus) being the first creation of his father, the the oversight of creation handed to him after his(jesus) being created. lets see how the creation job was handed to jesus by his father;

psalm 89:4, 25-27;

25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Mr_Anony:

If you say that God is love,

the bible says.......'God is love'......say after me,....the bible says.......'God is love'

stop attributing a confirmed truth as a mere opinion of someone because you disagree with the bble verse, repeat again,.....the bible says.......'God is love'

ehn hennn! its the bible discription of God, okay?

then who was He loving before creation? Himself? Or did He only start loving after He had created?

you posed to be wiser here,with your questions!

see why your logic here will not work!

1 cor 1:20-21;

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

"it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe'' so your logic is nulled! sorry! leave God the way he is!

BARRISTERS: @Mr Anony



bolded above is where confusion sets in, they are not bible concepts! and since it is not defined in the bible,but rather different interpretations culminate in the concept, i cannot give you my mandate on this because its not defined in the bible, but we know God to the extext described in the bible as the most powerful and abundance of knowledge ,how powerful he is,rests within the bible context, maybe he is all powerful? or all knowing should not be our inflated imaginations!

This here is a very poor and cowardly answer. It is either God is all-powerful and all-knowing or there is someone more powerful and more knowledgeable than God. If you shirk away from admitting that God is all powerful, then essentially you are leaving room for the possibility of one more powerful than God. So which is it? Is God all-powerful and all-knowing or is He not?

you lied!

Proverbs 8:22-24
(NIV)
22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,[a]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,

''The Lord [b]brought me forth'' ''I was formed'' ''I was given birth'' i was created by the LORD


prov 8:22 king james ver.

I was 'possesed'

using the original hebrew/greek translation H7069=Create
H7069

קנה

qânâh

kaw-naw'

A primitive root; to {erect} that {is} create

New International Version
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
New Living Translation )
"The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.

English Standard Version
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.

New American Standard Bible
"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The LORD[b] made me[/b] at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago.

International Standard Version
"The LORD[b] made me[/b] as he began his planning, before his ancient activity commenced.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The LORD possessed [/b]me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Lord Jehovah [b]created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.”

God proposed to make jesus 'my firstborn'

Lol, so Wisdom is now the same as the Son of God? Even funnier, the Son of God is now a 'she'?
I hope you do realize that Proverbs is poetry and wisdom used there is merely an act of personification. Please don't cherry-pick beat scripture into shape.
Let's look at the next verse

Psalm 89:27
King James Bible

Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Is David now the same as the Son of God? Please read the whole chapter don't just lift verses out of context.

he was granted by the father to receive worship! phil 2:6-9
and His father is exempted!

Notice the implication of what you are saying here: You are insinuating that God who will not share His glory with anyone and permit anyone to worship anything else apart from Him is suddenly granting someone else the authority to receive worship and share His glory. The funny part is that when we read John 17, we find that this glory was actually always been shared from before the world began.What makes Christ so special? It is either Christ is God or there are two Gods receiving worship in Heaven one greater than the other.

Todaynatoday: Why interprete something that needs no further interpretation. God is one, only by twisting scriptures would you interprete one as "three-in-one".

Nobody is arguing about the oneness of God. We worship one God. The point I am making is that God is multi-personal.

To an ordinary human, many things in the bible defy logic. Only by the leading of the Holy Spirit can you get true understanding of the scriptures. And God is one not a multi-personal being.

Actually, many things in the bible do not defy logic. In fact I haven't come across anything in the bible that defies logic. The Holy Spirit teaches us scriptures and He doesn't do it by having us throw away reasoning.

God is, was and will always be love. God never changes. Creation of the universe, heavenly beings, man etcetara etcetara was borne out of love.

We are not contesting that God is love. I agree 100% that God is love. The question is how can you claim that God created out of love if He couldn't possibly have experienced it before creation?

ijawkid:

Lol..........God is all Good ..........

Prove to me Jesus is all GOOD just like the Father.......that's just a definition of GOD........

Jesus Christ had no evil found in Him not even a tiny little bit. He was perfect.

also GOD cannot die...........did Jesus die??....

What you have done here is switch and argue a strawman. I am pointing to Jesus Christ's full existence as the Son of God and you are limiting Him to His fleshly form just to "win an argument" seriously? Is Christ dead or is He alive forever?

@Anon and others
i have been reading on the sideline all the posting and i must commend you all for trying to lay this matter as clearly as possible. The more boomark and co try to show the All "Oneness" of God, yet you see more scriptures showing God as a "multipersonal Entity" mysteriously unknown yet being known -what a contradiction, eh? Ok lets all take this out for starts which mrAnony has requested and then we build from there:

Now to your demand
Show us where the bible states that One God is 3 persons. *then anony said...*
Perhaps this might be the best way for us to understand what is meant by Trinity is to ask you to define God. Who is God?
Is He omniscient?
Is He omnipresent?
Is He omnipotent?
Can you show me these 3 words in the bible? I am sure you can't because they simply are not in the bible however we read verses that confirm these attributes of God.
I can show you verses that show that the Son can be at more than one place at a time like the Father (omnipresence),
I can show you verses of the Son reading people's minds i.e. they couldn't hide their thoughts from Him like the Father (Omniscience),
I can show you the Son assuring us that He will do anything we ask for in faith(omnipotence)
The Son was uncreated and existed from the beginning with the Father (The Son is also eternal)
The Son accepted worship to Himself (Mind you this is something no angel would dare to do)
If you can look at all these attributes and tell me that the Son is not God even though He has all the same attributes you would use to define God, then it is either there are 2 Gods in your bible or God is a multi-personal being.

ok lets start with the bolded...

Mr_Anony:
Jesus Christ had no evil found in Him not even a tiny little bit. He was perfect.

Oh sorry bro,,,,,.......Jesus did say no one should be called GOOD,except just one person.........not that Jesus wasn't perfect and GOOD,Jesus still again for the sake of making truths clear to trinitarians like you had to reiterate that he isn't equal to his Father and GOD....Jesus had to immediately tell the rich man that the greatest and highest standard of GOODness was nobody else but the Father.............remember I said "All-Good" is one of the attributes of Yahweh,which ofcus Jesus confirmed........
________________________________
Mark 10:17,18
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up
to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good
teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit
eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered.
“No one is good—except God alone.
________________________________
Hope you are reading Jesus' own words(the acclaimed co-equal with God the Father).....

Who is that GOD" alone" that is good if I may ask you??.......

Mr_Anony:
What you have done here is switch and argue a strawman. I am pointing to Jesus Christ's full existence as the Son of God and you are limiting Him to His fleshly form just to "win an argument" seriously? Is Christ dead or is He alive forever?

Now it seems you want to resolve to playing that usual wayo when it comes to discussing the trinity.....right??.......

Deathlessness and indestructibility are attributes of the almighty.........Christ at one point in time died,was killed,and was ressurected(and let me say this he was even created to start with.)........such can't happen with the almighty.......this discussion is about if Jesus is equal to his GOD and FATHER .........you can't escape with logic this time..................
For 3 good days Jesus didn't exist.........he died........I repeat it is impossible for GOD to die...........

_____________________________

If you have chosen the premise that Jesus' life on earth should be excluded from this discussion,then I might not continue with you in this vague argument...........

You act like if Jesus didn't come to the earth you would ever have dreamnt of a doctrine like the ""TRINITY""..........
______________________________

Even if you choose to be abberant,we are still here to prove Jesus is and was never equal to his GOD and Father.....

hisblud: @Anon and others
i have been reading on the sideline all the posting and i must commend you all for trying to lay this matter as clearly as possible. The more boomark and co try to show the All "Oneness" of God, yet you see more scriptures showing God as a "multipersonal Entity" mysteriously unknown yet being known -what a contradiction, eh? Ok lets all take this out for starts which mrAnony has requested and then we build from there: ok lets start with the bolded...

Anony has chosen to play his usual wayo......how did anony know that Jesus is all knowing??.....he drew that conclusion by saying Jesus could read the minds of individuals just like his Father......and how did he get to that junction??....it definitely would be instances when Jesus read the minds of persons while on the earth.......but right now anony has said we should discard Jesus' life on earth just for this discussion,meanwhile he has already built on that..........

NO BE WAYO be that??......

Jesus is not equal to his Father in any way.........

#Is Jesus all knowing??NO
#is Jesus all powerful??..impossible.....
#...is Jesus all -GOOD??.....NO..

honeychild:
I am sorry but the Scriptures disagree with you. Let us take these attributes one after the other:
1. OMNIPOTENT:
Jesus is not omnipotent. He has been GIVEN a lot of power by his father. But the Bible is quick to remind us that God who gave Jesus the power is still greater.

PHILIPPIANS 2:10
Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed upon him the name which is above every name ...

1 CORINTHIANS 15:27
For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that 'everything' has been put under him it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. -NIV

I believe this needs no further explanation.

2.OMNISCIENT:
Jesus is not all-knowing. He admits to there being limits to his knowledge.
MATHEW 24:36
But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, only the father.

MATHEW 20:23
Jesus said to them: You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right hand or my left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.

Even when Jesus returned to heaven and was glorified, he still depended on his father for knowledge:
REVELATION 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE HIM to show his servants what must soon take place.

As for omnipresence.....well I reserve my comments for now!!

Oh good! I love this response because it gives us an opportunity to study scripture. Now let us look at who Christ is

Omnipotent: Jesus is Omnipotent. John 1:1-3

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Note that this was before Christ came to earth. . . . .Without Christ there could not have been any creation. This verse clearly shows us an uncreated being at the beginning who is with God and is God. The only way this verse can make sense is if God is a multi-personal being.
If God is not a multi-personal being then you would have 2 Gods at the beginning and one of the Gods couldn't create except with the help of the other God. This is blasphemy.

Now I know some versions use the words "all things were made through Him" instead of "by Him" and I know that my barrister friend will probably jump on the word that is why I have taken time to point out that you would still have the same problem because you would be saying that one God could not create without working through another God. Blasphemy again.

Also for those who say that the Word is a god. and was created first then used as a tool to create everything else. I will call you to pay attention to the verse.
The verse says "in the beginning was the Word" (in the same way Gen 1:1 says in the beginning God).
It goes on to say that the Word was existing with God (notice that the verse clearly points that the same way God existed from the beginning, the Word was with Him not having a beginning).
Next it goes on to say "the Word was God" (I know you guys say the Word was "a god" it continues restating again in verse 2 that this Word was in the beginning with God (not the first created thing)
It continues - All things were made by(or if you prefer "through" Him and without Him (the Word) there was nothing made that was made (notice how it phrases it. Without the Word, there was NOTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE). So if you insist on arguing that the Word was made, you must provide that through which it was made from because I don't know how you can make something through itself.

As we read on, we see that this same Word that is uncreated and who without Him nothing would exist came to the earth as the man Jesus Christ. I don't need to tell you all the miracles He did because I'm sure you know them.

The above exegesis of John 1:1 now makes sense of Phil 2:6-7

......Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. KJV

.....Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. NIV

....Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, NLT

It shows us clearly that Jesus(the Word) is God. The exact same attributes, the exact same nature as God but He chose to humble Himself and not employ His God priviledges by taking the form of feeble man. (I know Barrister has contested the word 'chose' but the verse is clear that He made himself of no reputation and took upon Himself the form of a servant).

I think the amplified version translates it beautifully.

Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. AMP


(I can't tell you how excited I am at this point, I am holding myself back from typing a long sermon like my brother Ihedinobi likes to do but I'll continue. I hope that you actually do read it and not simply ignore it)

Continuing.....

Now we know who Christ is before He humbled Himself and came to earth, let us now look at the kind of person He was. Notice at this point that Christ as a man did not have His God privileges but was living in humility. In this state, it makes perfect sense to pray to the Father and to give glory to Him.
The fact that the two of them are jointly and equally God does not mean that they are competing over seniority. The Word here which is God was simply playing the role of the humble Son. In fact before the coming of Christ, God was simply known as God. The whole Father and Son business started when one Person of God came and started referring to the other person of God as Father and Himself as Son because He was the 'sent' one and was giving glory to the 'sender'.

Consider Isaiah's prophecy:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Notice the titles of this one child that will be born to us. They are all the titles we use to describe both God the Father (Everlasting Father, Mighty God), the Son (Prince of Peace) and the Holy Ghost (Wonderful Counselor). Essentially what Isaiah is saying is that God will be born in the flesh.

Also consider another of Isaiah's prophecies

All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means ‘God is with us’). Isaiah 7:14

It is very clear that whenever Isaiah talks about the birth of Christ he is essentially saying that God will come. He doesn't talk about it as a father sending his son because in the old testament, they did not have such a concept.

Now read Matthew 1:22-23 and we see that Christ was a fulfillment of that prophecy. Essentially Christ is God in the flesh. This is why when Jesus says that He is the Son of God, the pharisees immediately knew what He was implying (i.e. God born in the flesh)

So the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, thereby making himself equal with God. [/i]John 5:18


Another thing again I would draw your attention to are the kind of statements Jesus was making while on earth and the authority with which He was making them. He was making statements that no prophet or angel could ever dare to make. I want you to pay attention to what Jesus is saying and how He is saying it.

[i]“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. John 14:12-14

Notice He is essentially saying have faith in me, pray to me, and I will answer your prayer. This will bring glory to the Father.

If after this, you still insist that the Father and the Son are not both jointly and equally God, then you will have to explain why God will be glorified when you pray to someone else and that someone else answers your prayer.

In fact when you read John 14 altogether, you see Christ telling the apostles things like "if you see me you have seen God, if you know me, you have known the Father".

Let us move even further and I'll show you some more places where Christ does something that no prophet or angel can dare to do.

Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
Luke 7:48-49
I want you to think about this for a second. Remember that this was in a time when to receive forgiveness of sin you had to kill a goat as sacrifice to God while wearing sackcloth and ashes fasting and repenting in tears.

.........and yet this "son of a carpenter" just casually forgives it. That is why the Jews marveled. Jesus had just done something that only God had the right to do.

Let us look at some more:
Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the Lord of the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:. In fact let me quote it so you see how He said it.

".......For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” I have highlighted the word 'even' to show that it signifies that He is not merely Lord of the Sabbath but that the Sabbath is one of the many things that are subject to Him.

Once again I would like you to look at it in context. Imagine that you were a Jew living at that time. This is one of the strict commandments of God which is punishable by death if broken. You probably know someone who was stoned to death for being foolish enough to break the Sabbath. All of a sudden, this Rabbi shows up and says that God's law is subject to him. What is he implying?

One more evidence of Christ's authority....

We see Christ talking about the Holy Spirit and He says

".....However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you." John 16:13-15

Essentially what Jesus has said here is that He shares all the Father's attributes. If you read that chapter, we come across a very interesting relationship.

verse 7: Jesus sends the Spirit of God.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

verse 13: The Spirit of God will only speak based on Jesus' authority.
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Does this sound familiar to when Jesus says he does not speak from His own authority but only what He learnt from the Father? I think it does.

Does it now mean that therefore Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit because Jesus is the sender and the Holy Spirit is teaching Jesus' message? No it does not.

Another passage (John 14:16-17) shows that Jesus will pray to the Father to send the Spirit. Do the two verses contradict? No.

So who exactly is sending the Spirit and who exactly is the Spirit "learning from" and revealing to us? The Father or The Son? Answer: Both. They are the same Being!



To be continued.......

(mind you we are still talking about the omnipotence of Jesus Christ)

nedu2000: John 3:16.....for God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten "SON"..........versions of the bible vary as 'servant' can signify anyone ready to do someone else bidding. I for example is a servant to my father 'cause I do his bidding,but doesn't take away the fact that I'm still his son

Do not live in denial! That John's verse you quoted was exponged from the Revised statndard version published in 1952 as a fabrication because it was not there in the MOST ANCIENT MANUSCRIPT. If you want to hang your salvation on something, if you believe in the judgement of God and you want to be saved, why sell your soul to uncertainty? Be rational minded and seek for the truth with all honesty not emotions driven by some background influence.

But the thing is - do you really believe?

If Jesus Christ is a part of God that manifested in the flesh and without him the Father is not complete as God Almighty, why was it so difficult for him to tell his disciples? Rather, he chose to say the 'Father is greater than I' and also prayed to the Father as his God?

Is there hierarchy in the trinity? Why would Jesus call his co-equal his God and his Father and also admits that He is greater than him? Again, since God cannot die, how was it possible for a part of Him (That makes Him complete) to die? Was Jesus pretending when the Bible says he died and was raised after 3days? Or did he actually die and was raised by his Father and God?

In Jesus' words, he never claimed equality with his Father and God. Throughout his life on earth (before his death and after his ressurection), he never claimed equality with his Father but prayed to Him as His God! Makes me wonder if there is hierarchy in the so-called trinity!

The trinity is unscriptural and a fraud, period!!!

If after this, you still insist that the Father and the Son are not both jointly and equally God, then you will have to explain why God will be glorified when you pray to someone else and that someone else answers your prayer.

this is deep!

seriallink: If Jesus Christ is a part of God that manifested in the flesh and without him the Father is not complete as God Almighty, why was it so difficult for him to tell his disciples? Rather, he chose to say the 'Father is greater than I' and also prayed to the Father as his God?

Is there hierarchy in the trinity? Why would Jesus call his co-equal his God and his Father and also admits that He is greater than him? Again, since God cannot die, how was it possible for a part of Him (That makes Him complete) to die? Was Jesus pretending when the Bible says he died and was raised after 3days? Or did he actually die and was raised by his Father and God?

In Jesus' words, he never claimed equality with his Father and God. Throughout his life on earth (before his death and after his ressurection), he never claimed equality with his Father but prayed to Him as His God! Makes me wonder if there is hierarchy in the so-called trinity!

The trinity is unscriptural and a fraud, period!!!

The "trinity" was NEVER mentioned in the scripture so is "omnipotence", "omniscience", yet scripture alludes to them. Check this verse and tell me what it means,

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." (1 Timothy 3:16).

hmm paul oh why this statement

hmm, why do you think demons tremble when Jesus comes towards them? they know "something" that the people did/may not have seen. And this is what they knew/know -

1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

hisblud:
The "trinity" was NEVER mentioned in the scripture so is "omnipotence", "omniscience", yet scripture alludes to them. Check this verse and tell me what it means, hmm paul oh why this statement

So you never learn??

You still have not learnt not to quote 1 timothy 3:16 when discussing the trinity??....that rendering is a spurious one......

Smh!!!!!.....

ijawkid:

So you never learn??

You still have not learnt not to quote 1 timothy 3:16 when discussing the trinity??....that rendering is a spurious one......

Smh!!!!!.....

smh also! What is your correct rendering if i might ask to learn? Here is it in amplified, young literal translation and the message:

1 Tim 3:16
And great and important and weighty, we confess, is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of godliness. He [God] was made visible in human flesh, justified and vindicated in the [Holy] Spirit, was seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, [and] taken up in glory.
AMP

Young Literal Translation

1 Tim 3:16
and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety — God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!
YLT

The Message

1 Tim 3:16
This Christian life is a great mystery, far exceeding our understanding, but some things are clear enough:

He appeared in a human body,
was proved right by the invisible Spirit,
was seen by angels.
He was proclaimed among all kinds of peoples,
believed in all over the world,
taken up into heavenly glory.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

hisblud: smh also! What is your correct rendering if i might ask to learn? Here is it in amplified, young literal translation and the message:
Young Literal Translation


The Message

Lol.....still not learning......that rendering was an excerpt from the latin vulgate which was not in the originals........

For you to have been on the religion section for so long and still quoting 1 timothy 3:16 to support the trinity shows you've not been paying attention........
_____________________________

You still have not helped anony to tackle the issue of Jesus who you claim to be God dying,when we know that dying is not one of Gods attributes.........