hisblud: hmm, why do you think demons tremble when Jesus comes towards them? they know "something" that the people did/may not have seen. And this is what they knew/know -

The demons unlike you knew that Jesus Christ is not GOD.


"What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"—Matthew 8:29

"What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God."—Mark 1:24, Luke 4:34

"You are the Son of God."—Mark 3:11

"You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.—Luke 4:41

"What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."—Luke 8:28, Mark 5:7


Based on the evidence above , it is apparent that the demons never considered Jesus to be GOD , otherwise they would have called him so.


About trembling , let us hear what James had to say ?

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." - James 2:19


What can't you Trinitarians understand ?

I tell you what , you guys are so glued to false tradition it is scary.

frosbel:

The demons unlike you knew that Jesus Christ is not GOD.


"What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"—Matthew 8:29

"What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God."—Mark 1:24, Luke 4:34

"You are the Son of God."—Mark 3:11

"You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.—Luke 4:41

"What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."—Luke 8:28, Mark 5:7


Based on the evidence above , it is apparent that the demons never considered Jesus to be GOD , otherwise they would have called him so.


About trembling , let us hear what James had to say ?

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." - James 2:19


What can't you Trinitarians understand ?

I tell you what , you guys are so glued to false tradition it is scary.

Lol....my bro I'm smh seriously ...........even in the face of clear facts,trinitarians are still arguing that Jesus is equal to GOD.............

@ijawkid oops sorry i have not come across such spurious rendering of that verse, kindly render it accordingly ko! Waiting to see the correct rendering thanks. Just 1tim3:16

hisblud: @ijawkid oops sorry i have not come across such spurious rendering of that verse, kindly render it accordingly ko! Waiting to see the correct rendering thanks. Just 1tim3:16 :

You act like you're a new comer..........have you replied frosbel??.....

ijawkid:

You act like you're a new comer..........have you replied frosbel??.....

He dare not

ijawkid:

You act like you're a new comer..........have you replied frosbel??.....

let me see the correct rendering first which will correct the "spurious" rendering of 1 tim3.16. Thank you

hisblud: let me see the correct rendering first which will correct the "spurious" rendering of 1 tim3.16. Thank you

##.New International Version (©1984)
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness
is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated
by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was
preached among the nations, was believed on in
the world, was taken up in glory.
____________________________
##New Living Translation (©2007)
Without question, this is the great mystery of
our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body
and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by
angels and announced to the nations. He was
believed in throughout the world and taken to
heaven in glory.
______________________________

##English Standard Version (©2001)
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of
godliness: He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations, believed on in
the world, taken up in glory.

______________________________
##New American Standard Bible (©1995)
By common confession, great is the mystery of
godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in
the world, Taken up in glory.

___________________________
##Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
And most certainly, the mystery of godliness
is great: He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels,
preached among the nations, believed on in the
world, taken up in glory.
_____________________________

##International Standard Version (©2012)
By common confession, the secret of our godly
worship is great: In flesh was he revealed to
sight, kept righteous by the Spirit's might,
adored by angels singing. To nations was he
manifest, believing souls found peace and rest,
our Lord in heaven reigning!
______________________________

##GoodNews Translation...

16 No one can deny how great is the secret of
our religion: He appeared in human form, was
shown to be right by the Spirit, and was seen by
angels. He was preached among the nations, was
believed in throughout the world, and was taken
up to heaven.
______________________________
______________________________

If you had done your research well you would have found out the truth of the rendering found in the KJV...........but even after been told a million times in this forum,you choose to hold on to that verse..........oya if Jesus was the almighty GOD in flesh,then why did he die??.....can the almighty GOD die??....

BARRISTERS: @Mr Anony

deny this one by one, i will still supply more;

If Jesus were the “true” God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― why would he need to request from himself legions of angels,

“Do you think I cannot call on my Father and he will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?” (Matthew 26:53 King James Version)

Apparently Matthew did not consider that Jesus was God because Matthew clearly said it was the Father not Jesus who granted the sons of Zebedee to sit at the right and left of Jesus in heaven as he wrote:

“It is not mine to grant but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matthew 20:20-23 KJV)

THINK! If Jesus was God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― he could have anyone he wanted to sit beside him in heaven.

If Jesus was God, why did he cry out:

“My Father, if it is possible may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will but as you will”,

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV)

Jesus, knowing he was going to die, showed who was his superior. He prayed in the garden (not to himself):

“Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me, not by my will, but yours.” (Luke 22:42 KJV)

Luke continues:

“Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46 KJV)

Would God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― need to beg and cry to himself to save himself from death? Jesus offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the one who was supposedly able to save him from death! Apparently Jesus was not crying to himself! I wonder how Christians, who maintain Jesus was God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― and even God incarnate, explain him crying to himself. Maybe it was just for dramatic effect in future “Passion” plays and movies. THINK Christians, THINK!

When Jesus was near death on the cross, Mark wrote that Jesus cried out:

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me.” (Mark 15:34 KJV)

Was Jesus co-equal to God then? Was Jesus God then? Was Jesus God incarnate then?

Even John had trouble associating Jesus to being the one and only God. John showed a Jesus that insist that the Father is the “only true God” ― the Invisible Man in the Sky. The gospel of John claims Jesus spoke:

“Father, the hour is come; glorify your Son - as you have given him power over all flesh”

John continues:

“…know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17:1-3 KJV)

Time and time again, Jesus showed that he was separate from God; having a God above him, a God whom he worshiped and a God whom he called “Father.” Ergo, Jesus is subordinate to God and was neither God, nor God incarnate!

Jesus supposedly made statements such as:

“The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing.” (John 5:19 KJV)

Jesus states that he and God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― are two separate beings as he said:

“I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.” (John 8:18 KJV).

As the Son of God he could not be God himself, for John says:

“No one has ever seen God at anytime.” (John 1:18)

The New Testament is very clear about the relationship of God ― the Invisible Man in the Sky ― to Jesus and Jesus could never be co-equal with God in power or strength. Why would John say Jesus told Mary that he considered her Father as his Father and her God as his God?

“Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17 KJV)

John sums it up when he wrote,

“I (Jesus) go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28 KJV)

Mark did not believe that Jesus was the “true God” either. Mark's Jesus said to the women,

“Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” (Mark 10:17-18 KJV)

^^^

such ^^^ is the trinity, the central doctrine of the religion of christiandom.

Well done barrister.

Mr_Anony:
This here is a very poor and cowardly answer. It is either God is all-powerful and all-knowing or there is someone more powerful and more knowledgeable than God. If you shirk away from admitting that God is all powerful, then essentially you are leaving room for the possibility of one more powerful than God. So which is it? Is God all-powerful and all-knowing or is He not?



Lol, so Wisdom is now the same as the Son of God? Even funnier, the Son of God is now a 'she'?
I hope you do realize that Proverbs is poetry and wisdom used there is merely an act of personification. Please don't cherry-pick beat scripture into shape.
Let's look at the next verse


Is David now the same as the Son of God? Please read the whole chapter don't just lift verses out of context.




Notice the implication of what you are saying here: You are insinuating that God who will not share His glory with anyone and permit anyone to worship anything else apart from Him is suddenly granting someone else the authority to receive worship and share His glory. The funny part is that when we read John 17, we find that this glory was actually always been shared from before the world began.What makes Christ so special? It is either Christ is God or there are two Gods receiving worship in Heaven one greater than the other.

dont lie and say that that prophesy at the book of Psalm was for david because david was not even a first born son but a last born.

Mr_Anony:
Notice the implication of what you are saying here: You are insinuating that God who will not share His glory with anyone and permit anyone to worship anything else apart from Him is suddenly granting someone else the authority to receive worship and share His glory. The funny part is that when we read John 17, we find that this glory was actually always been shared from before the world began.What makes Christ so special? It is either Christ is God or there are two Gods receiving worship in Heaven one greater than the other.

you are the one the one that is not content with the scriptures that is why you bring in video and logic.

After Jesus left the earth he was rewarded and exalted to a high level and that is why we have this:

"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." (Exodus 6:3).

And then this:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6).
............

It will then be your word against that of Yahweh.

Want you see that Yahweh is almighty while Jesus is mighty?

The word God can be attained by all that receives worshipful honor, it is a title.

Even satan is also called go2.

But we are talking about who is the universal sovereign.

Who is the almighty God.

Is Jesus = Yahweh?

Stop running around with the title "God"

Mr_Anony:

Oh good! I love this response because it gives us an opportunity to study scripture. Now let us look at who Christ is

Omnipotent: Jesus is Omnipotent. John 1:1-3

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Note that this was before Christ came to earth. . . . .Without Christ there could not have been any creation. This verse clearly shows us an uncreated being at the beginning who is with God and is God. The only way this verse can make sense is if God is a multi-personal being.
If God is not a multi-personal being then you would have 2 Gods at the beginning and one of the Gods couldn't create except with the help of the other God. This is blasphemy.

Now I know some versions use the words "all things were made through Him" instead of "by Him" and I know that my barrister friend will probably jump on the word that is why I have taken time to point out that you would still have the same problem because you would be saying that one God could not create without working through another God. Blasphemy again.

Also for those who say that the Word is a god. and was created first then used as a tool to create everything else. I will call you to pay attention to the verse.
The verse says "in the beginning was the Word" (in the same way Gen 1:1 says in the beginning God).
It goes on to say that the Word was existing with God (notice that the verse clearly points that the same way God existed from the beginning, the Word was with Him not having a beginning).
Next it goes on to say "the Word was God" (I know you guys say the Word was "a god" it continues restating again in verse 2 that this Word was in the beginning with God (not the first created thing)
It continues - All things were made by(or if you prefer "through" Him and without Him (the Word) there was nothing made that was made (notice how it phrases it. Without the Word, there was NOTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE). So if you insist on arguing that the Word was made, you must provide that through which it was made from because I don't know how you can make something through itself.

As we read on, we see that this same Word that is uncreated and who without Him nothing would exist came to the earth as the man Jesus Christ. I don't need to tell you all the miracles He did because I'm sure you know them.

The above exegesis of John 1:1 now makes sense of Phil 2:6-7

......Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. KJV

.....Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. NIV

....Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, NLT

It shows us clearly that Jesus(the Word) is God. The exact same attributes, the exact same nature as God but He chose to humble Himself and not employ His God priviledges by taking the form of feeble man. (I know Barrister has contested the word 'chose' but the verse is clear that He made himself of no reputation and took upon Himself the form of a servant).

I think the amplified version translates it beautifully.

Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. AMP


(I can't tell you how excited I am at this point, I am holding myself back from typing a long sermon like my brother Ihedinobi likes to do but I'll continue. I hope that you actually do read it and not simply ignore it)

Continuing.....

Now we know who Christ is before He humbled Himself and came to earth, let us now look at the kind of person He was. Notice at this point that Christ as a man did not have His God privileges but was living in humility. In this state, it makes perfect sense to pray to the Father and to give glory to Him.
The fact that the two of them are jointly and equally God does not mean that they are competing over seniority. The Word here which is God was simply playing the role of the humble Son. In fact before the coming of Christ, God was simply known as God. The whole Father and Son business started when one Person of God came and started referring to the other person of God as Father and Himself as Son because He was the 'sent' one and was giving glory to the 'sender'.

Consider Isaiah's prophecy:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Notice the titles of this one child that will be born to us. They are all the titles we use to describe both God the Father (Everlasting Father, Mighty God), the Son (Prince of Peace) and the Holy Ghost (Wonderful Counselor). Essentially what Isaiah is saying is that God will be born in the flesh.

Also consider another of Isaiah's prophecies

All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means ‘God is with us’). Isaiah 7:14

It is very clear that whenever Isaiah talks about the birth of Christ he is essentially saying that God will come. He doesn't talk about it as a father sending his son because in the old testament, they did not have such a concept.

Now read Matthew 1:22-23 and we see that Christ was a fulfillment of that prophecy. Essentially Christ is God in the flesh. This is why when Jesus says that He is the Son of God, the pharisees immediately knew what He was implying (i.e. God born in the flesh)

So the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, thereby making himself equal with God. [/i]John 5:18


Another thing again I would draw your attention to are the kind of statements Jesus was making while on earth and the authority with which He was making them. He was making statements that no prophet or angel could ever dare to make. I want you to pay attention to what Jesus is saying and how He is saying it.

[i]“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. John 14:12-14

Notice He is essentially saying have faith in me, pray to me, and I will answer your prayer. This will bring glory to the Father.

If after this, you still insist that the Father and the Son are not both jointly and equally God, then you will have to explain why God will be glorified when you pray to someone else and that someone else answers your prayer.

In fact when you read John 14 altogether, you see Christ telling the apostles things like "if you see me you have seen God, if you know me, you have known the Father".

Let us move even further and I'll show you some more places where Christ does something that no prophet or angel can dare to do.

Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
Luke 7:48-49
I want you to think about this for a second. Remember that this was in a time when to receive forgiveness of sin you had to kill a goat as sacrifice to God while wearing sackcloth and ashes fasting and repenting in tears.

.........and yet this "son of a carpenter" just casually forgives it. That is why the Jews marveled. Jesus had just done something that only God had the right to do.

Let us look at some more:
Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the Lord of the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:. In fact let me quote it so you see how He said it.

".......For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” I have highlighted the word 'even' to show that it signifies that He is not merely Lord of the Sabbath but that the Sabbath is one of the many things that are subject to Him.

Once again I would like you to look at it in context. Imagine that you were a Jew living at that time. This is one of the strict commandments of God which is punishable by death if broken. You probably know someone who was stoned to death for being foolish enough to break the Sabbath. All of a sudden, this Rabbi shows up and says that God's law is subject to him. What is he implying?

One more evidence of Christ's authority....

We see Christ talking about the Holy Spirit and He says

".....However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you." John 16:13-15

Essentially what Jesus has said here is that He shares all the Father's attributes. If you read that chapter, we come across a very interesting relationship.

verse 7: Jesus sends the Spirit of God.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

verse 13: The Spirit of God will only speak based on Jesus' authority.
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Does this sound familiar to when Jesus says he does not speak from His own authority but only what He learnt from the Father? I think it does.

Does it now mean that therefore Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit because Jesus is the sender and the Holy Spirit is teaching Jesus' message? No it does not.

Another passage (John 14:16-17) shows that Jesus will pray to the Father to send the Spirit. Do the two verses contradict? No.

So who exactly is sending the Spirit and who exactly is the Spirit "learning from" and revealing to us? The Father or The Son? Answer: Both. They are the same Being!



To be continued.......

(mind you we are still talking about the omnipotence of Jesus Christ)

what was all that about?
There was no capital and lower case alphabet in hebrew alphabet. QED.

hisblud: @Anon and others
i have been reading on the sideline all the posting and i must commend you all for trying to lay this matter as clearly as possible. The more boomark and co try to show the All "Oneness" of God, yet you see more scriptures showing God as a "multipersonal Entity" mysteriously unknown yet being known -what a contradiction, eh? Ok lets all take this out for starts which mrAnony has requested and then we build from there: ok lets start with the bolded...

those your bolded, though we know what it means and we also know that they are not bible "based word" but are said to be conceptual, are you saying that the bible cannot be understood without considering those words?

Is it possible that God forgot to include those specifics and definition in his word the bible?

If God did not make use of those exact word as define, did he said it will then be impossible to understand the bible?

Without the use of those human choice of word(omnipotent, Omni this and Omni that)
and the human choice of the word trinity there will be no salvation abi?

If not, i prefer to stick to the bible and what it says.

This added definition has ended up creating confussion where there was no confussion.

God does not need help from any human to add to his word the bible.
Peace.

hisblud: this is deep!

what is deep?

Anony has a personal problem since he prays to Jesus and not to Yahweh through Jesus christ in disobedince to the instruction that prayers should be directed to the father through the son:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. " (Matthew 6:9-10)..

That ^^^ is the model prayer. A model on how to pray.

If you dont follow it you are on your own.
Peace

frosbel:

The demons unlike you knew that Jesus Christ is not GOD.


"What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"—Matthew 8:29

"What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God."—Mark 1:24, Luke 4:34

"You are the Son of God."—Mark 3:11

"You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.—Luke 4:41

"What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."—Luke 8:28, Mark 5:7


Based on the evidence above , it is apparent that the demons never considered Jesus to be GOD , otherwise they would have called him so.


About trembling , let us hear what James had to say ?

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." - James 2:19


What can't you Trinitarians understand ?

I tell you what , you guys are so glued to false tradition it is scary.

thank you my brother.

frosbel:

The demons unlike you knew that Jesus Christ is not GOD.


"What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"—Matthew 8:29

"What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God."—Mark 1:24, Luke 4:34

"You are the Son of God."—Mark 3:11

"You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.—Luke 4:41

"What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."—Luke 8:28, Mark 5:7


Based on the evidence above , it is apparent that the demons never considered Jesus to be GOD , otherwise they would have called him so.


About trembling , let us hear what James had to say ?

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." - James 2:19


What can't you Trinitarians understand ?

I tell you what , you guys are so glued to false tradition it is scary.

hisblud: @ijawkid oops sorry i have not come across such spurious rendering of that verse, kindly render it accordingly ko! Waiting to see the correct rendering thanks. Just 1tim3:16

ijawkid:

You act like you're a new comer..........have you replied frosbel??.....

frosbel:

He dare not

hisblud: let me see the correct rendering first which will correct the "spurious" rendering of 1 tim3.16. Thank you

you went to see one verse of the bible and close your eyes to the truth abi?

Even the Demons that were former angels in heaven that knows the truth and even said it to Jesus will be wrong and Jesus will be wrong as to his identity abi?

But men that lived about 300yrs(3ce) that adopted the trinity from greek philosophers will know more than the former angels and Jesus himself?

I pity for you guys indeed.

Satan has used trinity to destroy christiandom and you cannot still see it.

Peoples life, are at stake and you still cant see it.

Men and women will go to church from infancy to old age and will still not know the bible and even know who God is and you cant still see it?

You know why? Satan has blinded them and you all with the Trinity = mystery.

If your God is a mystery, how will you all not be in "mystery land"?

Come out and leave trinity so that your eyes will open.
Peace

hisblud: let me see the correct rendering first which will correct the "spurious" rendering of 1 tim3.16. Thank you

@ijawkid That is the translation that you believe is correct and more accurate to the original?

ijawkid:

##.New International Version (©1984)
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness
is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated
by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was
preached among the nations, was believed on in
the world, was taken up in glory.
____________________________
##New Living Translation (©2007)
Without question, this is the great mystery of
our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body
and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by
angels and announced to the nations. He was
believed in throughout the world and taken to
heaven in glory.
______________________________

##English Standard Version (©2001)
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of
godliness: He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations, believed on in
the world, taken up in glory.

______________________________
##New American Standard Bible (©1995)
By common confession, great is the mystery of
godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in
the world, Taken up in glory.

___________________________
##Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
And most certainly, the mystery of godliness
is great: He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels,
preached among the nations, believed on in the
world, taken up in glory.
_____________________________

##International Standard Version (©2012)
By common confession, the secret of our godly
worship is great: In flesh was he revealed to
sight, kept righteous by the Spirit's might,
adored by angels singing. To nations was he
manifest, believing souls found peace and rest,
our Lord in heaven reigning!
______________________________

##GoodNews Translation...

16 No one can deny how great is the secret of
our religion: He appeared in human form, was
shown to be right by the Spirit, and was seen by
angels. He was preached among the nations, was
believed in throughout the world, and was taken
up to heaven.
______________________________
______________________________

If you had done your research well you would have found out the truth of the rendering found in the KJV...........but even after been told a million times in this forum,you choose to hold on to that verse..........oya if Jesus was the almighty GOD in flesh,then why did he die??.....can the almighty GOD die??....

Lol, It is interesting how your "truth of the rendering" migrates from translation to translation as long as it helps your bias. For instance if I quote 1John 5:7 for you from the KJV, "the truth of the rendering" will immediately pack her bags and run away to another translation.

I can challenge you to pick one translation where the "truth of the rendering" stays put but you won't because if your "truth of the rendering" stays one place, wahala go dey.

The day you people stop trying to make the bible to say what you want it to say by looking for amendable translations, that same day you will begin to understand the bible.

Hope to reply you to those un"spurious" rendering. Currently on phone. Stay tuned

@ijawkid going thru the various "correctly rendered" translation, this is what you will observe. Context they say, is king. When i read thru the whole chapter 3, i observed that paul started admonishing timothy on how to ordain a bishop. In vs 15-16, i quote

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15).
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." (1 Timothy 3:16).

One will notice that it didnot say church of christ but church of God(theos). Then paul move on to vs 16. In your "verified rendered" translation, stated He instead of God, looking at the greek of that word He in v16, it says "NT:3739 who, which, what, that" for Hos. Ok now join vs 15-16, you would notice that the which/who in v16 was referencing vs 15, that is

1 Tim 3:15-16
15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit,was seen by angels,was preached among the nations,was believed on in the world,was taken up in glory. NIV

so in conclusion, even the "correctly rendered" translation NIV, reading from verse 15-16, one will notice that the "Hos = who/which " in verse 16 was refering to no other but GOD in verse 15. Before i forget, the word "AND" in the "spurious rendered" KJV, in the greek is "kai" which means "so then", therefore you would see that vs 15 and 16 taken contextually, makes the meaning of v16 dependent on vs 15 Who is referred here as God!

@Mr Anony
I am rather disappointed in you. There have been at least four of five posts on this board with scriptures which comment on the relationship between Jesus and his father. Instead of commenting on these scriptures, you embark on a loooong epistle, throwing even more scriptures into the fray. Are we now engaging in a scripture slinging battle? Please comment on all these scriptures that have been brought to your notice by myself and Barristers.

(Matthew 26:53 King James Version)

“It is not mine to grant but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matthew 20:20-23 KJV)

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV)

“Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me, not by my will, but yours.” (Luke 22:42 KJV)


“The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing.” (John 5:19 KJV)

“Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17 KJV)

You can also add John 14:28. Phillipians 2:9,10; 1 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Corinthians 15:27.

After you let us know your view on these scriptures which were on the table before hand, we can start to look at your sermon. Otherwise there is no purpose to this discussion if it is just meant to be a scripture quoting competition.

^Nice one honeychild. I wonder why they are not addressing some of the scriptures quoted on this thread. Why are they selecting if the trinity is biblical?

doubleDx: ^Nice one honeychild. I wonder why they are not addressing some of the scriptures quoted on this thread. Why are they selecting if the trinity is biblical?

Gbam!

Mr_Anony:
Lol, It is interesting how your "truth of the rendering" migrates from translation to translation as long as it helps your bias. For instance if I quote 1John 5:7 for you from the KJV, "the truth of the rendering" will immediately pack her bags and run away to another translation.

I can challenge you to pick one translation where the "truth of the rendering" stays put but you won't because if your "truth of the rendering" stays one place, wahala go dey.

The day you people stop trying to make the bible to say what you want it to say by looking for amendable translations, that same day you will begin to understand the bible.

The translations are not even my problem.....you are my problem........you have been dubious through out this discussion.....-i'm still waiting for you to give me the reason why you would use Jesus' activities on earth to support your stance that he is the almighty or equal to the almighty,but prevent me from doing the same.....I'm still waiting for you to tell me how we would discard Jesus' human life in this discussion and still try to find out who Jesus really was.....you can as well tell us to discard the whole new testament and focus on the old testament.......if that happens the trinity dogma still won't stand......
________________________________
Talking about translation wahala even if we go by the kjv rendition as regards 1 timothy 3:16,how does it still prove that Jesus is God the almighty or equal to the almighty GOD??.....is GOD any bodies name??......did the apostle say GOd the almighty became manifest in the flesh............can the almighty be seen??.......is it possible to see GOD??..........eh mr anony??......
_____________________________
The reason why I digressed into translation issues was because that rendering of 1 timothy 3:16 in the kjv has even been discarded by fellow trinitarians as spurious....I was just letting hisbud know about it...........

@Anony

You did not explain 1cor 8:5-6. Or didn't you understand it? Let me bring it home to you.

For to us there is one president, Goodluck and there is but one vice-president, Sambo.
There is nothing here that shows that "one president" consist of Goodluck and sambo.

Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham and of
Isaac and of Jacob, the God of
our forefathers, has glorified His
servant, Jesus, whom you, for
your part, delivered up....

Do you see the one God the israelites worshipped? God the Father is the God of our forefathers. His servant, Jesus is not part of it. Do you disagree with this?

Concerning the confusion trinitarians are having with the term "God", look at zechariah 12:8:

the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them.

the angel of the LORD is like God, which means he is "similar" to God. That is why Michael is the one "who is like God." that Michael is like God does not make him equal to God. He still serve the Father, his God.

God the Father is the God of Jesus Christ, Eph 1:17, Heb 1:9, Rev 1:6.

This is what the bible teach:
One God over all is the Father not 3 persons who are Gods but in one God. Definition of trinity makes no sense according to the scripture.

Try and refute these things because they speak against trinity. Can you? And let your analogy fit into something real not abstract or unrealistic.

hisblud: @ijawkid going thru the various "correctly rendered" translation, this is what you will observe. Context they say, is king. When i read thru the whole chapter 3, i observed that paul started admonishing timothy on how to ordain a bishop. In vs 15-16, i quote One will notice that it didnot say church of christ but church of God(theos). Then paul move on to vs 16. In your "verified rendered" translation, stated He instead of God, looking at the greek of that word He in v16, it says "NT:3739 who, which, what, that" for Hos. Ok now join vs 15-16, you would notice that the which/who in v16 was referencing vs 15, that is
so in conclusion, even the "correctly rendered" translation NIV, reading from verse 15-16, one will notice that the "Hos = who/which " in verse 16 was refering to no other but GOD in verse 15. Before i forget, the word "AND" in the "spurious rendered" KJV, in the greek is "kai" which means "so then", therefore you would see that vs 15 and 16 taken contextually, makes the meaning of v16 dependent on vs 15 Who is referred here as God!

Why won't it say church of GOD?? You think that Jesus being the leader of the christian church is by his own making??....have you forgotten that the Father made Jesus Lord over his belongings??..........let me tell you this....there is nothing that Jesus posseses that wasn't given to him or that he didn't receive from his Father........

The problem with you and the wayo trinitarians who forced the word ""GOD"" into that verse is that y'all have already assumed that Jesus is co equal with the Father,because of the false trinity dogma......

Like I said to mr anony even your fellow trinitarians have discarded the kjv's rendering as a spurious one......also that verse even if we go by the kjv rendering still does not prove that it was the almighty GOD(Yahweh) that was made manifest in the flesh........why??...because one of Yahwehs attributes is that he is invincible(a spirit) and that no man can see Him and yet live....even the Jesus you claim is the almighty GOD told us that no one has ever seen GOD.....which GOD was Jesus talking about when he is the GOD??.....you guys have to start discarding philosophy and traditions of men and accept the bible for what it really is..........

honeychild: @Mr Anony
I am rather disappointed in you. There have been at least four of five posts on this board with scriptures which comment on the relationship between Jesus and his father. Instead of commenting on these scriptures, you embark on a loooong epistle, throwing even more scriptures into the fray. Are we now engaging in a scripture slinging battle? Please comment on all these scriptures that have been brought to your notice by myself and Barristers.

(Matthew 26:53 King James Version)

“It is not mine to grant but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matthew 20:20-23 KJV)

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV)

“Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me, not by my will, but yours.” (Luke 22:42 KJV)


“The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing.” (John 5:19 KJV)

“Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17 KJV)

You can also add John 14:28. Phillipians 2:9,10; 1 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Corinthians 15:27.

After you let us know your view on these scriptures which were on the table before hand, we can start to look at your sermon. Otherwise there is no purpose to this discussion if it is just meant to be a scripture quoting competition.

Wow! I was actually (and still am) in the process of typing out a continuation to my "sermon" when I saw this.

You say you don't want a scripture slinging match but then immediately proceed to sling a number of scriptures of your own and demand that I comment. How dishonest of you.

It is because I don't want to throw scriptures up and down against each other that I have proceeded to type the "long sermon" that you refused to read.

I don't believe that scripture contradicts each other and that is why I started with a background explaining who exactly Jesus is and why Jesus is God.

I don't think this argument will be of any benefit to us if on the one hand I take your comments seriously and take my time to give detailed responses while you just sit back and ignore it without even reading it throw out more verses then demand more answers.

Most of the verses you are slinging here are easily explained when you consider that Christ on earth was operating in humility having given up His God privileges to come to earth in the form of man and after He had served His mission, He went back to His position in the Godhead.

I suggest you take the time and read my previous response to you - also open your bible and take time to study the person of Christ don't just scout the bible for verses to throw at people, study it for yourself. Check if there is anywhere I am mistaken or have misrepresented what the bible actually means and point it out to me - and then we can continue. There is still more to come but first you must read what I have already written

@ Mr.Anony
This is the order in which this discussion went:
1. You said Christ shared His father's attributes of omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience.

2. I disagreed with you and gave you some references.

3. barristers joined in with a couple of posts all filled with references

4. You went silent for a couple of days during which I assumed you were at the very least preparing a sound explanation of how those scriptures agree with a Trinitarian God.

5. when you eventually reply you make absolutely no reference to what has been said before.

and that is whibI feel we are not having a productive conversation.

ijawkid:

Why won't it say church of GOD?? You think that Jesus being the leader of the christian church is by his own making??....have you forgotten that the Father made Jesus Lord over his belongings??..........let me tell you this....there is nothing that Jesus posseses that wasn't given to him or that he didn't receive from his Father........

The problem with you and the wayo trinitarians who forced the word ""GOD"" into that verse is that y'all have already assumed that Jesus is co equal with the Father,because of the false trinity dogma......

Like I said to mr anony even your fellow trinitarians have discarded the kjv's rendering as a spurious one......also that verse even if we go by the kjv rendering still does not prove that it was the almighty GOD(Yahweh) that was made manifest in the flesh........why??...because one of Yahwehs attributes is that he is invincible(a spirit) and that no man can see Him and yet live....even the Jesus you claim is the almighty GOD told us that no one has ever seen GOD.....which GOD was Jesus talking about when he is the GOD??.....you guys have to start discarding philosophy and traditions of men and accept the bible for what it really is..........

permit me to use logicboy's words...fail!
the above u are trying to show is utter fail!!

what u are suppose to do is stay on CONTEXT bros, CONTEXT is king. Broza, lets forget trinity aside, as in one of your post that omni this omni that is not needed but scripture that is context only!

in the verses i showed you, did i mention "Jesus Christ had the church becos of His making?"... No, you fail again!

let me state it again for you, vs 15 specifically said church of God not church of Jesus Christ,
then in vs 16, said "Who/which-take your pick-"appeared in the flesh...

vs 15 ...God...
vs 16 And .... who/which appeared in the flesh...

So Take out this 2 verses in context not me

honeychild: @ Mr.Anony
This is the order in which this discussion went:
1. You said Christ shared His father's attributes of omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience.

2. I disagreed with you and gave you some references.

3. barristers joined in with a couple of posts all filled with references

4. You went silent for a couple of days during which I assumed you were at the very least preparing a sound explanation of how those scriptures agree with a Trinitarian God.

5. when you eventually reply you make absolutely no reference to what has been said before.

and that is whibI feel we are not having a productive conversation.

This is inaccurate...

1. Yes I did

2. Yes you did

3. Yes he did

4. Actually it was just yesterday not a couple of days

5. This is inaccurate because I am sure I set about carefully explaining and setting out who Christ is and what it meant for him to take the form of a man. My post addresses your concerns extensively. Read it

hisblud:

permit me to use logicboy's words...fail!
the above u are trying to show is utter fail!!

what u are suppose to do is stay on CONTEXT bros, CONTEXT is king. Broza, lets forget trinity aside, as in one of your post that omni this omni that is not needed but scripture that is context only!

in the verses i showed you, did i mention "Jesus Christ had the church becos of His making?"... No, you fail again!

let me state it again for you, vs 15 specifically said church of God not church of Jesus Christ,
then in vs 16, said "Who/which-take your pick-"appeared in the flesh...

vs 15 ...God...
vs 16 And .... who/which appeared in the flesh...

So Take out this 2 verses in context not me

Now you do err the most because the word "THEOS" was not part of that verse from the originals,not until trinitarians like your type fixed it in after the 4th/5th century............that Is what we define as fraud!!!!!.......why force in the word "THEOS" into were it isn't suppose to be??.....

Verse 15 saying the church of GOD, only means Yahweh is truly the owner of the church,but has given his beloved son to be Lord over it just like I said earlier......

_____________________________
Another problem associated with the "God"
rendering is that if we just keep reading it
would then say that God was justified in
the Spirit. It makes no sense to say God
was justified in the spirit, God was seen by
angels, God was preached among the
Gentiles, God was believed on in the world,
and God was received into glory." One
would have to create quite a theological
spin to have this make any good sense..........

Mr hisblud please try harder............you still haven't answered if anyone has seen GOD.....can GOD be seen??.......has anyone seen GOD??.......let me see if you'll contradict Jesus' words.......

Boomark: @Anony

You did not explain 1cor 8:5-6. Or didn't you understand it? Let me bring it home to you.

For to us there is one president, Goodluck and there is but one vice-president, Sambo.
There is nothing here that shows that "one president" consist of Goodluck and sambo.

Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham and of
Isaac and of Jacob, the God of
our forefathers, has glorified His
servant, Jesus, whom you, for
your part, delivered up....

Do you see the one God the israelites worshipped? God the Father is the God of our forefathers. His servant, Jesus is not part of it. Do you disagree with this?

Concerning the confusion trinitarians are having with the term "God", look at zechariah 12:8:

the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them.

the angel of the LORD is like God, which means he is "similar" to God. That is why Michael is the one "who is like God." that Michael is like God does not make him equal to God. He still serve the Father, his God.

God the Father is the God of Jesus Christ, Eph 1:17, Heb 1:9, Rev 1:6.

This is what the bible teach:
One God over all is the Father not 3 persons who are Gods but in one God. Definition of trinity makes no sense according to the scripture.

Try and refute these things because they speak against trinity. Can you? And let your analogy fit into something real not abstract or unrealistic.

I gave a response to honeychild a few posts above. I think you should take the time to read it. Also you keep misrepresenting Trinity. God is not 3 Gods. God is one multi-personal being.

ijawkid:

The translations are not even my problem.....you are my problem........you have been dubious through out this discussion.....-i'm still waiting for you to give me the reason why you would use Jesus' activities on earth to support your stance that he is the almighty or equal to the almighty,but prevent me from doing the same.....I'm still waiting for you to tell me how we would discard Jesus' human life in this discussion and still try to find out who Jesus really was.....you can as well tell us to discard the whole new testament and focus on the old testament.......if that happens the trinity dogma still won't stand......

Dubious? I don't think so. I have shown you clearly from Philipians that Christ is equal to God but he humbled himself and became a man.
Even Isaiah when he prophesies in Isaiah 9:6 says that the child that will be born will be God. What more do you want?

________________________________
Talking about translation wahala even if we go by the kjv rendition as regards 1 timothy 3:16,how does it still prove that Jesus is God the almighty or equal to the almighty GOD??.....is GOD any bodies name??......did the apostle say GOd the almighty became manifest in the flesh............can the almighty be seen??.......is it possible to see GOD??..........eh mr anony??......

Exactly: Nobody has seen God but we have seen Him in the flesh. Jesus Christ.

_____________________________

The reason why I digressed into translation issues was because that rendering of 1 timothy 3:16 in the kjv has even been discarded by fellow trinitarians as spurious....I was just letting hisbud know about it...........

From my experience with you, anything you don't agree with is automatically spurious.

ijawkid:

Now you do err the most because the word "THEOS" was not part of that verse from the originals,not until trinitarians like your type fixed it in after the 4th/5th century............that Is what we define as fraud!!!!!.......why force in the word "THEOS" into were it isn't suppose to be??.....

Verse 15 saying the church of GOD, only means Yahweh is truly the owner of the church,but has given his beloved son to be Lord over it just like I said earlier......

_____________________________
Another problem associated with the "God"
rendering is that if we just keep reading it
would then say that God was justified in
the Spirit. It makes no sense to say God
was justified in the spirit, God was seen by
angels, God was preached among the
Gentiles, God was believed on in the world,
and God was received into glory." One
would have to create quite a theological
spin to have this make any good sense..........

Mr hisblud please try harder............you still haven't answered if anyone has seen GOD.....can GOD be seen??.......has anyone seen GOD??.......let me see if you'll contradict Jesus' words.......

To start with, the THEOS am refering is in v15 not in v16!

And i stated emphatically, that in the "correctly rendered" NIV, the "He" in vs16 is "Hos" which in greek means "who/which". Thus apply your logic to it using the above first as i have stated.

am not changing from the 2 verses,by bringing in another verse so am still on 1 tim 3:15-16.

Now i have asked you to discard the word "trinity". Now in verse 16 it says in the "correctly rendered" NIV, 1 Tim 3:16 Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith:

Look closely at the bolded, what do you see/read!*