ijawkid:

Boomark you know true2God has not been sincere with this whole discussion....

All I want from y'all is sincerity...

1...It has been proven with the scriptures and renditions that Jesus was called an angel...

true2god and truthislight erred when they brought up the issue of
JW watchtower and trinity propaganda as a basis for those would not follow the truth.

Concerning (1) above,
Jesus and John were called angels. Some used messengers for both of them. In what sense were both of them called angels? As spirits and ministers of flaming fire(how God made his angels, Ps 104:4) or did they just translate messenger to angel. The two will have to be uniform since they were both called messengers in some translations.

2...It has also been proven that the actions fortold by daniel of the arch angel MICHAEL parallels the exact same actions Jesus would carry out...
________________________

I have also asked a couple of questions that is yet to be answered....


Let's be sincere with ourselves here....the truth is right in front of us....

I stand nothing to gain here except using scriptures to interprete scriptures and establishing truths...

The singular reason why some here would rather die than accept Jesus was called an angel,is because of the trinity dogma......

Many have been dulled by this dogma that they deny clear written truths......boomark you know better....

I congratulate you,frosbel,plappville and a few others who have discarded the trinity dogma...that is even enough for me....

Concerning (2),
the explanation you guys gave is like cut and joining of Dan 12:1-3. Just like what barrister and truthislight did to 1Th 4;16.

If true2god needs to be cleared on trinity, let him chose any existing trinity thread. 2 pages is enough to get him cleared.

Boomark:

true2god and truthislight erred when they brought up the issue of
JW watchtower and trinity propaganda as a basis for those would not follow the truth.

Concerning (1) above,
Jesus and John were called angels. Some used messengers for both of them. In what sense were both of them called angels? As spirits and ministers of flaming fire(how God made his angels, Ps 104:4) or did they just translate messenger to angel. The two will have to be uniform since they were both called messengers in some translations.

And you have still not answered where Jesus came from in contrast to where John came from............

_______________________

Where did Jesus come from??......what was he before he was sent to the earth?? A spirit or a man??.......

what you should be asking is why the other remaining 3 translations rendered JOHN to be a "messenger" but JESUS an ""angel"" although both extracted from the same hebrew $ greek word...........

__________________

I will ask u again...

Where did Jesus come from??....

true2god: Jesus christ is many occassions regarded himself as the 'son of man'. He is right since he was in the flesh, in a human form, therefore he was regareded as a 'son of man'. All man born of a woman is a 'son of man'. But christ asked his disciples who he really was and Peter replied: 'u r the son of the living God'. Jesus is the 'son of the living God'. But as many as receive him he gave power, right, or privilege to become 'a son of God'. That is to say all human beings are 'sons of men' but not all human are 'sons of God'.

To put ur question right, let me say: is it right to worship the 'son of God'? My straight ansa is YES. This is because the father commanded it (Heb 1:. This is a topic for another thread but if my pple insist im wrong we will equally trash it out on dis thread. R u forbidden frm worshippin an angel? Yes.

Now the issue here is this, virtually most bible translation rendered Heb 1:8 as 'worship' except the NWT. The new word translation rendered the verse as 'obeisance'. There is a difference bw 'worship' and 'obeisance'. U worship a deity while pay obeisance (or pay homage as the case may be) to someone u respect or of a highly authority dan u, not necessarily a deity.

Now lets look at this scenario, during the 'cuba missile crisis of 1962', the americans imposed a naval blockade around cuba in order to avoid an in-flow of nuclear arms to cuba. Blockade in an international relation is an act of war. So in order for the american to remove any legal 'quabble' that might result as a result of their action, called 'blockade' Quarantine, so that their action would not be seen as a direct declaration of war against cuba.

Now back to the issue of 'worship' and 'obeisance', if the watchtower's NWT renderes Heb 1:8 as worship, the will be indirectly acceptin the didvinity of Christ, but if rendered obeisance it will read an entirely different meaning and provide a breathing space on their stance on the person of christ. But u can read the book of psalms 45: 6-7 and compare it with wat u hav in hebrew chapter one and draw ur independent concusion. Angels are not to be worshipd, not even angel michael. The 'son of God' can be worshipped.

Thank u.

sorry for d questions but i'm still a bit confused from your end. From your explanation, Jesus as a man can be worshipped even if we are not to worship mortal man because he is the son of God, but cannot be worshipped as an angel? Pls put me through.

pastormustwacc:
This one don pass my power. The thread is getting longer, and filled with so much questions. This thread na can of worms o!

are you a trinitarian yes or no?

Freksy:

1. You worship the father. 2. You worship the son. 3. You pray to the father through the son.

Hmmmm, you direct your worship to two different persons? You pray to the father through the son, do you also pray to the son, if yes, through who, if no, why?

Good one there, this shows how confused one can be when trying to refused a plain scripture. He has ended in mixing up everything

truthislight:

plappville question was "as what did Jesus preexisted as"?

Did you answer her question with that your statement up there? No.

You avoided it since you are a dishonest person.

Why not go back and answer her by saying that Jesus preexisted as the almighty Yahweh?

Are you now ashamed of you trinity doctrine?
Lol.

You are shame of your trinity.

Did you not read Jesus say:
"if you are ashamed of me in this world i will be ashamed of you in my kingdom"?

You are finished.

You denied christ because of your false hood by avoiding to answer a simple question that "if Jesus preexisted, he preexisted as what"?

Now, go ahead and answer let us see.

There are two ways, either Jesus existed as God (Yahweh) or as the "Angel of the Lord". As the OT always reffered him to be.
Anyone who believe Christ pre-existed should be able to tell us if He was Yahweh Himself.

Maryjanee:
sorry for d questions but i'm still a bit confused from your end. From your explanation, Jesus as a man can be worshipped even if we are not to worship mortal man because he is the son of God, but cannot be worshipped as an angel? Pls put me through.

Very good question.........just keep them questions coming and let true2GOD sweat profusely while trying to give a reply......

don123: my question: are all messengers angels?

All spirit creatures are messengers of Yahweh.

All spirit messengers of Yahweh are angels.

The word used in malachi3:1 in reference to John the baptist (meaning messenger/angel) is the same word use for the massaiah (messenger/angel)

^^^
no insult meant at all, just the truth.

As long the angels remain loyal to Yahweh as messenger of Yahweh it is a big credit to them and a honourable thing.

When they refuse to remain as Yahweh messengers their name changes to Demons.

Like it was with the ones that came and marry the daughters of men out of their own volition. Genesis 6.

With that in mind, our lord Jesus christ was the number one messenger of Yahweh always doing the things that was pleasing to the father and will not say/doing anything out of his own initiative like the Demons did.

That is why christ was and is exalted above every other name for having been a good and exemplary messenger of Yahweh.

You and me are to learn from him on How to please Yahweh and have everlasting life

Freksy:

1. Jesus was called a mighty God, according to Isaiah in his prophecy at Isaiah 9:6

2. The fact that Jesus is a mighty God does not negate the truth that he is also the messiah, the mediator, the only begotten son of God, the messenger or angel of God etc.
Recall that Moses was called "God", that did not take away his position as the mediator of the old covenant, the messenger of God, the leader of the people etc.

3. None of your scriptural quotations says Jesus should be worshiped, rather, Psalm 45:7 adds more weight to Malachi 3:1. it refers to Jesus as a "fellow" angel.

"Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king’s enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows". Psalm 45:5-7 - KJV

If I say: your fellow student or your fellow worker, it implies you are a student or worker respectively.

lol
@freksy

good one.


therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows". Psalm 45:5-7 - KJV

who are his fellows? = other angels

any contrary views?

true2god: Jesus christ is many occassions regarded himself as the 'son of man'. He is right since he was in the flesh, in a human form, therefore he was regareded as a 'son of man'. All man born of a woman is a 'son of man'. But christ asked his disciples who he really was and Peter replied: 'u r the son of the living God'. Jesus is the 'son of the living God'. But as many as receive him he gave power, right, or privilege to become 'a son of God'. That is to say all human beings are 'sons of men' but not all human are 'sons of God'.

[size=14pt]To put ur question right, let me say: is it right to worship the 'son of God'? My straight ansa is YES. This is because the father commanded it (Heb 1:. This is a topic for another thread but if my pple insist im wrong we will equally trash it out on dis thread. R u forbidden frm worshippin an angel? Yes.
[/size]
Now the issue here is this, virtually most bible translation rendered Heb 1:8 as 'worship' except the NWT. The new word translation rendered the verse as 'obeisance'. There is a difference bw 'worship' and 'obeisance'. U worship a deity while pay obeisance (or pay homage as the case may be) to someone u respect or of a highly authority dan u, not necessarily a deity.

Now lets look at this scenario, during the 'cuba missile crisis of 1962', the americans imposed a naval blockade around cuba in order to avoid an in-flow of nuclear arms to cuba. Blockade in an international relation is an act of war. So in order for the american to remove any legal 'quabble' that might result as a result of their action, called 'blockade' Quarantine, so that their action would not be seen as a direct declaration of war against cuba.

Now back to the issue of 'worship' and 'obeisance', if the watchtower's NWT renderes Heb 1:8 as worship, the will be indirectly acceptin the didvinity of Christ, but if rendered obeisance it will read an entirely different meaning and provide a breathing space on their stance on the person of christ. But u can read the book of psalms 45: 6-7 and compare it with wat u hav in hebrew chapter one and draw ur independent concusion.[size=14pt] Angels are not to be worshipd, not even angel michael. The 'son of God' can be worshipped. [/size]

Thank u.

To the font size: Scripture tells us that "No one has ever seen God" (John 1:18, Exodus 33:20,John 6:46) So you will agree with me that It was not Yahweh that Joshua spoke with face to face. So Who is this "Messenger" of Yahweh that introduced Himself as Captain of Gods Host and did accepted worship?

Joshua 5: 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

truthislight:

lol
@freksy

good one.


therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows". Psalm 45:5-7 - KJV

who are his fellows? = other angels

any contrary views?

Scripture made plain!

truthislight:

i dont understand what you are actually saying.

Are you saying that the archangel will stand by the side while Jesus will make use of his voice?

Na wao!




confussion gallow.

Which bible/bible portion did you get that ^^^ from guy?
Hmmm!

Have you seen that you can't refute what i said. Your cut and join interpretation was refuted by my explanations step by step. That is how it should be...step by step. I will reproduce it again so that you dump what you believe 1Th 4:16 means.

Christ will not borrow any voice. Unless you are thinking that we don't know that a loud command/shout can be done by voice.

1. With "a" loud command/shout: this is obviously done with his voice. Who do you think he will command? Those that will hear the shout from his voice. The dead will hear his voice and come out.

THE BELOW DENOTES THOSE/EVENTS THAT HIS DECENT WILL COME WITH.

2. With the voice of "the" arch angel: this shows that the arch angel will at that time stand and do his work of which at that time is to protect those that will be gathered from the earth. He will protect them from satan's. Satan would not want the elect to be gathered.

3. With "the" trumpet of God: this will go a long way to prove the things Christ will be coming "with"

Mt 24:31
King James Bible

And he shall send his
angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his
elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven
to the other.

There are angels that bear the trumpet of God and they are what is denoted by "with the trumpet of God."

I hope it is clear now. If you want to prove something make it wholelistic. And not cherry picking of arch angels voice while dumping the loud command/shout and the trumpet of God.

STEP BY STEP

Boomark:



Concerning (2),
the explanation you guys gave is like cut and joining of Dan 12:1-3. Just like what barrister and truthislight did to 1Th 4;16.

.

What has been happening is comparing scriptures with scriptures to arrive at a position......

What daniel saw is not a joke and it applies exactly to Jesus.........

A bible student can't see such clear parallels in the scriptures and act as if he or she never saw it....

That is why I've asked questions to see if you guys can explain scripturally to prove that MICHAEL's actions does not tally with Jesus'...........

1.....Michael was seen standing up in the last days(end times) with great tribulations as a sign of his standing up........(JESUS)' presence in the last days will be marked also by great tribulations....you can read matthwe 24 to see it all...........

2......Michaels standing up in the end times also leads to the dead been raised up and judged into eternal life or damnation.....(JESUS) would do exactly the same thing in the end times..........

3.....Michael has his angels.......Jesus too has his angels..........I wonder what heaven would look like when MIChael or Jesus keeps replicating same actions.........abi them be twins??......
_____________________

Now this is why 1 thesselonians adds everything up..............

If there is any other angel or spirit son of God that has been given the authority to appear in the end to ressurect the dead and judge them apart from Jesus you can tell us.........

From the bible,it is only Jesus who has been given that great authority........
__________________________

According to buzugee my twin bro ""its precept upon precept,here a little there a little.."".......

Lol......

Boomark:
As spirits and ministers of flaming fire(how God made his angels, Ps 104:4)

all the flaming fires are Yahweh's messengers/angels

Yahweh also chose human to be his messengers.

Any body between spirit creatures and human can be a messenger of Yahweh.

It is really a very great thing to be a messenger of the creator of the univers

And that is why the bible says that of all that is born of woman none is greater than John the baptist.
^^^
he was very great.

@ my friend frosbel

was John the baptist greater than Jesus christ?

If no, why?

Boomark:



Concerning (2),
the explanation you guys gave is like cut and joining of Dan 12:1-3. Just like what barrister and truthislight did to 1Th 4;16.

.

What has been happening is comparing scriptures with scriptures to arrive at a position......

What daniel saw is not a joke and it applies exactly to Jesus.........

A bible student can't see such clear parallels in the scriptures and act as if he or she never saw it....

That is why I've asked questions to see if you guys can explain scripturally to prove that MICHAEL's actions does not tally with Jesus'...........

1.....Michael was seen standing up in the last days(end times) with great tribulations as a sign of his standing up........(JESUS)' presence in the last days will be marked also by great tribulations....you can read matthwe 24 to see it all...........

2......Michaels standing up in the end times also leads to the dead been raised up and judged into eternal life or damnation.....(JESUS) would do exactly the same thing in the end times..........

3.....Michael has his angels.......Jesus too has his angels..........I wonder what heaven would look like when MIChael or Jesus keeps replicating same actions.........abi them be twins??......
_____________________

Now this is why 1 thesselonians adds everything up..............

If there is any other angel or spirit son of God that has been given the authority to appear in the end to ressurect the dead and judge them apart from Jesus you can tell us.........

From the bible,it is only Jesus who has been given that great authority........
__________________________

According to buzugee my twin bro ""its precept upon precept,here a little there a little.."".......

Lol......

Boomark:

Have you seen that you can't refute what i said. Your cut and join interpretation was refuted by my explanations step by step. That is how it should be...step by step. I will reproduce it again so that you dump what you believe 1Th 4:16 means.

what?

Na waoh!
I dont understand you o!

@all can any one help me to understand bookmark here?

Boomark: Christ will not borrow any voice. Unless you are thinking that we don't know that a loud command/shout can be done by voice.

1. With "a" loud command/shout: this is obviously done with his voice. Who do you think he will command? Those that will hear the shout from his voice. The dead will hear his voice and come out.

THE BELOW DENOTES THOSE/EVENTS THAT HIS DECENT WILL COME WITH.

2. With the voice of "the" arch angel: this shows that the arch angel will at that time stand and do his work of which at that time is to protect those that will be gathered from the earth. He will protect them from satan's. Satan would not want the elect to be gathered.

3. With "the" trumpet of God: this will go a long way to prove the things Christ will be coming "with"

Mt 24:31
King James Bible

And he shall send his
angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his
elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven
to the other.

There are angels that bear the trumpet of God and they are what is denoted by "with the trumpet of God."

I hope it is clear now. If you want to prove something make it wholelistic. And not cherry picking of arch angels voice while dumping the loud command/shout and the trumpet of God.

STEP BY STEP

what really is your argument and what point are you making or refuting?

Please explain.

see me see trouble o!

one named guy known as true2God accused me barristers of being brainwashed by watchtower(his opinion), and you would think that he had already concluded that im a JW,but below

true2God;to BARRISTERS ....This wat an organization had turn u guys into.

but turned around to my defence again below;

[b]true2God;to fresky...........Since he doesnt buy to ur falshood u cant understand him nau. If he had bought to ur fallacy u would hav been jumping and somersaulting and celebrating ur 'success'. Do u need anyman to validate ur point or the bible?

Confusion break bones CBB. Fela............

@ Boomark

Mt 24:31
King James Bible

And he shall send his
angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his
elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven
to the other.

bolded above are weak proofs that cannot stand any of the next below, [size=18pt]''sound
of a trumpet'' is not the voice that the dead would hear and rise[/size]

john 5:25-29;

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when [size=18pt]the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God[/size]; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear [size=18pt]His voice [/size]

Boomark: Christ will not borrow any voice. Unless you are thinking that we don't know that a loud command/shout can be done by voice.

1. With "a" loud command/shout: this is obviously done with his voice. Who do you think he will command? Those that will hear the shout from his voice. The dead will hear his voice and come out.

THE BELOW DENOTES THOSE/EVENTS THAT HIS DECENT WILL COME WITH.

2. With the voice of "the" arch angel: this shows that the arch angel will at that time stand and do his work of which at that time is to protect those that will be gathered from the earth. He will protect them from satan's. Satan would not want the elect to be gathered.

3. With "the" trumpet of God: this will go a long way to prove the things Christ will be coming "with"

Mt 24:31
King James Bible

And he shall send his
angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his
elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven
to the other.

There are angels that bear the trumpet of God and they are what is denoted by "with the trumpet of God."

I hope it is clear now. If you want to prove something make it wholelistic. And not cherry picking of arch angels voice while dumping the loud command/shout and the trumpet of God.

STEP BY STEP

Christ will not borrow any voice. Unless you are thinking that we don't know that a loud command/shout can be done by voice.
1. With "a" loud command/shout: this is obviously done with his voice. Who do you think he will command? Those that will hear the shout from his voice. The dead will hear his voice and come out.

My broda na waoh for you ooo, u still never finish with this matter? Christ no borrow anything, Na him own voice be that
Ok, now here is a question! Who's voice is like a trumpet? John said it was the first voice which he had heard before.

The Archangel's voice and the trumpet of God are two aspects of Christ's commanding shout. If you read "au debut" of REVELATION
Jesus will shout with the voice of th archangel since He has been the Chief Messenger and His voice is also a trumpet-like according to John.


Read Revelation 1:10-18 verse (10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me,
saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."

This is clearly Jesus who speaks with a loud voice and his voice is compared with a "trumpet". Jesus' voice sounds like a trumpet!
Compare this with these two different passages, you will see that. One passage refers to Christ's voice as waking up the dead; but, the other passage refers to the trumpet of God as waking up the dead. Please try and See (John 5:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-57.)

One text says the dead will hear the voice of Jesus. But, the other text says that it is at the last trumpet that the dead will rise.

Both re describing thesame event but they are describin the "shout Jesus" gives differently.
The voice mentioned and the trumpet of God must be two aspects of Christ's same commanding shout.

truthislight:

are you a trinitarian yes or no?

No

Do not be deceived brethren by the JW stance on this specific issue.

It is blasphemy to suggest that an angel was sent to die for the sins of mankind.

Only a MAN could undo what the First Adam has spoilt and that Man was the Messiah, the Christ and the Son of GOD.

He was not GOD or an angel , rather he came as a MAN , died as a MAN , and is glorified as the first MAN as Son of GOD , to defeat Sin and Death.

Do not be deceived, angel worship is s serious error.

Boomark: Christ will not borrow any voice. Unless you are thinking that we don't know that a loud command/shout can be done by voice.

1. With "a" loud command/shout: this is obviously done with his voice. Who do you think he will command? Those that will hear the shout from his voice. The dead will hear his voice and come out.

THE BELOW DENOTES THOSE/EVENTS THAT HIS DECENT WILL COME WITH.

2. With the voice of "the" arch angel: this shows that the arch angel will at that time stand and do his work of which at that time is to protect those that will be gathered from the earth. He will protect them from satan's. Satan would not want the elect to be gathered.

3. With "the" trumpet of God: this will go a long way to prove the things Christ will be coming "with"

Mt 24:31
King James Bible

And he shall send his
angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his
elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven
to the other.

There are angels that bear the trumpet of God and they are what is denoted by "with the trumpet of God."

I hope it is clear now. If you want to prove something make it wholelistic. And not cherry picking of arch angels voice while dumping the loud command/shout and the trumpet of God.

STEP BY STEP

This particular verse is not really about the ressurection, it's about gathering of the "chosen ones". It corresponds to Revelation 7:1-4 with more details -- "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”"

The "four winds" are held until the "chosen ones" or "elect" are sealed or gathered.

There's no basis to suggest that other angel's voice is involved in the resurrection as stated in 1 Thess 4:16 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God , and the dead in Christ will rise first".

John 5:28 --"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice" clearly shows the voice to be Christ's.

Now the "trumpet call of God" in 1 Thess 4:16 is likely also directly from Christ, shown below from the book of Revelation.

Revelation 1:10-14
New International Version (NIV)

10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet , 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man ,[a] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

true2god: The person of chrsit had never been ambigous. There is nowhere the Bible assumed or called the person of Jesus an angel but a watchtower interpretation\belief instilled on their members without any right to question its authority. It is only a watchtower desperation to erase the divinity of christ, the light is gettin brighter falsehood.

Now my questions are:
Can any angel worship angel? No.
Were all angels asked to worship the Son? Yes (Heb 1:6. U cant worship someone with no divinity)

Did God at anytime make a vow or decree to ANY angel 'u r my Son, this day hav i beggotten u'? No.
Did God at anytine decreed Jesus as his Son? Yes (Psalm 2:7, Heb 1:5, psalm 110:5)

Is any angel the brightness image of God's glory and express image of God's person. Non
Is christ the brightness image of God's glory and express image of God's person? Yes (Heb 1:3, John 1:14, John 14:9, col 1: 17)

Did the father call any of the angels God or Mighty God? No
Did the father call the Son God or mighty God? Yes (isaiah 9:6, 1tim 3:16, Heb 1:9, psalm 4: 6,7)

To WHICH OF THE ANGELS did God say at anytime (angel michael inclusive, cos simple english WHICH OF THE ANGELS simply means ALL ANGELS) 'sit at my right hand till i make ur enemy thy footstool? None
Did God ask the Son to sit at his right hand? Yes (Heb 1:13, psalm 110:1)

The issue here is not Barrister, truthislight,ijawkid, etc. The issue is the watchtower organization dat brought this brainwashment and muddlin together incoherent and unrelated verses to muddle-up simple and plain bible teachin. Angel michael played his role in the scriptures, especially among the isrealites and prophets of old. Arch angel michael is still an angel just as an accountant general is still an accountant. The repeated assertion, by the wriiter of hebrew, 'TO WHICH OF THE ANGELS' is a simple collective for the words 'All the angels' (no exception). The writer was plain enof and in a simple term that all angels (arch angel michael inclusive) to worship the Son. A honest person who do not want to be deliberatelt deceived by any organization will understand this simple english. Neither do i think there is any rule of exception here.

If any1 of u guys go out today or to orrow for a publishin work, open the book of Hebrews chapter 1 for the person and ask him to read it indepednetly without usin the watchtower magaine, then ask the person if the son is an angel or not and get his\her response.

The issue of 'jesus christ the arch angel michael' fallasy can only be bought by a gullible mind who closed the Bible frm himself and open the watchtower magazine as an alternative. Cos no unadulterated truth can come out of the watchtower magazine, it will keep changing (light will continue getter brighter in falsehood)

Jesus did not become Jesus until He took on humanity. A caterpillar that turns into a butterfly.
Yes, it is thesame insect however after metamorphosis it is forever changed. So we call it by different names.

At one time, the Son of God was known as Michael the archangel, according to several Scriptures posted in this thread.
Now, that He has been made in the likeness of men, He will always be Jesus, the Lamb of God who came down ad was made in the flesh to die for our sins.
He is now the anointed of God. So your Hebrew qoutation fits.

Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I hope you can see that Jesus has a new name and at the name of Jesus every knee should bow. . .?

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name "will" be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 KJV

Also in Rev, we see tht Jesus will have a new name that He did not have before. Jesus will write on the righteous, His new name.

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God.
And I will write on him My new name. Revelation 3:12

Do you know this New name already? And why a new name again?

You will discuss with everyone in honesty if you can stop pointing at the watchtower and the JW.
I am not a memeber of both denomination. And i believe many of us are not. We are here to discuss bible not a particular church.
This can derail the thread and we will end up missing the aim of it.
Go to the bible for support of your qoutes and let the other organizations be.

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frosbel: Do not be deceived brethren by the JW stance on this specific issue.

It is blasphemy to suggest that an angel was sent to die for the sins of mankind.

Only a MAN could undo what the First Adam has spoilt and that Man was the Messiah, the Christ and the Son of GOD.

He was not GOD or an angel , rather he came as a MAN , died as a MAN , and is glorified as the first MAN as Son of GOD , to defeat Sin and Death.

Do not be deceived, angel worship is s serious error.

Where did He come from?

frosbel: Do not be deceived brethren by the JW stance on this specific issue.

It is blasphemy to suggest that an angel was sent to die for the sins of mankind.

Only a MAN could undo what the First Adam has spoilt and that Man was the Messiah, the Christ and the Son of GOD.

He was not GOD or an angel , rather he came as a MAN , died as a MAN , and is glorified as the first MAN as Son of GOD , to defeat Sin and Death.

Do not be deceived, angel worship is s serious error.

It is greater blasphemy to go against the scripture to deny that a spirit being had his life miraculously transfered to the womb of Mary to be born as a human Jesus, to die for mankind's sins. Once born on earth, he was human. Prior to being born, Jesus was undoubtedly a spirit being, still carrying out God's work.

John 1:1-3 -- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made".

John 1:14 -- "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 6:62 -- "Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?"

Prov 8:30 -- "Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence"

plappville:

Where did He come from?

Asylum mayhaps, and did not read the thread from the begining, just jumped in like a lunatic

@true2god, In addition to your Hebrews passages on why Angels are ordered to worship Jesus if He was an angel.

In Hebrews we can see that when God puts the "firstborn" into the world, that He says to the angels to worship Him!

(NIV) Hebrews 1:4-9 Having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than "Your companions."


Jesus has all the privileges of the "first born". We know that in ancient Israel, first born had the privilege of representing the Father.
When Jesus came to this world, He came to reveal "God's glory" :

John 14:9) (Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?.

We have seen that Jesus was with the Father Before He came to earth, God made Him much better than the Angels, And He got a more excellent name
than the Angels.

TroGunn:

It is greater blasphemy to go against the scripture to deny that a spirit being had his life miraculously transfered to the womb of Mary to be born as a human Jesus, to die for mankind's sins. Once born on earth, he was human. Prior to being born, Jesus was undoubtedly a spirit being, still carrying out God's work.

John 1:1-3 -- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made".

John 1:14 -- "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 6:62 -- "Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?"

Prov 8:30 -- "Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence"

This our bro Frosbel has been rejecting plain scriptures, It seems He has the final
interpretaion of the scripture in NL. These passages has been posted before Him severally, but He continue to keep blind eyes to them.
I have learnt alot from him in the past, but today, I'm afraid, He has a new doctrine outside the bible.

Bros Frosbel, i have got one passage for you soon !!!!

Meanwhile, seems the "mighty angel" in Revelation 10:1-3 may also refer to Jesus Christ.

Revelation 10:1-3 -- "Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke".

This obviously "strong messenger" (according to Young's Literal Translation) has characteristics that seem to match in so many ways to Jesus as described in Revelation and other parts of the Bible.

a) Comes in a cloud . Revelation 1:7 describes Jesus as coming in a cloud --“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”;and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.

b) Face like the sun . Rev 1:16 describes Jesus face as the sun --"In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance".

c) legs like fiery pillars . Revelation 1:14-15 says of Jesus --"The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace , and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters".

d) voice has roar of a lion . Revelation 5:5 says Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah -- Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

e) his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land (meaning great authority over all). Psalm 8:5-6 9 (Hebrews 2: 6-8 ) -- "You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet". Only Jesus has been granted such authority.

f) a rainbow above his head - The rainbow is an emblem of peace. Christ is the "Prince of Peace" - Isaiah 9:6

plappville:

This our bro Frosbel has been rejecting plain scriptures, It seems He has the final
interpretaion of the scripture in NL. These passages has been posted before Him severally, but He continue to keep blind eyes to them.
I have learnt alot from him in the past, but today, I'm afraid, He has a new doctrine outside the bible.

Bros Frosbel, i have got one passage for you soon !!!!

I can go on lenghty debates , but my schedule is very busy these days.

I will address this in greater detail in the coming weeks.

For now, I can assure you that Jesus Christ is not Angel Michael, this is a flawed position which by the way was not an original doctrine of JW when they first started.

It is totally unbiblical.