truthislight:

its your word Gainst this:

Darby Bible Translation
Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts.

So simple.

Keep fighting the bible.

if the bible is ur final authority den wat do u make of Isaiah 9:6 where the son is called the mighty God. If the bible does not conflict on dis issue and made it clear that the son is greater dan the angels and all angles (includin michael) is expected to worship him den ur argument does not hold water. Read the account of the involvement of angel gabriel on the new covenant dat broght the news to the house of zecharaiah.

Dnt pull wool over my eyes in a watchtowerly way.

true2god: The entire verse has no place in their funny doctrine, only the 'voice of the arch angel' makes meaning to dem. If u ask any1 of dem to explain the significance of dat particular verse and the entire chapter they will start talkin funny. They wont tell u straight.

Is christ coming back to raise the dead and take the living up in the air? They will start rig-ma roaming twisting and squeezin out falsehood without independedent reasning but will start giving a tailored\programed response rehearsed frm the assembly halls. Tufiakwa!

Let them tell their ignorant members dat Jesus is arch angel Michael. Thank some of dem dat had brought that this issue with me in my house got dissapointed wen i pointed their falsehood to their face.

do you know the bible?

You dont even know what the bible teaches, but see how proud you are.

On this thread who can you take on a debate and come out victoriouse?

Since you are a master of the bible can you start refuting the issues here and stop talking about your self?

Any of the person you see on this board will trash you in particular when it comes to what the bible says, but they have been very humble while you are here boasting.

Keep your pride and start learning.

true2god: This is the issue i hav with some of u guys. U r here apologizin to me for callin me a cathlic and yet u r not sure if i am a catholic or not. Whether u hav met u somewhere on dis forum, even after tellin u i am not a cathlic yet u r not sure. Na wa 4 u ooo.

Thats the same way u guys apply to bible doctrines. U r not always sure of wat u r saying, as long as a doctrin comes frm watchtower thats wat u go for, no qualms, whether true or false. Whether the same doctrine will be de-validated as false tomorrow as soon as JW light gets brighter on dat issue.

Scroll back and read my analysis of malachi 3:1 u will see my stands on it. One messenger was to prepare the way for another messanger. One messanger comes with the spirit of Elijah (John the baptist) and the other messanger comes as a messiah (Jesus christ), filles with holy spirit. So non of the two is an angel. Dont believe lies and dnt propagate lies.

You can start by deleting the original words used in malachi...........and I have been asking,what are spirit messengers of GOD called??...........did Jesus come from heaven or NOT??.......

The truth is in front of you,coupled with translations that chose to use the word ""angel"" to butress the salient points @ hand...............

We all know JOHN was a human,who nevÉr pre-existed,while Jesus did pre-exist.....

Now kindly tell me what your problem is with the way the greek aÑd hebrew wÓrds are rendered in that malachi....??............

If Jesus is a servant of GOD I wonder what prevents him from being an(angel) or a messenger of GOD......hÓpe you know who a servant is??...the trinity has over shadowed you......its a pity....

true2god: This is the issue i hav with some of u guys. U r here apologizin to me for callin me a cathlic and yet u r not sure if i am a catholic or not. Whether u hav met u somewhere on dis forum, even after tellin u i am not a cathlic yet u r not sure. Na wa 4 u ooo.

Thats the same way u guys apply to bible doctrines. U r not always sure of wat u r saying, as long as a doctrin comes frm watchtower thats wat u go for, no qualms, whether true or false. Whether the same doctrine will be de-validated as false tomorrow as soon as JW light gets brighter on dat issue.

Scroll back and read my analysis of malachi 3:1 u will see my stands on it. One messenger was to prepare the way for another messanger. One messanger comes with the spirit of Elijah (John the baptist) and the other messanger comes as a messiah (Jesus christ), filles with holy spirit. So non of the two is an angel. Dont believe lies and dnt propagate lies.

You are not been honest with scriptures, especially malachi 3:1!!

true2god: Im mentioning NWT cos dat the the most 'reliable' translation available to JW. U guys believe in its authority dan other translations. True or false. Besides there are many verse whose translations are quite different frm other Bible translations. Read John 1:1 of NWT and compare it with John 1:1 of most translations. Read the account of the criminals that were crucified with christ (christ final statement to the criminal) frm other translations and compare it wit wat u hav in the NWT.dats just a tip of the ice-burg, u will get the message clearer.

Can I ask you just 1 question??....

Has any JW in this forum quoted from the NWT??..........

Since I became a member of nairalanÐ and the religion forum in particular,I have never quoted from the NWT.......

I have used all other translations,just to make sure statements like yours doesÑt come up....but here it is......after being shown lucid scriptures yoÙ resort to shouting watchtower and NWT........

My guy grow up and let's discuss the scriptures.........

I would use all other translations and still make salient points stand out.........

If you have a prÓblem with john 1:1 go to the trinity thread.......

plappville:

You are not been honest with scriptures, especially malachi 3:1!!

Let him keÉp dribbling himself......

Translations that are not the NWT has called Jesus the angel of the covenant or the angel of the testamÉnt,but he's there still shouting NWT as if na NWT I quote from.........
___________________________

His afraid to acknowledge truths that will destroy the trinity dogma he holds so dear.....

ijawkid:

You are such an insincere fellow....I had been asking questions you and some other persons refused answering,rather you keep shouting WATCHtower,kingdom hall,etc....what's your problem......??.

I had told you to juxtapose daniel 12:1-3 with all the scriptures been quoted here.....but it seems you choose to blind fold your eyes.................

What has been happening here is scriptures suPporting scriptures..............

I asked::::

....From daniel 12:1-3.....michaels(prince of Gods people) standing up for Yahwehs people during the time of the end would bring about great tribulations,and there after the ressurection and judgement of those who had died.......

1.....can you tell me if Jesus would replicate these same actions carried out by MICHAEL??
or maybe we'll be having 2 seperate captains carrying out this assignment......
2.....Has any other spirit son or messenger of GOD been given the power to ressurect and judge the dead in the last days apart from JESUS??......
3....Why does Jesus in the first place need to use the voice of the arch angel to ressurect the dead??.....why??.......
4....which other spirit son of GOD was given the power and authority to battle the arch enemy of Yahweh apart from Jesus??......
__________________________

Don't just come here shouting watchtower,use scriptures to counter these points....

The point here is dat even if i explain dis verse to u , u wont take it or learn frm it. No one is teaching me my response, no organization is tellin me a standard response format like the way dey do in ur organization. My question to u is dis, if i xplain dis verses to u will u accept it, think over it?

frosbel:

You are simply repeating what they told you at kingdom school.

Jesus is not angel Michael, abeg !!

which one is kingdom school na?

Why do you hate the JW na?

The spirit from above rejoices with the truth?

You have raise many thread about the JW in this forum and that should be be enough to discussed the JW.

Meanwhile, why do you seem to dislike the JW?

"the spirit of the truth rejoices with the truth"

plappville:

With all the scriptures presented to you, you were not able to cooment on any, all you say here is....Jesus is not archangel. Ok now tell me, do you believe Jesus Pre-existed? if yes, as what? if no, then give us scriptures as prove. Thank you.

I hope u been readin my responses so far. Which scriptures? Malachi 3:1? This verse had been trashed (read my post). I cant repeat myself.

true2god: The point here is dat even if i explain dis verse to u , u wont take it or learn frm it. No one is teaching me my response, no organization is tellin me a standard response format like the way dey do in ur organization. My question to u is dis, if i xplain dis verses to u will u accept it, think over it?

Oya start explaining make I hear na..........

Use the scriptures.......that's d final authority......

If it wasn't for an organization would you have believed in the trinity??.....

Stop acting like you are an independent bible student.....

Oya start answering my questions with the scriptures.....

On your marks,get set,GOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

true2god: I hope u been readin my responses so far. Which scriptures? Malachi 3:1? This verse had been trashed (read my post). I cant repeat myself.

You trashed nothing....all you did was rant.....

Go to the root words used in malachi and stop this childs play.......

plappville:

You are not been honest with scriptures, especially malachi 3:1!!

So i must swallow all the hand-outs from watchtower magazines before i will be honest with the scriptures. Ok lemme ask u a sincere question. Had there been any doctrine taught by watchtower before as true that they currently discard as false? Pls dnt mention xmas, birthday, new yr, easther celebrations to me. I mean bible-based doctrines.

True or false. That will guide me in answerin ur question or accusations here.

truthislight:

which one is kingdom school na?

Why do you hate the JW na?

The spirit from above rejoices with the truth?

You have raise many thread about the JW in this forum and that should be be enough to discussed the JW.

Meanwhile, why do you seem to dislike the JW?

"the spirit of the truth rejoices with the truth"

dislike JW

In the past I raised some articles on JW because I was not 100% aware of all their teachings.

With time, I realised we agreed on many doctrines.

I don't have to accept all the JW doctrines 100% , some of them are okay from my own perspective, others are not.

true2god:

So there is nowhere Jesus was referref to, or regarded, as an angel. But to avoid muddlung things up, we can take ur verse, where watchtower claimed Jesus as an angel , an analyse it one after the other.

Hold while i take up the verses u guys had qouted and do my independent analysis devoid of organizational\official interpretation\misinterpretation.

Wrong!!!!!!!!!!


MALACHI 3:1

"Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts". - DARBY

"Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts". - BBE - Bible in Basic English (modern english)

"BEHOLD, I send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me. And the Lord the Messiah, Whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; the Messenger or Angel of the covenant, Whom you desire, behold, He shall come, says the Lord of hosts". - Amplified Bible.

None of the above quotations is taken from the NWT. They are not quotations from the Watchtowe r.

The italic word, "messenger" refers to John the Baptizer, the forerunner of Jesus Christ.

The bolded word, "angel" refers to Jesus Christ, he is the angel of the covenant or testament.

If you accept the fact that the italic word refers to John the Baptizer, what scriptural reason would you give for not accepting the fact that the bolded refers to Jesus Christ?

No messenger or angel is greater - in terms of age, power and authority than Jesus Christ, hence the title: "an Archangel" - the chief or foremost among the angels, the chief among the message carriers and deliverers.

All angels, including Jesus, are sons of God. All humans are also sons of God, but Jesus alone is the only begotten son - was created directly by his father, then God used him to create others.

Prophetically, Isaiah called Jesus, "mighty God". This title does not take away Jesus' role as God's chief messenger. Moses was called "God", but that never took away or contravened his role as a messenger of God.

welldone guys! what do you expect? they are defeated in their own game! malachi 3:1 translated jesus as an angel, not in NWT but other translations has really caused confusion among them, they got nothing to offer! hear the one that called himself true2God in an effort to derail the tread was accusing JWS for nothing sake instead of facing facts, olodo-adagba-madanu!

true2God

This is the issue i hav with some of u guys. U r here apologizin to me for callin me a cathlic and yet u r not sure if i am a catholic or not. Whether u hav met me somewhere on dis forum, even after tellin u i am not a cathlic yet u r not sure. Na wa 4 u ooo.

there is no apology in ijawkids reply to your post,assuming cheap popularity where you dont deserve is stealing! ole oloju-rogodo!

true2God

This is the issue i hav with some of u guys. U r here apologizin to me for callin me a cathlic and yet u r not sure if i am a catholic or not. Whether u hav met me somewhere on dis forum, even after tellin u i am not a cathlic yet u r not sure. Na wa 4 u ooo.

there is no apology in ijawkids reply to your post,assuming cheap popularity where you dont deserve is stealing! ole oloju-rogodo!

see your frustration below, not even one bible quote!

So ur argument has turn to voice. This is a straw man's argument dat holds no water biblically. All in a desperate attemp at propagatin ur 'new light' frm watchtower org, not frm the bible.

My quextion now to u is this, does watchtower ,or u, believe dat christ will come with 'the voice' of the arch angel and the dead in christ shall rise first, den the believers alive will meet the Lord in the air accordin to dat verse u've just quoted. I mean both of us only should exchange messages base on dis verse u listed up the 'voice of an arch angel' as ur meaning the voice of the son.

@Boomark

Boomark:

(a) 1 Thess 4:16 - "For the Lord
himself will come down from
heaven, with a loud command,
with the voice of the archangel
and with the trumpet call of
God, and the dead in Christ will
rise first".

This shows Christ will resurrect
the dead, with ArchAngel's
voice.

So his loud command/shout cannot raise the dead? the trumpet of God also means nothing? Only the arch angels voice that suit what you want will raise the dead.

Please be sincere.

you are the least of person that i ever thought will reason like a babe above, even when faced with fact! if you have problem with jws it should not affect your judgement,you reason along sentiment rather than facts,

loud command/shout cannot raise the dead? the trumpet of God also means nothing?

no, all these above were not eligible according to the bible but only 'the voice'

John 5:25-29
New King James Version (NKJV)
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear [size=18pt]the voice [/size]of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which [size=14pt]all who are in the graves will hear His voice [/size]

[size=18pt]only 'the voice' [/size]is mentioned here twice, [size=14pt]not loud command/shout or the trumpet[/size]!

be sincere if you truly knew sincerity! you seemed like a silent snake, if not in your own quote earlier in ''bible cc'' about daniel 10:13, you claimed that you use NWT while it wasnt even among the 15 translations, that is mischevious brother.stop that.

@Boomark

May be we have to wait until they explain why the called john the Baptist and Jesus angels at the same time. There are so many messengers across the bible. We will have to bring them up and call them angels too.

Until then you are not suppose to chose one that favoured you when you have failed to explain the other.

just tell me that you are shocked to the brim when you saw jesus beign reffered to as an angel,

remember that when i fisrt qupted malachi 3;1 you denied seing angel there and could boast that no bible translation could use angel, but when you saw the last two translations, that rendered jesus as angel,havent i answerd your question? you switch to me to explain why a particular bible was written? anyway jesus was reffered to as an angel,mal 3:1. pls belly the shock, i can understand,ehn!

BARRISTERS: @Boomark



just tell me that you are shocked to the brim when you saw jesus beign reffered to as an angel,

remember that when i fisrt qupted malachi 3;1 you denied seing angel there and could boast that no bible translation could use angel, but when you saw the last two translations, that rendered jesus as angel,havent i answerd your question? you switch to me to explain why a particular bible was written? anyway jesus was reffered to as an angel,mal 3:1. pls belly the shock, i can understand,ehn!

Jesus was never referred to as an angel, this is your personal interpretation.

frosbel:

Jesus was never referred to as an angel, this is your personal interpretation.

Guy, I don't understand you again...oo. Do you mean BARRISTERS was the translator of DARBY, BBE (Bible in Basic English), Douay-Rheims Bible, Amplified Bible etc that all refer to Jesus as angel at Malachi 3:1?

true2god: So i must swallow all the hand-outs from watchtower magazines before i will be honest with the scriptures. Ok lemme ask u a sincere question. Had there been any doctrine taught by watchtower before as true that they currently discard as false? Pls dnt mention xmas, birthday, new yr, easther celebrations to me. I mean bible-based doctrines.

True or false. That will guide me in answerin ur question or accusations here.

You fÓrgot to add the trinity,tithing,immortality of the soul,Étc....

My brother you sound like someone who is hurt.............

I'll rather advice you to start discarding false doctrines right now instead of looking at the past of JW's..........

The JW's are light years ahead of you when It comes to propagating and adhering to sound bible doctrines...............

Start by discarding the greatest scam of christendom..."THE TRINITY"".........

If you get mind sha........

truthislight:

so christ will go borrow a voice that is greater than his own when he has been made higher than all person in heaven and on earth to resurrect the dead, Abi?


Will christ need to borrow the archangels voice or the archangels voice is his own because he is the archangel?

No. The greatest voice right now is the voice of the arch angel's and it is the voice of christ not because he borrowed it but that it is his own voice.


That is the truth.

Christ will not borrow any voice. Unless you are thinking that we don't know that a loud command/shout can be done by voice.

With "a" loud command/shout: this is obviously done with his voice. Who do you think he will command? Those that will hear the shout from his voice. The dead will hear his voice and come out.

THE BELOW DENOTES THOSE/EVENTS THAT HIS DECENT WILL COME WITH.

With the voice of "the" arch angel: this shows that the arch angel will at that time stand and do his work of which at that time is to protect those that will be gathered from the earth. He will protect them from satan's. Satan would not want the elect to be gathered.

With "the" trumpet of God: this will go a long way to prove the things Christ will be coming "with"

Mt 24:31
King James Bible

And he shall send his
angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his
elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven
to the other.

There are angels that bear the trumpet of God and they are what is denoted by "with the trumpet of God."

I hope it is clear now. If you want to prove something make it wholelistic. And not cherry picking of arch angels voice while dumping the loud command/shout and the trumpet of God.

BARRISTERS: welldone guys! what do you expect? they are defeated in their own game! malachi 3:1 translated jesus as an angel, not in NWT but other translations has really caused confusion among them, they got nothing to offer! hear the one that called himself true2God in an effort to derail the tread was accusing JWS for nothing sake instead of facing facts, olodo-adagba-madanu!

Barrister 'the genius', the bible is not confused about the person of christ but Jw do. Can u pls compare the person of christ in Isaiah 9:6?

Ok lemme help u in ur personally induced confusion as taught u by watchtower organization:
1) Jesus was 'prophetically' called mighty God, which means he might not truly be a mighty God in real sense (isaiah 9:6)
2)Jesus was also called an messanger, the bible cant and did not give a conflictin account on a person of christ( malachi 3:1). Remember the accounts or activities of angel gabriel heralding christ coming
3) Heb 1: 8, ALL angels ar ask to worship the son compare this to isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, psalm 45: 6-7).

My question to u in the above verse is dis, as a genius u r and i, olodo, accordin to u, was the son directly called God or not? Did the father ask ALL angels to worship the son or not? Are angels made to be worshipped? If God forbade the worship of angels either by man or angels, will God ask the angels to worship the Son? Is there anywhere in the bible an angel refused worship, cos an angel, no matter hw highly placed, is not meant to be worshipped?

My guy if u cant ansa this questions dat shows u r a clown, followin the watchtower's bi-monthly hand-outs without doing ur independent assessment? If u can ansa those question i can take u a bit serios.

BARRISTERS: true2God

there is no apology in ijawkids reply to your post,assuming cheap popularity where you dont deserve is stealing! ole oloju-rogodo!

If u r a Barrister truely both u and ur client ar already in Jail on dis matter (lol). This is not a professional way to defend a client, who after admittin an error apologized and at the same time not sure of himself whether he had met me or not.

This wat an organization had turn u guys into. A sincere xtain will apologize to his fault, swallow his pride and move on. Paul curse some1 in the scriptures and wen he was told the person he cursed is a highly placed individual he immediatelly apologized and begged for forgiveness. Are u teaching Ijawkid the right thing or a bad thing. I tot u were a genius and i am an olodo. Tufiakwa!

BARRISTERS: @Boomark



just tell me that you are shocked to the brim when you saw jesus beign reffered to as an angel,

remember that when i fisrt qupted malachi 3;1 you denied seing angel there and could boast that no bible translation could use angel, but when you saw the last two translations, that rendered jesus as angel,havent i answerd your question? you switch to me to explain why a particular bible was written? anyway jesus was reffered to as an angel,mal 3:1. pls belly the shock, i can understand,ehn!

Nobody is shocked anywhere but only JW, dnt be myopic my guy. Nobody, cos nowhere in the Bible remotely or directly Jesus was called an angel. I heard this fallacy first in 2004 and i trashed it squrelly with the pedllers. Try ansa my questions i asked u earlier before spewing ur kingdom hall tailored 'shocked' cos that is one of the key words u r taught to use anytime u seem to bambooz ur ignorant prospect.

frosbel:

Wrong.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Who makes his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: - Psalm 104:4

A messenger can either be an angel or a MAN.

A man is never called an angel or vice versa.

Angels are extraterrestrial beings !

this means you are not following what is being said in this "class".

This have been addressed already.

Freksy:


Guy, I don't understand you again...oo. Do you mean BARRISTERS was the translator of DARBY, BBE (Bible in Basic English), Douay-Rheims Bible, Amplified Bible etc that all refer to Jesus as angel at Malachi 3:1?

Since he doesnt buy to ur falshood u cant understand him nau. If he had bought to ur fallacy u would hav been jumping and somersaulting and celebrating ur 'success'. Do u need anyman to validate ur point or the bible? U dnt need frosbal or any1 to accept ur lies.

ijawkid:

You fÓrgot to add the trinity,tithing,immortality of the soul,Étc....

My brother you sound like someone who is hurt.............

I'll rather advice you to start discarding false doctrines right now instead of looking at the past of JW's..........

The JW's are light years ahead of you when It comes to propagating and adhering to sound bible doctrines...............

Start by discarding the greatest scam of christendom..."THE TRINITY"".........

If you get mind sha........

The four i mentioned above are the basic defense response u guys giv anytime u r accused for changin ur belief system and u knw they r not in the bible. I need to ask u a question, had there been anytime that Jw were asked to worship the son, together with the father? Let start frm there.

true2god: Barrister 'the genius', the bible is not confused about the person of christ but Jw do. Can u pls compare the person of christ in Isaiah 9:6?

Ok lemme help u in ur personally induced confusion as taught u by watchtower organization:
1) Jesus was 'prophetically' called mighty God, which means he might not truly be a mighty God in real sense (isaiah 9:6)
2)Jesus was also called an messanger, the bible cant and did not give a conflictin account on a person of christ( malachi 3:1). Remember the accounts or activities of angel gabriel heralding christ coming
3) Heb 1: 8, ALL angels ar ask to worship the son compare this to isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, psalm 45: 6-7).

My question to u in the above verse is dis, as a genius u r and i, olodo, accordin to u, was the son directly called God or not? Did the father ask ALL angels to worship the son or not? Are angels made to be worshipped? If God forbade the worship of angels either by man or angels, will God ask the angels to worship the Son? Is there anywhere in the bible an angel refused worship, cos an angel, no matter hw highly placed, is not meant to be worshipped?

My guy if u cant ansa this questions dat shows u r a clown, followin the watchtower's bi-monthly hand-outs without doing ur independent assessment? If u can ansa those question i can take u a bit serios.

i have been following this thread, and i find it interesting. I am not a JW, but until today, i didnt know there was a scripture where Jesus is referred to as an angel..but Malachi quoted above makes it clear. Jesus is referred to as the "son of man" in d bible at least i have seen that before, dnt knw where. Is it ok to worship the "son of man"?

@Boomark

With [size=18pt]the voice of "the" arch angel: this shows that the arch angel will at that time stand and do his work of which at that time [/size]is to protect those that will be gathered from the earth. He will protect them from satan's. Satan would not want the elect to be gathered.

bolded above, you clearly denied[size=18pt] forcefully[/size] 'the voice' of the archangel which jesus possesed! you rendered his 'voice' impotent and invalid in your opinion. thats clear heresy! the passage is clear!

Mt 24:31
King James Bible

And he shall send his
angels with[i] a great sound
of a trumpet[/i], and they
shall gather together his
elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven
to the other.

this bible verse does not give any credence to your case, it lacked substance,and unfortunately sound of trumpet is not 'the voice' note pls

note pls

(a)1 thess 4:16....''jesus will come with the archangels voice''

(b) john 5 25-29 ''the dead will hear the 'voice' of the son of God.

jesus was not referred to as coming 'along with the arch-angel' but 'with the voice of archangel' instead of arch angel as the focus here it was the voice, so jesus possesed that voice of archangel. note that fact.

frosbel:

Wrong.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Who makes his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: - Psalm 104:4

A messenger can either be an angel or a MAN.

A man is never called an angel or vice versa.

Angels are extraterrestrial beings !

you shouted "wrong!"

what is wrong in this statement you shouted at:

TroGunn:

Jesus did not consider it demeaning to carry out his Father's wishes. Why do people think it insults Christ to obey God and act in whatever capacity God wants him to (even if that capacity is to command God's holy angels) when Christ himself said: "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me". - John 5:30?

you see your life!

You will see bible portion and say it is wrong because you dont have respect for the word of God the bible.

Did not Jesus said he will do nothing of his own initiative? Yes he did, but frosbel said wrong and posted scriptures that are irrelevant on the topic at hand.

Did any body said that angels are not ministers? No.

But frosbel will just keep being a source of confussion here.

Well, his antics are clear for all to see.

He feels it will destroy his doctrine that christ never preexisted.

I wander what the value of his contribution on this thread has been so far.