babaearly: i can see overcoming the dissident in action here as i.chuka and Bidam don run comot.

@Goshen
i like the way you make christianity simple, and not the bogus religion we are witnessing today. thats how its suppose to be, liberty.

@Jesoul
why cant you send something like this to seun for the frontpage since you find it interesting. dont you think many of these pastor worshipping, church going nigerians need to read this? try and make an effort to curtail christians excesses with threads like this.

Goshen360:

i.chuka, thank you for bringing this up. When I was a baby Christian back then in Lagos. In the prayer warrior, we often use this verse, Revelation 12:11 and we repeatedly plead the blood. What Revelation 12:11 is saying is that we (Christian) walk in the victory that had been done by the blood. You will agree that this very verse is a future event and yet, it says we overCAME (already done). It is not we pleading it time and time again that gave the victory, it is the lamb of God and that was done. Satan is already defeated, we only walk in the victory that Christ obtained for us by the blood.

Second, If you don't agree with what am saying, it's okay but let's look at it from another angle. If I plead the blood yesterday by faith to defeat the devil and his angels, it will mean they should be defeated or they are defeated when I pleaded the blood yesterday. While pleading the blood again today and tomorrow if the one pleaded yesterday worked.

When Jesus resurrected he said, "ALL powers in heaven and on earth had been given to me"....Long story short, Satan, his cohorts and the evils of the world had already being defeated and we don't defeat them by ourselves but THROUGH Christ, that is, through the victory that Christ had already done for us. We exercise and walk in that victory!

English Standard Version (©2001)
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. - I John 5:4

Our faith in what? - In the finished work and victory of Christ. Christ obtained everything on our behalf. We walk in it by faith and Apostle Paul says, "we walk by faith, not by sight".

English Standard Version (©2001)
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. - I Corinthians 15:57

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I write unto you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because you have known the Father. I John 2:13

i.chuka:


You are right,the devil is a defeated already,and we(christains) are victorious in Him already.
For These victory to be effective DAILY in our lives,we have to stand continually on the finished work of Calvary.Satan has to be remained constantly that he has been defeated 2000yrs ago.that is our only ground of victory and Satan's only ground of defeat.
Since we still wrestle against principalities and powers..Ephn6:12,our only hope in defeating/overcoming them is by the blood of the Lamb,the word of God,andy living a selfless life..Rev12:11.
We can't battle Satan and his agents without the blood,that's our only ground of victory.
And the Lord said unto Moses,yet will l bring one plague more upon Pharaoh and upon Egypt,afterward he will let you go hence....Exodus11:1.
Even God too has ONLY ONE plague that can completely destroy the works of Satan, the blood of the Lamb.without the blood God has nothing over Satan.
Satan is not afraid of our preaching the word,infact he can even preach the word more than some MOG's.he's only afraid of the sacrifice of Calvary been presented to him.

plappville: Sometimes i just wonder the kind of force they use in manipulating thier congregations
Is it not thesame Bible they read that we read? yet some church doctrine contradict the Scripture, and members are just confortable with it.

alexleo:
you sound so foolish. Who is talking about best church here? My church dont engage in such pracice. Period. Wether you believe it or not doesnt change anything.

Goshen360:

My dear brother, Ephesians 6:12 doesn't list the blood of Jesus among the weapons of our warfare. One thing I do in my study is that I ask question. I ask the Holy Spirit questions and if you do this often, you will be amazed how things will be revealed to you - try it. There is a always a reason for instructions. The blood of Christ, the bible says it was done ONCE and for all times. We are not the high priest but Christ. It is only the high priest that pleads the blood inside the tabernacle and Hebrews says Christ had entered the tabernacle and offered once and for all.

The foreshadow of this act in the OT is that, the OT priest offer and plead the blood repeatedly and yet, it doesn't do the things expected but in the case of Christ, it was done once and perfected forever.

i.chuka:

Put on the whole armour of God,that ye may be able to STAND against the wiles of the devil.......that ye may be able to WITHSTAND in the evil day,and having done all,to STAND.STAND therefore..Ephans6:11-14.
Without standing on the ground of Calvary/victory our armory is useless in battle.
As long as there's an accuser that accuses us daily...Rev12:10.
The Blood is ever active and present to overcome every of his accusation...Rev12:11.
Morning bro.

Goshen360: 3. The Practice of Church branches remitting all tithes and/or resources to the headquarters by controlling God's people.

New International Version (©1984)
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. - II Corinthians 3:17

Under the Apostolic move, many churches were planted by Apostle Paul but none of this churches planted ever had to remit tithe and collections to Jerusalem or Apostle Paul headquarters International. Such practices in today's end-time church is an anti-Christ practices. It is a witchcraft spirit of controlling and manipulations. The pastors are controlled from the headquarter church and have to take permission for virtually everything they had to do

Mr_Anony: @Goshen, there are a few you have not yet mentioned namely:

1. Altar calls (repeating the sinners prayer after an evangelist does nothing to save a soul)
2. Special deliverance prayer (after Christ has paid the price)
3. Special baptismal classes before getting baptized
4. The practice of praying for the death of enemies.
5. Treating Holy Ghost baptism as if it is an attainable level (Christians who speak in tongues are not more christian than those who don't)
6. The practice of "mummy and daddy in the lord"
7. The practice of "7 steps to......" i.e. the practice of giving unnecessary meaning to numbers. 7th July 2007 (07/07/07) is not necessarily a special day and 6th of June 2006 (06/06/06) is not a bad day.
8. The practice of making vows i.e. "God if you do x, I will do x" (God is our Father not a business partner)
9. The idea of pre-tribulation rapture.
10. The idea that a christian can go into a trance and lose control of himself/herself because he or she is "under anointing"
11. The practice of drinking and bathing in "anointing oil" for protection. (this to me is a fetish practice)

e.t.c. e.t.c.

frosbel:


Hmm, quite worried I agree with you here

Mr_Anony: @Goshen, there are a few you have not yet mentioned namely:

1. Altar calls (repeating the sinners prayer after an evangelist does nothing to save a soul)
2. Special deliverance prayer (after Christ has paid the price)
3. Special baptismal classes before getting baptized
4. The practice of praying for the death of enemies.
5. Treating Holy Ghost baptism as if it is an attainable level (Christians who speak in tongues are not more christian than those who don't)
6. The practice of "mummy and daddy in the lord"
7. The practice of "7 steps to......" i.e. the practice of giving unnecessary meaning to numbers. 7th July 2007 (07/07/07) is not necessarily a special day and 6th of June 2006 (06/06/06) is not a bad day.
8. The practice of making vows i.e. "God if you do x, I will do x" (God is our Father not a business partner)
9. The idea of pre-tribulation rapture.
10. The idea that a christian can go into a trance and lose control of himself/herself because he or she is "under anointing"
11. The practice of drinking and bathing in "anointing oil" for protection. (this to me is a fetish practice)
12. The practice of making up stories and justifying them with "thus saith the Lord"

e.t.c. e.t.c.

debosky:

I disagree with this - while it is not right to control and manipulate people/local congregations, there is nothing wrong in a group of churches deciding to support a 'central' church body with their offerings or looking to such a 'central' body for guidance. The elders in Jerusalem provided guidance to other churches as described in Acts 15. Paul did make collections from a variety of churches to support a need in Jerusalem.

The key here is manipulation and control - as long as there is willing submission to the authority of a central body and there is no manipulation involved, churches are permitted to organize themselves as they deem fit, as long as this does not contradict the Word of God.

samsy5460: [color=#770077][/color]
Matthew 5:44 So, where did
all this “Anybody who is planning my death, fall
and die” come from? Jesus Christ taught us to
forgive those who hurt us, ““I tell you, not
seven times, but seventy-seven times.”
Matthew 18:21-22 and He even taught us to
remind our Heavenly Father about our having
forgiven others who offended us when we
prayer. [Read the Lord’s Prayer at Matthew
6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4] Where does the “any
evil arrow sent in my direction, back to the
sender” chime come in? These scripture show
that back-to-sender is anti-Christ.
How is it an occultic stunt? If someone sends
evil your way, it is definitely not the Holy Spirit
or angels that are meant to execute it. It has
to be demons. So, if you are communicating
with demons and sending them on errands to
other human beings, it means you are a
demonist, a diabolical person and one who
operates in the spirit realm using demons to
execute his instructions or wishes is an
occultist. A Christian who does this is no better
than the person who sent the evil to him in the
first place. If it is witchcraft, returning it is an
act of witchcraft.

Goshen360:
The RCCG commands ALL their branches to remit ALL tithes to the headquarters without a single dime left to the parishes to fund their expenses. As you can see, this is no longer the case of supporting the "central" church but a case of control, law and bondage. There is a centralized system in operation that has taken away the freedom of believers. Yes, the branches can "support" the "central" when in need and vice versa but when it becomes a "must" on all time basis. We do not have such practices among the Apostles. I don't know if I'm communicating well but I'm trying to put it in the best way I can.

debosky:

Firstly, I'm not sure this is completely accurate, especially for parishes outside Nigeria, but I won't focus on this case and instead will talk about the principle.

If a 'parish' was 'established' with the principle that it would remit all tithes back to the HQ, and the members agree to this, then it isn't control/manipulation in my view. The key here is how the decision to remit funds is reached and the willingness of members of the fellowship to adhere to such decisions.

As no one is compelled to be a pastor/church member in RCCG or any other church group for that matter, individuals who are not in agreement with this centralised pooling of funds, they are free to fellowship where they have independence in their finances.

I agree the Apostles didn't follow the organisational structure/funding arrangements seen today, but that doesn't make it necessarily wrong.

I'm just wary of imposing my personal view on others - if others choose to pool their funds, so be it.

babaearly: @Jesoul
why cant you send something like this to seun for the frontpage since you find it interesting. dont you think many of these pastor worshipping, church going nigerians need to read this? try and make an effort to curtail christians excesses with threads like this.

Goshen360: On the highlight,

Since you agree we do not have such Apostolic practices, then I think it will be wrong for us practicing such. These Apostles are the examples for the New Testament church. I do not want you look at it from the angel "maybe" I'm trying to force my "personal opinion" on folks. The issue is whatever is not enlisted in our constitution (The Bible) and especially when we do not have such examples from men that first walked with Christ and wrote to, preserving the faith by the Holy Spirit, we should be careful doing contrary to scriptural examples.

Second, the issue is not whether the parishes agree to the terms to remit all tithes to headquarter or not. Off course, they will not disobey authority(ies) but what the authority does is unscriptural. It is not the members who agrees but the pastor installed follows whatever comes from the headquarter. As you know very well, the members are taught to just pay the tithe and forget how the money is being managed. I won't like to mix things up here. Please understand it is not the money now but the practice of opening a church branch for the purpose of feeding the headquarter or mother church. This is no where found among the Apostle. It is an evil I have seen in the body of Christ.

JeSoul: You should know I have nothing to do with >90% of the 'christian' threads that make the homepage. The supermods scan all sections and pick threads they want. And we all know that controversy sells - hence why fiery topics always make it on, simple rule of advertising.

Occasionally I submit a thread to them for consideration - but I refrain most times from submitting good, quality ones like these because the influx of juvenile 'home-page' posters tends to ruin good topics. Quantity is not necessarily quality. It is better to wait for the thread to develop (Goshen to finish his series) and then submit it.

Cheers bro.

debosky:

I do not subscribe to such a narrow view - there are many things the apostles were not recorded as doing, such as collectively owning the building where they met together to worship - is that wrong? The principle is what we should examine.

In principle, making collections (be it 10, 20 or 100%) for a central office/person to use on behalf of the congregation is scriptural - Paul requested such collections to be made and the people voluntarily made it. As long as it isn't imposed/forced on people, it is ok. What we need is more transparency from our churches.



It's high time Christians took responsibility for themselves - if your congregation is acting in a way you do not agree with, then speak up about it/leave - don't be dogmatic in everything.

In many cases it's simply two parts of the body supporting each other - the HQ supports the local churches - setting up costs, sunday school books, teaching material, devotionals, conventions etc. so it's only natural the branches support in return as members of one body. I agree that opening up of branches purely for feeding cash back to the centre is wrong.

We can discuss this separately if you wish and I don't mean to derail your thread, so please continue your edifying teaching.

debosky:

I agree that opening up of branches purely for feeding cash back to the centre central is wrong.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, This one of the most spectacular scripture twisting exercise I have seen in quite some time.

+1 like from me. The twisting here is so wonderful that it deserves a "like" for effort.

wordthots: @ bro Goshen, great stuff!
So happy dat God is raisin up men in dese last days...so many practices n doctrines in d present day church have bn unquestioned for years. I believe the word is our standrd and it should always be given first place. The fact that a doctrine is practiced by lots of churches n has bn practiced for years doesn't make it right.