You read your own nonsense and ask yourself why you deserve a greater reward than Abraham, Elija, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, John the Baptist, Isaiah . . . men who actually did something more than just sit on nairaland misquoting the bible.

So because our reward is greater than those of the Old Testament, they do not receive there reward at all.  Look, in the passage they already have their reward, they are in Heaven.  But because we are Christian and presumably persevere till the end our reward will be greater.  What are you talking about?  My original statement still stands.

Old Testament Heroes ----> Jesus Resurrection -------> Old Testament Heroes receive reward (we will receive greater) -------> Hebrews written

I don't understand what your saying. I see you didn't go and check what other scholars had to say about that passage, lol fine.

Omenuko:

The rosary is not an obligatory prayer in the Catholic Church.  One does not have to pray the rosary to make it to heaven.  It is only a devotional tool and prayer (among many) that some people use to reflect on the Gospel.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Cest fini. Simple question, simple answer . . . no need to scream across the screen.

Pls see the other questions i asked. thanks

Omenuko:

So because[b] our reward [/b] is greater than those of the Old Testament, they do not receive there reward at all. Look, in the passage they already have their reward, they are in Heaven. But because we are Christian and presumably persevere till the end our reward will be greater. What are you talking about?

Here is Hebrews 11:39-40 again 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Those verses are talking about a PROMISE not a REWARD. It is failure to carefully read what the bible actually says that makes us quote nonsense. Where did it talk of recieving a greater reward there?

Verse 39 said the heroes of faith recieved not the promise . . . what promise? If you bothered to read from Heb 6 at least (like i've been saying all along rather than relying on footnotes) you shld be able to decipher that it was the same promise Isaiah prophesied about in Is 9:6.

Now verse 40 says we obtained the promise (God provided a better thing for us) . . . what was it? Same thing the OT heroes missed! The perfect sacrifice of Christ's blood on the cross of calvary.

I reiterate, read through the entire chapter of Hebrews . . . from begining to the end it talks about why the promise of Christ's sacrifice on the cross was needful and why we shld be grateful, those of us who have been counted worthy to have recieved this promise that men like Abraham did not get.

No talk of reward there!

Omenuko:

My original statement still stands.

Old Testament Heroes ----> Jesus Resurrection -------> Old Testament Heroes receive reward (we will receive greater) -------> Hebrews written

I don't understand what your saying. I see you didn't go and check what other scholars had to say about that passage, lol fine.

I dont check scholars . . . it is the reason you think "promise" means "reward". such a shame since Hebrews has been banging on this promise since chapter 6 at the very least.

1. however i still am a bit puzzled as to where in the scriptures specific prayers are asked of us and are supposed to be counted on beads.

2. there is talk that St Mary appeared to St Dominic to encourage its use, do you know the biblical stance on the dead appearing to the living?

3. Isnt prayer a form of communication with God and not a strict form of ritual?

Answer 1:  The beads are to keep pace of the time period used to contemplate/meditate on a particular mystery.  It also is a way to count the number of prayers the individual wishes to pray.

Answer 2:  Catholics are not required to believe in any post Bible apparitions or appearances of saints.  I personally don't put to much stock into appearances by saints.  But, many people do and are encouraged in their faith and that is always good.

Answer 3:  Yes

Omenuko pls read Chapter 6 of Hebrews . . . it contrasts two "promises" there . . . the "promise" of the "only begotten son" Isaac who Abraham was to sacrifice . . . it juxtaposes this with the GREATER PROMISE  . . . that of the sacrifice of Christ as the only begotten son of God on the cross . . . so we might obtain a better promise.

Where did you see "reward" in ur own copy of Heb 11?

Omenuko:

Answer 1: The beads are to keep pace of the time period used to contemplate/meditate on a particular mystery. It also is a way to count the number of prayers the individual wishes to pray.

I remember a simple prayer by the publican in the bible . . . Luke 18:13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Simple, sincere, from the heart and it was accepted of him. What is the biblical significance of using beads to "meditate"? What is the spiritual significance of the recitation of standard prayers? Counting the number of prayers? Where did Christ teach this?

Omenuko:

Answer 2: Catholics are not required to believe in any post Bible apparitions or appearances of saints. I personally don't put to much stock into appearances by saints. But, many people do and are encouraged in their faith and that is always good.

How can you be "encouraged in your faith" by something that is clearly frowned upon by the bible?

Omenuko:

Answer 3: Yes

good. Question 3 crossed out.

Haba . . . aunty calm down. this is an apalling lie . . . ordinary 1 Corinthians 13 talks about the virtues of Charity. Haba . . . this is unbecoming.

Clap for yourself, so  something is actually getting to your brain, so after I quote that particular one for you, you learned, I am very proud of you.

I need to quickly learn how to quote with te person's name above it so that I can show everyone where it is you asked for me to show you where the virtues were taught by the apostles.

Now clap for yourself, oya kpa kpa kpa kpa kpa kpa, again again kpa kpa kpa kpa kpa kpa, again again kpa kpa kpa kpa kpa kpa kpa, Good for you, you have learned the lesson of the day.

Now what other virtues are there? common you know this one, common common common you know it, you know you know this one, in case you didnt learn the other ones I posted for you, hint hint, one has to do with working hard and not being lazy, it is in the scripture, remember scripture? you love it don't ya, now look to it and it will show you the virtues.

The scriptures Jesus used to preach? - Did i not quote this for you? - Luke 4:16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

  17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

  18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

  19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

  20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

  21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears

so did Jesus tell them that the dove came from heaven and rested on him and a voice came down from heaven saying "this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased"
Did he use the scripture to explain the Holy Communion?
Did he use scripture to explain his birth?
Did he use scripture to exlain his death?
Did he use scripture to tell of the Holy Spirit?

Ha you think quoting one thing is enough for you, oh no, see scripture doesn't just include the Old Testament it also includes the New Testament and I am asking you about the New Testament because you have already let us know many times that the Old Testament was done away with.

So please start showing me the scripture that Jesus used to teach the New Testament. Show me what book his birth was written in that he gave to his apostles to read, show me the book that contained his death that he preached out of, show me the one that contained his baptism that he taught out of, show me the one that he used to teach about the wedding at Cana, show me the one he used to teach that the angel appeared unto his Mother, show me the one that he used to teach on John the Baptist.

Se you like quoting scripture and the rest of us are mugus that don't know anything, so since you sabi, start to teach us.

the scriptures the apostles used? Haba again aunty . . . you don't have to lie

Did Paul state that his letter was scripture, show me scripture that says Paul said his letters are scripture?
How did his letter end up being scripture?

What about the other apsotles, did they write it with him? Which one were they using or was it only the Roman and Phillipians and Corinthians that were Churches, we know Antioch was a church, which one did they use? Because I don't see one letter to the Antiochs in the Bible o.

We know these "scriptures" were the books of the law and the old testament prophets. We also know that Paul actively asked that his letters be distributed around the churches to be read to the saints. I quoted one for you and you ran away to twist it.

I asked you questions about it and I am still waiting on an answer on it. You provided Colossians, but you failed to tell me which scipture they used before the epistle of colossians was written, they had to have been a church before the epistle, so which one was used?
The verse you posted also spoke of the epistle to the Laodicians that were to be shared with the colossians, why isn't it scripture today? Was it not an epistle too, and if Paul indeed wrote the epistles to be scripture why isn't it in your Bible?

Lady, even though we quarrel . . . i would never lie against you . . . it is shameful

Anyone who reads this would be laughing knowing full well that this statement itself is a lie. Look learn to be onest with yourself, I know it's hard to do, we are all human, but at least make an honest attempt not to lie to yourself.

lol Lady . . . nah i'm done with ur usual hysterical rants. When Omenuko is done i will be done as well . . . why i am content is simple . . . i'm not the only one on these boards firmly aware of how low you will go to score a point.

Omenuko came here and with less than 2-3 sentences answered the very questions you struggled to duck on more than 3 threads. No be me and you . . . pilgrim has said the same, queenisha also has the same view about you. If i were in the minority i'd be tempted to take a second look at the venomous rubbish you call a post.

Thanks but no thanks. Only fools argue with mules.

Uncle Omenuko can we get somewhere pls?

Simple, sincere, from the heart and it was accepted of him. What is the biblical significance of using beads to "meditate"? What is the spiritual significance of the recitation of standard prayers? Counting the number of prayers? Where did Christ teach this?

Where did Christ teach against it?

When did counting become wrong?

I remember a simple prayer by the publican in the bible . . . Luke 18:13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

So is this the way we are supposed to pray, is it a command?

How can you be "encouraged in your faith" by something that is clearly frowned upon by the bible?

Where? Show us where it said that the dead cannot appear to the living. Also show us where it says that we cannot use those that came before us as examples, because the Bible is full of using Abraham and Isaac, and Jacob and more as examples, and it was "encourage in your faith" so why wasn't that wrong?

good. Question 3 crossed out.

Do you believe the rosary prayer is a strict formof ritual?

lol Lady . . . nah i'm done with ur usual hysterical rants. When Omenuko is done i will be done as well . . . why i am content is simple . . . i'm not the only one on these boards firmly aware of how low you will go to score a point.

Omenuko came here and with less than 2-3 sentences answered the very questions you struggled to duck on more than 3 threads. No be me and you . . . pilgrim has said the same, queenisha also has the same view about you. If i were in the minority i'D be tempted to take a second look at the venomous rubbish you call a post.

Thanks but no thanks. Only fools argue with mules.

Uncle Omenuko can we get somewhere please?

FINALLY YOU GOT THE POINT!!!

Now don't do unto others what you won't want them do unto you.

But it's amazing for someone who is always screaming scripture scripture and alsways asking for back up, you yourself could back it up.
Point is the scripture is "sacred tradition"

I'm just tired of you disrespecting the Bible = sacred tradition.

~Lady~:

Where? Show us where it said that the dead cannot appear to the living.

when Omenuka asks me this question i will oblige. Until then ma'am u dont exist. All thesve vituperations like you're swallowing a camel wont get u anywhere.

On the flipside, study your bible and show urself (not me pls) where the bible encourages the dead to appear to the living. Infact try and find any examples of such.

~Lady~:

FINALLY YOU GOT THE POINT!!!

yep, the "point" that talking with "lady" is a like speaking to a rock to draw water. A deluded mule cant be saved. Is it any wonder you dont really appear on the other real christian threads because deep down you're empty and spiritually a whitened sepulchre?

~Lady~:

I'm just tired of you disrespecting the Bible = sacred tradition.

To each his own. John 1 tells me the bible is the WORD OF GOD which is Christ Himself . . . if it is nothing but "sacred tradition" to you then good luck.

yes, the "point" that talking with "lady" is a like speaking to a rock to draw water. A deluded mule can't be saved. Is it any wonder you don't really appear on the other real christian threads because deep down you're empty and spiritually a whitened sepulchre?

I can't believe I see the day that David who asks for scripture scripture scripture can't even provide scripture.

What happened to sola scriptura?

To each his own. John 1 tells me the bible is the WORD OF GOD which is Christ Himself . . . if it is nothing but "sacred tradition" to you then good luck.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. Lol, I don't need your luck, I have sacred tradition.

[size=13pt]LOLOLOLOLOL, WOW!!! DAVID CAN'T BACK UP HIS BELIEFS WITH SCRIPTURE!!!! WHOA!!!!![/size]

Saul the King of Israel consulted a spirit medium at Endor; or, didn't he?

He must have known that the practice existed; the Israelites knew as Leviticus and Deuteronomy makes clear.

.

@~Lady~

Those are the same questions I'm asking of Davidylan.  Where in the Bible does it say what scriptures are inspired?  Once we can answer that question then we can move on.  Because my Bible and his Bible are different.  He then posted Tim 3:16.  Davidylan, maybe its me and my eyes are failing me.  But, did you read Tim 3:16?  Let me post it:

All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Where in that verse does the Bible tell me what books are inspired?  Siimple enough question.  Please answer. . . .Just like your celebration of Christmas (no where in the Bible), your celebration of Easter (no where in the Bible), your worshiping on the 'Day of the Sun' (no where in the Bible).  So, in other words. . . .you are following the traditions of men.  Show me where these things are found in scripture.  I don't want essay, biko.

@Nimshi,

Welcome to the thread.  This is what you posted:

Saul the King of Israel consulted a spirit medium at Endor; or, didn't he?

He must have known that the practice existed; the Israelites knew as Leviticus and Deuteronomy makes clear.

   

Deut. 18:10-15 - "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed"

Read those verses again.  What does God forbid?  What do Catholics actually practice.  Give your interpretation of the parts of Deuteronomy and Numbers that condemn prayer to the saints. The Bible teaches us that God has forbidden the practice of conjuring up the dead or necromantic practices.  More to the point, God indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information. We are to look to God's prophets instead. The Catholic Church condemns the above practice of necromancy or calling upon dead people in order to obtain information.  In other words, one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

davidylan:

I remember a simple prayer by the publican in the bible . . . Luke 18:13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Simple, sincere, from the heart and it was accepted of him. What is the biblical significance of using beads to "meditate"? What is the spiritual significance of the recitation of standard prayers? Counting the number of prayers? Where did Christ teach this?

How can you be "encouraged in your faith" by something that is clearly frowned upon by the bible?

good. Question 3 crossed out.

My brother, I told you before the Rosary is not an obligatory prayer for Catholics.  But the rosary is a powerful prayer against ekwensu (the devil).  Regarding the use of the beads; you don't have to use them to meditate on the Gospel.  You can use your clock, fingers, rocks, sticks, toes etc., to keep track of the time.  Have you herd of devotional prayers?  Better yet, have you ever just read the Gospel to meditate on the significance of what Jesus has done for us.  That is exactly what the rosary is.  The significance of the rosary prayers is to meditate on the gospel. 

"What is spiritual significance. . . .Counting the number of prayers?  Where did Christ teach this?"  What, are you serious?  What kind of questions are those?  Get to your point already.  Did Jesus teach us to celebrate his birthday?  Did He teach us to celebrate his birthday on Dec. 25, when scripture scholars have largely agreed that Jesus was not born anywhere near the month of December?  I don't understand these question you are asking me.  I mean, you can quite easily answer them yourself.  Again, the rosay is comprised of a series of prayers; whereby, we meditate or use the gospel as a devotional tool to contemplate the life of Jesus.

Here is Hebrews 11:39-40 again 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Those verses are talking about a PROMISE not a REWARD. It is failure to carefully read what the bible actually says that makes us quote nonsense. Where did it talk of recieving a greater reward there?

Verse 39 said the heroes of faith recieved not the promise . . . what promise? If you bothered to read from Heb 6 at least (like i've been saying all along rather than relying on footnotes) you shld be able to decipher that it was the same promise Isaiah prophesied about in Is 9:6.

Now verse 40 says we obtained the promise (God provided a better thing for us) . . . what was it? Same thing the OT heroes missed! The perfect sacrifice of Christ's blood on the cross of calvary.

I reiterate, read through the entire chapter of Hebrews . . . from begining to the end it talks about why the promise of Christ's sacrifice on the cross was needful and why we shld be grateful, those of us who have been counted worthy to have recieved this promise that men like Abraham did not get.

Are you saying Abraham is not in heaven? When I say reward/promise I mean to say that they are in heaven. When Paul was writing this letter (Hebrews) the aforementioned Old Testament heroes are where?

A. Heaven (Jesus is risen)
B. Hell
C. Some other place

Which is it? And if they were in heaven when Paul is writing his letter are not they (Old Testament Heroes) part of the great cloud of witnesses mentioned in Hebrew 12:1? What exactly are you saying? I'm simply saying that they have received their promise after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Before the resurrection they had not received it. After the resurrection they received it. Paul did write this epistle/letter after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, right?

The Rosary Prayer

The Rosary Prayer: This prayer simply put; is reciting what the Angel of thy MOST HIGH GOD said to our Blessed Mummy, Mother and a beloved Sister.

This act is another way of honouring God's Word and also Showing that the birth of our LORD JESUS CHRIST is Immaculate.

Holy Rosary:
Holy Mother, Hail Mary full of Grace.

God cannot never dwell in an unholy place, Hence Mother(Mummy) is Holy.

If we hounour and shout praise for the Mummy(wives of Pastors, Rev. etc) then we should not forget the origin of Motherhood (Mother Mary, the Vrigin mary, the one through which Christ was born (divine birth). We should also follow her foot steps (for women)

In my own point of view and understanding, rosary is a means of honouring Mother Mary but never worshipping, and most people direct their prayers through her to Intercede for them through his Son JESUS CHRIST

Their Believe:
They Believe that through Mother Mary, as a mother is so dear to the Son; that they will obtain a quick answer for their prayer:


" please do not crucify them"

And if someone says the book is controversial and full of contradicting stories that you have ascribed a way to live one's life, then the person is lying.

And if someone says the book is controversial and full of contradicting stories that you have ascribed a way to live one's life, then the person is lying.

The problem is not with the book, the problem is with the way people interpret the book. That is why Christ established only one Church and gave it authority. That Church still stands today and doesn't have contradictory interpretations of the Bible. But other self-appointed people bring their own interpretations to it, that's where the problem comes in.

Of course there will be others who won't understand, the problem is that they are too prideful, when refuted and corrected they result to calling people worshippers of the devil.

Me and you can read a book and come to different conclusions about what's being said. If it was meant to be read on your own and you come up with a conclusion, all of us would have been at each other's throats (it would be worse than now)

Notice how the Church has no contradiction among 1.1 billion people, we are all in one accord.

Notice how the other churches that established themselves are fighting amongst themselves.

There really is no contradiction, people's interpretations of it are what's contradictory.

How r u?
I prayed for you, you know

@lady
Thanks for the prayers, not to sound too serious but its just all too surreal, everyone striving to show they are right, even in the catholic church is mostly one within it we find many different people who I know are not practising what the church says but surely the protestants have a point and the way I see it these are the options
1 the catholics are right
2 the protestants are right
3 both sects are wrong
I am sticking with the third for now.
Body dey inside cloth just dey wait for pilgrim tory to continue.

@lady
Thanks for the prayers, not to sound too serious but its just all too surreal, everyone striving to show they are right, even in the catholic church is mostly one within it we find many different people who I know are not practising what the church says but surely the protestants have a point and the way I see it these are the options

You're welcome.

I know it seems surreal. The Catholic Church, however does not go attacking the protestant churches, we let them be. When they ask about us, we tell them the truth. Sometimes they accept it, other times they do not. Most of the time they look at us as if we're weird. We move on, then there comes those who appoint themselves pastors spewing rubbish about the Catholic Church. The Catholic church only responds to them and ask them to understand us or respect us. Plain and simple, we're not trying to prove we're right, we just want them to stop spreading lies about out beliefs.
If you don't understand our beliefs just say you don't understand.

You will not find a Catholic that will go to Protestant site and start attacking protestants, catholics are always on the defensive. We don't go looking for trouble, but when trouble finds its way to us, we send it back to where it came from.

We don't have any intention of "proving" ourselves, the protestants are the ones who are always trying to show macho this, macho that. You see them competing against themselves even.
They create threads about which church is better, wth?
They start comparing pastors and can't agree on anything.

How many times have you heard a catholic church with loud speakers having a crusade on the street? Blocking the street and being a nuisance?
We don't have time for that. The mass is not set up that way, and you know it. We don't have to be screaming shamamndjahannaha disturbing everybody.
We're not the ones standing up in the buses and trying to preach to everybody.
We're not the ones screaming "you will go to hell if you don't repent"

Everyone except the protestants have respect for the Church. Because they know we are not the nuisances in the society.
Even if you don't agree with our belief, respect us as we respect you.

Perfect example, the Catholic thread. It was started for the Catholics to fellowship together then all of a sudden here comes Catholic bashers spewing crap about the catholic faith.
Even now after they were driven from the board, david came in there and disrupted our peace, before that it was someone else. They pop in every now and then to spew garbage and leave.

There is not one thread started by the Catholics to attack protestants.

We don't have to prove anything to anyone, but we do stand up for our faith.
We're confident in the truth, we're not the ones trying to prove ourselves, protestants are trying to prove themselves so they come attacking us. We just let them know what's up.

And believe me I don't have a problem keeping someone in check.
It's one thing to bother a catholic, it's another thing to bother a Nigerian Catholic, we hold our ground. The only other nationality that might be worse than us are the Irish.

I am glad you're doing well.

Omenuko:

@Nimshi,

Welcome to the thread. 

Deut. 18:10-15 - "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed"[/b]

Read those verses again.  What does God forbid?  What do Catholics actually practice.  Give your interpretation of the parts of Deuteronomy and Numbers that condemn prayer to the saints. The Bible teaches us that God has forbidden the practice of conjuring up the dead or necromantic practices.  More to the point, God indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information. We are to look to God's prophets instead. The Catholic Church condemns the above practice of necromancy or calling upon dead people in order to obtain information. 

Omenuko: thank you.

My post - and the verse from Deut. in your post - both appear to carry the impression that a seance was a real possibility in the culture of those days. The post was a response to the comment/question: "Show us where it said that the dead cannot appear to the living". I'm not sure this is explicity stated. But the contradiction is present as the rest of my comment below shows with regard to the practice of the dead to intercede on behalf of the living. I am in agreement that what you stated that god condemns.

But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

Don't you think the practice of requesting the dead to pray on behalf of the living could be incompatible with the bible? Let me here declare my ignorance about the Catholic Church's teaching about Mary's current status. Could you tell? This will be important in evaluating this situation. But your comments as above, are clear: praying at a grave, I'D suppose, is to the dead. (Jesus is believed to be alive after the ressurection, so praying to God through Jesus is clearly understanding in the context of the belief). But praying to the dead? That's a tough one. I'd withold comments until you (or a knwledgeable Catholic) clarifies the current status of Mary (and other Saints in general): is she alive right now, in heaven, or not? Is she dead and awaiting ressurection? My understanding of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and a few other bible books clarifies how to treat the dead.

***
This is somewhat related: there's clearly dissent within the Catholic church. Has the Vatican changed positions on the use of contraceptives? Has there been a revision of the practices regarding pedophile priests? (Cardinal Bernard Law is still a wanted man from authorities in the Boston area; he is at the Vatican. Many Catholics are outraged at the fact of his being housed at the Vatican. Just to mention two contemporary issues, ).

.

Don't you think the practice of requesting the dead to pray on behalf of the living could be incompatible with the bible? Let me here declare my ignorance about the Catholic Church's teaching about Mary's current status. Could you tell? This will be important in evaluating this situation. But your comments as above, are clear: praying at a grave, I'D suppose, is to the dead. (Jesus is believed to be alive after the ressurection, so praying to God through Jesus is clearly understanding in the context of the belief). But praying to the dead? That's a tough one. I'D withold comments until you (or a knwledgeable Catholic) clarifies the current status of Mary (and other Saints in general): is she alive right now, in heaven, or not? Is she dead and awaiting ressurection? My understanding of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and a few other bible books clarifies how to treat the dead.

Nimshi

Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne I saw twenty-four other thrones on which twenty-four elders sat, dressed in white garments and with gold crowns on their heads.

The twenty-four elders are the sons of Israel, the twelve tribes the old Israel; and the twelve disciples the new Israel

Revelation 5:8

When he took it the four-living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Here they are offering up the prayers of the holy ones. But they all died. How come they're able to offer up prayers?

As for Mary

Revelation 11:19

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of the covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lighning, rumblings, and pearls of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.

it contines:

Revelation 12: 1-

1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth
3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it ws the huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems
4 Its tail swept away a thid of the stars in the sky and hurld them down to earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

Now there is a general concensus that the child born is Jesus, if Jesus is the child who is the mother? My guess is Mary, since the Mother of Jesus is Mary, and no one else.
There is also the notion that this passage is interpreted as the woman representing the Old Israel, this is true, which also means that Mary represents Israel and Jesus the New Israel.
That explains Mary in heaven.

I am yet to find someone who can explain to me why Jesus would allow his mother to see corruption. Why would he dishonour his mother?

Someone also has to explain to me how Mary can be full with sin, yet God dwelt in her. Or is Jesus not God, and did he not come from her womb? Or is God now able to have anything to do with the defiled?
Can someone explain to me why it is Mary had to be a virgin? What is the significance for her virginity? What does virgin mean?

Something that Catholics believe is that Mary is the ark of the covenant because the Word of God dwelt in her. Now people try to say that she gave birth to Jesus but not the Christ. I always thought Jesus is the Christ. Someone has to explain to me how Jesus as an infant was not God or was not the Christ.


Maybe you will be able to answer the questions and explain it to me Nimshi. Please.


Anyway, there are many reasons why Mary is honoured.

@Nimshi

Don't you think the practice of requesting the dead to pray on behalf of the living could be incompatible with the bible? Let me here declare my ignorance about the Catholic Church's teaching about Mary's current status. Could you tell? This will be important in evaluating this situation. But your comments as above, are clear: praying at a grave, I'D suppose, is to the dead. (Jesus is believed to be alive after the ressurection, so praying to God through Jesus is clearly understanding in the context of the belief). But praying to the dead? That's a tough one. I'D withold comments until you (or a knwledgeable Catholic) clarifies the current status of Mary (and other Saints in general): is she alive right now, in heaven, or not? Is she dead and awaiting ressurection? My understanding of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and a few other bible books clarifies how to treat the dead.

Mathew 27:52-53

And suddenly, the veil of the Sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth quaked, the rocks were split,
52 the tombs opened and the bodies of many holy people rose from the dead, 53 and these, after his resurrection, came out of the tombs, entered the holy city and appeared to a number of people.

Many of the saints (presumably includes Old Testament Saints) were raised from where they were (however you define it; heaven, hell, purgatory, some other place) and went into the city to appear and interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.  Did the people conjure up these saints? No. . . .It is only by the power of God for this miracle to have occurred.  Again, the Catholic Church does not teach the faithful to conjure up the dead to obtain information from them.  But, the dead may interact with the living whenever God so wishes (not by our own power).  When catholics say, 'we pray to the saints', it only means that we ask them (i.e., saints, holy ones, angels) to help us by praying to God for us and with us (through Jesus Christ).  We believe that just as our living brothers and sisters in Christ can pray or intercede for us, so can our brothers and sisters who are in heaven.  Jesus himself, converses with Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration:

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31

1 Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and his brother John and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 There in their presence he was transfigured: his face shone like the sun and his clothes became as dazzling as light.
3 And suddenly Moses and Elijah appeared to them; they were talking with him.

This tells us that:
1. Jesus conversed with Old Testament Saints
2. Definition of converse (conversed, conversing, converses) - To engage in a spoken exchange of thoughts, ideas, or feelings; talk.
[list]
[li]Moses and Elijah had some idea of what was going on here on earth[/li]
[/list]

Peter then says:

4. . . .'Lord,' he said, 'it is wonderful for us to be here; if you want me to, I will make three shelters here, one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.'

Peter proclaimed that what was taking place was wonderful and offered to build them shelters.  Why did Peter not shout out that this was against the Old Testament customs/laws?  They knew Moses and Elijah were dead, abi?  Or did they not?. . . .

So, to answer your question. . . .no, I don't think asking the saints to pray for us is incompatible with the Bible.  On the contrary, I believe God commanded us (the church) to pray for one another.  I believe the practice is very Biblical.  I believe that those who are with God in heaven are more alive then we on earth and because of that they are most righteous.  In the Catholic Church one is not required to pray to the saints at all.  But to us, it would be like me never asking anyone alive to pray for me.  When we use or say the term 'pray' as in, "pray to the saints" we only mean to use it in a secondary since:

To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.

And since saints and angels are in heaven we believe that their prayers are very powerful.  The Bible says that the prayers of the upright are very powerful. We ask them to beseech God (through Jesus Christ) to help us in our times of need.

James 5:16

So confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another to be cured; the heartfelt prayer of someone upright works very powerfully.

@Nimshi,

This is somewhat related: there's clearly dissent within the Catholic church. Has the Vatican changed positions on the use of contraceptives? Has there been a revision of the practices regarding pedophile priests? (Cardinal Bernard Law is still a wanted man from authorities in the Boston area; he is at the Vatican. Many Catholics are outraged at the fact of his being housed at the Vatican. Just to mention two contemporary issues, ).

My friend, there has always been dissent within the Catholic Church, starting from the time of Jesus.  Throughout the 2000 years of church history the Catholic Church has experienced many ups and downs, dissent, controversy, intrigue, heresy (you name it), but fear not because the bible says:

Mathew 16:18

Then Simon Peter spoke up and said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'  17 Jesus replied, 'Simon son of Jonah, you are a blessed man! Because it was no human agency that revealed this to you but my Father in heaven.  18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it.  19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'

The teachings of the Catholic Church in regards to contraception still stands.  As far as the priest scandal, I believe the higher ups have developed programs to prevent and combat it.  I guess we will have to wait and see to determine if its successful or not.  I'm not to knowledgeable on that issue though. . . .Regarding Cardinal Bernard Law, I'm not too familiar with the goings on of that issue either.

Omenuko:

@Nimshi,

My friend, there has always been dissent within the Catholic Church, starting from the time of Jesus. Throughout the 2000 years of church history the Catholic Church has experienced many ups and downs, dissent, controversy, intrigue, heresy (you name it), but fear not because the bible says:

1. there was no catholic church in the time of Jesus.
2. No catholic church existed in the days of the early apostles.
3. The catholic church isnt 2000 yrs.

Desist from decietfully misappopriating what isnt yours.

@Davidylan,

1. there was no catholic church in the time of Jesus.
2. No catholic church existed in the days of the early apostles.
3. The catholic church isnt 2000 years.

Desist from decietfully misappopriating what isnt yours.

My brother, I say we agree to disagree here.  If not, prove me wrong. . . .

Omenuko:

@Davidylan,

My brother, I say we agree to disagree here. If not, prove me wrong. . . .

you make the claim, i simply disproved it by virtue of the fact that it doesnt hold water. its up to you to prove it.
Just a simple question . . . when was Peter Bishop of Rome? I happen to remember that many of Paul's letters were from prison in Rome, how come "Bishop" Peter left him in prison?

One more question - You say the cathlic church has been around since the time of Christ? Where?

Oh one last one . . . remember Paul specifically describing his calling as to the gentiles and Peter to the Jews?

you make the claim, i simply disproved it by virtue of the fact that it doesnt hold water. its up to you to prove it.
Just a simple question . . . when was Peter Bishop of Rome? I happen to remember that many of Paul's letters were from prison in Rome, how come "Bishop" Peter left him in prison?

One more question - You say the cathlic church has been around since the time of Christ? Where?

Oh one last one . . . remember Paul specifically describing his calling as to the gentiles and Peter to the Jews?

I hope the list of Catholic Popes (below) will answer your first and second question. . . .I will try to answer you third question later.

   1. St. Peter (32-67)
   2. St. Linus (67-76)
   3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
   4. St. Clement I (88-97)
   5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
   6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
   7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
   8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
   9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
  10. St. Pius I (140-155)
  11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
  12. St. Soter (166-175)
  13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
  14. St. Victor I (189-199)
  15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
  16. St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
  17. St. Urban I (222-30)
  18. St. Pontain (230-35)
  19. St. Anterus (235-36)
  20. St. Fabian (236-50)
  21. St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
  22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
  23. St. Stephen I (254-257)
  24. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
  25. St. Dionysius (260-268)
  26. St. Felix I (269-274)
  27. St. Eutychian (275-283)
  28. St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
  29. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
  30. St. Marcellus I (308-309)
  31. St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
  32. St. Miltiades (311-14)
  33. St. Sylvester I (314-35)
  34. St. Marcus (336)
  35. St. Julius I (337-52)
  36. Liberius (352-66) Opposed by Felix II, antipope (355-365)
  37. St. Damasus I (366-83) Opposed by Ursicinus, antipope (366-367)
  38. St. Siricius (384-99)
  39. St. Anastasius I (399-401)
  40. St. Innocent I (401-17)
  41. St. Zosimus (417-18)
  42. St. Boniface I (418-22) Opposed by Eulalius, antipope (418-419)
  43. St. Celestine I (422-32)
  44. St. Sixtus III (432-40)
  45. St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
  46. St. Hilarius (461-68)
  47. St. Simplicius (468-83)
  48. St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
  49. St. Gelasius I (492-96)
  50. Anastasius II (496-98)
  51. St. Symmachus (498-514) Opposed by Laurentius, antipope (498-501)
  52. St. Hormisdas (514-23)
  53. St. John I (523-26)
  54. St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
  55. Boniface II (530-32) Opposed by Dioscorus, antipope (530)
  56. John II (533-35)
  57. St. Agapetus I (535-36) Also called Agapitus I
  58. St. Silverius (536-37)
  59. Vigilius (537-55)
  60. Pelagius I (556-61)
  61. John III (561-74)
  62. Benedict I (575-79)
  63. Pelagius II (579-90)
  64. St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
  65. Sabinian (604-606)
  66. Boniface III (607)
  67. St. Boniface IV (608-15)
  68. St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
  69. Boniface V (619-25)
  70. Honorius I (625-38)
  71. Severinus (640)
  72. John IV (640-42)
  73. Theodore I (642-49)
  74. St. Martin I (649-55)
  75. St. Eugene I (655-57)
  76. St. Vitalian (657-72)
  77. Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
  78. Donus (676-78)
  79. St. Agatho (678-81)
  80. St. Leo II (682-83)
  81. St. Benedict II (684-85)
  82. John V (685-86)
  83. Conon (686-87)
  84. St. Sergius I (687-701) Opposed by Theodore and Paschal, antipopes (687)
  85. John VI (701-05)
  86. John VII (705-07)
  87. Sisinnius (708)
  88. Constantine (708-15)
  89. St. Gregory II (715-31)
  90. St. Gregory III (731-41)
  91. St. Zachary (741-52)
  92. Stephen II (752) Because he died before being consecrated, many authoritative lists omit him
  93. Stephen III (752-57)
  94. St. Paul I (757-67)
  95. Stephen IV (767-72) Opposed by Constantine II (767) and Philip (768), antipopes (767)
  96. Adrian I (772-95)
  97. St. Leo III (795-816)
  98. Stephen V (816-17)
  99. St. Paschal I (817-24)
100. Eugene II (824-27)
101. Valentine (827)
102. Gregory IV (827-44)
103. Sergius II (844-47) Opposed by John, antipope (855)
104. St. Leo IV (847-55)
105. Benedict III (855-58) Opposed by Anastasius, antipope (855)
106. St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
107. Adrian II (867-72)
108. John VIII (872-82)
109. Marinus I (882-84)
110. St. Adrian III (884-85)
111. Stephen VI (885-91)
112. Formosus (891-96)
113. Boniface VI (896)
114. Stephen VII (896-97)
115. Romanus (897)
116. Theodore II (897)
117. John IX (898-900)
118. Benedict IV (900-03)
119. Leo V (903) Opposed by Christopher, antipope (903-904)
120. Sergius III (904-11)
121. Anastasius III (911-13)
122. Lando (913-14)
123. John X (914-28)
124. Leo VI (928)
125. Stephen VIII (929-31)
126. John XI (931-35)
127. Leo VII (936-39)
128. Stephen IX (939-42)
129. Marinus II (942-46)
130. Agapetus II (946-55)
131. John XII (955-63)
132. Leo VIII (963-64)
133. Benedict V (964)
134. John XIII (965-72)
135. Benedict VI (973-74)
136. Benedict VII (974-83) Benedict and John XIV were opposed by Boniface VII, antipope (974; 984-985)
137. John XIV (983-84)
138. John XV (985-96)
139. Gregory V (996-99) Opposed by John XVI, antipope (997-998)
140. Sylvester II (999-1003)
141. John XVII (1003)
142. John XVIII (1003-09)
143. Sergius IV (1009-12)
144. Benedict VIII (1012-24) Opposed by Gregory, antipope (1012)
145. John XIX (1024-32)
146. Benedict IX (1032-45) He appears on this list three separate times, because he was twice deposed and restored
147. Sylvester III (1045) Considered by some to be an antipope
148. Benedict IX (1045)
149. Gregory VI (1045-46)
150. Clement II (1046-47)
151. Benedict IX (1047-48)
152. Damasus II (1048)
153. St. Leo IX (1049-54)
154. Victor II (1055-57)
155. Stephen X (1057-58)
156. Nicholas II (1058-61) Opposed by Benedict X, antipope (1058)
157. Alexander II (1061-73) Opposed by Honorius II, antipope (1061-1072)
158. St. Gregory VII (1073-85) Gregory and the following three popes were opposed by Guibert ("Clement III", antipope (1080-1100)
159. Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
160. Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
161. Paschal II (1099-1118) Opposed by Theodoric (1100), Aleric (1102) and Maginulf ("Sylvester IV", 1105-1111), antipopes (1100)
162. Gelasius II (1118-19) Opposed by Burdin ("Gregory VIII", antipope (1118)
163. Callistus II (1119-24)
164. Honorius II (1124-30) Opposed by Celestine II, antipope (1124)
165. Innocent II (1130-43) Opposed by Anacletus II (1130-1138) and Gregory Conti ("Victor IV" (1138), antipopes (1138)
166. Celestine II (1143-44)
167. Lucius II (1144-45)
168. Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
169. Anastasius IV (1153-54)
170. Adrian IV (1154-59)
171. Alexander III (1159-81) Opposed by Octavius ("Victor IV" (1159-1164), Pascal III (1165-1168), Callistus III (1168-1177) and Innocent III (1178-1180), antipopes
172. Lucius III (1181-85)
173. Urban III (1185-87)
174. Gregory VIII (1187)
175. Clement III (1187-91)
176. Celestine III (1191-98)
177. Innocent III (1198-1216)
178. Honorius III (1216-27)
179. Gregory IX (1227-41)
180. Celestine IV (1241)
181. Innocent IV (1243-54)
182. Alexander IV (1254-61)
183. Urban IV (1261-64)
184. Clement IV (1265-68)
185. Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
186. Blessed Innocent V (1276)
187. Adrian V (1276)
188. John XXI (1276-77)
189. Nicholas III (1277-80)
190. Martin IV (1281-85)
191. Honorius IV (1285-87)
192. Nicholas IV (1288-92)
193. St. Celestine V (1294)
194. Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
195. Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
196. Clement V (1305-14)
197. John XXII (1316-34) Opposed by Nicholas V, antipope (1328-1330)
198. Benedict XII (1334-42)
199. Clement VI (1342-52)
200. Innocent VI (1352-62)
201. Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
202. Gregory XI (1370-78)
203. Urban VI (1378-89) Opposed by Robert of Geneva ("Clement VII", antipope (1378-1394)
204. Boniface IX (1389-1404) Opposed by Robert of Geneva ("Clement VII" (1378-1394), Pedro de Luna ("Benedict XIII" (1394-1417) and Baldassare Cossa ("John XXIII" (1400-1415), antipopes
205. Innocent VII (1404-06) Opposed by Pedro de Luna ("Benedict XIII" (1394-1417) and Baldassare Cossa ("John XXIII" (1400-1415), antipopes
206. Gregory XII (1406-15) Opposed by Pedro de Luna ("Benedict XIII" (1394-1417), Baldassare Cossa ("John XXIII" (1400-1415), and Pietro Philarghi ("Alexander V" (1409-1410), antipopes
207. Martin V (1417-31)
208. Eugene IV (1431-47) Opposed by Amadeus of Savoy ("Felix V", antipope (1439-1449)
209. Nicholas V (1447-55)
210. Callistus III (1455-58)
211. Pius II (1458-64)
212. Paul II (1464-71)
213. Sixtus IV (1471-84)
214. Innocent VIII (1484-92)
215. Alexander VI (1492-1503)
216. Pius III (1503)
217. Julius II (1503-13)
218. Leo X (1513-21)
219. Adrian VI (1522-23)
220. Clement VII (1523-34)
221. Paul III (1534-49)
222. Julius III (1550-55)
223. Marcellus II (1555)
224. Paul IV (1555-59)
225. Pius IV (1559-65)
226. St. Pius V (1566-72)
227. Gregory XIII (1572-85)
228. Sixtus V (1585-90)
229. Urban VII (1590)
230. Gregory XIV (1590-91)
231. Innocent IX (1591)
232. Clement VIII (1592-1605)
233. Leo XI (1605)
234. Paul V (1605-21)
235. Gregory XV (1621-23)
236. Urban VIII (1623-44)
237. Innocent X (1644-55)
238. Alexander VII (1655-67)
239. Clement IX (1667-69)
240. Clement X (1670-76)
241. Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
242. Alexander VIII (1689-91)
243. Innocent XII (1691-1700)
244. Clement XI (1700-21)
245. Innocent XIII (1721-24)
246. Benedict XIII (1724-30)
247. Clement XII (1730-40)
248. Benedict XIV (1740-58)
249. Clement XIII (1758-69)
250. Clement XIV (1769-74)
251. Pius VI (1775-99)
252. Pius VII (1800-23)
253. Leo XII (1823-29)
254. Pius VIII (1829-30)
255. Gregory XVI (1831-46)
256. Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
257. Leo XIII (1878-1903)
258. St. Pius X (1903-14)
259. Benedict XV (1914-22) Biographies of Benedict XV and his successors will be added at a later date
260. Pius XI (1922-39)
261. Pius XII (1939-58)
262. Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
263. Paul VI (1963-78)
264. John Paul I (1978)
265. John Paul II (1978-2005)
266. Benedict XVI (2005—)

Omenuko, that is no answer . . . i asked three pertinent questions . . . posting a list of popes (subjective because we have no proof that Peter was ever pope) doesnt help issues.

Now lets look at your pope list - If Peter was Bishop of Rome from 32AD - 67AD and Apostle Paul, whom even Peter acknowledged as a trusted chief missionary to the gentiles was jailed n Rome and killed by Nero around 64-67AD . . . where was Peter all this while?

Why did Paul not acknowledge the Bishop of Rome ONCE in all his letters written from the Roman prison?

Those are the questions bro, posting a list of popes is pointless.

@Davidylan,

Have you herd of St. Peter's Basilica? 

The Basilica of Saint Peter (Latin: Basilica Sancti Petri), officially known in Italian as the Basilica di San Pietro in Vaticano and commonly known as St. Peter's Basilica, is located within the Vatican City. It occupies a "unique position" as one of the holiest sites and as "the greatest of all churches of Christendom".[1][2][3] In Catholic tradition, it is the burial site of its namesake Saint Peter, who was one of the twelve apostles of Jesus and, according to tradition, was the first Bishop of Antioch, and later first Bishop of Rome and therefore first in the line of the papal succession. While St. Peter's is the most famous of Rome's many churches, it is not the first in rank, an honour held by the Pope's cathedral church, the Basilica of St. John Lateran. (See: Status)

Catholic tradition holds that Saint Peter's tomb is below the altar of the basilica. For this reason, many Popes, starting with the first ones, have been buried there. There has been a church on this site since the 4th century. Construction on the present basilica, over the old Constantinian basilica, began on April 18, 1506 and was completed in 1626.[4]

I will come back later to address:
[list]
[li]Peter apostle to the Jews?[/li]
[li]Is the Bible silent about Peter being in Rome?[/li]
[/list]

Question: When I come back and address these issues what will it prove?  You still won't believe the Catholic church is 2000 years old.  You still won't believe in apostolic succession.  You don't even trust that the list I posted of popes is authentic.  Lets start from ground zero: Do you believe Peter was the leader of the early Church?