c.fours:


ROTFL anybody can own a small shack. my mom owned one while she was nursing her kids until she could start back at her regular job.
which kain middle class. LOL. the first world countries we have UK, US etc are not first world countries because each family is doing petty family business.

you need to learn to be able to work collaboratively with others to create economies of scale and therefore produce efficiently.
what igbos lack is that ability to work together. hence their style is very inefficient but in their minds, they are king of the hill
you would think that most companies in nigeria will be igbo owned by now since they boast so much about being businessmen. yet they always start with small shop and end with small shop. rotfl

yorubas are particularly good with the social aspect of business hence we are better with multinational/ coorporation type industries which require a lot of collaborative effort.

When last i checked, Alaba international market remains the biggest not only in Nigeria but also in Africa, it might interest you to know that the great IGBOS owns that market with their petty trading as you said.

asha 80: in nigeria the normal mantra is 'igbos love money'.other nigerians view that as a bad trait hence the believe igbos are bad.so since Gujurats love money as you stated doesn't the logic follow?

all people love money. but the way some people go about their greed can be very nauseating (ex. igbos).

c.fours:


ROTFL anybody can own a small shack. my mom owned one while she was nursing her kids until she could start back at her regular job.
which kain middle class. LOL. the first world countries we have UK, US etc are not first world countries because each family is doing petty family business.

you need to learn to be able to work collaboratively with others to create economies of scale and therefore produce efficiently.
what igbos lack is that ability to collaborate and work together. hence their style is very inefficient but in their minds, they are king of the hill

yorubas are particularly good with the social aspect of business hence we are better with multinational/ coorporation type industries which require a lot of collaborative effort.

Isn't it funny how you mention the U.S. and U.K, what do you think drive the U.S. economy? Large businesses like Walmart who try that contribute (revenue wise) to their company with little taxes and max of 50,000 employees or thousands/millions of SMALL or MIDSIZE BUSINESS like small business owner, U.S. Dept of Labor classifies small business as those with up to 25 employees and make no more than $1million, while midsize if those with up to 250 employees and revenues up to $10million Though the large companies make up about 70% of the revenues, their contribution (from taxes, to employment, community, et al) to the economy is meager. Quote me on it.

I'll leave you to answer that question, then come back with your thoughts.

c.fours:


all people love money. but the way some people go about their greed can be very nauseating (ex. igbos).

Olabode George, bankole, sunday Ehindiro, Tafa Balogun, are all IGBOS and they don't love money.

c.fours:


all people love money. but the way some people go about their greed can be very nauseating (ex. igbos).

you meant esp.not ex. I guess....if only the yorubas in uk that i have seen can emulate your thinking but free money from credit card and nhs scams will not allow that because they will tell you scam crimes pay.

manny4life:

Isn't it funny how you mention the U.S. and U.K, what do you think drive the U.S. economy? Large businesses like Walmart who try that contribute (revenue wise) to their company with little taxes and max of 50,000 employees or thousands of SMALL BUSINESS like small business owner, U.S. Dept of Labor classifies small business as those with up to 25 employees and make no more than $1million. I'll leave you to answer that question, then come back with your thoughts. Though the large companies make up about 70% of the revenues, their contribution (from taxes, to employment, community, et al) to the economy is meager. Quote me on it.

guess you have never heard of the New Deal policies of the 1930s. that was what created the middle class in the USA after WWII.
certainly not petty businesses. petty businesses will not even make you come near any developed nation because such sort of development feeds off of large economies of scale. ex industrial farms vs small backyard farms etc
ex china is advancing today because of its large mass factories. not small independent shop keepers. American then had a much stronger government and over 50% f the labor force belonged to a worker union. wages more than doubled between 1939 and 1944. free education, full employment, higher wages and social welfare benefits are what caused the middle class to expand. petty businesses is usually taken up by unemployed or immigrants who can't find mainstream employment. or women who are also often locked out. I am talking about cities here. things are different in some rural areas.

the Walmarts of today are like the Ford motor company of the early 20th century. The only differnce is that america has a consumer economy today (walmart) as opposed to the manufacturing economy (ford motor plant etc) of the pre 1960 yrs. either way, the economy of this developed nation (and all other developed nations) are driven by big businesses. whether it is production or consumer focused.

what happened was that after WWII, most other coutries were devastated and US was relatively unscathed. but others are now catching up (esp asia) and USA is losing its edge. plus government is much weaker and can't enforce laws against big businesses as it used to.

also, you are arguing against yourself. if small business in USA can be classified as a business making up to $1million.
then most of the petty businesses that exists in nigeria will not even be classified as businesses at all!! $1million is a lot of money.

I've been on nl for about a year now, and from my observation on nl - and reading different Nigerian news outlets only... I noticed Igbos are the most maligned ethnic group in Nigeria... Maybe, only Fulanis and Northern muslims also get maligned like Igbos but it's to a lesser extent - and the reason is understandable... However, as for Igbos, I still don't know why everyone allegedly "hates" them and why negative energy follows them everywhere...

Maybe, it's high time Igbos started looking at the "man" in the mirror and start taking responsibilities for their own actions... I don't know but this is getting too much, to be honest... Or are Igbos really Hebrews/Jews and the lost tribe of Israel This is becoming worrisome and problematic...

I'll like to have a conversation with honest Igbos about the background story of this negative energy and hatred they attract to themselves - this is what your Eze should be doing...

Where's the Eze Ndigbo?? You need to proffer solutions to this unique problem - this is what your job entails, not just posting epistles all over the forum...

Do a background research on where the negative energy stems from and proffer solutions on how to move the Igbo nation/people forward...

shymexx: I've been on nl for about a year now, and from my observation on nl - and reading different Nigerian news outlets only... I noticed Igbos are the most maligned ethnic group in Nigeria... Maybe, only Fulanis and Northern muslims also get maligned like Igbos but it's to a lesser extent - and the reason is understandable... However, as for Igbos, I still don't know why everyone allegedly "hates" them and why negative energy follows them everywhere...

Maybe, it's high time Igbos started looking at the "man" in the mirror and start taking responsibilities for their own actions... I don't know but this is getting too much, to be honest... Or are Igbos really Hebrews/Jews and the lost tribe of Israel This is becoming worrisome and problematic...

I'll like to have a conversation with honest Igbos about the background story of this negative energy and hatred they attract to themselves - this is what your Eze should be doing...

The answer is simple. We keep going back to the civil war. The Igbos fought the rest of Nigerian and lost. That's it. I guess in the next century it will fade away totally. 1970 is really not that far and people who were directly or indirectly involved in the civil war are still alive. They all have to die for the newer generations to start a new chapter.

^ igbos are a nomadic ethnic group. is the reason behind it. it's very obvious
the jews faced persecution because they lived amongst others for centuries yet they refused to assimilate with their hosts and kept themselves separate hence they chose to be target for hatred.
you can say the same for the Roma (gypsies) of europe. although this group are not as well known they actually faced much higher level of hatred than jews that continues to the present day. you can google them to read more about them.

even a yoruba who lives in enugu will face some sort of discrimination. it's just natural thing that happens. I've read books on yoruba land pre-independence and was surprised that the hausa community in SW - ibadan etc (they were mostly traders) also faced a lot of discrimination in their sabon gari (strangers' quarters). there has even been a thread here before with the yoruba community in eastern states (enugu and abia) complaining about marginalization they face. now imagine if a LARGE number of yoruba people (like the igbos) were living outside of yorubaland, won't the discrimination become a bigger issue? won't it seem as if yorubas were hated?

manny4life:

Lol, you mean the same Stats from the NBS office that claimed Anambra to be one of the highest poorest state ONLY FOR the Poverty Alleviation office to counter it as Anambra as the least state with least poverty. NBS till today, haven't challenged it. If you of all people do not know that NBS data is altered, I pity you.

Lol, you forgot that the petty shack (like you put it), aka SMALL BUSINESS is what creates the middle class...lol, I pity you. Continue hating on others and their small business, while they continue to move forward.

Dude, there is no where in the world where small or petty business creates a middle class, working class may be but definitely not the middle class.

shymexx: I've been on nl for about a year now, and from my observation on nl - and reading different Nigerian news outlets only... I noticed Igbos are the most maligned ethnic group in Nigeria... Maybe, only Fulanis and Northern muslims also get maligned like Igbos but it's to a lesser extent - and the reason is understandable... However, as for Igbos, I still don't know why everyone allegedly "hates" them and why negative energy follows them everywhere...

Maybe, it's high time Igbos started looking at the "man" in the mirror and start taking responsibilities for their own actions... I don't know but this is getting too much, to be honest... Or are Igbos really Hebrews/Jews and the lost tribe of Israel This is becoming worrisome and problematic...

I'll like to have a conversation with honest Igbos about the background story of this negative energy and hatred they attract to themselves - this is what your Eze should be doing...

There is no need trying to do a Phd on a common entrance question. There are many good Ibo people. However a small number of them cause problems for the majority.This minority are often Brash,boastful, feral and generally unpleasant. They are not likeable AT ALL and they don't care as long as they make money.It is not peculiar to Nigeria as they also travel abroad in large numbers. Unfortunately in this dimension they not only create problems for Ibos but Nigerians generally. It appears to me that while generally they form a minority of Ibos . They are present on NL in Overwhelming proportions

inufele2:

Dude, there is no where in the world where small or petty business creates a middle class, working class may be but definitely not the middle class.

thank you. you put into one sentence what I wasted my time writing an essay on.

Afam4eva:
The answer is simple. We keep going back to the civil war. The Igbos fought the rest of Nigerian and lost. That's it. I guess in the next century it will fade away totally. 1970 is really not that far and people who were directly or indirectly involved in the civil war are still alive. They all have to die for the newer generations to start a new chapter.

However, it seems the "hatred"/negative-energy isn't going to die any time soon if the internet should be used as a yardstick to judge that... How about Igbos need to know that "one-Nigeria" is just a facade for those at the top, and there's truly no "one-Nigeria" anywhere except on the internet, on TV, in news-media, and on myopic minds... Igbos need to start studying human dynamism, interaction, interoperability, and how tribal people are clannish all over the world...

Heck, even Igbos themselves can use their own ethnic group as a case-study because the Igbo nation isn't a homogeneous one, it's a British creation of different tribal groups, under one umbrella using linguistic similarities... Hence, why certain group within the Igbo nation don't get along - and why certain groups continue to deny being "Igbo."

It's deeper than the civil war, afam...

omonnakoda:
There is no need trying to do a Phd on a common entrance question. There are many good Ibo people. However a small number of them cause problems for the majority.This minority are often Brash,boastful, feral and generally unpleasant. They are not likeable AT ALL and they don't care as long as they make money.It is not peculiar to Nigeria as they also travel abroad in large numbers. Unfortunately in this dimension they not only create problems for Ibos but Nigerians generally. It appears to me that while generally they form a minority of Ibos . They are present on NL in Overwhelming proportions

I actually like Igbo people especially the ones from Enugu - they're the safest... And God knows I get along with Igbo chics better than other naija chics...

Maybe, the "majority" needs to start educating the "minority" on the essence of mutual respect and cultural assimilation... When you're in 'Rome', act like the 'Romans', and stop trying to be domineering and aggressive...

shymexx:

However, it seems the "hatred"/negative-energy isn't going to die any time soon if the internet should be used as a yardstick to judge that... How about Igbos need to know that "one-Nigeria" is just a facade for those at the top, and there's truly no "one-Nigeria" anywhere except on the internet, on TV, in news-media, and on myopic minds... Igbos need to start studying human dynamism, interaction, interoperability, and how tribal people are clannish all over the world...

Heck, even Igbos themselves can use their own ethnic group as a case-study because the Igbo nation isn't a homogeneous one, it's a British creation of different tribal groups, under one umbrella using linguistic similarities... Hence, why certain group within the Igbo nation don't get along - and why certain groups continue to deny being "Igbo."

It's deeper than the civil war, afam...

It's bigger than the civil war but the civil war was a huge catalyst if you ask. me. The reaoson why Igbos are on the recieving end a lot of times is that they are the ones that had to go to other people's land after the civil war and not others coming to their land. It's no fault of ours that were were battled and brought back to start singing one-Nigeria with other Nigerians.

Afam4eva:
It's bigger than the civil war but the civil war was a huge catalyst if you ask. me. The reaoson why Igbos are on the recieving end a lot of times is that they are the ones that had to go to other people's land after the civil war and not others coming to their land. It's no fault of ours that were were battled and brought back to start singing one-Nigeria with other Nigerians.

Afam, you can't keep blaming the civil war - the civil war achieved two things for Igbos... It birthed the Igbo nation in the East, and alienated those with cultural and linguistic affinity with Igbos in the SS(according to Igbo historians)... And since Igbos now have a nation and also know those who don't want nothing to do with them - and why can't they imbibe the culture of mutual respect, and stop believing in the fallacy of "one-Nigeria?" That's the only way you can defuse the imbroglio...

shymexx: I've been on nl for about a year now, and from my observation on nl - and reading different Nigerian news outlets only... I noticed Igbos are the most maligned ethnic group in Nigeria... Maybe, only Fulanis and Northern muslims also get maligned like Igbos but it's to a lesser extent - and the reason is understandable... However, as for Igbos, I still don't know why everyone allegedly "hates" them and why negative energy follows them everywhere...

Maybe, it's high time Igbos started looking at the "man" in the mirror and start taking responsibilities for their own actions... I don't know but this is getting too much, to be honest... Or are Igbos really Hebrews/Jews and the lost tribe of Israel This is becoming worrisome and problematic...

I'll like to have a conversation with honest Igbos about the background story of this negative energy and hatred they attract to themselves - this is what your Eze should be doing...

What you are observing on NL is not a reflection of real life. No one hates the Ibos, at least not Yoruba people. I grew up in Lagos in a diverse n'hood with lots of kids from different backgrounds and we all kicked it together without reference to our ethnicity save for occasional jibes like "omo una"

I personally believe that the war may have damaged the psyche of some of Ibos; hence, the constant whining and bitching, and the constant need to elevate themselves above everyone.
As for the eze, he is a nut head with Nazi like mentality. How anyone of a sound mind would choose that goon as eze is beyond me.

shymexx:

I actually like Igbo people especially the ones from Enugu - they're the safest... And God knows I get along with Igbo chics better than other naija chics...

Maybe, the "majority" needs to start educating the "minority" on the essence of mutual respect and cultural assimilation... When you're in 'Rome', act like the 'Romans', and stop trying to be domineering and aggressive...

Look at the thread above yours They just can't help themselves.The eternal need to "boasts of the biggest manufacturing of West Africa " etc All we are asking themm to do is just STFU sometimes !
Whatever they achieve let IT SPEAK FOR ITSELF. The problem derives from a very strong inferiority complex. Remember the words Achebe used to described how the Ibos who were not exposed to Western Education like the Yorubas quickly caught up with them and left them behind in one short step of activity. You cannot live in peace with anyone if you think and talk that way. Imagine if Dangote was Ibo. No one go hear word again. The fundamental issue is that the Ibo man when on top cares about NO ONE and that includes other IBOS. To some extent it is not a tribal thing. But Other Nigerians won't see it like that. The key thing that has to be learnt is how to calibrate behaviour to accommodate others feelings. We discussed so much about the Ibo issue last week. I doubt very much that an Ibo person can run NL not because they don't have the money but look at all the abuse people throw at moderators and the owner. By now this would have become a Biafra site and most non-Ibos banned.

reporter?:

What you are observing on NL is not a reflection of real life. No one hates the Ibos, at least not Yoruba people. I grew up in Lagos in a diverse n'hood with lots of kids from different backgrounds and we all kicked it together without reference to our ethnicity save for occasional jibes like "omo una"

I personally believe that the war may have damaged the psyche of some of Ibos; hence, the constant whining and bitching, and the constant need to elevate themselves above everyone.
As for the eze, he is a nut head with Nazi like mentality. How anyone of a sound mind would choose that goon as eze is beyond me.

I know it's not "hatred" per-se, but truth be told, most Nigerians can't stand Igbos(from my interactions with Nigerians and what my parents told me)... I jam with Jamaicans/Caribbeans and Asians all the time, but I can't stand some of their repulsive attitude...

As for the useless Eze, he's just a nutter that's using nl to launch his future political career somewhere in Igboland... The guy doesn't care about Igbos and their plight, to be honest..

omonnakoda:
Look at the thread above yours They just can't help themselves.The eternal need to "boasts of the biggest manufacturing of West Africa " etc All we are asking themm to do is just STFU sometimes !
Whatever they achieve let IT SPEAK FOR ITSELF. The problem derives from a very strong inferiority complex. Remember the words Achebe used to described how the Ibos who were not exposed to Western Education like the Yorubas quickly caught up with them and left them behind in one short step of activity. You cannot live in peace with anyone if you think and talk that way. Imagine if Dangote was Ibo. No one go hear word again. The fundamental issue is that the Ibo man when on top cares about NO ONE and that includes other IBOS. To some extent it is not a tribal thing. But Other Nigerians won't see it like that. The key thing that has to be learnt is how to calibrate behaviour to accommodate others feelings. We discussed so much about the Ibo issue last week. I doubt very much that an Ibo person can run NL not because they don't have the money but look at all the abuse people throw at moderators and the owner. By now this would have become a Biafra site and most non-Ibos banned.

Hmmmm... Perhaps, some of their heroes are just bitter and they've transferred the bitterness to this generation of Igbos... The "us" against "them" mentality when in reality Igbos are actually the ones who need the other people the most due to the nature of their way-of-life and how they migrate to other regions...

Igbos need progressive leaders and re-education on how to co-exist with other people...

shymexx:

Hmmmm... Perhaps, some of their heroes are just bitter and they've transferred the bitterness to this generation of Igbos... The "us" against "them" mentality when in reality Igbos are actually the ones who need the other people the most due to the nature of their way-of-life and how they migrate to other regions...

Igbos need progressive leaders and re-education on how to co-exist with other people...

do not be deceived by the civil war yarn this has been going on for ever.What kind of people would as they did,living in the North taunt them about their leaders' murder makiing records and such like. Why did the Sardauna say what he said about them. This boastfulness is intrinsic and they do not realise that singularly is the biggest obstacle to harmony

shymexx:

I know it's not "hatred" per-se, but truth be told, most Nigerians can't stand Igbos(from my interactions with Nigerians and what my parents told me)... I jam with Jamaicans/Caribbeans and Asians all the time, but I can't stand some of their repulsive attitude...

As for the useless Eze, he's just a nutter that's using nl to launch his future political career somewhere in Igboland... The guy doesn't care about Igbos and their plight, to be honest..

Agree with you that some Nigerians detest some Ibos, but it's not borne out of hate. It's just that people in general dislike people who talk smack. Some Ibo folks do not know the meaning of humility, and do not grasp the concept of interpersonal relationship especially in a country like Nigeria where everyone is very protective of their domain.

Wish Ibos would do more of listening and less of talking. And dialogue more with their neighbors instead of brute force that they seem to project. Aggression was appropriate in the early centuries, today aggression is generally interpreted as crudeness. Like you rightly pointed out, Ibos need to do a soul searching and ask themselves tough questions.

reporter?:


Agree with you that some Nigerians detest some Ibos, but it's not borne out of hate. It's just that people in general dislike people who talk smack. Some Ibo folks do not know the meaning of humility, and do not grasp the concept of interpersonal relationship especially in a country like Nigeria where everyone is very protective of their domain.

Wish Ibos would do more of listening and less of talking. And dialogue more with their neighbors instead of brute force that they seem to project. Aggression was appropriate in the early centuries, today aggression is generally interpreted as crudeness. Like you rightly pointed out, Ibos need to do a soul searching and ask themselves tough questions.

They will not you can bank on that rather they will tell you to go to hell , So let us leave that issue. We will continue to respond with the only language they understand

People should love the Igbo spirit.

Even our enemies admire the determination of the Ndigbo to survive anywhere.

Who know of a people after being defeated in a brutal war continue to thrive and keep their heads up high? That is some serious pride. If all Africans had that pride, we would not be the poorest continent in the world.

I love my people rugged sense of individualism.

inufele2:

Dude, there is no where in the world where small or petty business creates a middle class, working class may be but definitely not the middle class.

Read the statement again, then come back with your comment. Besides, go and get the definition of "MIDDLE CLASS" income earners, till then, no comment for you.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@
some of the comment right here are simply pure joke!

some funny creatures and bad bella trying to define who we should be; thats pure nonesense;

right now those bitter clans got the shops in their hand can we now wait to see what they could offer

rubbbish;
rubbish!

as far as Nigeria exist the great Igbo got every right to beat their chest im afraid

now get used to it because they thought they could blow all of us to death in the North by now?

even with the free 419 education they tried but they still failed!

so what u talking about eh

omonnakoda:
It is not just governemnt the attitude of many Ibos when they have power is skewed.Look at you and how quickly you jump to ban people once you have a whiff of power. Look at Rochas and Ubas. The general attitude is to oppress and intimidate those perceived as having less whilst mouthing off we are EGALITARIAN. Ibos will NEVER return home if Nigeria is peaceful because generally other Nigerians are very accommodating to them even more than at home .Fact. [size=15pt]How many Nnewi guys will invest in Aba?[/size]
Ibos have been buying and selling Electronics for more than 30 years at Alaba why have they Not started manufacturing in Nigeria. Simple It is too long term for them and they always have a short term horizon in their business.
The other thing is this you do not say we need to encourage other Nigerians to come to the SE to enhance the spending power of the region.Why ? because they are not welcome is the simple truth?

Do you know alomost half the population of Aba are non-indigenes?
Do you all the Local govt chairman of Aba are also non-indigenes?

c.fours:


guess you have never heard of the New Deal policies of the 1930s. that was what created the middle class in the USA after WWII.
certainly not petty businesses. petty businesses will not even make you come near any developed nation because such sort of development feeds off of large economies of scale. ex industrial farms vs small backyard farms etc
ex china is advancing today because of its large mass factories. not small independent shop keepers. American then had a much stronger government and over 50% f the labor force belonged to a worker union. wages more than doubled between 1939 and 1944. free education, full employment, higher wages and social welfare benefits are what caused the middle class to expand. petty businesses is usually taken up by unemployed or immigrants who can't find mainstream employment. or women who are also often locked out. I am talking about cities here. things are different in some rural areas.

the Walmarts of today are like the Ford motor company of the early 20th century. The only differnce is that america has a consumer economy today (walmart) as opposed to the manufacturing economy (ford motor plant etc) of the pre 1960 yrs. either way, the economy of this developed nation (and all other developed nations) are driven by big businesses. whether it is production or consumer focused.

what happened was that after WWII, most other coutries were devastated and US was relatively unscathed. but others are now catching up (esp asia) and USA is losing its edge. plus government is much weaker and can't enforce laws against big businesses as it used to.

also, you are arguing against yourself. if small business in USA can be classified as a business making up to $1million.
then most of the petty businesses that exists in nigeria will not even be classified as businesses at all!! $1million is a lot of money.

Lol, after all this talk, you've still not been able to answer my question. Again, you called petty business, I laid emphasis on "SMALL and MIDSIZE BUSINESS and used the U.S. as an example. Unless you define for me what petty means, to me, it means minute. I asked you a simple question regarding American economy of early 2000's and not this sermon. I don't care whether govt is weaker or stronger and can't enforce laws against large corps, answer the question with a YES or NO answer, period.

ONCE MORE, MY EMPHASIS TO YOUR RESPONSE WAS ON A SMALL BUSINESS...

Now you see why you're a lil unitelligent, why are you comparing the U.S. with Nigeria? You called U.S. and it's economy, I replied you not to call U.S., and asked you a question which you've been unable to answer because you know the truth.

Comparing a $1million small business in the U.S. is just foolishh and absurd, Nigeria and America do not have same size economy, U.S. economy is about $15Trillion, and Nigeria is about $270billion, that's 54x larger than our economy. Even if we used $1million as a baseline for "SMALL BUSINESS", On a scale of 1:54x, based on a economic comparison, a $1million if scaled down to Nigeria's size will be $19,000 in Nigeria.

Another point is that Nigeria and U.S. have huge disparity in their income or should I say currency levels. At an exchange of 1:154 naira, scale the currency size down by 154 point, you do the math and tell me your results. Does your average petty trader like you suggested make $19,000 (N3million) annually?

Please don't compare U.S. to Nigeria, if you cannot stick to the argument, stay away from it. If you want the question I asked you, I will rephrase it again

BlackPikiN:

Do you know alomost half the population of Aba are non-indigenes?
Do you all the Local govt chairman of Aba are also non-indigenes?

Ignore the fool. He probably has never stepped out of Lagos to even visit Ibadan.

See his ignorance about anything from the East...

EzeUche:

Ignore the fool. He probably has never stepped out of Lagos to even visit Ibadan.

See his ignorance about anything from the East...

i suggest you delete this post so that your parents are not brought into the fray. no one has a monopoly of craze
Just a suggestion to avoid much unpleasantness and derailing of the thread. There is no reason why one should be provoked into calling your innocent parents fool or even worse as is almost certain to follow. Polite suggestion!!