truthislight:

This is after death was cast into the lake of fire in verse 14 of chapter 20 of Revelation.

That is why there is no more death in verse 4 of the next chapter 21.

alexleo:

Yes no more death for the overcomers in the new heaven and new earth. The no more death pronouncement has nothing to do with those who has been cast into the lake of fire in chapter 20. These things are clearly stated there in the scripture. Except you want to mix things up, which is not allowed in this discussion. We have to stick to the scripture bros. Even verse 8 of chapter 21 also mentioned about sinners who are cast in the lake of fire, that is after it had declared no more death in verse 4. No more death has nothing to do with sinners. Thanks.

truthislight:

You are repeating soul two times.

Body and spirit = Soul. Gen 2:7

so, that place is talking about the complete man and his spirituality being kept in God's favour till the end.

truthislight:

Lol. Tatarus means prison.

truthislight:

see what the bible calls death:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6).

frosbel: To support the erroneous position of eternal torment , we have to define death as something else.

God makes it quite clear that death means death , but we are made to believe that death does not mean cessation of existence but rather separation from GOD. This is false.

ijawkid:


you have failed to see the real thing....

THE LAKE OF FIRE

if the death(which the overcomers wont experience again because it has been destroyed) that was thrown into the lake of fire ended up in non-existence for all eternity, why should the other elements that are occupants of the lake of fire continue to literally exist forever??is there selective destruction in the lake of fire or doesnt the lake of fire in its entirety symbolize complete,total and absolute destruction/obliteration??....

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,..


nothing goes into the lake of fire and contiues to exist....

frosbel: To support the erroneous position of eternal torment , we have to define death as something else.

God makes it quite clear that death means death , but we are made to believe that death does not mean cessation of existence but rather separation from GOD. This is false.

alexleo:

Do you want to change what is written in revelation about the devil and his angels and the fals prophet being TORMENTED forever and ever in the lake of fire? Where did it say or suggest that anything that enters lake of fire ceases to exist here. Pls don't add yours. The place you quoted, paul talked about the punishment while in revelation John was shown the nature of the punishment. You don't need to define or describe it for us. We ll go with scriptural description of the punishment not yours. Moreover I don't argue with JW so don't worry. Let me continue with frosbel. I don't know yet if truthislight is JW too.

ijawkid:

they say thAT THE death in revelation 21:3-4 applies only to the elect...fine!!!!.....and they agreed that death was destroyed(ceased to exist),because as we know the overcomers wont die again...


why are they running away from the clear facts that satan and all wicked persons who are also thrown into the lake of fire would cease to exist(destroyed)??....

@alexleo i"m waiting for you....

alexleo:

Nobody is defining death as anything. The bible talked about those being tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever. Do you torment something that ceases to exist forever and ever? No sir. I still maintain that we have to stick to what is written not our definition or what we think or use to know.

alexleo:

Revelation 20:10 did not tell us that they will cease to exist rather they ll be tormented forever and ever. I cling to what the bible said not your own ideas. You don't torment what ceases to exist.

ijawkid:

see me see wahala o...so na JW isssue be this again??....mayb i should create a different i.d and come debate with you...would you like that??...

i just used scripture to explain scripture to settle this wahala you are facing...


2 thessalonians 1:9 just aided us in getting a full understanding alongside with what happened to death that was destroyed completely....

let us reason well...

i dont see why you guys are indirectly arguing that satan would gain eternal life....

.Then what exactly did God and his son Jesus accomplish if satan would also gain immortality??....

abeg make i go write another exam jare,....

continue with frosbel...

ijawkid:

but if death died in that same lake of fire why should satan and wicked people stay alive and continue living??...

has 2 thessalonians 1:9 not solved the problem??....DESTRUCTION

frosbel:

You are going round in circles bro, Rev 20:10 specifically mentions those who will be tormented 'forever' , though we know this does not mean forever.

The devil
The beast
The false prophet.

Besides , tormented day and night cannot be taken literally , because day will only exist in paradise. So if we cannot take this as literal, it also applies that we cannot take the 'forever' as literal.

frosbel: To support the erroneous position of eternal torment , we have to define death as something else.

God makes it quite clear that death means death , but we are made to believe that death does not mean cessation of existence but rather separation from GOD. This is false.

alexleo:

Bros this are your own descriptions and ideas. The scripture said forever and ever, we will leave at that. The scripture said day and night. We will leave it at that. The scripture said they ll be tormented, we ll leave it at that. The bible did not mention that they ll exist in paradise. No addition or minus by any of us is allowed here sir. Thanks.

superior1:

Like Alexleo said, it is important we call it virus and not micro-organism so some people will not attempt to use antibacterial to treat HIV. We are talking of a far more serious issue here.

If you have taken time to tell us about hades, tartarus etc to explain Hell, why can't we emphasis the specific and exact meaning of death the Bible is talking about unless you think those scriptures are invalid.

Did you see my questions to you about your take on the features of hell?. Did you also cross check if 2Peter 2:4 was talking of Tartarus and not Gehenna like you initially started?

truthislight: think of the two witnesses in Revelation also, there preaching caused torment to the people on the earth.

Where they in fire ?

Read from Revelation 11:3 to 10.

But see verses 3 and 10:

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." (Revelation 11:3).

"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth." (Revelation 11:10).
.................

How did this two prophet torment people that were alive ? Was it by fire ? No, but by their preaching befor they were killed.

Read it up.

So also the parable of Jesus about the rich man and lazarus is about the torment that the changed in favour for the common people that followed christ resulted in torment for the rich people(pherisees) due to the preaching of this followers of christ.

We know how they reacted to the preaching of stephen.

They blocked their ears and screamed and pelted him with stones (but stephen and other apostles were fevoured).

But their preaching tormented those pherisees, they made every effort to kill the followers of christ to avert the torment.

The fire for the rich man(pherisees) shows everlasting rejection for him and what he stands for.

A Wrong Spirit Fostered

The doctrine of "eternal punishment" fosters a self-righteous, vindictive spirit in believers. The psalmist, speaking of idols said, "they that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them" (Psa.115:8 ). If a Christian has an image or mental picture of god that projects Him as One who writes off those who disregard Him, then that believer similarly tends to reject those who disagree with him. Church history is replete with inquisitions and martyrdom’s manifesting this image of God. An extreme example is Queen Mary (1516-1558) of England, who won her title "Bloody Mary" by torturing and murdering non Catholics. She justified her actions, proclaiming "as the souls of heretics are to be hereafter eternally burning in hell, there can be nothing more proper than for me to imitate the divine vengeance by burning them on earth." Bloody Mary’s image of God lives on today. Condescending, pharisaical attitudes which continually divide the body of Christ, justify themselves because of a perverted image of God. "My little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen"(1Jn.5:21).

Christianity Degraded

The doctrine of "eternal punishment" aligns Christianity with the pagan religions of the world. Pagan religion recruits and rules its members by fear. The common theme of pagan religion is that non-members displease an angry god and will therefore spend eternity being tortured and tormented in the flames of hell. The pagan god rules by threat and intimidation. Preachers who have to use fear of "eternal punishment" to move people to come to the altar, and Christians who need the doctrine of "eternal punishment" to keep them from falling into sin or to motivate them to evangelism and prayer, sadly reveal their lack of true relationship with the God whose love casts out fear because fear has torment (1Jn.4:18). Is it any wonder that Christianity, whose gospel is the "power of God unto salvation" (Rom.1:16), has made so little impact upon the world’s population?

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/etpunish.html

alexleo:

I ve given you my reply. I can't accept your description and ideas. I ll stick to what the scripture says. Period.
I wish you well in your exams. No do expo o...lolz...

frosbel: Only a sadistic , cruel, monstrous and wicked individual will plan an everlasting torment for the same creatures he wants to save.

We should call this doctrine SADISM 101.

frosbel:

the thing tire me oo, even death was thrown into the lake of fire.

We have to be patient with our brothers, it took me years to de-programme my religious mindset and throw away this false slander against the character of GOD.

shdemidemi:

Emotions of the flesh...

alexleo:

Make e no tire you bros. Call it slander, call it false or anything you want. it doesnt hold water. I stand on the description of the punishment in Revelation 20.
You people always say we should stick to the scriptures yet you add your own words. It doesnt work that way na. We have to stick to what the scripture described as the punishement in Rev 20:10, not your description of destruction.

frosbel:

Rather, TRUTH and not TRADITION.

shdemidemi:

Any truth against the written word might seem true to the world but far from truth to God.

alexleo:

Make e no tire you bros. Call it slander, call it false or anything you want. it doesnt hold water. I stand on the description of the punishment in Revelation 20.
You people always say we should stick to the scriptures yet you add your own words. It doesnt work that way na. We have to stick to what the scripture described as the punishement in Rev 20:10, not your description of destruction.