frosbel: Only a sadistic , cruel, monstrous and wicked individual will plan an everlasting torment for the same creatures he wants to save.

We should call this doctrine SADISM 101.

hahahaha.....frosbel, na wa o. So where went all the stick-to-the-scriptures screaming you guys have been telling us all these while? All i have seen is you people adding your own words, your own descriptions and emotions. Not accepted sir. We should and must stick to the scriptures. Forget about all these your claims of sadism, false, cruel, wicked, monstrous bla, bla bla.....It doesn't hold any water. Not even a drop. cheers.

frosbel:

Sorry you are not making any point.

Hell does not exist, the dead are asleep, judgement is ahead.

The problem with your theology is that you have misunderstood the mortality of MAN and attributed to him an immortality that is extra-biblical and more along the lines of platonic Greek mythology.

MAN is mortal, that is why he dies, and when he dies he is dead, there is only one hope and that hope is resurrection.

Bro, do you believe the entirety of the scriptures as infallible inspired word of God upon which every issue on doctrine should be resolved.?

Have you read 2 Peter 2:4? Was the hell so started there Gehenna or Tartarus?.

superior1:

Bro, do you believe the entirety of the scriptures as infallible inspired word of God upon which every issue on doctrine should be resolved.?

Have you read 2 Peter 2:4? Was the hell so started there Gehenna or Tartarus?.

1. 2 Peter 2;4 refers to a holding place for fallen angels. So not sure how this relates to our discussion.
2. Gehenna which Jesus used often refers to the lake of fire

frosbel:

we cannot leave it at that , you failed to answer my question.

There will be day in the new paradise and no night, if anything , the sinners will be confined to outer darkness where there is no day , only thick darkness.

And if we are to take everything literal in revelations, then we start imagining beasts with women's long hair and teeth like lions, we start imagining a beast with 10 heads etc etc. Of course we know these cannot be taken literally, the book is packed full of metaphors and it takes patience, independence, prayer and wisdom to understand these verses.

we cant import our own ideas and what we know in this issue my dear. The bible has said day and night. It was mentioned both in the lake of fire and in the new heaven and the new earth.

If i should explain it in my own terms i will simply say that the day and night issue simply came up because the revelation was given to John, a human being, to us, human beings since we are already used to day and night making up one day, to make us understand these things will happen endless days. i.e forver and ever.

This is just by the way. The most important thing is that God has mentioned day and night there and we cant change it or give it interpretations. We will only leave it at that if we must stick to the bible. After all God knew about the outer darkness and the no night in heaven and still said day and night in Revelation 20. Lets stick to that.

alexleo:

we cant import our own ideas and what we know in this issue my dear. The bible has said day and night. It was mentioned both in the lake of fire and in the new heaven and the new earth.

If i should explain it in my own terms i will simply say that the day and night issue simply came up because the revelation was given to John, a human being, to us, human beings to make us understand these things will happen endless days. i.e forver and ever.

This is just by the way. The most important thing is that God has mentioned day and night there and we cant change it or give it interpretations. We will only leave it at that if we must stick to the bible. After all God knew about the outer darkness and the no night in heaven and still said day and night in Revelation 20. Lets stick to that.

Bro, You are not rightly dividing the word of GOD. A good student studies, he is not a yes man to everything doctrine.

"Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:15

frosbel:


You failed to respond point by point to my previous debunking of your very erroneous position of the end times and judgement, even one of your supporters called you to order.

Do I deserve a response from you or are you trying to divert attention ?

I made it clear from the start that I won't trade posts with you here cos you have failed to come to terms with the basics. It would eventually end in vain jangling bro, I am not ready for that today.

frosbel:

1. 2 Peter 2;4 refers to a holding place for fallen angels. So not sure how this relates to our discussion.
2. Gehenna which Jesus used often refers to the lake of fire

Sir, it is not just a holding place o, it goes beyond that, infact Apostle Peter use that exact word so that the Gentiles he was writing to will understand exactly what he was saying. They are Greeks and hence understand what Tartarus is all about.
It is a pit, an abyss
A place of torture and suffering
It is an underground filled with darkness. God is love but when those angels messed up, he didn't give them the salvation offer we mankind have but send them straight away to Tartarus and they have been there for God knows how many millennium now. God is not moved by human definition of sadism.

What if we can prove that Tartarus Peter mentioned was the same Gehenna?

frosbel:


Bro, You are not rightly dividing the word of GOD. A good student studies, he is not a yes man to everything doctrine.

"Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:15

Now you keep saying doctrine. Which doctrine? I should leave what is written in the scripture and accept your descriptions? No sir. Any study that contradicts what am seeing in the bible is not acceptable to me. Lets not run around. Something is mentioned in the scriptures and we have to keep to it. Not describing what we think about it. It doesnt work that way. Whatever is written in the scripture is what i ll take 100 percent not anybody's explanation.

^^^^

Okay, then we must accept that a beast with 10 heads will soon appear on this earth according to revelations.

[img]http://revnadinedraytonkeen.files./2011/02/daniels-4th-beast.jpg[/img]






smh

frosbel: ^^^^

Okay, then we must accept that a beast with 10 heads will soon appear on this earth according to revelations.

[img]http://revnadinedraytonkeen.files./2011/02/daniels-4th-beast.jpg[/img]






smh

And where did the bible say anything on the contrary. My dear, nothing concerns me with whether a beast with ten heads or not will appear. I will only stick to what the scripture said. I am not John the beloved that was shown the revelation, i am not God that showed the revelation. My duty is to believe what God has said as written in the bible. I wont take anybody's interpretations. Not even my interpretations. it is all these various interpretations that has put all of us into all this arguments and everybody claims to be right. Lets leave everything as the bible said it pls. By the grace of God, i pray not to be in this world to see the beast thing you are talking about and i pray not to be in hell or in the lake of fire to know whether it is total wipe out or not. I am heaven bound by God's grace. But till i leave this world, I choose to stick to what the scriptures said about these issues and not anybody's explanations. Thanks dear.

alexleo:

And where did the bible say anything on the contrary. My dear, nothing concerns me with whether a beast with ten heads or not will appear. I will only stick to what the scripture said. I am not John the beloved that was shown the revelation, i am not God that showed the revelation. My duty is to believe what God has said as written in the bible. I wont take anybody's interpretations. Not even my interpretations. it is all these various interpretations that has put all of us into all this arguments and everybody claims to be right. Lets leave everything as the bible said it pls. By the grace of God, i pray not to be in this world to see the beast thing you are talking about and i pray not to be in hell or in the lake of fire to know whether it is total wipe out or not. I am heaven bound by God's grace. But till i leave this world, I choose to stick to what the scriptures said about these issues and not anybody's explanations. Thanks dear.

God bless you abundantly, atimes there is much ado about nothing among Christians. There is nothing wrong with the word (seed) but some hearts are filled with thorns hence, they are like the pharisees, they know nothing about what they proclaim

superior1:

Sir, it is not just a holding place o, it goes beyond that, infact Apostle Peter use that exact word so that the Gentiles he was writing to will understand exactly what he was saying. They are Greeks and hence understand what Tartarus is all about.
It is a pit, an abyss
A place of torture and suffering
It is an underground filled with darkness. God is love but when those angels messed up, he didn't give them the salvation offer we mankind have but send them straight away to Tartarus and they have been there for God knows how many millennium now. God is not moved by human definition of sadism.

What if we can prove that Tartarus Peter mentioned was the same Gehenna?

Tartarus is not a place, it is a spriritual condition of total alienation from the light of God and debasement as outcasts from the heavenly family

rabzy:
Tartarus is not a place, it is a spriritual condition of total alienation from the light of God and debasement as outcasts from the heavenly family

According to what or whose definition?

superior1:

God bless you abundantly, atimes there is much ado about nothing among Christians. There is nothing wrong with the word (seed) but some hearts are filled with thorns hence, they are like the pharisees, they know nothing about what they proclaim

Thanks my dear. All this myriads of explanations and claims of truth and false is not what i need now. What is written is what i will always take than what is explained. God bless you.

alexleo:

And where did the bible say anything on the contrary. My dear, nothing concerns me with whether a beast with ten heads or not will appear. I will only stick to what the scripture said. I am not John the beloved that was shown the revelation, i am not God that showed the revelation. My duty is to believe what God has said as written in the bible. I wont take anybody's interpretations. Not even my interpretations. it is all these various interpretations that has put all of us into all this arguments and everybody claims to be right. Lets leave everything as the bible said it pls. By the grace of God, i pray not to be in this world to see the beast thing you are talking about and i pray not to be in hell or in the lake of fire to know whether it is total wipe out or not. I am heaven bound by God's grace. But till i leave this world, I choose to stick to what the scriptures said about these issues and not anybody's explanations. Thanks dear.

I respect your simplicity of purpose, unfortunately it is not the right approach to deciphering scripture, it is akin to an Ostrich burying its head in the sand and refusing to look at things differently , in the light of truth and knowledge.

Well, I have news for you , the god that will burn people forever is another god, or the god of this world, has nothing to do with Almighty GOD.

As explained by Jude 6, these angels did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place in order to mislead men. They were theirfore cut off from Gods spiritual light and became debased demons destined for destruction.
Paul called them wicked spirits in 'heavenly places' because they exercise a rule of darkness as evil spirits.
They are not under any torture rather they are the ones tormenting many pple. Jesus encountered a number of them, evidence shows dat they are always seeking pple to infect and possess. Like the one called legion, the one dat wud go and get 7 worst demons and return back to d person it onced possessd and also d ones dat requested they be given permission to enter d swines. These examples shows that they are in a debase condition and have become totally diabolic and are just waiting for destruction.

rabzy: As explained by Jude 6, these angels did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place in order to mislead men. They were theirfore cut off from Gods spiritual light and became debased demons destined for destruction.
Paul called them wicked spirits in 'heavenly places' because they exercise a rule of darkness as evil spirits.
They are not under any torture rather they are the ones tormenting many pple. Jesus encountered a number of them, evidence shows dat they are always seeking pple to infect and possess. Like the one called legion, the one dat wud go and get 7 worst demons and return back to d person it onced possessd and also d ones dat requested they be given permission to enter d swines. These examples shows that they are in a debase condition and have become totally diabolic and are just waiting for destruction.

Beautiful exposition !

alexleo:

And where did the bible say anything on the contrary. My dear, nothing concerns me with whether a beast with ten heads or not will appear. I will only stick to what the scripture said. I am not John the beloved that was shown the revelation, i am not God that showed the revelation. My duty is to believe what God has said as written in the bible. I wont take anybody's interpretations. Not even my interpretations. it is all these various interpretations that has put all of us into all this arguments and everybody claims to be right. Lets leave everything as the bible said it pls. By the grace of God, i pray not to be in this world to see the beast thing you are talking about and i pray not to be in hell or in the lake of fire to know whether it is total wipe out or not. I am heaven bound by God's grace. But till i leave this world, I choose to stick to what the scriptures said about these issues and not anybody's explanations. Thanks dear.

God bless you bro...d issue with christains today is d inability to take d Word of God as it is-satan is really using "my interpretation" to decieve so many so called christains!
I once told somebody that whenever he is coming into NL religion section,he shld just hold on to d word of God(bible)firmly and study it,bcus u will c many heresy and Lies in d section.
Study d Bible with d help of d Holy Spirit nt with frosbel or obadiah interpretations-d Holy Spirit is d author of d Bible,HE ALONE CAN GIVE D BEST INTERPRETATION!
God bless.

Jude verse 6 also shows dat the eternal bonds of dense darkness they are in right now is not their real punishment but that they are awaiting the judgement of the great day.
In fact d demons in legion asked Jesus not to torment them and also not to order them to go into d abyss which shows dat they were presently not under any torment neither were they in the abyss. The judgement of the abyss wud come later for a 1000 yrs and then finally the judgement of the lake of fire.

rabzy: As explained by Jude 6, these angels did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place in order to mislead men. They were theirfore cut off from Gods spiritual light and became debased demons destined for destruction.
Paul called them wicked spirits in 'heavenly places' because they exercise a rule of darkness as evil spirits.
They are not under any torture rather they are the ones tormenting many pple. Jesus encountered a number of them, evidence shows dat they are always seeking pple to infect and possess. Like the one called legion, the one dat wud go and get 7 worst demons and return back to d person it onced possessd and also d ones dat requested they be given permission to enter d swines. These examples shows that they are in a debase condition and have become totally diabolic and are just waiting for destruction.

Can you read those 2 verses (Jude 5 and 6) you are trying to explain gently this time around and link with 2 Peter 2:4 and make another attempt at explaining Tartarus?

I have pasted them to help you avoid the trouble of looking for them

Jude 5 and 6
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day

2 Peter 2:3-4
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

According to you.
Tartarus(hell) is not a place, it is a spriritual condition of total alienation from the light of God and debasement as outcasts from the heavenly family

frosbel he agreed it is a place and not a condition)

1. 2 Peter 2;4 refers to a holding place for fallen angels. So not sure how this relates to our discussion.
2. Gehenna which Jesus used often refers to the lake of fire

According to wikipedia (I deliberately avoided using definition from respected Biblical Theologians so you won't claim bias)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus
Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek: Τάρταρος, from τάρταρον "tartar encrusting the sides of casks", is the deep abyss in ancient Greek mythology that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked. A part of the underworld and, in turn, below Uranus (sky), Gaia (earth), and Pontus (sea), Tartarus is the place where, according to Plato in Gorgias (c. 400 BC), souls were judged after death and where the wicked received punishment.

There you go now

^^^^

Going round in circles without addressing the topic at hand.

superior1:

Can you read those 2 verses (Jude 5 and 6) you are trying to explain gently this time around and link with 2 Peter 2:4 and make another attempt at explaining them to be your definition of Tartarus?

I have pasted them to help you avoid the trouble of looking for them

Jude 5 and 6
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day

2 Peter 2:3-4
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

According to you.
Tartarus(hell) is not a place, it is a spriritual condition of total alienation from the light of God and debasement as outcasts from the heavenly family

frosbel he agreed it is a place and not a condition)

1. 2 Peter 2;4 refers to a holding place for fallen angels. So not sure how this relates to our discussion.
2. Gehenna which Jesus used often refers to the lake of fire

There you go now

Bros I never said tartarus and hell are the same.ihave explained what I believe tartarus is based on biblical experiences.translating tartarus as hell is wrong and jude clearly shows that there is a greater judgement they are waiting for which is greater than the tartaric condition they are.

rabzy:
Bros I never said tartarus and hell are the same.ihave explained what I believe tartarus is based on biblical experiences.translating tartarus as hell is wrong and jude clearly shows that there is a greater judgement they are waiting for which is greater than the tartaric condition they are.

Sir, I am not asking you want you believe. I am saying let us study the scriptures!!!. Do you now agree Tartarus is not a condition but a place?
Answer that before we come to if Tartarus is hell or not

You have quoted the right wrong source, because it is actually the platonic teachings enforced by hellenization that first corrupted judaism and centuries later xtianity. That is the tartarus of the greeks and that also explains why the hell of the greeks were superimposed into d hell of the later xtians.
Peter only used the word as a vehicle he was not talking about the titans nor trying to bring to his listerners minds all that took place in the tartarus of the greeks. The titans were in a place of darkness, shame and alienation from the gods of olympus. He just used the name as vehicle to carry such thots and that is where the similarity ends

rabzy: You have quoted the right wrong source, because it is actually the platonic teachings enforced by hellenization that first corrupted judaism and centuries later xtianity. That is the tartarus of the greeks and that also explains why the hell of the greeks were superimposed into d hell of the later xtians.
Peter only used the word as a vehicle he was not talking about the titans nor trying to bring to his listerners minds all that took place in the tartarus of the greeks. The titans were in a place of darkness, shame and alienation from the gods of olympus. He just used the name as vehicle to carry such thots and that is where the similarity ends

Wonderful bible study.

rabzy: You have quoted the right wrong source, because it is actually the platonic teachings enforced by hellenization that first corrupted judaism and centuries later xtianity. That is the tartarus of the greeks and that also explains why the hell of the greeks were superimposed into d hell of the later xtians.
Peter only used the word as a vehicle he was not talking about the titans nor trying to bring to his listerners minds all that took place in the tartarus of the greeks. The titans were in a place of darkness, shame and alienation from the gods of olympus. He just used the name as vehicle to carry such thots and that is where the similarity ends

Peter used that word tartarus instead of hades, why?. Yorubas use the word Esu (one of the dieties) as Satan for lack of better word to use. A new very rural Christian community in Asia do not know what bread, so their bible reported 'Jesus is the rice of life' since rice is the only food they can relate with. Peter used Tartarus for a specific reason and any simple mind can easily understand the message he was passing to them.

When Tartarus is used by greeks, they are talking of a place not a condition. Peter said they are being binded in chains, do you bind people in chains and reserve them in chains in a place or just a condition of roaming about like you claimed?

frosbel:

I respect your simplicity of purpose, unfortunately it is not the right approach to deciphering scripture,

Not the right approach, as described by you and not by God. No wahala then. You are entitled to your opinion.

frosbel:

in the light of truth and knowledge.

Which truth and which knowledge? No sir. Any truth that runs contrary to what am seeing in the bible is a no-no situation for me. I am done with people's explanations on this issue. it is now what the scripture says that i cling to.

frosbel:


Well, I have news for you , the god that will burn people forever is another god, or the god of this world, has nothing to do with Almighty GOD.

Sorry sir, there is no good news in any statement that runs contrary to what the bible said in Revelation 20:10- "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.".
Your conclusion above is just your opinion which you are entitled to but does not hold water beyond your views. people keep concluding the scriptures from their point of view and this is what is causing all this confusion in Christianity. One would have thought that you people that keeps saying stick to the scriptures will truly keep to the scriptures, but...how wrong we had thought. Now its back to the bible. I need nobody's explanations anymore. Thanks my brother.

And thanks for keeping the discussion clean and flowing with love among each other. This is what i want. I am done with any discussion that will not be done in love. Am here to learn and make heaven at last and since bitterness, hatred and abuse can make one miss heaven then i better drop it for good. Am not here to display bible knowledge dexterity. cheers.

I have stated clearly with bible verses and explanations why it is not a place but a condition. If it is a place and they are under eternal bonds and torment, how did they escape and possess pple, why did they ask Jesus not to torment them, why did Jesus not send dem bak to tartarus. If they are under bondsand torment in tartarus, what other judgement was peter and jude say they were waiting for, why did they ask Jesus why he wants to torment them before the appointed time.

rabzy: I have stated clearly with bible verses and explanations why it is not a place but a condition. If it is a place and they are under eternal bonds and torment, how did they escape and possess pple, why did they ask Jesus not to torment them, why did Jesus not send dem bak to tartarus. If they are under bondsand torment in tartarus, what other judgement was peter and jude say they were waiting for, why did they ask Jesus why he wants to torment them before the appointed time.

Gbam !!!

rabzy: I have stated clearly with bible verses and explanations why it is not a place but a condition. If it is a place and they are under eternal bonds and torment, how did they escape and possess pple, why did they ask Jesus not to torment them, why did Jesus not send dem bak to tartarus. If they are under bondsand torment in tartarus, what other judgement was peter and jude say they were waiting for, why did they ask Jesus why he wants to torment them before the appointed time.

Now, I can understand where you missed it.

Satans and his angels fall was it before or after adam was created?

frosbel:




You may want to do some reading instead of continuing to expose your ignorance on many matters.



no one goes to Heaven and no one goes to Hell.


There are ONLY 2 destinies :


1. Restored Paradise or new heaven and new earth.

"But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God's righteousness." - 2 Peter 3:13

"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind." - Isaiah 65:17

"Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth." - Matthew 5:5



2. Lake of fire and eternal destruction for the wicked.

"13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:13-14

"And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed." - 2 Peter 3:7

"And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view them with utter horror."" - Isaiah 66:24

Frobel. Why did you say no one goes to heaven and no one goes to hell (grave)? The scriptures you quoted never supported that no one will go to heaven neither did it say there is no hell (grave).

Peter used chains, jude used prison, peter also used prison in another verse, all these indicates a state of helplessness of not being able to change your condition or state. It does not mean they are held in chains somewhere. And I have explained why peter used tartarus for his audience. Titans were fallen godsn justlike the fallen angels, they were in physical dense darkness, the angels were in spiritual darkness, titans were cut off from the olympus family, the angels were totally alienated from Gods heavenly family. That is where the parallelism ends.