@Ayoky77. I am blessed by your piece.
Thanks God for you!

Reyginus: You still don't get it. If all scripture is God-breathed, then what is the point of using a hundred God-breathed quotations to argue for and against a certain concept of faith? Why not dwell on a single verse or chapter?

ahhh but you do err monsieur Reygie >>>> isaiah 28 vs 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: <<< meaning you have to join several together to prove and show

Goshen360:

You be olodo!!! Quote me where I said the above. That's why you read both scriptures and people's comments BUT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. I have always said READ OR STUDY THE OT WITH THE EYES OR LENS OF THE NT. That's when you get the revelation of the word. The law was a SHADOW of GOOD THINGS to come, so when u studying it, don't interpret as ENFORCEMENT OF IT'S PHYSICAL ACTS ON BELIEVERS but as good things that is to happen to believers. Do you physically or literally carry out one of the feasts today?

Yeah, we are led by the Spirit into the spiritual realities they represent.

ayoku777:

The thing tire me o. Do you become a bastard everytime you do something your father doesn't like? A christian is not a sinner, even if he sins. Every sin is a sin, no small sin no big sin, and the sin grieves the Holy Spirit alike. Every sin is an imperfection caused by our unreformed soul, but it doesn't revoke our righteousness or unregenerate our regenerated spirit in Christ.

The righteousness of Christ is what justifies us.
And he doesn't take it back each time we sin until we repent.

And we shouldn't even be overly concerned about sin or not sinning. We should focus on the glory of Christ, to behold it and to bring it forth. That will bring us unto perfection faster than any other method of making christians do right.

Dont be too liberal with the truth.

Commiting a sin and living in sin are not the same thing.

To live in in sin is to have a sin nature

If you cannot confess to your own errors and failings then you most definately have a sin nature

Confession is good for the soul.

obadiah777: ahhh but you do err monsieur Reygie >>>> isaiah 28 vs 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: <<< meaning you have to join several together to prove and show

Like you didn't read my post very well. Do you by precepts upon precepts dismiss the implication of your opponents precepts, even when it is from the same bible? You guys are just making the bible appear stupid when you do that.

EBK2: @Ayoky77. I am blessed by your piece.
Thanks God for you!

Thanks, doing my part for the church.

Reyginus: Like you didn't read my post very well. Do you by precepts upon precepts dismiss the implication of your opponents precepts, even when it is from the same bible? You guys are just making the bible appear stupid when you do that.

i guess there are different ways to the market. so long as we all get to the market

obadiah777: i guess there are different ways to the market. so long as we all get to the market

Looking at the wrong side of the analogy. All you guys posting verses are only saying that their is only one road(which appears to be the one you pick) to the market. And people around will begin to wonder if there is really a market.

ayoku777:

The thing tire me o. Do you become a bastard everytime you do something your father doesn't like? A christian is not a sinner, even if he sins. Every sin is a sin, no small sin no big sin, and the sin grieves the Holy Spirit alike. Every sin is an imperfection caused by our unreformed soul, but it doesn't revoke our righteousness or unregenerate our regenerated spirit in Christ.

The righteousness of Christ is what justifies us.
And he doesn't take it back each time we sin until we repent.

And we shouldn't even be overly concerned about sin or not sinning. We should focus on the glory of Christ, to behold it and to bring it forth. That will bring us unto perfection faster than any other method of making christians do right.

Please bro, what does it mean to be righteous?.

Reyginus: Looking at the wrong side of the analogy. All you guys posting verses are only saying that their is only one road(which appears to be the one you pick) to the market. And people around will begin to wonder if there is really a market.

well the point here is nobody wants to listen to peoples opinions. we want to hear what God says. this is what scripture says about the heart of man >>> jeremiah 17 vs 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? <<< as such i dont want to hear what 'your' opinions and beliefs are about spiritual issues. i want to hear what God says not what man says. this is why you have to back everything up with scriptures. without scriptures what is offered are just the persons vain opinions. thats why scripture says 'prove all things'. tis also why scripture says 'if they speak not according to whats in the bible ( meaning if you are not quoting verses to prove your points ) it is because their is no light in them'

kingk:

Please bro, what does it mean to be righteous?.

Righteousness is a gift of grace that is imputed into the spirit of EVERYONE who has put is faith in Christ death and resurrection. It is a gift that is received by grace through faith, you can't work hard enough to get it or work less enough to lose it. Its not provoked by works or revoked by works. It is valid and stays so, even ever before you learn how to be led of the Spirit of God.

Its different however from perfection, perfection is when you begin to live out the life of Christ, this is dependent on fellowship with the Spirit and obedience to his leading. Righteousness is a stand, perfection is a walk; righteousness is a state, perfection is a journey. You don't grow in righteousness, but you grow in perfection. Conservatives mix up this two and condemn a believer who sins as being unrighteous. You can't be unrighteous even when you sin, its not work dependant, its a gift given. But perfection on the other, is also by grace but it involves what you do.

You can read my other posts on this same thread where I replied similar questions.

The Lord give you understanding

MostHigh:



Thought you said you are out to destroy the LAW.

This your song is a new tune I never heard before.

Never heard you say "study the law"

And before I forget there are millions of christians (Easten Orthodox and Oriental orthodoxy) please note "not christopagans" that still observe literally and physically certain feast days, the sabbaths and vows as is commanded within the torah.

Then those people are simply following SHADOWS, not the SUBSTANCE!!! And with the SHADOWS, the worshipers are never perfect, coming to maturity and they keep repeating same rituals year-in-year out!!!

ayoku777:

Yeah, we are led by the Spirit into the spiritual realities they represent.

What people like Bidam and most law keepers don't understand is what you doing, bringing out the reality or substance out of the shadows of the law. What they do is they teach the law as good things to come instead of shadows of good things to come. I'm late for work, just to quick type. See you later!!! That's what I'm out to destroy or tear down!!!

obadiah777: well the point here is nobody wants to listen to peoples opinions. we want to hear what God says. this is what scripture says about the heart of man >>> jeremiah 17 vs 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? <<< as such i dont want to hear what 'your' opinions and beliefs are about spiritual issues. i want to hear what God says not what man says. this is why you have to back everything up with scriptures. without scriptures what is offered are just the persons vain opinions. thats why scripture says 'prove all things'. tis also why scripture says 'if they speak not according to whats in the bible ( meaning if you are not quoting verses to prove your points ) it is because their is no light in them'

and when i say 'your' opinions, i had the 'your' in quotes to make it an ambiguous word covering every human being. thats not specifically directed at ya Reygie cuz i can appreciate it does come across as rude if 'your' meant 'you' . just thought ill clear that up so no ill feelings is created

ayoku777:

Righteousness is a gift of grace that is imputed into the spirit of EVERYONE who has put is faith in Christ death and resurrection. It is a gift that is received by grace through faith, you can't work hard enough to get it or work less enough to lose it. Its not provoked by works or revoked by works. It is valid and stays so, even ever before you learn how to be led of the Spirit of God.

Its different however from perfection, perfection is when you begin to live out the life of Christ, this is dependent on fellowship with the Spirit and obedience to his leading. Righteousness is a stand, perfection is a walk; righteousness is a state, perfection is a journey. You don't grow in righteousness, but you grow in perfection. Conservatives mix up this two and condemn a believer who sins as being unrighteous. You can't be unrighteous even when you sin, its not work dependant, its a gift given. But perfection on the other, is also by grace but it involves what you do.

You can read my other posts on this same thread where I replied similar questions.

The Lord give you understanding

Thanks for your reply bro, please then, can a sinner be righteous?

Goshen360:

Then those people are simply following SHADOWS, not the SUBSTANCE!!! And with the SHADOWS, the worshipers are never perfect, coming to maturity and they keep repeating same rituals year-in-year out!!!

Both shadows and substance are still relevant.Take a look at this scripture for example.

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. —Isaiah 66:8


Many have looked at this verse and thought it referred only to the rebirth of Israel as a nation. Yet most Old Testament prophecy has a twofold application—first the natural, then the spiritual. Isaiah is prophesying that Israel will be reborn as a nation in the natural, and that in the spiritual, Zion will travail and bring forth her children.And we know that the church is zion.

This is why i said you miss the whole point bro..

Goshen360:

Then those people are simply following SHADOWS, not the SUBSTANCE!!! And with the SHADOWS, the worshipers are never perfect, coming to maturity and they keep repeating same rituals year-in-year out!!!

In essence what you are saying is that even Yashua ibn joseph and all the apostles and even paul himself are SHADOW CHASERS as you put it.

Seeing that they all obeyed the laws of the most high God till the very end as is testified by all of scripture.


Even though these men had become perfect even as thier father is perfect they still obeyed the LAW

Even though these men were aware of the true substance they still upheld the LAW".

Mr Goshen why is your case different.

YOU CAN MAKE HEAVEN EVEN IF YOU FALL INTO SIN EVERYDAY OF YOUR LIFE.(Simplified)

What you are about to read will shock you and change your life forever. After reading this, you will be filled with indescribable peace that surpasses all human understanding because you will know for sure that you no longer have business with hell but guaranteed a place in paradise.

1.In the past before Christ came, the people of Israel were asked to sacrifice an animal anytime they sin and he will forgive them meaning they can actually commit any sin and will be forgiving once this sacrifice is made.

2. The death of Jesus on the cross was a representative of the sin sacrifice way back and we no longer need to sacrifice any animal henceforth because the death of Christ is now the ultimate sacrifice.

3.GOD would have simply forgave the world of their sins but according to his plan,without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin and this was why Jesus was sent because the blood of animals can not take away the sins of the world.

4. No matter how hard you try, you can't live a sinless life and in fact you are vulnerable as human to fall into sin everyday of your life, But it is believing in the sacrifice made by Jesus that makes us righteous in God's eyes.

5. Even the great Bible characters that are occupying great place in paradise as you read this were men of sins talking about Abraham,Moses,Isaac,David and many more, Only Jesus was sinless when he was on earth.

6.Understand that 90% of people wailing in hell today have no business been there because most of them have at one point or the other accepted Jesus as their lord and savior but willingly gave up their salvation and consider themselves unsaved,

7.Once you have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior, you can never lose your salvation and your place is booked in paradise except you willingly give up your salvation because you think you can never give up some sinful acts in your life.

8.Giving your life to christ and dropping all your sinful habits dont usually happen in one day but sometimes take a gradual process. It is your duty to comit that to the holy spirit to take care of.

9. A genuine believer can fall into sin but does not enjoy the act or craves for it. if you are the type who enjoys your sinful act and even craves for it then you are not a true believer.

10. Do not disqualify yourself. You can make heaven,you can be born again. Come the way you are and God will never ever reject you.

ayoku777: We need to begin to listen to eachother to see the big picture of the purposes of God. Both groups have a point but we often drift into extremes because we don't listen to eachother.

As I always say, the dispensation of grace is not the age of God's indifference to what He hated under the law, its a change of approach to bringing us unto perfection. This is my Spirit-inspired (I believe) definition of grace: Grace is the overflow of the mercy of God that makes a man RECEIVE things above his merit and DO things beyond his power.

Grace has two sides, the side that helps us receive and the side that helps us release what we've received. The side that helps us become and the side that helps us bring forth what we've become. Its like this, I can wire a billion dollars into your bank account, that would INSTANTLY make you become a billionaire, but it won't magically become food on your table or cloth on your back or a roof on your head. You have to cash it and USE it for you to profit with it.

Grace gives us righteousness, justification and the Holy Spirit as gifts, we can't work hard enough to receive them or less enough to lose them. But we need to, by that same grace, do things to profit with the gifts. You're not edified by HAVING the gift of speaking in tongues, you're edified by SPEAKING in tongues. You don't walk in power by HAVING the holy spirit, you do by fellowshiping with him and by prompt obedience to his leading. That's why Paul told Timothy to STIR up the GIFT that is in him. Even gifts need stirring.

There is the angle of grace that gives us things and an angle of grace that helps us reach for things or bring forth what we are given. If there is no doing in grace or something to DO after grace, on what criteria will some people be the greatest in the kingdom of God and some will be the least?

I've heard a believer say God loves a cheerful giver, and by that he means don't give unless there is cheerfulness in the act, and he made that his excuse for not giving many times. But there was nothing cheerful in Christ when he gave his life, he groaned till the last minute and his soul was sorrowful unto death. And that is the greatest giving ever.

Where I disagree is when people say if you sin you become unrighteous, that's untrue. You can't lose your righteousness or even the Holy Spirit but you can refuse to profit with them if you don't move beyond the grace to become unto the grace to bring forth what you've become. And that part of grace involves some sacrifice on your part, like when Jesus told Paul to endure coz, ...my grace is sufficient for you. Grace to travail, to supplicate and fellowship with the Holy Spirit to bring forth the glory of Christ is still in the New covenant

...to be continued.

Thanks! You did a good job breaking it down to a layman understanding, but all must be conscious of the fact that grace do not permit us to mis-behave. If you work with the thought that there is grace available and whole heartedly and consciously commit that which is wrong, that does not make you better in anyway than those who know not Christ(in fact it make you worst than them) cause you know the truth and decide to satisfy your flesh. Gal 5:13
Well grace enable you work better, when you whole heartedly accept Christ and want to do his will, his grace makes it easier. So it is for the people of the world, those that do evil are given some kind of enable-ment(Devil's grace) to do it better.
For example; as teen I love to play games, too good at soccer that I decided to bet, it was against my belief as a Christian but the fun of doing it was there but I never win a game in which I place bet. Those I know I play better than will always defeat me, but there are some person who are not good at playing but they will always come out of the game hall smiling. GRACE!!!

kingk:

Thanks for your reply bro, please then, can a sinner be righteous?

Can a member of another family bear your surname simply because he acts like one of your sibling once in a while?
Righteousness is a gift bequeathed to family members when we are born into this new family. It confers legality on family members.
A sinner cannot be righteous because what makes you a sin is that you have the sin nature in you. Which is what Christ destroyed on the cross (the devil and his works). What makes you righteous is not that you are cannot sin again. It is that the sin nature has been destroyed and you have a gravitation towards the things of light and not darkness. Righteousness is a gift. It is not a reward.

(I am on break o! )

YOU CAN MAKE HEAVEN EVEN IF YOU FALL INTO SIN EVERYDAY OF YOUR LIFE.(Simplified)

What you are about to read will shock you and change your life forever. After reading this, you will be filled with indescribable peace that surpasses all human understanding because you will know for sure that you no longer have business with hell but guaranteed a place in paradise.

1.In the past before Christ came, the people of Israel were asked to sacrifice an animal anytime they sin and he will forgive them meaning they can actually commit any sin and will be forgiving once this sacrifice is made.

2. The death of Jesus on the cross was a representative of the sin sacrifice way back and we no longer need to sacrifice any animal henceforth because the death of Christ is now the ultimate sacrifice.

3.GOD would have simply forgave the world of their sins but according to his plan,without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin and this was why Jesus was sent because the blood of animals can not take away the sins of the world.

4. No matter how hard you try, you can't live a sinless life and in fact you are vulnerable as human to fall into sin everyday of your life, But it is believing in the sacrifice made by Jesus that makes us righteous in God's eyes.

5. Even the great Bible characters that are occupying great place in paradise as you read this were men of sins talking about Abraham,Moses,Isaac,David and many more, Only Jesus was sinless when he was on earth.

6.Understand that 90% of people wailing in hell today have no business been there because most of them have at one point or the other accepted Jesus as their lord and savior but willingly gave up their salvation and consider themselves unsaved,

7.Once you have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior, you can never lose your salvation and your place is booked in paradise except you willingly give up your salvation because you think you can never give up some sinful acts in your life.

8.Giving your life to christ and dropping all your sinful habits dont usually happen in one day but sometimes take a gradual process. It is your duty to comit that to the holy spirit to take care of.

9. A genuine believer can fall into sin but does not enjoy the act or craves for it. if you are the type who enjoys your sinful act and even craves for it then you are not a true believer.

10. Do not disqualify yourself. You can make heaven,you can be born again. Come the way you are and God will never ever reject you.

For a comprehensive understanding:https://www.facebook.com/kadiri.o.olatokunbo/posts/586053654765082

The gospel of grace that some people peddle around is if one sins, grace has covered it. They think grace is the concealer for sin.

Yes, we are not saved by any physical effort of ours but by Jesus's grace and love but we then in gratitude maximise His grace to help us do His perfect will and also go back to Him when we stumble. Emphasis is on knowing when we fail and come boldly to His Throne to obtain mercy and grace to help.

Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy

I John 1:8-9
8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth
9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness

Hebrews 4:16
So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most


The difference between one living is sin and one that is working out His salvation with fear and trembling is that while the former conceals his sin using 'grace', the latter owns up to it, confesses and renounces it and comes boldy to God's gracious throne to receive MERCY and HELP.

kingk:

Thanks for your reply bro, please then, can a sinner be righteous?

Now, since righteousness is a gift that Christ gives to all who put there faith in his death and resurrection, then it means a sinner by new covenant definition is anyone who hasn't accepted Christ as his Lord and Saviour. If you've done that and you sin, that doesn't make you a sinner or unrighteous, it makes you an imperfect saint. And you should work on your imperfections too, coz sin before or after grace, grieves the Holy spirit. That's why scripture talks about the perfecting of the saint.

But someone who hasn't accepted Christ is a sinner and unrighteous even if he has all the morals in the world.

Goshen360:

What people like Bidam and most law keepers don't understand is what you doing, bringing out the reality or substance out of the shadows of the law. What they do is they teach the law as good things to come instead of shadows of good things to come. I'm late for work, just to quick type. See you later!!! That's what I'm out to destroy or tear down!!!

Lol,all because i believed in tithes.olboy stick to your revelations let me stick to mine.Point of correction i am not a law keeper.You are actually going way offline here. I do things as instructed by the Holy Ghost.You are also derailing the OP.

mbulela:
Can a member of another family bear your surname simply because he acts like one of your sibling once in a while?
Righteousness is a gift bequeathed to family members when we are born into this new family. It confers legality on family members.
A sinner cannot be righteous because what makes you a sin is that you have the sin nature in you. Which is what Christ destroyed on the cross (the devil and his works). What makes you righteous is not that you are cannot sin again. It is that the sin nature has been destroyed and you have a gravitation towards the things of light and not darkness. Righteousness is a gift. It is not a reward.

(I am on break o! )

Wow! Bro thanks but what does this bible verse explain with being righteous Gen15:6  And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Now I believe righteousness is from what we do, when you do what's right, you're righteous.......also we're not called to be righteous but unto Holiness.

kingk:

Wow! Bro thanks but what does this bible verse explain with being righteous Gen15:6  And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Now I believe righteousness is from what we do, when you do what's right, you're righteous.......also we're not called to be righteous but unto Holiness.

The most high God is HOLY.

Rightousness is just an extension or attribute of being holy.

You are quite right we are called to be holy, and he that is set apart will surely do rightousness.

MostHigh:

The most high God is HOLY.

Righteousness is just an extension or attribute of being holy.

You are quite right we are called to be holy, and he that is set apart will surely do righteousness.

(Righteousness is just an extension or attribute of being holy) nice saying,

The most high God is HOLY. But we can also be holy............ Nonetheless I ask again, can a sinner be righteous?, knowing that righteousness is from thy works.

MostHigh:

In essence what you are saying is that even Yashua ibn joseph and all the apostles and even paul himself are SHADOW CHASERS as you put it.

Seeing that they all obeyed the laws of the most high God till the very end as is testified by all of scripture.


Even though these men had become perfect even as thier father is perfect they still obeyed the LAW

Even though these men were aware of the true substance they still upheld the LAW".

Mr Goshen why is your case different.

Most High are you aware of the fact of you being a comedian? lmaoooo@ Shadow chasers

Romans 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, throughfaith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

It remains a miracle how people miss the gospel of Christ or mix it with that of the law. Apostle Paul through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit presented a gospel that imputed righteousness apart from the law. A righteousness separate from the law but mankind would fight all they can to allude righteousness to themselves.

The law could not nail sin, it couldn't reveal the sinfulness of sin but Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh and nailed sin once and for all.

kingk:

Wow! Bro thanks but what does this bible verse explain with being righteous Gen15:6  And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Now I believe righteousness is from what we do, when you do what's right, you're righteous.......also we're not called to be righteous but unto Holiness.

Righteousness is a product of faith. It is a REWARD for doing what God says. And believe me it is a very thin line. It is NOT a state thus it may surprise us that you cannot be righteous by observing the law, i.e. Studying the bible or attending church or 'doing what the bible says' or doing our church ordinances and traditions, etc. Righteousness is task specific. Since it is a reward or credit, there has to be a demand, order by God specifically.

Remember the rich man who met Jesus with an impressive CV of biblical achievements, one tasking alone by Jesus knocked him off. Proving that Righteousness is not an offering but a response to a specific demand by God. So we need faith to attain righteousness.

TinyPurpleBaby:

Most High are you aware of the fact of you being a comedian? lmaoooo@ Shadow chasers

My dearly beloved Sistah. I just say it as I see it.

Wassup TPB.

How is winniempeg today.

Blessed.