aManFromMars: ^^^^^
In so doing, they make God a slave of his attributes without realizing it.

Exactly...

@op I will say yes to your question, he knows who you will be from beginning to end.

That now brings the question of why will a loving father create some people to be hell bound and some people heaven bound
My answer to the above is there is no hell.

My opinion though

Kabieosi:

@rationalmind

You are wrong and your premise is utterly flawed

God knows the actual choices we will make - in fact all the choices

and He has unlimited powers - He is OMNIpotent

Don't worry, soon come, just keep on watching this space rationalmind.

# Computer scientist, computer engineer - Not much of a difference

Im only saying if we accept the dudes definition of God not knowing the actual choices we make, it automatically makes him not omnipotent.

rationalmind:

Im only saying if we accept the dudes definition of God not knowing the actual choices we make, it automatically makes him not omnipotent.

@rationalmind

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You prolly know where all that above is about and heading to . . .

Sort of like chess players thinking opponents' moves ahead (i.e. only that this Player knows the end from the beginning)

What people keep forgeting or not recognising is that there was an ongoing issue that has to be taken care off right from the root

SIN - I, is the centre of sin.

All instances/traces of sin needs to be removed, it is allowed to run its course

We can't have our cake and eat it.

I don't hear inanimate objects complaining, well suppose that is the difference between them and us

Keep food in a refrigerator, it keeps its freshness,

if it walks out away from the fridge, it goes stale and bad,

then ends up in the rubbish bin - nothing personal about that

There is actually no compelling need trying convincing anyone. And that's not my purpose here.

I have shared my humble opinion.

Thanks.

alcuin: There is actually no compelling need trying convincing anyone. And that's not my purpose here.

I have shared my humble opinion.

Thanks.

Well, thanks for sharing, but ur opiniom sound incoherent to me. Does that make me a bad guy?

Kabieosi:

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You prolly know where all that above is about and heading to . . .

Sort of like chess players thinking opponents' moves ahead (i.e. only that this Player knows the end from the beginning)

What people keep forgeting or not recognising is that there was an ongoing issue that has to be taken care off right from the root

SIN - I, is the centre of sin.

All instances/traces of sin needs to be removed, it is allowed to run its course

We can't have our cake and eat it.

I don't hear inanimate objects complaining, well suppose that is the difference between them and us

Keep food in a refrigerator, it keeps its freshness,

if it walks out away from the fridge, it goes stale and bad,

then ends up in the rubbish bin - nothing personal about that

Dude, stop calling God omini-everything and the go ahead to describe him to us with an unomini angle example.
Just for instance imagine u we an ominieverythin being and try an think like that, then explain to us while still thinking like that, then u might understand where I am coming from.

Stop trying to explain what u can't comprehend... U make the creator of this world look foolish. U know nothing, accept understand that ur religious stance is just ur delusion.

frank3.16:


Dude, stop calling God omini-everything and the go ahead to describe him to us with an unomini angle example.

Just for instance imagine u we an ominieverythin being and try an think like that, then explain to us while still thinking like that, then u might understand where I am coming from.

Stop trying to explain what u can't comprehend... U make the creator of this world look foolish.

U know nothing, accept understand that ur religious stance is just ur delusion.

@frank3.16

Listen to yourself.

You are making out that God played russian roulette

I too have wrestled with getting the understanding, like you too, before

and make sense of it.

- You are just an object; a variable

Image123:

i conclude that you are a lazy man and close-minded. He already answered your question if you cared to read. So did i and so did kabieosi. We've given yes, and we've given no. You really do not want an answer.

You should notice the way I tried replying you, unlike me, so as not to enter into insults.
Anyway, didn't you not see the words "ask AGAIN"?. No, I did not open this thread to understand the meaning of anyword. What I was looking for was a verse that said "God is omniscient " or "god knows everything". You guys began posting rubbish, while you also wanted to talk about the meaning of a word which I am not interested in. I purposely asked again cos it seemed we were not on the same line. But I no longer need an answer, the posts here alone are convincing. You guys are confused.

Sincerely, I actually don't know if there is any big deal if one says God(or even any god) is not omniscient. If I was a believer in any god, I don't see it compulsory for the god to have those omni-ominess abilities.
Some people just enjoy being myopic. If truly God is not said to be omniscient in the bible, it only shows that cavemen who wrote the bible 2000 years ago could be wiser than some people of the 21st century.

chy22: @op I will say yes to your question, he knows who you will be from beginning to end.

That now brings the question of why will a loving father create some people to be hell bound and some people heaven bound
My answer to the above is there is no hell.

My opinion though

lol.
you be Jehovah withness member?

.

wiegraf:

I personally just usually ignore this, not sure why, but that is correct so long as you use the standard definition of the word. Maybe I ignore it because anyone of them capable of thinking usually redefines the word, ie omnipotent in particular, to mean something else. (one guy changes the word omniscient to 'all knowing' and his all-knowing is even more nonsensical than @alcuin's version of 'omniscience', so what's the point? the stuff they come up with...)

On a random note, regardless, with most of the definitions I come across they fall into a 'can he build a rock he cannot lift?' problems. You don't have to go far to find them, just as you've demonstrated with omniscience. Simpler problem for instance is omnipresence, can he be absent if he wants to? If he can and does so, he isn't omnipresent much, yes? Can he wipe his memory? Basically, can he be fallible? There are various sorts of problems with the omnixx.x bundle, but at the moment I cannot concentrate so can't put them down.

That's why I want him to clarify if he thinks god is subject to the laws of logic, is god natural? If he does then he's probably doing it wrong, as all these terms are usually nonsense impossibilities. If he doesn't then he's wasting all of our time, including his.

One of the more amusing results of their babble, for the asinine 'holier than thou' crowd, when they claim "good cannot exist without god" simply ask what if god dies? The best response I've ever gotten is 'that's a foolish question!'. What sort of omnipotent cannot die if he wants to?? They simply lalalalalala away the fact that 'god' must be subject to logic, not the other way round.

Thats the reason why I tried not going too far. Omniscience is what is usually talked about with its relationship with freewill. I sometimes don't consider the others to be in anyway, true.

nwuyag:
lol.
you be Jehovah withness member?

No, I am just a christian who has no denomination, just me, my bible and holy Spirit guiding my understanding. No church name attached.

alcuin: There is actually no compelling need trying convincing anyone. And that's not my purpose here.

I have shared my humble opinion.

Thanks.

And we're just pointing how your position is likely wrong. This matter is not all subjective, it can probably be determined objectively (especially the standard xtian claims). Kudos.

nwuyag: Sincerely, I actually don't know if there is any big deal if one says God(or even any god) is not omniscient. If I was a believer in any god, I don't see it compulsory for the god to have those omni-ominess abilities.
Some people just enjoy being myopic. If truly God is not said to be omniscient in the bible, it only shows that cavemen who wrote the bible 2000 years ago could be wiser than some people of the 21st century.

God is omniscience, but inherently so, not totally.

Kabieosi:

@rationalmind

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Global variables, local variables
Interpreter etc etc

You prolly know where all that above is about and heading to . . .

Sort of like chess players thinking opponents' moves ahead (i.e. only that this Player knows the end from the beginning)

What people keep forgeting or not recognising is that there was an ongoing issue that has to be taken care off right from the root

SIN - I, is the centre of sin.

All instances/traces of sin needs to be removed, it is allowed to run its course

We can't have our cake and eat it.

I don't hear inanimate objects complaining, well suppose that is the difference between them and us

Keep food in a refrigerator, it keeps its freshness,

if it walks out away from the fridge, it goes stale and bad,

then ends up in the rubbish bin - nothing personal about that

Hope you know ure not saying anything. Ure bringing another issue different from the one being discussed. The concept of sin alone is a slap on sky daddys face. I don't want to go into all that as it'll derail the thread

JMAN05:

God is omniscience, but inherently so, not totally.

hmmmn o!
please explain better
where(how) did you come about your assertion of an God's inherent omniscience?(source pls)

nwuyag:
hmmmn o!
please explain better
where(how) did you come about your assertion of an God's inherent omniscience?(source pls)

* inherent omniscience - the ability[/b]to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
* total omniscience -[b]actually knowing everything that can be known.

So God has the ability, but chooses not to use it always.

check wikipedia.com

JMAN05:

* inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
* total omniscience -actually knowing everything that can be known.

So God has the ability, but chooses not to use it always.

check wikipedia.com

^^^

Wikipedia is not a reliable source, it is not a site to base research(es) on

Even the creators of Wikipedia are the first to admit that not every entry is accurate

and that it might not be the best source of material for research papers

so be careful of what you read on wikipedia because it may not consistently be reliable

^{JUST PASSING}
----oooO----
----(----)----
-----\--(--
------\_)-
-----------Oooo ---
-----------(--- -)---
------------)-- /----
------------(_/ - ^BY

Kabieosi:

^^^

Wikipedia is not a reliable source, it is not a site to base research(es) on

Even the creators of Wikipedia are the first to admit that not every entry is accurate

and that it might not be the best source of material for research papers

so be careful of what you read on wikipedia because it may not consistently be reliable

^{JUST PASSING}
----oooO----
----(----)----
-----\--(--
------\_)-
-----------Oooo ---
-----------(--- -)---
------------)-- /----
------------(_/ - ^BY

i directed you there to check the types of omniscience. thats all.

but many things there are true cos it discusses different opinions on the matter rather than one.

JMAN05:

* inherent omniscience - the ability[/b]to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
* total omniscience -[b]actually knowing everything that can be known.

So God has the ability, but chooses not to use it always.

check wikipedia.com

Since he is INHERENTLY omniscient, it means he already knows the consequences of "free will" even before he gave it to man.
The moment he conceived the idea of free will, he knew IMMEDIATELY what the consequences will be.
Therefore, saying that he chooses not to know our choices because of free will is absolute NONSENSE!

Not even the christian God can eat his cake and STILL have it!

Sorry to burst y'alls bubbles but God IS omniscient (Job 37:16 - Do you know the balancing of the clouds, the wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge, Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power, His understanding has no limit). He knows who is going to heaven or hell (For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified) and it all goes back before man was created... it's one of the mysteries Jesus tried to teach when he was on earth but few people can grasp it in their limited human minds. God was with the angels in heaven and everyone was on his side till the devil decided to make himself an entity outside God's dominion, creating everything that is dark and evil. Man came into being long after that occurred and then comes the mystery:

God created man and blessed him and breathed life into him and then the devil decided to start planting his own seed in the man God created. The freewill is just a tool through which each seed manifests who they have chosen to side with. However, the mystery of God's omniscience is that he knows that even among those doing good/bad, he knows his seed and knows those that will make it; he also knows the devil's seed that they will end up serving eternal punishment with him... Jesus said to some pharisees: "You are of your father the devil" and he will say to some who used his name "I NEVER knew you"... that is not saying He doesn't identify with them but that he was never the one that planted them... the devil planted them so they had no other way to express their freewill except to side with their planter - the devil.

If you want to ask if God created the devil, the answer is God created the angels but he knew one of them would rebel against him and separate himself from God ultimately making that angel the link to everything evil in the world but even then, God has supreme knowledge and power of and over him and everything else... don't get it twisted! Even Jesus demonstrated how freewill is supposed to work by saying "Father, if thou art willing, let this cup pass from me; yet not my will, but thine, be done". Unfortunately, unless you were God's seed from the start, your freewill is not capable of helping you make the choices that will take you back to him.

Overall, God is the author of the play, you're more or less a robot with so-called freewill that is destined to carry you to one of two sides! He has the right because He is GOD! He created all things for HIS PLEASURE...that is He is enjoying His movie! Whether you believe it or not, like it or not... you're not God so let it go... oh and by the way, God knows everything you're saying and going to say till you die even as you make all these arguments and He knows your final destination hahaha!

lookingout: Sorry to burst y'alls bubbles but God IS omniscient (Job 37:16 - Do you know the balancing of the clouds, the wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge, Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power, His understanding has no limit). He knows who is going to heaven or hell (For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified) and it all goes back before man was created... it's one of the mysteries Jesus tried to teach when he was on earth but few people can grasp it in their limited human minds. God was with the angels in heaven and everyone was on his side till the devil decided to make himself an entity outside God's dominion, creating everything that is dark and evil. Man came into being long after that occurred and then comes the mystery:

God created man and blessed him and breathed life into him and then the devil decided to start planting his own seed in the man God created. The freewill is just a tool through which each seed manifests who they have chosen to side with. However, the mystery of God's omniscience is that he knows that even among those doing good/bad, he knows his seed and knows those that will make it; he also knows the devil's seed that they will end up serving eternal punishment with him... Jesus said to some pharisees: "You are of your father the devil" and he will say to some who used his name "I NEVER knew you"... that is not saying He doesn't identify with them but that he was never the one that planted them... the devil planted them so they had no other way to express their freewill except to side with their planter - the devil.

If you want to ask if God created the devil, the answer is God created the angels but he knew one of them would rebel against him and separate himself from God ultimately making that angel the link to everything evil in the world but even then, God has supreme knowledge and power of and over him and everything else... don't get it twisted! Even Jesus demonstrated how freewill is supposed to work by saying "Father, if thou art willing, let this cup pass from me; yet not my will, but thine, be done". Unfortunately, unless you were God's seed from the start, your freewill is not capable of helping you make the choices that will take you back to him.

Overall, God is the author of the play, you're more or less a robot with so-called freewill that is destined to carry you to one of two sides! He has the right because He is GOD! He created all things for HIS PLEASURE...that is He is enjoying His movie! Whether you believe it or not, like it or not... you're not God so let it go... oh and by the way, God knows everything you're saying and going to say till you die even as you make all these arguments and He knows your final destination hahaha!

let me help with a summary.
we are just acting a movie from a producer who has read the story. Cool.
And you will ask why people don't believe(non believers).

Kabieosi:

^^^

Wikipedia is not a reliable source, it is not a site to base research(es) on

Even the creators of Wikipedia are the first to admit that not every entry is accurate

and that it might not be the best source of material for research papers

so be careful of what you read on wikipedia because it may not consistently be reliable

^{JUST PASSING}
----oooO----
----(----)----
-----\--(--
------\_)-
-----------Oooo ---
-----------(--- -)---
------------)-- /----
------------(_/ - ^BY

I bet you read further down the page

JMAN05:

* inherent omniscience - the ability[/b]to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
* total omniscience -[b]actually knowing everything that can be known.

So God has the ability, but chooses not to use it always.

check wikipedia.com

very cheap reply.
don't tell me you believe this "word trick"

nwuyag:
let me help with a summary.
we are just acting a movie from a producer who has read the story. Cool.
And you will ask why people don't believe(non believers).

I don't ask why people don't believe because I know those who will believe were programmed by God to do so from the beginning! If anyone is hearing a gospel and believes, it is because God chose to have them believe... no need to go further. I am not one of those that asks why Like I said, you are acting out your part!

lookingout:

I don't ask why people don't believe because I know those who will believe were programmed by God to do so from the beginning! If anyone is hearing a gospel and believes, it is because God chose to have them believe... no need to go further. I am not one of those that asks why Like I said, you are acting out your part!

ok man!
this is quite interesting.
I like your sincerity.

david_hume:

Since he is INHERENTLY omniscient, it means he already knows the consequences of "free will" even before he gave it to man.
The moment he conceived the idea of free will, he knew IMMEDIATELY what the consequences will be.
Therefore, saying that he chooses not to know our choices because of free will is absolute NONSENSE!

Not even the christian God can eat his cake and STILL have it!

He knew as free moral agents, they make their decisions either to follow Him or not, but He doesnt know beforehand that they will choose a part of disobedience. in fact trying to know such things is pointless since He is creating free moral agents, not robots.

After all He had created angels, perhaps many years before creating men, but they were faithful to Him all through before humans came on board. In short He has no need to predetermine their future as He was creating free moral agents.

JMAN05:

He knew as free moral agents, they make their decisions either to follow Him or not, but He doesnt know beforehand that they will choose a part of disobedience. in fact trying to know such things is pointless since He is creating free moral agents, not robots.

After all He had created angels, perhaps many years before creating men, but they were faithful to Him all through before humans came on board. In short He has no need to predetermine their future as He was creating free moral agents.

You don't get it.
If God is TRULY inherently omniscient TO BEGIN WITH, he would have known the consequences of free will and the choices of every unborn human as "free moral agents". Then he may now decide AFTERWARDS to turn the other cheek.
Unless you're telling me that God can re-program himself to UN-KNOW stuff.

E.g: you have the ability to see, but all you could see is nak*d women, so you pluck out your eyes, it doesn't change the fact that you've seen nak*d women before, does it?

WRONG!
Satan was once an angel before he disobeyed God.

JMAN05:

He knew as free moral agents, they make their decisions either to follow Him or not, but He doesnt know beforehand that they will choose a part of disobedience. in fact trying to know such things is pointless since He is creating free moral agents, not robots.

After all He had created angels, perhaps many years before creating men, but they were faithful to Him all through before humans came on board. In short He has no need to predetermine their future as He was creating free moral agents.

I request tht you check your assertion again.
Those omni-omniness abilities bring more confusion than one can imagine. Splitting omniscient into two only makes it worse. I don't want to go further.

david_hume:

You don't get it.
If God is TRULY inherently omniscient TO BEGIN WITH, he would have known the consequences of free will and the choices of every unborn human as "free moral agents". Then he may now decide AFTERWARDS to turn the other cheek.
Unless you're telling me that God can re-program himself to UN-KNOW stuff.

E.g: you have the ability to see, but all you could see is nak*d women, so you pluck out your eyes, it doesn't change the fact that you've seen nak*d women before, does it?

WRONG!
Satan was once an angel before he disobeyed God.

I would say you dont understand that definition. We may not use that sight as a good analogy, why? because when someone stands in your face you immediately see what he looks like, but foreseeing his future do not just come with his physical looks. You have to miraculously USE the ability to scan what the future will be.

Lets use the ability to sing, perhaps you have the ability to produce a bass when you want to. The fact that you have that ability doesnt mean you always sing. you use that ability when you wish to use it. and the fact that you dont use it always doesnt mean you dont have that ability.

I dont know if you understand?