Dibiachukwu:
Listen You people can make as many books as you want. This is what Solomon the wise said

Ecclesiastes 12

12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there
is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
I will listen to him

This is prophecy of Israel joining the Egyptians in the nether parts of the earth. (Southern Africa Area). The bible also calls the condition of those people hell.

Ezekiel 31

9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the
trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.
16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down
to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the
choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the
nether parts of the earth.
18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of
Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether
parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them
that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the
Lord GOD.


It is moronic for a christain that claims to believe the bible to turn around and say that Africa is the mother land. Where the bible clearly says it is eden.

When I say southern Africa I mean present day South Africa, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Botswana, Namibia, etc. The Khoisan have the oldest gene pool in the world.

Dibiachukwu:
How come romans are now there in Japhet. According to the bible, that area was populated by Japhet.
Germanic tribes is just like saying African tribes. Both peoples are definitely neither of both. They name any place they conquer according to their names. It is just like saying African tribes. Which is ridiculous.


Germany = Germania = Temania = Temanya = Teman


Genesis 36
9 And these are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in mount
Seir:
10 These are the names of Esau's sons; Eliphaz the son of Adah the wife of
Esau, Reuel the son of Bashemath the wife of Esau.
11 And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, and Gatam, and Kenaz.

Romans were Latin people not Germanic. Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, etc are all Latins.

Since we are talking about biblical issues I'll toss one at you guys enjoy...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlSAEuIIYVY

@KidStranglehold:
This is getting ridiculous. How am I discounting the OOA when it is accepted by many? And when have a said the early inhabitants were not black?? I said they were NOT genetically related to modern day Africans.

The point is that everyone is related to those OOA migrates which binds all humans together. But still there are genetic distances Those Andaman Islanders and Southeast Asian Negritos may look black, but they don't carry any African components, but Asian ones. If they don't then please provide a study proving that they do.

Again phenotype=/=genetics.

First off: I have no real dog in this fight. Also I'm not in any field of anthropology.

That said, speaking from my background I have to say that I get really annoyed with the argument in bold above. (Not because it's not true, because it is) But from the stand point of sorting and clustering data(of any kind) it's besides the point or to make it clearer it's arguing the wrong point. It also shows how annoyingly long a shadow people like Carlton coons and friends cast.

If I sort/cluster people using gold teeth as a delineator...




.
.
.
[img]http://www.troll.me/images/the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world/i-dont-always-get-paid-but-when-i-do-its-in-gold-teeth.jpg[/img]

Would it be correct to say "yes they all have gold teeth but they don't all have the same mother & father"? Absolutely that would be correct. But from a dry "matter a fact" stance it's beside the point. There is no such thing as a correct cluster outside of the question of "does it satisfy the delineator(s) used in the sorting process".

If it meets those requirements the next line of questions would be "what will this cluster be used for?"(I already see what it is) The thing is whenever I see the issue of "blacks in Asia" that last part is always skipped in the automatic assumption of the return/propagation of biological race based theory.


That's like telling these people...





"You people aren't genetically related so you can not advocate as a group"


As far as I'm concerned as long as they don't advocate the busted ideology of biological races and assorted nonsense terms like Caucasoid, negroid, mongoloid etc. they can sort and galvanize around what ever delineator that successfully brings them together for a common cause.


It's the knee jerk reaction to the "shadow of coons"(which is basically what it is) that annoys me most.

shymexx:

And where did I assert that Ijebu's aren't Yoruba's? However, that doesn't negate the fact that Ijebu's have no link whatsoever with Oduduwa. Ijebu's are called "omo obanta" and not "omo oduduwa" - can you peep the difference? Regardless, Oduduwa isn't the progenitor of the Yoruba race and he also met people in Ife and not all Yoruba subgroups have links with Oduduwa.

Anyway, my argument on this thread is about allowing people to explore their origins. I still don't know why all these Yoruba crap keeps popping up. I'm Yoruba and I'm not denying that. And most Ijebu's also align with Yoruba. However, if certain people want to explore other things - why can't they be allowed to do that? No one is disturbing the Itsekiri's who're mostly Ijebu's to claim Yoruba - so why the need to disturb people who don't want to be Yoruba?

Perhaps, if you have experienced some of the hate some of these people give out towards having an Ijebu identity, you would have empathy for those seeking a new identity.

i doff my hat 4u sir, ijebus are really great people, ijebus starts the use of cowry shell as money, ijebus arent cowards and white man's ass lickers they fought and almost whoop the british ass, the ikokore is a delicacy of kings, i dnt undastand y anybody should hate the ijebus.

hmm, I dont really know much about this history but Pst. Matthew Ashimolowo in his message ''am black and blessed'' claims the following:

1. Canaanites were black people but none of them is in existent anymore because GOD made it so due to their strong idolatary.

2. The Egyptians in bible days are not white or whatever colour they predominantly are today but were blacks; as such, blacks were the first set of people to be slave masters. And this they did more than once...

3. What represents middle east today were also resident by blacks and not the arabs.

4. Science, architecture and technology started with the blacks hence they taugt mathematics in their schools. Archaelogy findings showed they studied complex maths like algebra in the time of Moses. The famous Tower of Babel was built by a black man that seemed to be ruling at that time.

How come the blacks no longer live predominantly in this areas and have this science acumen?

Simple: fulfilment of prophecy as prescribed in the books of Isaiah 13 - the fall of babylon, a black nation. Till date, their land is not inhabited...archaeological findings revealed in the Witnesses' awake supports this.

Isaiah 18 and 19 also predicted the fall of Egypt all because of Idolatary. And that unfortunately is still a part and parcel of the ''black'' race.

Jeremiah 46

Ezekiel 32.

success_07: hmm, I dont really know much about this history but Pst. Matthew Ashimolowo in his message ''am black and blessed'' claims the following:

1. Canaanites were black people but none of them is in existent anymore because GOD made it so due to their strong idolatary.

2. The Egyptians in bible days are not white or whatever colour they predominantly are today but were blacks; as such, blacks were the first set of people to be slave masters. And this they did more than once...

3. What represents middle east today were also resident by blacks and not the arabs.

4. Science, architecture and technology started with the blacks hence they taugt mathematics in their schools. Archaelogy findings showed they studied complex maths like algebra in the time of Moses. The famous Tower of Babel was built by a black man that seemed to be ruling at that time.

How come the blacks no longer live predominantly in this areas and have this science acumen?

Simple: fulfilment of prophecy as prescribed in the books of Isaiah 13 - the fall of babylon, a black nation. Till date, their land is not inhabited...archaeological findings revealed in the Witnesses' awake supports this.

Isaiah 18 and 19 also predicted the fall of Egypt all because of Idolatary. And that unfortunately is still a part and parcel of the ''black'' race.

Jeremiah 46

Ezekiel 32.

Solomon got you all finished


Ecclesiastes 4

8 There is one alone, and there is not a second; yea, he hath neither child
nor brother: yet is there no end of all his labour; neither is his eye
satisfied with riches; neither saith he, For whom do I labour, and bereave my
soul of good? This is also vanity, yea, it is a sore travail.
16 There is no end of all the people, even of all that have been before them:
they also that come after shall not rejoice in him. Surely this also is vanity
and vexation of spirit.



Prove it that Egypt as a nation has been destroyed. Prove it
Also prove that Canaan has been destroyed.

[b]Ezekiel 29

3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh
king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which
hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers
to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy
rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.
5 And I will leave thee thrown into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of
thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought
together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field
and to the fowls of the heaven.
6 And all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know that I am the LORD, because
they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel.
7 When they took hold of thee by thy hand, thou didst break, and rend all
their shoulder: and when they leaned upon thee, thou brakest, and madest all
their loins to be at a stand.
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee,
and cut off man and beast out of thee.
9 And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that
I am the LORD: because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it.
10 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will
make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even
unto the border of Ethiopia.
11 No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through
it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years.
12 And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries
that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be
desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and
will disperse them through the countries.
13 Yet thus saith the Lord GOD; At the end of forty years will I gather the
Egyptians from the people whither they were scattered:
14 And I will bring again the captivity of Egypt, and will cause them to
return into the land of Pathros, into the land of their habitation; and they
shall be there a base kingdom.[/b]

Fulaman198:

Romans were Latin people not Germanic. Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, etc are all Latins.

Huhhh

Ecclesiastes 12

12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there
is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Genesis 36

15 These were dukes of the sons of Esau: the sons of Eliphaz the firstborn
son of Esau; duke Teman, duke Omar, duke Zepho, duke Kenaz,


Whatever they call themselves, they are still children of esau.

Fulaman198:

When I say southern Africa I mean present day South Africa, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Botswana, Namibia, etc. The Khoisan have the oldest gene pool in the world.

The oldest people are most probably Asians. The ancient Assyrians. Japhet. This was the first born of Noah.

Genesis 10

1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth:
and unto them were sons born after the flood.

Our children are usually of a smaller statue than us. Asians have the smallest statue on earth.



2Esdras
{5:51} He answered me, and said, Ask a woman that beareth children,
and she shall tell thee.

{5:52} Say unto her, Wherefore are unto they whom thou hast now
brought forth like those that were before, but less of stature?

{5:53} And she shall answer thee, They that be born in the the
strength of youth are of one fashion, and they that are born in the
time of age, when the womb faileth, are otherwise.

{5:54} Consider thou therefore also, how that ye are less of stature
than those that were before you.

Fulaman pls do something about this guy.

This thread is becoming tinted with .....lemme nt complete it

macof: Fulaman pls do something about this guy.

This thread is becoming tinted with .....lemme nt complete it

I doubt if it would be right for Fulaman to do anything about it. He is expressing his opinions, and hasn't used abusive language.

Personally, though, he just killed this thread for me. Messed up.

Radoillo:

I doubt if it would be right for Fulaman to do anything about it. He is expressing his opinions, and hasn't used abusive language.

Personally, though, he just killed this thread for me. Messed up.

You are allergic to the holy book? how are you religious then? he has not mess the thread up, he is telling you he's not your audience and the thread is not someplace to push pgd thesis about. Why dont you guys push for anthropological society of nairaland and stop lying in wait for cultural post to overwhealm and derail it?

Igbos, you are the children of the most high.

Ecclesiastes 12

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his
commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

RKVINTLTD: Hello Nairalanders This interest me because I am an IJEBU.
MY FAMILY NAME IS OSHOKOYA.
The prominent names among Ijebus take the following forms;
Oshokoya
Osunkoya
Odunaike
Odulaja
Adekoya
Onabanjo
Onafowokan
Onabanro
Osibanjo
Osinbajo
Osikoya
Awonuga
Awosika
Awolowo


Remember in those days Transportation use luxurious buses call Osikoya Transport Service In Lagos, Ijebu & Western Region.

Ijebu omo alare
Ijebu ode ajalura
Omo afidipote mole
Omo alagemo merindilogun

Ijebus migrated from the Benin Kingdom and settled at Ijebu ode, that is where we have Ijebu water side.
Also the Yorubas came from the Benin Kingdom and settled in Ile-ife.
Therefore Ijebu is part and parcel of Ile-ife, The origin of Yorubas.
That was why all the Yoruba race could not resist any Person sent to rule them from Alaafin of Oyo (the Eldest of Oduduwa) all of them came from Ile-ife, and Ooni was made King in Ile-ife since no one among the decendant of Oduduwa was ready to hold the title.

Today, Since Ile-ife is the ancestral home of Yorubas that hold the Biggest Title of the Yorubas, The Ooni is the Most Highest ruller of the Yorubas. The first King of Ijebu-Ode was Crowned on the consent of The Oba of Ile-Ife.

You can now see the relationship, Yoruba came from Ile-Ife through Oduduwa, after Oduduwa died the 14 Children left Ile-Ife to head the extended Yoruba towns as Kings e.g. Alaafin of Oyo, Orangun of Ila-orangun, Shoun of Ogbomoso, Afonja of Ilorin, e.t.c.
Ijebus who migrated from the Benin Kingdom where His eminence King Omonoba Ereduwa, Iku Okpolo kpolo of Benin Kindom reigns came through the Niger Delta water ways and settle at Ijebu water side before extending to Ijebu-Ode, that is leaving the waterside to a plane and prominent town, also those who do not want to come to Ijebu ode decided to settle at different locations every where and that is why they call another one Ijebu Igbo because some Ijebu willing settled at the Farm location and not to come back to Ijebu-Ode again and were given King call The Akarigbo of Ijebu-Igbo. The Ijebu-ode Kingdom is the head of all Kingdom and was Headed by The Awujale of Ijebu-ode Crown by the Alaafin of Oyo of those days.

Ijebu as part of Ile-ife can not have any link with Jebusites in the Bible because Ile-ife or Oduduwa or Ooni, or Alaafin of Oyo do not have anything to do with Jebusite in Bible.


Oba Ereduwa recognized all the Oba of the Yorubas as the decendants of Oduduwa, since he new that they migrated from Benin Kindgom and settled at Ile-ife to form there own race. There is this understanding between Bendel and Yoruba.

In Yoruba Kingdom today, The Oba of Benin Kingdom, The Ooni of Ife and the Oba of Lagos are Three pillars of the Yoruba Kingdom.

That is why there is always cordial relationship with these Three Rulers, Go and make your research. Oba of Lagos always visit Oba of Benin from time to time, The Ooni of Ife too do pay homage to Oba of Benin and vice vasa.

You can see that This Obas knows The History of their ancestors, their origin, their race and Royal interrelationship.

There is know Oba that will reign in Yoruba Land that The Ooni will not know about as well as The Oba of Benin and Oba of Lagos.
They know how they do there Search for Oba, through the Ifa Olokun Asorodayo which they belief.

That is why you can see that, there is a mixed up among the Ijebus and Lagos as well as Ijos, Itshekiri, Ondo, Bendel as well as Ilorin, Oyo, Osun, Ibadan, Abeokuta, Yewa, Awori, Republic of Benin outside Nigeria formerly call Dahomey, they speak Original Yoruba fluently.

In all these tribes, you will find one common relation in there thong or speech, when they pronounce certain things, you begin to wander how they are similar to the order even have the same interpretation.

Ijebus are from Ile-Ife in Nigeria and not from any other place call Jebusites. We have some words that are the same but have different meaning, We have some Countries bearing almost similar Names.

Can we say Nigeria is Derived from Niger Republic ? Nigeria is simply ' River Niger Area' or Niger-Area or Nigeria. The wife of Lord Lugard Name Nigeria during British empire.

What of Algeria and We have similar Colours of Green and White, which always cause confusion during Football clashes to know which Jessy to wear.

So, Ijebu remains Ijebu.

The most incoherent, inconsistent, inarticulate, confused, un-scholar-stic, uninformed, un-intelligent treatise i ever came about on Nairaland.

Radoillo:

This is culture section, so anthropologists and social scientists here are in the right place. There's a religion section for religious discourses

You guys wanted to understand culture inside out only to end up at the wrong thing that you all can not explain. please come back home friends. Dnnt get lost comppletely in bottomless time of Charlee

KidStranglehold:
Please don't put words in my mouth...When my intentions are not anything like that. First off...You're the one trying to write away the black looking Tuaregs as slaves. When..
1. The Bella/Songhai people are confined to Mali.
2. There is no proof of those lighter skinned or darker skinned Tuaregs being the original Tuaregs. Like I said Middle Easterners did mix with Tuareg's. The caliphate had many Tuareg soldiers.
3. Libya has a lot of dark skinned Tuaregs and historians say those sam Tuaregs are descendants of the Garamantes who lived in Libya. You have no proof to discredit this or write away all darker skinned Tuaregs as just slaves.

OFCOURSE THEY ARe SLAVE-DESCENT! :@

(MOST OF THEM)

It is pointless arguing with you. you have never even seen these people. I would suggest you next time to pay a vist too these areas. You will know what Im talking about.

1) Have you heard of the slave trade?
Have you heard of transportation of slaves?

When slaves are traded, they can travel far distances, especially when in the entourage of nomadic peoples.

No middle easterns mixed with Tuareg. Tuareg dont even claim genoglogies from Arabs, as is common among people who mix with Arabs. Arab men will never give their women to non-Arabs and Arab men who marry Berber women; their offspring will claim Arab, not Berber. This is why most Arabs in the Maghreb are not pure Arabs.

I know Arab custom and I have lived with Arabs.

You are again intent on discrediting the dominant caste brown-skinned Tuareg by claiming they are mixed, etc.
There is no instance of mixing. These Tuareg have sharp weather-worn features that are distinct and you can make out they are pure. The mixed Tuareg dont exhibit this.

I cant explain such things to you. You should go there and pay a visit and see these things.

If it is true that the Garamantes are descended into the Tuareg, then I guess the only other reasonable thing to say would be that they were brown skinned and not blacks.

Your point is just relying on that 1 comment made by Herodotus. It is not even accurate in terms of research. It is just a general comment made on all Africans encountered.

No you're just putting words in my mouth...Again to fit YOUR personal bias to write off the blacker skinned Tuaregs as just slaves. I already sourced you evidence which STATE the date for Hinan is NOT CONSISTENT. They clearly state Hinan is between the centuries of 4th-5th century. You're trying to write off all dark skinned Tuaregs as slaves but forget that there are NO Bella or Songhay people in Libya...Libya where Tuaregs are regarded as black and where the Garamantes civilization arose.

What personal BIAS?

I have no personal bias! I am dark-skinned myself. It is the truth!

Most of the Tuareg population are slaves. The Tuareg still enslave nearly 8% of the Niger population and maybe even more in the Sahel.

If you dont believe this , go check out the facts. 85% of Massina Fuulbe were enslaved in the Bella caste. nearly 2-3rds of the Songhay have been enslaved. These are not small figures!

Entire villages are slave villages.

These ikelan are very common throughout the sahel.

If you notice, most black Touareg live in settled villages, for most of the season.

In the 70s many such castes were freed and today share near-equal status with the rest of the upper-caste Tuareg, though intermarriage is minimalf non-existent these days .

Again where is proof that she died before the Garamantes collapse. They don't even have a date of death for her. For the last time there is no consistent date for her. Also like I said Garamantes were a nomadic type civilization that had influence from central Sahara, up to the coastal parts of North Africa. They migrated everywhere.

What do you mean no proof?

you yourself have not shown me any proper proof that they were nomadic.

btw check this out:

An anthropological study of the remains published in 1968 concluded the skeleton was that of a woman 1.72 to 1.76 metres tall, belonging to a Mediterranean race, who had probably never had children and who was probably lame because of deformation of the lumbar and sacral areas. The body is now in the Bardo Museum in Algiers.

Read my post again. Did I specifically state Nubian were nomads?? I clearly stated after the fall of Nubia and the arrival of the desertification of the area that a nomadic culture arose. Why? Because is was NEEDED. It can't get more simple as that. Also Nubians aren't even one monolithic group btw.

Nomadic culture arose among who?

What nomads? The only nomads I can think of are the Bejawi and the Sudanese Arabs and the Arab invaders who brought in their Bedu culture.

Where's proof? When I cited sources that stated some were and the Romans referred to them as barbaric nomads.

very vague. show me the proof again?

That's just your opinion that Tuaregs are different from Berbers when:
1. Most other Berbers lost their culture for an Arab/European one.
2. Tuareg language is the most Ancient of all Berber languages.
3. Tuaregs still have their ancient Berber script.
4. Berber is JUST LANGUAGE GROUP!
5. Berbers are not just one monolithic group. The only thing they share is language.
6. Tuareg males carry Y-DNA Berber marker E-M81 in HIGH frequencies.

Again, I have 2 lines on this issue:

1)They are not Berbers but a separate culture.
2) ( Im more strongly oriented towards this one) They are Berbers and possible descended from the Garamantes. However , either the Gramantes evolved into todays light brown Tuareg , or the very description provided by Herodotus was very vague and unreliable, about the physical features of the Tuareg.
Either ways I 100% believe that the purest Tuareg are the dominant caste of the tribal and clan nobility, centred around Alhaggar and among the majority of the "nomadic" Tuareg.

They actually did. But also true they did live near the coast too.

haha thnx for posting this pic. They are obviously from the outskirts and quite coastal.

you shot yourself in your own foot.

Actually a lot near Morocco where you say your Tuareg friends claim where Tuaregs come from...

SO now Southern Libya is near Morocco. Great.

what next?

Actually there were settled people. Look up the Vinca culture of prehistoric Europe and also the Aterian culture of Northwest Africa. Both were settled.

but they started out as nomads.

Actually they do and they are not just copy paste. I provided sources, now wheres yours? It cant get any clearer, another reason why...

still not clear. you didnt provide legitimate or proper sources. just random website articles.

Tuareg are still using the ancient scripts that were part of the Garamante Empire, known asTifinagh, tifin negh, which means 'our invention' in Tuareg language. ( a script that was used to write other African languages such as Songhay). This script is derived from pure Libyan Abjad script which has many similarities to the Egyptian hieratic script.

Ancient Garamante script




Modern Tuareg pendant using the Tifinagh script
[img]http://www.nmafa.si.edu/exhibits/inscribing/images/eduimages/fig-5b-tuareg-pendant-bckLG.jpg[/img]

This is a slap in the face to yours and others who argue that modern Tuareg don't represent the "original" Berber-speakers and the ancient Libyans(before infusion with the sea people). Curious how they're the only "Berber" people who have preserved that script. Again the Garaments were BERBER SPEAKERS. I had already shown you that.

possible. I have already told you my 2 streams of thought above.

1. Again yes we have. Must Historians agree. And lets not forget Tuaregs are not monolithic in origin. I forgot to mention that their a confederacy.

Let us also not forget that they are an Ethnic Confederacy . Not just any random confederacy between villages or kingdoms.

2. How is it racist?? Those are the Greeks words and how they refereed to the inhabitants. No one is basing their points on inaccurate claims, just that you not getting the point. The Greeks were there, saw the people and described how they looked. Not only that but detailed the word Ethiopian. Its the Greeks words who were actually there against yours.

They have not provided anything about their culture , ethncity, etc. They just branded anyone they saw in Africa as Ethiopians . (except certain Mediterraneans or Europeans).



My final point:

E1b1b1b (E-M81), the major haplogroup in Tuaregs , is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in North Africa , dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in North Africa 5,600 years ago . The parent clade E1b1b originated in East Africa . Colloquially referred to as[b] the Berber marker for its prevalence among Mozabite, Middle Atlas, [size=24pt]Kabyle people[/size] and other Berber groups[/b] , E-M81 is also predominant among other North African groups. It reaches frequencies of up to 100 percent in some parts of the Maghreb .

The other major haplogroup is E1b1a mainly found in sub-saharan Africa.

Overall, a cline appears, with Algerian Tuaregs being closer to other Berbers and Arabs (note these are in all-probability not pure Arabs, but Arabized Berbers.The pan-Berber movement only arose recently in the towns and cities) , and those from southern Mali being more similar to subsaharan West Africans.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people


Finally in all conclusion, Alhaggar, Tasilli, etc., are all major seats of the Tuareg confederacy located in Algeria and surrounding areas. Tin Hinan died here too. These Tuaregs are mostly of the light-brown sort. (The classic Tuareg look).

These in my opinion are the pures of the pure Tuaregs. They have the closest relationsip to the Berbers.

THe second group as given in the source above, is of those Tuareg from Below Mali and other such areas. These are the dark-skinned ones with close genetic affinity to Sub-Saharan groups.

what I call , of slave descent and other client castes.

Fulaman198:

Tuaregs actually claim to be of Libco-Berber origin. There are no Tuaregs in Morocco, just other Berber/Amazigh groups exist there. Watch Issa Dicko's video on Tuaregs and their origin (he is Tuareg himself). If I can't find it online, I will have to upload it. Majority of Tuaregs are what America would classify as black. Some look Arab because of mixing with Arabs.

possible. Im actually sort of agreeing to some extent to the Garamaente theory. I just do not believe in the Roman description. it is very vague and innacurate.

What America classifies doesnt matter.

they know only 3 races: Black, White and Yellow.

the rest are mixed.


To hell with the americans. they do not decide for us.


so know the light-brown Tuareg are mixed but the blacks are not?

what sort of bias is this? When we know who were the enslaved and who were the nobility!

Cmon. those black Tuaregs look like Hausas and FUlanis. They are not Tuareg.

success_07: hmm, I dont really know much about this history but Pst. Matthew Ashimolowo in his message ''am black and blessed'' claims the following:

1. Canaanites were black people but none of them is in existent anymore because GOD made it so due to their strong idolatary.

2. The Egyptians in bible days are not white or whatever colour they predominantly are today but were blacks; as such, blacks were the first set of people to be slave masters. And this they did more than once...

3. What represents middle east today were also resident by blacks and not the arabs.

4. Science, architecture and technology started with the blacks hence they taugt mathematics in their schools. Archaelogy findings showed they studied complex maths like algebra in the time of Moses. The famous Tower of Babel was built by a black man that seemed to be ruling at that time.

How come the blacks no longer live predominantly in this areas and have this science acumen?

Simple: fulfilment of prophecy as prescribed in the books of Isaiah 13 - the fall of babylon, a black nation. Till date, their land is not inhabited...archaeological findings revealed in the Witnesses' awake supports this.

Isaiah 18 and 19 also predicted the fall of Egypt all because of Idolatary. And that unfortunately is still a part and parcel of the ''black'' race.

Jeremiah 46

Ezekiel 32.

everyone is black. even Chinese are black. mumu


check the time-frame and then talk.

PAGAN 9JA:



everyone is black. even Chinese are black. mumu


check the time-frame and then talk.

Ahhh, umm ......Mmmm (something smells fishy here)

sniff sniff....
Hmm, I smell politics at play
.
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.
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I'll sit back and watch

Radoillo:

I doubt if it would be right for Fulaman to do anything about it. He is expressing his opinions, and hasn't used abusive language.

Personally, though, he just killed this thread for me. Messed up.

I'm just putting my face in my palm right now

PAGAN 9JA:


possible. Im actually sort of agreeing to some extent to the Garamaente theory. I just do not believe in the Roman description. it is very vague and innacurate.

What America classifies doesnt matter.

they know only 3 races: Black, White and Yellow.

the rest are mixed.


To hell with the americans. they do not decide for us.


so know the light-brown Tuareg are mixed but the blacks are not?

what sort of bias is this? When we know who were the enslaved and who were the nobility!

Cmon. those black Tuaregs look like Hausas and FUlanis. They are not Tuareg.

I am sure the Tuaregs like Issa Dicko know their own history better than a Hausa man (you) or Fulani man (me) would know.

*Sigh*

Here we go again...

PAGAN 9JA:

OFCOURSE THEY ARe SLAVE-DESCENT! :@

(MOST OF THEM)

Yet you still have no proof for that outlandish claim.

PAGAN 9JA:

It is pointless arguing with you. you have never even seen these people. I would suggest you next time to pay a vist too these areas. You will know what Im talking about.

I've sen plenty of North Africans in real life so don't say who I've seen or haven't seen. And even so, it doesn't matter if I've never seen them or not since simple research does it all.

PAGAN 9JA:

1) Have you heard of the slave trade?

Have you heard of transportation of slaves?

When slaves are traded, they can travel far distances, especially when in the entourage of nomadic peoples.

Yeah and what you and most people don't understand is that SLAVES WERE NOT repeat NOT brought to North Africa. The bulk of the slaves were brought to the Near East.

PAGAN 9JA:

No middle easterns mixed with Tuareg. Tuareg dont even claim genoglogies from Arabs, as is common among people who mix with Arabs. Arab men will never give their women to non-Arabs and Arab men who marry Berber women; their offspring will claim Arab, not Berber. This is why most Arabs in the Maghreb are not pure Arabs.

Yes they have and you're clearly being denial about that. It doesn't matter if Tuaregs don't claim Arab heritage and the middle east doesn't only include Arabs. You keep forgetting there were many non Africans apart of the Caliphate, who were then absorbed into many Tuareg groups.

PAGAN 9JA:

I know Arab custom and I have lived with Arabs.

You are again intent on discrediting the dominant caste brown-skinned Tuareg by claiming they are mixed, etc.

There is no instance of mixing. These Tuareg have sharp weather-worn features that are distinct and you can make out they are pure. The mixed Tuareg dont exhibit this.

Again stop putting words in my mouth when your trying to discredit ALL darker looking Tuaregs as slaves. And I already told you a million times that most Tuaregs look like this!









Also I said the Middle Eastern ones like this(ones you keep posting):



Are mixed with Middle Eastern/Europeans. Early historic text NEVER described the Tuaregs as that. If so give me a source that states such. I DARE you...No No...I DOUBLE DARE you.

Again your ridiculous claims about all dark skinned Tuaregs being result of slavery, you still have not counted my main arguments. Because...

1. Most Tuareg slaves were Songhay/Bella like you stated. Libyan DOES NOT have those two ethnic groups.

2. Libya has high amounts of dark skinned Libyans and yet no Songhay/Bella people are native to Libya.

3. Ancient Libya is where the Ancient Berbers lived in the first place and here is how the Ancient Egyptians depicted them...

[img]http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/dakhla_balat_ain_asil/Pb112404.jpg[/img]

[img]http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/bahariyah_bawiti/Pb092216.jpg[/img]

[img]http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/bahariyah_bawiti/Pb092220.jpg[/img]

[img]http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/bahariyah_bawiti/Pb092235.jpg[/img]

So again where is your evidence that all black Tuaregs are slave descendants?

PAGAN 9JA:

I cant explain such things to you. You should go there and pay a visit and see these things.

A person who was part Tuareg was the one who told me and that they were most likely descendants of the Garamantes.

PAGAN 9JA:

If it is true that the Garamantes are descended into the Tuareg, then I guess the only other reasonable thing to say would be that they were brown skinned and not blacks.

This is most the most ridiculous thing you've said. Your using modern day Tuaregs to say the Garamentes were not black(when some themselves were be labeled black). The Greeks knew what they saw.

PAGAN 9JA:

Your point is just relying on that 1 comment made by Herodotus. It is not even accurate in terms of research. It is just a general comment made on all Africans encountered.

Prove that is not accurate. When many historians come to that conclusion. Its your opinion against all of theirs. And it wasn't just Herodotus, but other classical writers. But not only that you still can't write away the Tuaregs still using the Garamentes script.

PAGAN 9JA:

What personal BIAS?

I have no personal bias! I am dark-skinned myself. It is the truth!

I thought you said before that you were 'brown skinned'...

PAGAN 9JA:

Most of the Tuareg population are slaves. The Tuareg still enslave nearly 8% of the Niger population and maybe even more in the Sahel.

Where is proof of this? I know there is slavery still in Mali, but its small scale that its not even noticeable.

PAGAN 9JA:

If you dont believe this , go check out the facts. 85% of Massina Fuulbe were enslaved in the Bella caste. nearly 2-3rds of the Songhay have been enslaved. These are not small figures!

Why don't YOU give me sources. Also like I said Snnghays and Bella's are not even native to Libya, where there is a high percentage of darker skinned Tuaregs. But here is when it gets worse from you.

You say Tuaregs enslaved Songhay/Bella people(which I doubt). Well in Mali...Those are where those groups reside. Yet Tuaregs males in Mali have around 81.1% Berber E-M81(which has ancestry in East Africa).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_North_Africa

And most Mali Tuareg males look like this:



So you can't write those Mali Tuaregs off as slaves. Since they carry high frequencies of BERBER marker E-M81.

PAGAN 9JA:

Entire villages are slave villages.

These ikelan are very common throughout the sahel.

If you notice, most black Touareg live in settled villages, for most of the season.

In the 70s many such castes were freed and today share near-equal status with the rest of the upper-caste Tuareg, though intermarriage is minimalf non-existent these days .

Yet they carry high frequencies of BERBER E-M81! Even those from Burkina Faso at 77%!!!! :O :O :O

The only ones that don't are those from Niger who only carry 11% of it and they look like this!!!! :O :O :O



There goes your all black skinned Tuaregs being descendants of slave down the drain. Also Niger Tuaregs carry high frequencies of Non Afircan Eurasian R.

PAGAN 9JA:

What do you mean no proof?

you yourself have not shown me any proper proof that they were nomadic.

Already did...Read my other posts. This is getting tiring...

PAGAN 9JA:

btw check this out:

An anthropological study of the remains published in 1968 concluded the skeleton was that of a woman 1.72 to 1.76 metres tall, belonging to a Mediterranean race, who had probably never had children and who was probably lame because of deformation of the lumbar and sacral areas. The body is now in the Bardo Museum in Algiers.

Where the heck did you get this outdated garbage?? First off any sane person that wants to keep his/her job as a anthrologist or historians knows that there is no such thing as a Mediterranean race and that is nothing more than just psuedo-science, but its no coincedence since your source is from the 60's.



Here is a more UP TO DATE view.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/05/gaddafi-sahara-lost-civilisation-garamantes

The late Muammar Gaddafi was fond of insisting on the links between his republic and sub-Saharan Africa. He was less interested, however, in celebrating the black African civilisation that flourished for more than 1,500 years within what are now Libya's borders, and that was barely acknowledged in the Gaddafi-era curriculum.

Now, however, researchers into the Garamantes – a "lost" Saharan civilisation that flourished long before the Islamic era – are hoping that Libya's new government can restore the warrior culture, mentioned by Herodotus in his Histories, to its rightful place in Libya's history.

And


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5bkNlGg0H0



Garamante/Nubia skull sugery:

http://io9.com/5905871/the-lost-civilizations-that-pioneered-skull-surgery

PAGAN 9JA:

Nomadic culture arose among who?

What nomads? The only nomads I can think of are the Bejawi and the Sudanese Arabs and the Arab invaders who brought in their Bedu culture.

*sigh*

Conclusion

To sum up, Nubia is Egypt’s African ancestor. What linked Ancient Egypt to the rest of the North African cultures is this strong tie with the Nubian pastoral nomadic lifestyle, the same pastoral background commonly shared by most of the ancient Saharan and modern sub-Saharan societies. Thus, not only did Nubia have a prominent role in the origin of Ancient Egypt, it was also a key area for the origin of the entire African pastoral tradition.

http://www.academia.edu/545582/The_Nubian_Pastoral_Culture_as_Link_between_Egypt_and_Africa_A_View_from_the_Archaeological_Record

PAGAN 9JA:

very vague. show me the proof again?

The findings challenge a view dating back to Roman accounts that the Garamantes consisted of barbaric nomads and troublemakers on the edge of the Roman Empire.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111107121448.htm

And you keep forgetting that NOT ALL TUAREGS were nomads in earlier times. Many actually settled in Timbuktu and became prosfessors and scholars. Those same Tuaregs are still there!!!

PAGAN 9JA:

Again, I have 2 lines on this issue:

1)They are not Berbers but a separate culture.

2) ( Im more strongly oriented towards this one) They are Berbers and possible descended from the Garamantes. However , either the Gramantes evolved into todays light brown Tuareg , or the very description provided by Herodotus was very vague and unreliable, about the physical features of the Tuareg.

Ridiclous...Just ridiclous...

1. They were a BERBER PEOPLE REPEAT BERBER PEOPLE. They spoke a Berber language. Heck the Tuaregs STILL carry the ancient Garamante script...Also Libya was where many Berber ancient kingdoms bagan. But more inportantly...



So there you have it they were BERBERS!



2. Africans range in colors. Tuaregs as a whole are a colorful people. Anyways like I said Africans have wide range of skin color.

"Regional differences in local within-population [skin color]

diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the

sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation. For both

measures, the average level of within-population diversity is

higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions.

This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation

between within-population diversity and distance from the equator.

Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the

same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits."-- Relethford JH.(2000). Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations. Hum Biol. 72(5):773-80.)



And dude Ethiopian also included Indians who were called Eastern Ethiopians. Anyone of a brown to burnt skin tone like with most Africans. The Greeks clearly knew this.

PAGAN 9JA:

Either ways I 100% believe that the purest Tuareg are the dominant caste of the tribal and clan nobility, centred around Alhaggar and among the majority of the "nomadic" Tuareg.

Tuaregs like other Berbers are from Northeast Africa. I'll show you proof of that in another post.

PAGAN 9JA:

haha thnx for posting this pic. They are obviously from the outskirts and quite coastal.

you shot yourself in your own foot.

How? I said Garamentes had influence near the coastal. Also Alhaggar is near that map location, which you claim Hinan is from. Sorry I didn't shoot myself in the foot.

PAGAN 9JA:

SO now Southern Libya is near Morocco. Great.

what next?

Stop with the projections. Never even stated. I said they had influence near he coastal region. Romans also account to this since they raided Roman towns and such.

PAGAN 9JA:

but they started out as nomads.

No they didn't...They were hunter gatherers.

PAGAN 9JA:

still not clear. you didnt provide legitimate or proper sources. just random website articles.

Actually yes I did. You're jus being in denial. Again where are your sources. Most historians agree with me and most of my claims were backed up.

PAGAN 9JA:

possible. I have already told you my 2 streams of thought above.

Yeah and evidence is looking like Garamentes has close kin with Tuaregs.

PAGAN 9JA:

Let us also not forget that they are an Ethnic Confederacy . Not just any random confederacy between villages or kingdoms.

Yeah...And which all Tuaregs do not have monolithic oirigins.

PAGAN 9JA:

They have not provided anything about their culture , ethncity, etc. They just branded anyone they saw in Africa as Ethiopians . (except certain Mediterraneans or Europeans).

Mediterreaneans and Europeans are not Africans. Now are they? -__-

And Mediterrenean people do not exiest so stop using that word. IIRC Italians, Spaniards and Greeks were all related to Europeans, while people of the Levant were related to othe Near Easteners. And yes...They have provided stuff about their culture.

PAGAN 9JA:

My final point:

E1b1b1b (E-M81), the major haplogroup in Tuaregs , is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in North Africa , dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in North Africa 5,600 years ago . The parent clade E1b1b originated in East Africa . Colloquially referred to as[b] the Berber marker for its prevalence among Mozabite, Middle Atlas, [size=24pt]Kabyle people[/size] and other Berber groups[/b] , E-M81 is also predominant among other North African groups. It reaches frequencies of up to 100 percent in some parts of the Maghreb .

The other major haplogroup is E1b1a mainly found in sub-saharan Africa.

Overall, a cline appears, with Algerian Tuaregs being closer to other Berbers and Arabs (note these are in all-probability not pure Arabs, but Arabized Berbers.The pan-Berber movement only arose recently in the towns and cities) , and those from southern Mali being more similar to subsaharan West Africans.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people

You should really try to read your sources. But I'll break everything down for you.

1. They're only talking about Y-DNA...

2. They state the parent clade of E-M81 originating in East Africa. Which again agrees with my claim of proto Berbers originating from East Africa.

[img]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg444/scaled.php?server=444&filename=cartevu8.jpg&res=landing[/img]



ABSTRACT

The Berber languages are relatively well-studied, and it is possible to explore their geographical extent today and in the past, and also reconstruct basic and culturalvocabulary which can be attributed to speakers of proto-Berber. However, there is a major problem reconciling this with textual and archaeological evidence. The proto-Berber we can reconstruct seems to be far to recent to match what we know from other evidence; indeed it seems to reach back to period as late as 200 AD. Textual evidence (and Canarian inscriptions) point to a period prior to 400 BC, while the most credible archaeological correlate would be the spread of pastoralism across the Sahara, pointing to the period 5-4000 BP. The paper explores this disjunction and suggests the underlying reason for it is massive language levelling in the period after 0 AD. In other words, the original speakers of Berber did indeed spread out westwards from the Nile Valley, 5-4000 years ago, but the diversity which evolved in this period was eliminated by a sociolinguistic processes which levelled divergent speech forms. Historical linguists have been wary of invoking such process until recently, but evidence is mounting for their importance in many and varied cultures, including China, Borneo and Madagascar. Hypotheses are evaluated to explain the Berber situation and it is suggested that a combination of the introduction of the camel and the establishment of the Roman limes were the key factors in creating this linguistic bottleneck.

http://www.rogerblench.info/Archaeology/Africa/Berber%20prehistory%202012.pdf



3. Your source states that Tuaregs of 'Sub Sahara' have more West African Y-DNA. Yet a simple click on your source and looking at the chart tell us this:

Tuaregs from Libya(North Africa):

Berber E-M81:

48.9%

West African E1b1a:

42.5%

Tuaregs from Mali(West Africa):

Berber E-M81:

81.8%

West African E1b1a:

9.1%

Tuaregs from Burkina Faso(West Africa)

Berber E-M81:

77.8%

West African E1b1a:

16.7%

Tuaregs from Niger(West Africa):

Berber E-M81:

11.1%

West African E1b1a:

44.4%

Non African Rb1:

33.3%

Your own source refutes itself. This is the reason I try best not to use Wikipedia. Your source states that Tuaregs in 'Sub Sahara Africa' show more kinship with West Africans. Yet Burkina Faso which is deep in West Africa have Tuaregs that have more Berber E-M81 than Tuaregs from North African country like Libyan. And for you not to decredit Libyan Berbers...Algerian Berbers show even LESS BERBER E-M81 than Libyan Berbers...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_North_Africa



And have high freqencies of Middle Eastern J...The only reason why Algerian Tuaregs cluster with Berbers and 'Arabs' because they absorbed a lot of admixture from them, especually from Algeria. Not because Algerians Tuaregs are the orginal Tuaregs...Again Algerian Berbers carry little frequncies of signature Berber marker E-M81. Again this is why I try to resist using Wikipedia.



Oh and as for the Kabyles who you made sure to highlight. Early historic sources indicate them looking no different from other Africans:

890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.

PAGAN 9JA:

2. They say

Finally in all conclusion, Alhaggar, Tasilli, etc., are all major seats of the Tuareg confederacy located in Algeria and surrounding areas. Tin Hinan died here too. These Tuaregs are mostly of the light-brown sort. (The classic Tuareg look).

These in my opinion are the pures of the pure Tuaregs. They have the closest relationsip to the Berbers.

THe second group as given in the source above, is of those Tuareg from Below Mali and other such areas. These are the dark-skinned ones with close genetic affinity to Sub-Saharan groups.

what I call , of slave descent and other client castes.

Sorry but your source denunks itself...And badly...

Also sorry PAGAN, but it gets worse for you. Like I said Tuaregs are NOT one monolithic people and as result of this many Tuareg groups have many origin myths.

Tuareg relate their origins as the following:

Tuareg origin myths relate the Tuareg to Lemtuna, the ancestress of the Berbers who lived around Ghadames in Tripolitania (Nicolaisen 1963: p. 405). Another myth relates the Tuareg to the legendary Queen Tin Hinan who came to Abalessa in the Ahaggar region from Tafilelt in Morocco (p. 69). According to Prasse, these legends suggest the Tuareg of southern Algeria came from Libya and Morocco, and the Kel Ayr and Kel Geres have Libyan origins. Tuareg from Mali claim to have come from Morocco or Mauritania[b] (p. 71). Tuareg society has always been [b]characterized by rivalry between groups, and in time different groups have enjoyed supremacy over others (p. 72). When the French arrived in the Hoggar they were met with great resistance and peace was reached in 1917. It lasted until independence in 1960. The French let the Tuareg continue their nomadic lifestyles; however, they saw to it that no concentration of power emerged (p. 80). Although the French did think of setting up an independent Tuareg state, the idea never materialized (p. 80)

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=5673875290498

AND TO FINALLY END THIS DEBATE....

KidStranglehold:


I've sen plenty of North Africans in real life so don't say who I've seen or haven't seen. And even so, it doesn't matter if I've never seen them or not since simple research does it all.

practical is always better than theory.

btw you are a black supermacist or something of that sort. im sure.

i dont understand why you are trying to bring your AA racism into Africa?

Yeah and what you and most people don't understand is that SLAVES WERE NOT repeat NOT brought to North Africa. The bulk of the slaves were brought to the Near East.

Wtf? That doesnt make any sense.

The Tuareg took the slaves they captured wherever they went. Or sold them on different points of their trade routes.

Yes they have and you're clearly being denial about that. It doesn't matter if Tuaregs don't claim Arab heritage and the middle east doesn't only include Arabs. You keep forgetting there were many non Africans apart of the Caliphate, who were then absorbed into many Tuareg groups.

You are talking nonsense. Tuaregs CANNOT have mixed with Arabs. you are not understanding the custom of the tribes. You are just going by theory. I jus explained why it is impossible for Arabs to mix with the Tuareg.

No other non-African was absorbed into Tuareg. You are just making that up without any proof inorder to promote your black-centrism and to disregard the Pure light-skinned Tuareg as mere mixed-bred.

You are just trying to promote the half-bred Bella as Tuareg ,because of their skin colour.

We both know that.

Again stop putting words in my mouth when your trying to discredit ALL darker looking Tuaregs as slaves. And I already told you a million times that most Tuaregs look like this!

You told me WRONG.

This is what PURE Tuareg look like:










None of the Above are Middle-Eastern OK?

Stop spreading lies to further your black-centrism.

Are mixed with Middle Eastern/Europeans. Early historic text NEVER described the Tuaregs as that. If so give me a source that states such. I DARE you...No No...I DOUBLE DARE you.

I DARE YOU. I DOUBLE DARE YOU to show me proof that hose Tuareg are mixed with:

1)Europeans
2)Middle-Easterners


I DARE YOU.


I have provided you with enough proof to show that the black Tuaregs are mixed. especially the ones in Niger and Mali and Azawad.

Again your ridiculous claims about all dark skinned Tuaregs being result of slavery, you still have not counted my main arguments. Because...

1. Most Tuareg slaves were Songhay/Bella like you stated. Libyan DOES NOT have those two ethnic groups.

2. Libya has high amounts of dark skinned Libyans and yet no Songhay/Bella people are native to Libya.

3. Ancient Libya is where the Ancient Berbers lived in the first place and here is how the Ancient Egyptians depicted them...

DUDE stop trying to dodge my point!

I told you that slaves, like commodities are transported across trade routes, wherever the Tuareg went..!

cant you use this simple common sense.

Libya has light-brown skinned Tuareg as well.

Im talking about Tuareg not any other Berbers. and stop bringing Egyptians into it.

[img]http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/dakhla_balat_ain_asil/Pb112404.jpg[/img]

[img]http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/bahariyah_bawiti/Pb092216.jpg[/img]

[img]http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/bahariyah_bawiti/Pb092220.jpg[/img]

[img]http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/bahariyah_bawiti/Pb092235.jpg[/img]

So again where is your evidence that all black Tuaregs are slave descendants?

Dude stop posting these dumbarse Egyptian cave paintings. COme to the point.

We are discussing Tuareg here. Todays Touareg.

and what evidence? Go research yourself. I have already provided.

What are the Bella?

What are the Iklan?

Arent these Tuareg caste of slaves?


Dont the Tuaregs stilll hold slaves?



You have all the resource to research all these pre-historic stuff, yet you can research about Bouzou and Tuareg social structure. how biased are you?

A person who was part Tuareg was the one who told me and that they were most likely descendants of the Garamantes.

bullsh!t. you just made that up.

stop lieing.


Btw This Garamaente thing is not there in Tuareg oral traditions.


please dont use such methods on me. be straight with me.

This is most the most ridiculous thing you've said. Your using modern day Tuaregs to say the Garamentes were not black(when some themselves were be labeled black). The Greeks knew what they saw.

I dont believe it. ANyways this is my theory.

I already explained my opinion on the Greeks.

It is physical reality that matters. not some vague words becing projected around by afro-centrists.

Prove that is not accurate. When many historians come to that conclusion. Its your opinion against all of theirs. And it wasn't just Herodotus, but other classical writers. But not only that you still can't write away the Tuaregs still using the Garamentes script.

Cmon dont try to scare me with that. What historians? THey just said it is a belief.

Which other classical writer said so?

Cmon tell me.


My proof is todays Tuareg.

I thought you said before that you were 'brown skinned'...

yes I am brown skinned.

"dark brown".

Where is proof of this? I know there is slavery still in Mali, but its small scale that its not even noticeable.

Lmfao. Niger has high rate of slavery. anyways it was more 30 years back. go google/research it. They released many slaves.



Why don't YOU give me sources. Also like I said Snnghays and Bella's are not even native to Libya, where there is a high percentage of darker skinned Tuaregs. But here is when it gets worse from you.

You say Tuaregs enslaved Songhay/Bella people(which I doubt). Well in Mali...Those are where those groups reside. Yet Tuaregs males in Mali have around 81.1% Berber E-M81(which has ancestry in East Africa).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_North_Africa

And most Mali Tuareg males look like this:



So you can't write those Mali Tuaregs off as slaves. Since they carry high frequencies of BERBER marker E-M81.

WHy do you doubt the enslavement of Songhay by the Tuareg?

What is there to doubt in that?

because they are dark skinned? so what?

This shows you are clearly BIASED .

And btw stop dividing all Tuareg by country. Tuareg dont recognize any borders.

Research material depends on the TUareg clan and band on whom it was conducted.


You are doing some really foolish things by posting 1 pic and claiming all Mali Tuareg look like that.

Most of the militia in Ansar Dine and MNLA and the top brass, are all light-brown sand-skinned.

Im talking about the region of Azawad.

It depends on the group of Tuareg.

Yet they carry high frequencies of BERBER E-M81! Even those from Burkina Faso at 77%!!!! :O :O :O

The only ones that don't are those from Niger who only carry 11% of it and they look like this!!!! :O :O :O

My Gods! There is clearly so much bias in your posts!

Was the research carried out on this specific woman you posted?

CMON stop lieing.


this is also a Niger Tuareg:

[img]http://64.78.29.176/images/uploads/ifam_davidmoore46.jpg[/img]

There goes your all black skinned Tuaregs being descendants of slave down the drain. Also Niger Tuaregs carry high frequencies of Non Afircan Eurasian R.

Where does it go down the drain?

I just showed you the proof above. I also showed proof of how biased you are .

Wheres the proof of your last claim?

Already did...Read my other posts. This is getting tiring...

No its not. admit it. you are being biased.

whats your ultimate goal?

I know you are a black-centrist.

Where the heck did you get this outdated garbage?? First off any sane person that wants to keep his/her job as a anthrologist or historians knows that there is no such thing as a Mediterranean race and that is nothing more than just psuedo-science, but its no coincedence since your source is from the 60's.

so my source does not agree with your views. therefore it is outdated and trash.

whereas you quote some random comment made 2000 years ago by a traveller and that is gospel truth.

YOU ARE BIASED.

Here is a more UP TO DATE view.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/05/gaddafi-sahara-lost-civilisation-garamantes

The late Muammar Gaddafi was fond of insisting on the links between his republic and sub-Saharan Africa. He was less interested, however, in celebrating the black African civilisation that flourished for more than 1,500 years within what are now Libya's borders, and that was barely acknowledged in the Gaddafi-era curriculum.

Now, however, researchers into the Garamantes – a "lost" Saharan civilisation that flourished long before the Islamic era – are hoping that Libya's new government can restore the warrior culture, mentioned by Herodotus in his Histories, to its rightful place in Libya's history.

And


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5bkNlGg0H0

Ive noticed that you dont use logic. you just keep posting links about anything that agrees with your views.

How can you accept the words written by a newspaper editor as proof worthy of research material?

i mean wth? His article is obiviously derived from Herodotus reference of Ethiopians.

The newspaper editor is not some authority on anthropology or history.

Garamante/Nubia skull sugery:

http://io9.com/5905871/the-lost-civilizations-that-pioneered-skull-surgery

Dude seriously stop posting some random links.

Trepanation was practiced all over the world, including Europe, Greece, India, South America, etc.

Does that mean they are relaed to the Garamentes.

They all ate food as well. DOes that mean they are related?

KidStranglehold:

*sigh*

Conclusion

To sum up, Nubia is Egypt’s African ancestor. What linked Ancient Egypt to the rest of the North African cultures is this strong tie with the Nubian pastoral nomadic lifestyle, the same pastoral background commonly shared by most of the ancient Saharan and modern sub-Saharan societies. Thus, not only did Nubia have a prominent role in the origin of Ancient Egypt, it was also a key area for the origin of the entire African pastoral tradition.

http://www.academia.edu/545582/The_Nubian_Pastoral_Culture_as_Link_between_Egypt_and_Africa_A_View_from_the_Archaeological_Record

Sorry I do not believe Nubia started the pastoral tradition for the entire Africa. The Bantus and Zulus and other SOuthern groups were already into pastorialism and hae nothing to do with the Nubians.

Anyways you are diverting. We were talking about the pastoral tradition after the fall of the Egyptian civilization. not during its rise.

The findings challenge a view dating back to Roman accounts that the Garamantes consisted of barbaric nomads and troublemakers on the edge of the Roman Empire.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111107121448.htm

And you keep forgetting that NOT ALL TUAREGS were nomads in earlier times. Many actually settled in Timbuktu and became prosfessors and scholars. Those same Tuaregs are still there!!!

That link shows portrays the Garamantes as a settled and highly civilize people. so why are you contradicting yourself. are you trying to prove how unreliable these first person Roman accounts are

Ridiclous...Just ridiclous...

1. They were a BERBER PEOPLE REPEAT BERBER PEOPLE. They spoke a Berber language. Heck the Tuaregs STILL carry the ancient Garamante script...Also Libya was where many Berber ancient kingdoms bagan. But more inportantly...



So there you have it they were BERBERS!

Whats wrong with you? I said i had 2 lines of views. and I specified I was more inclined towards one.

2. Africans range in colors. Tuaregs as a whole are a colorful people. Anyways like I said Africans have wide range of skin color.

"Regional differences in local within-population [skin color]

diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the

sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation. For both

measures, the average level of within-population diversity is

higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions.

This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation

between within-population diversity and distance from the equator.

Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the

same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits."-- Relethford JH.(2000). Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations. Hum Biol. 72(5):773-80.)

but you are clearly trying to pose the black race as the purer and more likely race in the Tuareg case.

It seems you are biased.

And dude Ethiopian also included Indians who were called Eastern Ethiopians. Anyone of a brown to burnt skin tone like with most Africans. The Greeks clearly knew this.

EXACTLY!

THis was what I have been telling for ages.

Indians range from light brown to dark brown, depending on their caste/tribe or within caste diversity.

So this shows how unreliable these Greek Accounts are since they label any hue as Ethiopian without differentiation.

And you were claiming that Ethiopian meant specifically BLACK .

Stop contradicting yourself!

No they didn't...They were hunter gatherers.

which entailed a life of nomadism.

Nomadism does not mean cattle herding. To be a nomad is to display mobility.

Actually yes I did. You're jus being in denial. Again where are your sources. Most historians agree with me and most of my claims were backed up.

Im not in denial. Many of your sources were not proper research material!

Sources for what? Whatever ive claimed is available online. you can find hem easily.

Yeah...And which all Tuaregs do not have monolithic oirigins.

True . the slave-descent Tuareg are not even proper Tuareg.

3. Your source states that Tuaregs of 'Sub Sahara' have more West African Y-DNA. Yet a simple click on your source and looking at the chart tell us this:

Tuaregs from Libya(North Africa):

Berber E-M81:

48.9%

West African E1b1a:

42.5%

Tuaregs from Mali(West Africa):

Berber E-M81:

81.8%

West African E1b1a:

9.1%

Tuaregs from Burkina Faso(West Africa)

Berber E-M81:

77.8%

West African E1b1a:

16.7%

Tuaregs from Niger(West Africa):

Berber E-M81:

11.1%

West African E1b1a:

44.4%

Non African Rb1:

33.3%

Your own source refutes itself. This is the reason I try best not to use Wikipedia. Your source states that Tuaregs in 'Sub Sahara Africa' show more kinship with West Africans. Yet Burkina Faso which is deep in West Africa have Tuaregs that have more Berber E-M81 than Tuaregs from North African country like Libyan. And for you not to decredit Libyan Berbers...Algerian Berbers show even LESS BERBER E-M81 than Libyan Berbers...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_North_Africa



And have high freqencies of Middle Eastern J...The only reason why Algerian Tuaregs cluster with Berbers and 'Arabs' because they absorbed a lot of admixture from them, especually from Algeria. Not because Algerians Tuaregs are the orginal Tuaregs...Again Algerian Berbers carry little frequncies of signature Berber marker E-M81. Again this is why I try to resist using Wikipedia.

I have already told you before that Tuareg are not restrained by national boundaries. This research is a very futile effort. The Tuareg keep migrating. it depends on the group on which the research is conducted.

Why are you shooting yourself in the foot.

just a while ago you were claiming Libyan Tuareg are the purest in terms of being BErber and now you show that they have 50% Sub Saharan dna which proves their slave descent.

Oh and as for the Kabyles who you made sure to highlight. Early historic sources indicate them looking no different from other Africans:

890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.

Great so now Kabyles are also Blacks. What a load of bs.

This is why i posted about the Kabyles on purpose. to see whether you would claim them as blacks as well. (which you inevitably did)

dont show me these colonial drawings. show me real pictures.


These are todays Kabyles:

[img]http://b.imdoc.fr/1/divers/tenues-kabyles-traditionnelles/photo/9158525915/20317113ed7/tenues-kabyles-traditionnelles-kabyle-fille-hameaux-img.jpg[/img]





[img]http://lestizis.free.fr/Kabylie-1900/Villages-Kabyles-1900/slides/Village-Kabyle-17.jpg[/img]


Now you will also inevitably say that these are mixed with Europeans. *smh


however if europeans mixed with "black" Kabyles, wont the dominant black alele prevail. these people dont have a trace of brown in them, forget black.

Or else you will give me some conspiracy theory that europeans came in, extermnated all the BErbers ad are now staying in their place and wearing their clothes.

Im waiting. .

Also sorry PAGAN, but it gets worse for you. Like I said Tuaregs are NOT one monolithic people and as result of this many Tuareg groups have many origin myths.

Tuareg relate their origins as the following:

Tuareg origin myths relate the Tuareg to Lemtuna, the ancestress of the Berbers who lived around Ghadames in Tripolitania (Nicolaisen 1963: p. 405). Another myth relates the Tuareg to the legendary Queen Tin Hinan who came to Abalessa in the Ahaggar region from Tafilelt in Morocco (p. 69). According to Prasse, these legends suggest the Tuareg of southern Algeria came from Libya and Morocco, and the Kel Ayr and Kel Geres have Libyan origins. Tuareg from Mali claim to have come from Morocco or Mauritania[b] (p. 71). Tuareg society has always been [b]characterized by rivalry between groups, and in time different groups have enjoyed supremacy over others (p. 72). When the French arrived in the Hoggar they were met with great resistance and peace was reached in 1917. It lasted until independence in 1960. The French let the Tuareg continue their nomadic lifestyles; however, they saw to it that no concentration of power emerged (p. 80). Although the French did think of setting up an independent Tuareg state, the idea never materialized (p. 80)

You dont need to be sorry. They still have the same culture and are ethnically similar. The origin myths probably refer to the origin of the different clans withing them.

(except the Bella and other mixed groups)
This further proves that Tuareg as an ethnic group existed way before.

PAGAN 9JA:


Sorry I do not believe Nubia started the pastoral tradition for the entire Africa. The Bantus and Zulus and other SOuthern groups were already into pastorialism and hae nothing to do with the Nubians.

Anyways you are diverting. We were talking about the pastoral tradition after the fall of the Egyptian civilization. not during its rise.






That link shows portrays the Garamantes as a settled and highly civilize people. so why are you contradicting yourself. are you trying to prove how unreliable these first person Roman accounts are








Whats wrong with you? I said i had 2 lines of views. and I specified I was more inclined towards one.







but you are clearly trying to pose the black race as the purer and more likely race in the Tuareg case.

It seems you are biased.








EXACTLY!

THis was what I have been telling for ages.

Indians range from light brown to dark brown, depending on their caste/tribe or within caste diversity.

So this shows how unreliable these Greek Accounts are since they label any hue as Ethiopian without differentiation.

And you were claiming that Ethiopian meant specifically BLACK .

Stop contradicting yourself!



which entailed a life of nomadism.

Nomadism does not mean cattle herding. To be a nomad is to display mobility.




Im not in denial. Many of your sources were not proper research material!

Sources for what? Whatever ive claimed is available online. you can find hem easily.





True . the slave-descent Tuareg are not even proper Tuareg.





I have already told you before that Tuareg are not restrained by national boundaries. This research is a very futile effort. The Tuareg keep migrating. it depends on the group on which the research is conducted.

Why are you shooting yourself in the foot.

just a while ago you were claiming Libyan Tuareg are the purest in terms of being BErber and now you show that they have 50% Sub Saharan dna which proves their slave descent.





Great so now Kabyles are also Blacks. What a load of bs.

This is why i posted about the Kabyles on purpose. to see whether you would claim them as blacks as well. (which you inevitably did)

dont show me these colonial drawings. show me real pictures.


These are todays Kabyles:

[img]http://b.imdoc.fr/1/divers/tenues-kabyles-traditionnelles/photo/9158525915/20317113ed7/tenues-kabyles-traditionnelles-kabyle-fille-hameaux-img.jpg[/img]





[img]http://lestizis.free.fr/Kabylie-1900/Villages-Kabyles-1900/slides/Village-Kabyle-17.jpg[/img]


Now you will also inevitably say that these are mixed with Europeans. *smh


however if europeans mixed with "black" Kabyles, wont the dominant black alele prevail. these people dont have a trace of brown in them, forget black.

Or else you will give me some conspiracy theory that europeans came in, extermnated all the BErbers ad are now staying in their place and wearing their clothes.

Im waiting. .






You dont need to be sorry. They still have the same culture and are ethnically similar. The origin myths probably refer to the origin of the different clans withing them.

(except the Bella and other mixed groups)
This further proves that Tuareg as an ethnic group existed way before.

Sorry my dear fiend, like i said get Jibo Baje's CD. The Touaregs were never victorious over the Songhai. That CD highlights the battles between Songhai vs Fulani, and Songhai vs Tuareg. I hate to admit it, but Songhai defeated both the Fulani and Tuaregs. Therefore, I highly doubt that they enslaved the Songhai.

I think I need to update that video. Kidstranglehold is not being a black supremacist at all, what he says holds a lot of truth.

Fulaman198:

Sorry my dear fiend, like i said get Jibo Baje's CD. The Touaregs were never victorious over the Songhai. That CD highlights the battles between Songhai vs Fulani, and Songhai vs Tuareg. I hate to admit it, but Songhai defeated both the Fulani and Tuaregs. Therefore, I highly doubt that they enslaved the Songhai.

I think I need to update that video. Kidstranglehold is not being a black supremacist at all, what he says holds a lot of truth.

lol...PAGAN9 clearly has a agenda. Its funny how he ignored this which debunks all his claims.


He barely even knows the argument at hand and IGNORES all PEER REVIWED sources posted, yet claims they are just random. Yet he has not posted any backing up his claims.