KunleOshob:

Please read my last previous post on this topic with regards to the obsolete laws of the old testament and what apostle paul had to say about them and our christian lives, if you have any questions after that i would be glad to answer 

When were the laws of the OT made obsolete? Here is Jesus making a point to the contrary, Matthew 5: 17-

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The laws of moses was strictly for the isarealites and it was never introduced to christianity which started after the death of christ. jesus was talking to the Jews in this passage and the jews were meant to live by the laws of moses. Subsequent scriptures in Romans and galatians make it clear that after the death of Christ the laws had become fufilled.

@Kunle,

Kunle, oh Kunle,
The faith that you have, keep it between yourself and God (Rom. 14:22) Since you are strong in faith, pls do not destroy the one that is weak in faith. "As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not quarrel over opinions" (Rom.14:1). Let no one who eats despise the one who absstains, and let no one who abstains passes judgment on the one who eats (Rom.14:3).

Dont twist the scriptures to cause the weak in faith to stumble so as not to destroy the work of Christ.

If you make yourself a hindrance or stumbling block in the way of a brother/sister and thereby destroy the one Christ has died for, you may just be fighting a fight that you may not be able to stand alive bcoz this means the death of Christ for anyone you may be misleading here will be for vain and Christ doesn't joke with such.

Be warned.

Benedicta,thats the truth,there is no point beating about the bush.

Chei!!! These guys hate pastors so much ooo,but relax i dont think pastors compel anybody to give in whatever name,even Jesus never complained about where d widow's mite was going,he was interested in d giving heart,it is not for u to know what pastors do with offerings afterall they are levites. Does this scripture Gal6:6,10 have any meaning to u mr kunle? It talks about conducts towards men of God.

benedictac:

@Kunle,
Kunle, oh Kunle,
The faith that you have, keep it between yourself and God (Rom. 14:22) Since you are strong in faith, pls do not destroy the one that is weak in faith. "As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not quarrel over opinions" (Rom.14:1). Let no one who eats despise the one who absstains, and let no one who abstains passes judgment on the one who eats (Rom.14:3).
Dont twist the scriptures to cause the weak in faith to stumble so as not to destroy the work of Christ.
If you make yourself a hindrance or stumbling block in the way of a brother/sister and thereby destroy the one Christ has died for, you may just be fighting a fight that you may not be able to stand alive bcoz this means the death of Christ for anyone you may be misleading here will be for vain and Christ doesn't joke with such.
Be warned.

My dear as a true christian if i see my brethen being led astray and taken advantage of, it is my chrisitan duty to correct such a person irrespective of if it is a pastor that is misleading the person. All i have said has very sound basis in christian scripture. unlike the arguments for first fruits which is a manipulated application of directives to jews (non christians) to give a part of their farm produce to the levites. Please note no matter what any pastor tells you levites don't exist today and nobody is representing them. There is no such thing as levite in christianity, levites belong to the jewish religion and there is no new testament evidence that christianity adopted their preisthood it was infact done away with. Also any pastor that claims he is a levite should also give up his right to own property of any sorts as the levites in the bible were not allowed to own property

Christian giving as directed by christ and the apostles is purely about giving to the poor and needy around us and not enriching some so called men of God. So as christians we should give but the emphasis should be on the poor and not the church. even church offerings is meant to be distributed to the needy but your pastors won't tell you that.

I said it.I said it.I said someone would soon tell me that I'm wrong and that I am lying
Givers never lack,lackers never give.

@ benedictac

I agree with you, let each person do as he is convinced in his heart, not trying to guilt others into doing it.

Firstfruits, or whatever name you choose to call it is an institution in the old testament. We have NO reference in the new testament church of this being carried out. Paul and others also had the old testament and were Christians. If it is as important as you say, why was it never mentioned? Even the contentious tithe was at least mentioned by Jesus and Paul (albeit without tithes being the primary focus). If you choose to pick up something from the OT, or God inspires YOU to pick up something, do not enforce it on others.

Let each act according to his belief. Do not tear each other up because of that.

KunleOshob:

The laws of moses was strictly for the isarealites and it was never introduced to christianity which started after the death of christ. jesus was talking to the Jews in this passage and the jews were meant to live by the laws of moses. Subsequent scriptures in Romans and galatians make it clear that after the death of Christ the laws had become fufilled.

When Jesus was preaching, was he teaching solely to "Christians" as opposed to the Israelites?   Was there a hard and fast dividing line between the Jews who followed the law and the Jews who followed Jesus's teachings?

From which population of people would Jesus have drawn most os his followers?   Which laws would they have been observing before the meet with Jesus's teachings?


For the sake of argument,  if the laws of Moses were meant of the Jews,  this implies that the 10 Commandments were also meant for the Jews and never for Christians.  Is that correct?

KunleOshob:

Christian giving as directed by christ and the apostles is purely about giving to the poor and needy around us and not enriching some so called men of God. So as christians we should give but the emphasis should be on the poor and not the church. even church offerings is meant to be distributed to the needy but your pastors won't tell you that.

Brother Kunle, please that is so not true. Even the very popular Philipians 4:19 shows that is not true, except you are calling Paul "poor and needy".

Now you Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only. 16 For even in Thessalonica you sent once and again to my necessity. 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. 18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God. 19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus

Please see statements in bold, the Phillipian church sent once and again, in order words they sent 2 gift offetorys to Paul, not because he desired a gift, but that the fruit may abound to their accounts. See verse 18, Paul stated the gifts sent as "an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God".

Clearly your statement is unscriptural, i dont understand what you mean by emphasis to the poor and needy, pls elaborate.

But away4real you missed the key point - Now you Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only. 16 For even in Thessalonica you sent once and again to my necessity. 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. 18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God. 19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus

the men of Philipi were sending Paul gifts NOT BECAUSE HE SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED IT OR ENCOURAGED THEM TO but because they desired to give to him as a labour of their love and appreciation. Phil 4:17-18 is simply Paul saying thank you and letting them know that there is a reward for giving to those who minister the gospel.

Now compare that to modern day christianity - giving is now solely almost by force. It is no longer a voluntary sacrifice, it is now mandatory that you PAY tithe so the pastor can live large. Paul says - "But I have all, and abound: I am full", how many of your pastors come to the stage and say - "i have 2 mansions, a private jet and 10 luxury cars . . . i am full"?

davidylan:

But away4real you missed the key point - Now you Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only. 16 For even in Thessalonica you sent once and again to my necessity. 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. 18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God. 19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus

the men of Philipi were sending Paul gifts NOT BECAUSE HE SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED IT OR ENCOURAGED THEM TO but because they desired to give to him as a labour of their love and appreciation. Phil 4:17-18 is simply Paul saying thank you and letting them know that there is a reward for giving to those who minister the gospel.

Now compare that to modern day christianity - giving is now solely almost by force. It is no longer a voluntary sacrifice, it is now mandatory that you PAY tithe so the pastor can live large. Paul says - "But I have all, and abound: I am full", how many of your pastors come to the stage and say - "i have 2 mansions, a private jet and 10 luxury cars . . . i am full"?

@ David, lets take a step at a time, lets be slow to speak. What i stated clearly is that the poor and needy alone giving is not scriptural and not comparing to modern day christainity. By all means we are to give to the poor and needy but thats not the only giving.  Please note i didnt say Paul requested it and for clarification, In my opinion the key point as you have noted is that there is a reward,"an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God" pleasing to God. So if i give to a minister of the Gospel there is a reward. Geez for me i stop there, the investigation thingy i will leave to David.

But looking at it closely Paul said "but I desire fruit that may abound to your account", this tells us that Paul wanted them to give, he desired "fruits that may abound to their accounts" ie he desired them to give so they get blessed not because he needed it.

Now to what you mean by modern day christainity is really subjective except you are an ancient christain , lol, just kidding but i wasnt going into that i just wanted to correct that unscriptural doctrine.

@ poster, i am really shocked at us christains atimes, my question is why are you in your church in the first place if you feel your Pastor is leading you astray in other words you feel he is greedy and after your money hence he has preached heresy, leave the church.

From what you have typed, i enjoin you by the mercies of God Please and Please keep your tithes, first fruit or whatever you want to give.

away4real:

But looking at it closely "but I desire fruit that may abound to your account", this tells us that Paul wanted them to give, he desired them to give so they get blessed not because he needed it.

I got the point you were passing across, i was only making a point so others dont carry Phil 4 and run away with the idea that Paul was asking for money and gifts. He wasnt.

A closer look at the portion i highlighted - i think what Paul was trying to say there was "i dont really need the gifts . . . i have all and abound, but i am happy you made this sacrifice because it is to your own spiritual benefit". No where else do we see Paul or any of the other apostles mandating the christians to give to them.

davidylan:

I got the point you were passing across, i was only making a point so others dont carry Phil 4 and run away with the idea that Paul was asking for money and gifts. He wasnt.

A closer look at the portion i highlighted - i think what Paul was trying to say there was "i dont really need the gifts . . . i have all and abound, but i am happy you made this sacrifice because it is to your own spiritual benefit". No where else do we see Paul or any of the other apostles mandating the christians to give to them.

As per your statement lets look at a few other versions:

Amplified
Not that I seek or am eager for [your] gift, but I do seek and am eager for the fruit which increases to your credit [the harvest of blessing that is accumulating to your account].

American Standard Version
17 Not that I seek for the gift; but I seek for the fruit that increaseth to your account


Paul was not trying to say "i dont really need the gifts . . . i have all and abound, but i am happy you made this sacrifice because it is to your own spiritual benefit.

He said according to the Amplified "but I do seek and am eager for the fruit which increases to your credit the harvest of blessing that is accumulating to your account". He was eager for the fruit which increases to their credit, he was eager for their fruit, he was eager for them to give because of the harvest of blessing.

He did not need their gifts that has been established, but he was eager for the them to get a harvest.

away4real:

As per your statement lets look at a few other versions:

Amplified
Not that I seek or am eager for [your] gift, but I do seek and am eager for the fruit which increases to your credit [the harvest of blessing that is accumulating to your account].

American Standard Version
17 Not that I seek for the gift; but I seek for the fruit that increaseth to your account


Paul was not trying to say "i dont really need the gifts . . . i have all and abound, but i am happy you made this sacrifice because it is to your own spiritual benefit.

He said according to the Amplified "but I do seek and am eager for the fruit which increases to your credit the harvest of blessing that is accumulating to your account". He was eager for the fruit which increases to their credit, he was eager for their fruit, he was eager for them to give because of the harvest of blessing.

He did not need their gifts that has been established, but he was eager for the them to get a harvest.

1. We have to note that "versions" are not necessarily accurate. For example RSVP removes the phrase "virgin" (in reference to the birth of Christ) and replaces it with the term "young woman". Both are not the same even though it may seem subtle.

2. When Paul says 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. . . i doubt he is saying "give me more so that you can have more harvest", he is simply saying such selfless sacrifice from them is not going to go unrewarded.

Can somebody help me explain this bible passage Gal 6v6-nkjv ''Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.''
amp-''Let him who receives instruction in the Word(of God) share all good things with his teacher(contributing to his support)'' Seems to me that apostle paul is encouraging giving towards teachers of d word some of whom are our pastors for their support. I may be wrong anyway

@ coolruler,
A xtian life is lived by Faith (to understand what faith means read Heb 11) You should not do anything that you don't beleive in (does not mix with faith in you) even if a supposed man of God told you. You lose your reward and also your relationship with God that way.
My friend I am sorry to tell you that your "first fruit" is awuf for the pastor as you did it without faith.

@timmy7
don't worry,kunleOshob will soon come to your rescue.He has this ability to twist such scriptures,watch out

timmy7:

Can somebody help me explain this bible passage Gal 6v6-nkjv ''Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.''
amp-''Let him who receives instruction in the Word(of God) share all good things with his teacher(contributing to his support)'' Seems to me that apostle paul is encouraging giving towards teachers of d word some of whom are our pastors for their support. I may be wrong anyway

Whats there to explain in something that is so obvious? It means exactly what it says, Share the good things you have with those who instruct you in the word these includes pastors, preachers, evangelists and whatever name they are called.
I find it so troubling why the hullabaloo about giving to men of God, at least he wont put his hand in your pcoket to collect ya money, if u like giveif you like no give, no bodi force you. chikena

mr crackles, how does your imams & mullahs get the money they use for supporting terrorists and the beloved palestinians?

@blinx4real,
I've not done it yet. I know about tithes and other contributions, but I do not know about firstfruit. Thats why I came to nairaland to ask.

Someone said earlier that you can pay the firstfruit in installments?(I was hoping to use this as an escape route). well, I asked and the Pastor said an emphatic No. The firstfruit should be paid at one go. Anything different means the individual is not following God's commandment to the letter. Such act, according to him, attracts no blessing as it is a wilful disobedience of God's commandment.

All well and good,but what the Pastor neglected to tell me was, how am I supposed to survive in Lagos if I plunk down all my salary eh?

Image123:

@timmy7
don't worry,kunleOshob will soon come to your rescue.He has this ability to twist such scriptures,watch out

For your information sir i have nothing against giving to support the teachers of the word. it is the greedy way some preachers manipulate their congregation thru twisting of the scripture that i detest. The un diluted truth must be told in the house of God.

@coolruler
Some more help full scriptures

2 Thessalonians 3:6-10:
6 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we give you this command in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ: Stay away from all believers who live idle lives and don’t follow the tradition they received from us. 7 For you know that you ought to imitate us. We were not idle when we were with you. 8[b] We never accepted food from anyone without paying for it. We worked hard day and night so we would not be a burden to any of you. [/b] 9 We certainly had the right to ask you to feed us, but we wanted to give you an example to follow. 10 Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: “Those unwilling to work will not get to eat.”

2 Peter 2:3:
3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

1 Timothy 6:5-6:
5 These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy.
6 Yet true godliness with contentment is itself great wealth.


James 1:27:
27 Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

Romans 16:17-18:
17 And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them. 18 Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people.

KunleOshob:

For your information sir i have nothing against giving to support the teachers of the word. it is the greedy way some preachers manipulate their congregation thru twisting of the scripture that i detest. The un diluted truth must be told in the house of God.

Maybe some preachers are a bit zealous but hey no one of us heard the sermon from coolruler's Pators, so it is unfair to conclude and tag him "some greedy preacher". There will be false teachers not called of God out there but unless we have first hand information we need to be careful the way we are quick to demonise Pastors, in my opinion that is so wrong and unscriptural we need to stop it.

And brother Kunle, the scriptures you quoted haS nothing to do with this situation, the pastor did not ask coolruler to give him money personally and as someone has noted which Pastor has asked anyone to give him money by force, let them state it. If not please let this nonsense stop.

I choose to believe that most Pastors are decent men, carrying out what God has called them to do, so please if you claim you are a christain and that christ died for you, please lets stop this nonsense.

We can discuss doctrines comparing scripture with scripture but let every man be fully persuaded in his spirit, he is God to us all. To him that chooses not to pay his Tithe in faith God bless you, to him that chooses by faith to pay his Tithe and give a First fruit offetory God bless you also. As long as it is done in Faith. I only wonder the faith needed not to pay thithe, hmm, thats a new one Faith not to pay thithe.

davidylan:

1. We have to note that "versions" are not necessarily accurate. For example RSVP removes the phrase "virgin" (in reference to the birth of Christ) and replaces it with the term "young woman". Both are not the same even though it may seem subtle.

2. When Paul says 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. . . i doubt he is saying "give me more so that you can have more harvest", he is simply saying such selfless sacrifice from them is not going to go unrewarded.

@ David, i dare say that you have interpreted this scripture according to your feeling, zeal and emotions.

We have looked at 4 versions, King James, New King James, Ampliefied and American Standard Version and you insinuate it is a translation problem, my brother it is NOT. Please get a concordance or any version show us just one that interprets it the way you have, then we will look at it.

Quoting an exception from the Revised Standard is so out of place, so please tell how did you know mary was a virgin is it from another version or not.

away4real:

To him that chooses not to pay his Tithe in faith God bless you, to him that chooses by faith to pay his Tithe and give a First fruit offetory God bless you also. As long as it is done in Faith. I only wonder the faith needed not to pay thithe, hmm, thats a new one Faith not to pay thithe.

You don't need to wonder; some of us have been walking in that 'faith' for some time now and its as glorious as you can imagine

@ SirJohn, God bless, thanks for clarifying , your "faith" has made you whole, lol, 

@kunleOshob
thank God,tht's an improvement.i feel your pain.But as you correct,please don't enter into error.take am easy

Image123:

@kunleOshob
thank God,tht's an improvement.i feel your pain.But as you correct,please don't enter into error.take am easy

The truth is that there is so much ignorance existing in the christian community today which is actively encouraged by the leaders they don't allow you to question any thing they tell you you just have to accept it whether it as sound biblical basis or not and this is very dangerous becos it leads to abuses and this is why several unscriptural things have found their way into the church and been instituitionalized over the centuries. You would be amazed how many things we hold as doctrine that you wouldn't find in scripture. Many christians eagerly await the rapture, do you know that the bible doesn't say anything about rapture and the word doesn't even exist in the bible? yet people hold it as gospel truth. (The concept of rapture emanted from a book written by a 19th century preacher.) just today i was reading the papers i came across a full page colour congratulatory message congratulating a demon (Rev king) for his birthday the message went on to shower praises, honour and glory to him as if he were god. This is the extent of brainwashing going on in our churches today. This is a man who murdered a church member in broad daylight and you still have people hero worshipping him three years down the line after he as been convicted for murder.

In my opinion christianity as it is being practised today needs to be totally overhauled, as far as i am concerned most people that profess christianity are not christlike deep down. Our churches don't even teach us or encourage true christianity and this is all due to greed and self desires of the church leadrship.

Kunle,
Wot do you mean there's nothing like rapture? Now I am very confused. Please explain yourself thank you.

coolruler:

Kunle,
Wot do you mean there's nothing like rapture? Now I am very confused. Please explain yourself thank you.

Maybe you should ask your pastor or those who preach rapture to show you were rapture is in the bible. here is what the bible says about what would happen to mankind, how does it compare with the rapture story?

Revelation 21:1-4:
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

3 I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.”