Cyclone5:

The good thing about being over pious and puritanical is that it often leads you down a dark alley to epiphany.

Well, you my pious brother, are wrong. That is not the scripture I was referring to. I would have been able to distinguish between rape and sleeping with someone's sister. But thanks for the instruction, you can go away and do some more research now.

So Mr Cyclone, can you please tell me the scripture you are referring to and quote the verses so I'll keep my over pious and puritanical mind in check?

#Candid Submission#

Cyclone5:

The good thing about being over pious and puritanical is that it often leads you down a dark alley to epiphany.

Well, you my pious brother, are wrong. That is not the scripture I was referring to. I would have been able to distinguish between rape and sleeping with someone's sister. But thanks for the instruction, you can go away and do some more research now.

So Mr Cyclone, since you are online now, can you please tell me the scripture you were referring to and quote the verses so I'll keep my pious and puritanical mind in check?

#Candid Submission#

Read up the 10 commandments too cos its there

I really appreciate this discussion becuase I am seeking for the truth on this topic.  I would actually like to talk to someone who believes it is ok to have sex without being married and find out how they can back that up. Is it ok to if a man's wife left him to go back to her parents in another country. She chooses to divorce him. He asks an unmarried woman to marry him. She feels cared for and she says yes and then they both have sex.  Is there any sexual sin in this situation? To complicat this situation the wife wants him back but he doesn't want her back. He has moved on and is now romancing an unmarried woman.

"everyone" does it. but its fornication, sweetie. come out of your denial.

katekohut:

I really appreciate this discussion becuase I am seeking for the truth on this topic. I would actually like to talk to someone who believes it is ok to have sex without being married and find out how they can back that up. Is it ok to if a man's wife left him to go back to her parents in another country. She chooses to divorce him. He asks an unmarried woman to marry him. She feels cared for and she says yes and then they both have sex. Is there any sexual sin in this situation? To complicat this situation the wife wants him back but he doesn't want her back. He has moved on and is now romancing an unmarried woman.

If you're asking permission or justification for adultery or fornication as opined by me on this thread, you won't find it for the case you described above. It sounds like an adulterous relationship to me, and therefore according to the word of God is sin.

lol

"I'm afraid for people who say "this is wrong, period" and have nothing to back it up. Simply because that's the way it was sold to them."

So am I, but this is what alot of religous people do, Sometimes I might ask my friend something and her answer will be, "Because my God said so." Because she cant think of an appropriate answer. It is a cop out.

Premarital Sex Is FORNication,

Yu rite.

Strong’s Lexicon Definition of Fornication

In Hebrew

2181 zanah zaw-naw' ….: to commit adultery (usually of the female, rarely of[b] involuntary ravishment(rape))[/b]
figuratively, to commit[b] idolatry[/b] (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Jehovah)
(cause to) commit fornication (be an, play the) harlot (cause to be, play the) LovePeddler, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-whoring, whorish.
________________________________________
2183 zanuwn zaw-noon' from 2181; adultery; figuratively, idolatry:--whoredom.
________________________________________
2185 zonowth zo-noth' regarded by some as if from 2109 or an unused root, and applied to military equipments; but evidently the feminine plural active participle of 2181; harlots:--armour.
________________________________________
8457 taznuwth taz-nooth' or taznuth {taz-nooth'}; from 2181; harlotry, i.e. (figuratively) idolatry:--fornication, whoredom.



In Greek

1608. ekporneuo ek-porn-yoo'-o :--give self over to fornication.
________________________________________
4202. porneia por-ni'-ah from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry:--fornication.
________________________________________
4203. porneuo porn-yoo'-o from 4204; to act the harlot, i.e. (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practise idolatry:--commit (fornication

The phrase "pre-marital sex" is one that was created by man to describe sex outside of marriage.


Pre-marital sex (sex before marriage) may be fornication if the sex is ILLICIT, PERVERSE, or UNNATURAL example idolatry, homosexuality/lesbianism, harlotry, whoredom (promiscuity) etc. See above

However, post-marital/matrimonial sex (sex after marriage) can also be fornication and adultery with the same definintion of fornication in each case.

There is no evidence that pre-marital sex with one partner, by consenting male and female, in a committed monogamous relationship, over an extended period of time, is fornication. It is not illicit, it is not illegal, it is not immoral.

The more we learn what fornication truly is, the more we learn that "normal" pre marital sex is not fornication.

Please, this by no means is a free card for having sex. In my opinion sex still remains an enjoyable activity between two consenting, responsible ADULTS, in a long term relationship

Hi TG, Long time. How now? You've been keeping a low profile huh? Busy??

trini_girl:

The phrase "pre-marital sex" is one that was created by man to describe sex outside of marriage.

I stand to be corrected, but I thought the suffix "Pre" meant "before". Pre-marital sex then being sex before marriage.

Sex by either of the partners in a marriage is called "Extra-marital". I think bopth meanings of "extra apply here !

So "Post-marital" sex is legit. Pre-marital is not, neither is extra-marital.

There is no evidence that pre-marital sex with one partner, by consenting male and female, in a committed monogamous relationship, over an extended period of time, is fornication.  It is not illicit, it is not illegal, it is not immoral.

You opened this statement with a blatant lie. The Bible is as clear as glass on this point. There is no divinely sanctioned relationship that permits sexual intimacy except the wedded union. Unless of course you can show biblical evidence for that.

The only way such a relationship could even be considered legitimate, was if by the very act of sex they considered themselves to married. Even this breaks down, as if that were this case, the word would be "covenanted" and not "committed".

Let me ask you this; How binding is the committment mentioned? Is it till death do part or until the attraction fades? Disagreements set in? Or something better comes along. If while either party is still alive, can either of them commit to another?

If either of the parties in the relationship above died or the Lord where to return, what would the status of the couple be?

The more we learn what fornication truly is, the more we learn that "normal" pre marital sex is not fornication.

It sounds like a classic case of "learning without ever coming to the knowledge of the truth".

Re-ngineer or re-define the meanings of the words all you will. (as some would prefer to call sin a lapse, error, area for improvement or personal failing). The biblical imperative remains inviolable. Sex before, without, or outside marriage is a sin.

Please, this by no means is a free card for having sex.

That's exactly what it is, except you have discriminated against those who would induulge in sex of the homosexual variety (and other beastly variations)!

In my opinion sex still remains an enjoyable activity between two consenting, responsible ADULTS, in a long term relationship

You have every right to an opinion, and if you qualify this as just that, without attempting to claim biblical warrant for it, no probs. As to the "enjoyability of sex", you are right,  but it is also enjoyable to many whose relationships have no scriptural sanction, and by many who don't have relationships in any real sense of the word. So your point here is?

Trini, you can't make this thing stick. The Bible is complete and whole in this matter. Semantics, wordplay and obsfucation can never replace or equate to the revealed inspired Word of God.

God bless

Too long.

TV01:

Hi TG, Long time. How now? You've been keeping a low profile huh? Busy??

TV! I'm fine. I've been observing from the sidelines. Nothing too interesting going on these days.  But haven't you noticed me trying to get your attention? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-44339.32.html

TV01:

I stand to be corrected, but I thought the suffix "Pre" meant "before". Pre-marital sex then being sex before marriage.

Sex by either of the partners in a marriage is called "Extra-marital". I think bopth meanings of "extra apply here !

So "Post-marital" sex is legit. Pre-marital is not, neither is extra-marital.

Let me correct you then. your reasoning is flawed! You can set yourself straight by sticking to the definition of FORNICATION and not the lose definition of sex pre and post marriage since fornication can occur either before marriage (pre-marital) or within (post matrimonial) marriage. Remember, fornication is unnatural sex, example with prostitues, homosexuality, beastiality, incest etc.

TV01:

You opened this statement with a blatant lie. The Bible is as clear as glass on this point. There is no divinely sanctioned relationship that permits sexual intimacy except the wedded union. Unless of course you can show biblical evidence for that.

and exactly which statement do you misinterpret as a lie?  show me YOUR relevent appropriate biblical evidence where the bible is clear that sexual intimacy between man and woman should only occur inside "wedded union" and then we'll give it a go.

TV01:

The only way such a relationship could even be considered legitimate, was if by the very act of sex they considered themselves to married. Even this breaks down, as if that were this case, the word would be "covenanted" and not "committed".

Legitimate in whose eyes, yours?  So if you have sex with someone, you're automatically married to them? Scriputre please, thank youuuu.

I'm quite sure you argued that someone argued this can only happen with the exchange of vows. 

TV01:

Let me ask you this; How binding is the committment mentioned? Is it till death do part or until the attraction fades? Disagreements set in? Or something better comes along. If while either party is still alive, can either of them commit to another?

If either of the parties in the relationship above died or the Lord where to return, what would the status of the couple be?

It sounds like a classic case of "learning without ever coming to the knowledge of the truth".

You've asked me this question before.  If the only intent of marriage is being bound then we see marriage quite differently.  Sex is only a part of a committed relationship.  a wedding is just an open declaration of a decision already made by both parties.  Even common law relationships are 'binding' in the eyes of the law, and in the eyes of God.

Did Adam and Eve 'exchange vows'? Nowadays, we would called that a common law arrangement and frown upon it. 

Admit it, fornication as religion has defined it, is flawed.

I am not re-engineering anything.  I'm surprised you made no mention of the actual root meaning of fornication, but instead, as you have before, chose to expatiate on your emotional opinion on the issue. I expect better from you. 

I'm not trying to convince anyone to change to my view.  In fact, as i said before, I'm open to change my view once shown RELEVENT scripture discrediting my findings.

Bless!

Why wld someone think Pre Marital sex is not fornication?

9ja4eva:

Why would someone think Pre Marital sex is not fornication?

I guess because some people, unlike 'others', have the cranial capacity to think, and formulate conclusions for themselves, and not believe things just because the pastor said so.

trini_girl:

TV! I'm fine. I've been observing from the sidelines. Nothing too interesting going on these days.  But haven't you noticed me trying to get your attention? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-44339.32.html

Good to hear you are well.

Yes 0! Things are one kin' these days. Hopefully it's just the ebb & flow of this kind of forum.

I went there 0! Given the title/theme of the thread I thought I'd give it a miss. I did read up until a few people were called out and still wasn't motivated. I've since gone back and read the whole thing. Still not really interested.

About the deviation. First, thanks for gettin'my back, much appreciated. Second I noticed the similarity between Syrup and Shahan, but concluded it was just that, a marked similarity. In fact, gender apart, I think Syrup is probably even motre akin to Bari_Kade in style and approach. That's not to comment on individual premises, positions or my personal opinion.

Now back to the topic  .

Let me correct you then. your reasoning is flawed!

We'll see!

You can set yourself straight by sticking to the definition of FORNICATION and not the lose definition of sex pre and post marriage since fornication can occur either before marriage (pre-marital) or within (post matrimonial) marriage. Remember, fornication is unnatural sex, example with prostitues, homosexuality, beastiality, incest etc.

Not as flawed as your premise girl. Fornication is illicit sex. This would include, but not be limited to the unnatural kind.

and exactly which statement do you misinterpret as a lie?  show me YOUR relevent appropriate biblical evidence where the bible is clear that sexual intimacy between man and woman should only occur inside "wedded union" and then we'll give it a go.

As I asked before, please detail scripture showing that sexual intimacy can be legitimately (in a biblical sense of course) enjoyed outside holy matrimony.

You wrote;

You've asked me this question before.  If the only intent of marriage is being bound then we see marriage quite differently.  Sex is only a part of a committed relationship.  a wedding is just an open declaration of a decision already made by both parties.  Even common law relationships are 'binding' in the eyes of the law, and in the eyes of God.

Then;

Legitimate in whose eyes, yours?  So if you have sex with someone, you're automatically married to them? Scriputre please, thank youuuu.

And then;

Did Adam and Eve 'exchange vows'? Nowadays, we would called that a common law arrangement and frown upon it.

Please make the connection. In the sight of God, the intimacy signalled marriage. Likewise with Isaac and his wife.

When you say "we", you mean the world not Christianity. There is no such scripturally defined relationship as "common-law" marriage. To suggest that God see's CLM as the world (law) is simply wrong.

You can have a committed relationship without sex. Indeed, many marriages exist (no, I don't know how ) without it. And I'd imagine all of any duration will do so at some stage (at least for a time).

What exactly is the wedding declaring if intimacy can be legally established outside it?

I see the error of trying to "divorce" sex from marriage. Can't be done. It's a ploy atheists and humanists love to adopt. To ruinous effect too.

Back off topic;

I noticed your labelling me as your 1st choice MOG. I'm flattered, must be said. But after long, prayerful and thoughtful reflection (a whole nano second  ), I have to say no. That's not a reflection on you TG, it's me .

If I say yes, I'll have to demand you submit to "my authority" (thorougly unbiblical), always qualify your posts on NL with "MyPas" (My Pastor says), and generally check your God given faculties whenever I speak. We'd have to gather followers (as numbers seem to be one way of legitimising MOGGERY) and start our own shursh (My Church), As if there is more than one? Of course in due time I'd delegate some small anointing/responsibility to you (My Ministry).

Of course, I'll have to finance this title and the empire that goes with it, so I might have to join the tithing and enforced offering brigade (not biblical). I'd like a plush office, necessitating a building fund so we could acquire a physical temple (redundant). Obviously I'd like staff, so that would lead to an organisational/hjierarchical structure being put in place (utter perversion of the NT relationship basis of worship),

I'd have to wear some weird kit. Dog collar anyone? Or worse still, fry my hair! Adopt some ecumenically profound title (Apolstolic-Prophet to the Futhermost galaxies  ) and camp out in the OT.

But the worst thing is I'd have to scrap my personal encounter with God and assume the role of a mediator (usurping The Lord). Equally tragic is the fact that you'll have to articulate your whole walk through me. So I won't enter in and I won't let you (or any of the others) enter in either.

Please understand.

God bless

TV01:

Back off topic;

I noticed your labelling me as your 1st choice MOG. I'm flattered, must be said. But after long, prayerful and thoughtful reflection (a whole nano second  ), I have to say no. That's not a reflection on you TG, it's me .

If I say yes, I'll have to demand you submit to "my authority" (thorougly unbiblical), always qualify your posts on Nairaland with "MyPas" (My Pastor says), and generally check your God given faculties whenever I speak. We'd have to gather followers (as numbers seem to be one way of legitimising MOGGERY) and start our own shursh (My Church), As if there is more than one? Of course in due time I'd delegate some small anointing/responsibility to you (My Ministry).

Of course, I'll have to finance this title and the empire that goes with it, so I might have to join the tithing and enforced offering brigade (not biblical). I'd like a plush office, necessitating a building fund so we could acquire a physical temple (redundant). Obviously I'd like staff, so that would lead to an organisational/hjierarchical structure being put in place (utter perversion of the NT relationship basis of worship),

I'd have to wear some weird kit. Dog collar anyone? Or worse still, fry my hair! Adopt some ecumenically profound title (Apolstolic-Prophet to the Futhermost galaxies  ) and camp out in the OT.

But the worst thing is I'd have to scrap my personal encounter with God and assume the role of a mediator (usurping The Lord). Equally tragic is the fact that you'll have to articulate your whole walk through me. So I won't enter in and I won't let you (or any of the others) enter in either.

Please understand.

God bless

Lol!! TV I am in the office here laughing so hard my colleagues are wondering what is the matter with me.  
You're just too funny!

But you forgot one thing.  As my MOG you have to endorse every decision I make in my personal life before I make it.
I can do nothing without your ecumenical counsel. _*sigh*

Check my profile and hit me up on Yahoo please. I want to talk to you.  

On topic now:

I can see you're confused.  You keep intermingling the definition of fornication with marriage.  We started to talk about what marriage is and when it starts on this thread, but it was offtopic.  

In any case, you're alluding that sex between a man and a woman in a relationship is ILLICIT sex, and it is not.
ILLICIT means unnatural and disallowed, and it has nothing to do with whether it's before or after marriage.

Unnatural is other types of sex, like homosexuality etc.

You're going around in circles. That's understandable.  This topic is beyond you, being a nigerian christian and all.  
I know how strict nigerians are about sexual matters, and I commend your efforts anyways.  

Hi TG,

On-topic;

Okay, I'll ask you this and then leave it for now. Is sex outside marriage biblically sanctioned? Can you show it with references from the scriptures?

Off-topic;

I can't access my non-work e-mail right now and I'm catching a flight later today. I'll try and contact you via e-mail by late next week. Apologies, it's just so frenzied right now.

God bless.

TV01:

Hi TG,

On-topic;

Okay, I'll ask you this and then leave it for now. Is sex outside marriage biblically sanctioned? Can you show it with references from the scriptures?

Is sex outside marriage between a man and woman in a long term, monogamous committed relationship NOT biblically sanctioned? Can you show it with references from the scriptures?

TV01:

Off-topic;

I can't access my non-work e-mail right now and I'm catching a flight later today. I'll try and contact you via e-mail by late next week. Apologies, it's just so frenzied right now.

God bless.

You're leaving for a whole week
Ok, looking forward to your email then.

i'm really enjoying this,
fact remains, for now at least, trini u didnt answer the last question TV asked, instead u asked another question,
we are all nigerians, i know, but answer the question!!


what i forsee now is that once u guys email urselves, the thread might jus die, which will really be sad!!,

i no know book oo, but always willing to learn.

Hmm why wont we just open Nairaland church?People shld stop arguing when something is clear for dem to see.

9ja4eva:

People shld stop arguing when something is clear for them to see.

And people should shut up when they have nothing of substance to say.

Never allow your mind to guide you but let the spirit do.

Fornication is sexual immorality with two unlegally married people.

You must be born again to appreciate this fact.

Jesus is Lord no Controversy.

dafidixone:

Never allow your mind to guide you but let the spirit do.

Fornication is sexual immorality with two unlegally married people.

You must be born again to appreciate this fact.

Jesus is Lord no Controversy.

did you even bother to read anything on this thread or on this page for that matter?
I assume you meant "illegally" married. What in the world is 'illegal marriage' between a man and a woman? Please define.

I tink wat d poster meant is people not married legally.

trini, u still havent answered the question TV asked,

Trini, ur interpretation of pre-marital sex is really annoyin'. sorry 2 say. I know d world 2day is full of immoralities. Even in d church, people who claim 2 b christains do it. But because everybody does it doesn't make it rait! according 2 wat was written in exodus 20, i feel it's a sin, as 4 many people dt believes it's not, i think dey've not been genuinely saved

Lalas:

trini, u still havent answered the question TV asked,

Leave Sis' TG 0! She don carry go ! In understanding or expounding the gospel, big grammer and complicated lingo are not required. Complicated definitions, new-fangled word-usage, grammatical re-engineering and the like will not change the basic meaning of scripture.

TG you have outlined a poor facsimile of marriage, with all but the covenant vows that seal it.

Is sex outside marriage between a man and woman in a long term, monogamous committed relationship NOT biblically sanctioned? Can you show it with references from the scriptures?

Usng the phrase "Long-Term" is to blur and dilute the true import. It leaves too many unanswered questions and gaps that charlatans can slip through. Even cursory scrutiny shows that it lacks so much. Even the obvious questions are myriad; How long is long-term, what constitutes a commitment, under what circumstances can it be voided, and so on and so forth.

Scripturally let me say this

=> There are only three types of Biblically sanctioned relationships a man can have with a women (both believers), Mother, Sister & Wife. Full stop (I'm not digressing to things like co-worker, classmate etc).

=> Note the lady by the Well. The Lord said to her "And the one you have now is not your husband". She could have insisted that the relationship met TG's criteria, and maybe it did. But it fell woefully short of the Holy Writ. He's your Father, Brother or Husband.

=> Even if you are betrothed as Joseph & Mary were, you are not yet permitted to come together. A betrothal fulfills your criteria, but does not allow sexual intimacy until the marriage covenant is cut. There is no grey area on this point. It's very open and shut.

Hope you are well. I shall contact you as soon as I am able.

God bless.

@busygirl

You have not seen anything yet. Wait till you see when they begin to have sex in Church on the stages. And they will call it "practical Christianity"

Shei you say that some people are Extreme Just wait and see.

Chai_{Rolling on the floor laughing}